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Old 13th June 2018, 08:52 AM   #721
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
(Will respond to your longer post when on laptop, on cel now)

I'm not sure it is entirely fair to characterize him as having a generally deceptive nature based on a couple things. Generally, he seems at least direct and honest.
Uhhh... no, he doesn't.

In Assange you have an individual who promised he would avoid commenting about the political affairs of other countries while at the embassy... then broke that promise by posting about Catalyn independence. That shows that either he was lying, or that his 'promises' don't really mean anything.

From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ng-separatists
...he (Assange) had breached an agreement at the end of last year not to issue messages that might interfere with other states.

You have an individual who, as a "houseguest" of the Ecuadorian embassy, was accessing things that he did not have the right to access. (It got to the point where embassy staff had to keep their personal information in a locked safe because they couldn't trust Assange.)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nwelcome-guest

You have an individual who (in theory) wants to open up the world and get rid of secrets, yet supposedly runs WikiLeaks in an extremely non-transparent manner. (For example, he expects people to sign draconian non-disclosure agreements.) Looks a bit hypocritical to me.

https://www.wired.com/2011/05/nda-wikileaks/

You have an individual who, when some in-redacted WikiLeaks data was given to a Putin ally (which was used to target dissidents), failed to investigate. Plus the organization published information giving the names of Afghan citizens and sexual assault victims in Saudi Arabia, which put their lives in risk. This shows a general lack of empathy to those harmed by the actions of WikiLeaks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7206901.html

And, just to remind you, the main reason he is in the embassy is because Assange didn't respect the wishes of some of the women he was having sex with.

All this does not paint a portrait of someone who is "direct and honest". Instead, it paints a portrait of a egotistical narcissist who believes that the rules of society do not apply to him. Now, perhaps a case could be made for the need for organizations like WikiLeaks. But that doesn't mean that Assange should be seen as a decent individual.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:59 AM   #722
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And, let's not forget, convinced a load of mates to put up his bail money because he was such an honest bloke and then did a bunk.
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Old 14th June 2018, 05:50 AM   #723
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Uhhh... no, he doesn't.

In Assange you have an individual who promised he would avoid commenting about the political affairs of other countries while at the embassy... then broke that promise by posting about Catalyn independence. That shows that either he was lying, or that his 'promises' don't really mean anything.

From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ng-separatists
...he (Assange) had breached an agreement at the end of last year not to issue messages that might interfere with other states.

You have an individual who, as a "houseguest" of the Ecuadorian embassy, was accessing things that he did not have the right to access. (It got to the point where embassy staff had to keep their personal information in a locked safe because they couldn't trust Assange.)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nwelcome-guest

You have an individual who (in theory) wants to open up the world and get rid of secrets, yet supposedly runs WikiLeaks in an extremely non-transparent manner. (For example, he expects people to sign draconian non-disclosure agreements.) Looks a bit hypocritical to me.

https://www.wired.com/2011/05/nda-wikileaks/

You have an individual who, when some in-redacted WikiLeaks data was given to a Putin ally (which was used to target dissidents), failed to investigate. Plus the organization published information giving the names of Afghan citizens and sexual assault victims in Saudi Arabia, which put their lives in risk. This shows a general lack of empathy to those harmed by the actions of WikiLeaks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7206901.html

And, just to remind you, the main reason he is in the embassy is because Assange didn't respect the wishes of some of the women he was having sex with.

All this does not paint a portrait of someone who is "direct and honest". Instead, it paints a portrait of a egotistical narcissist who believes that the rules of society do not apply to him.
From your first example to the last, you are spinning the facts again, but I suppose we could do this endlessly. I hope we can agree to disagree.

Quote:
Now, perhaps a case could be made for the need for organizations like WikiLeaks. But that doesn't mean that Assange should be seen as a decent individual.
This is my only real reason in supporting Assange. We do need WL, or at least an alternative. The declared mission of Wikileaks is too potentially valuable to be disabled by this sideshow.
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Old 14th June 2018, 06:20 AM   #724
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And, let's not forget, convinced a load of mates to put up his bail money because he was such an honest bloke and then did a bunk.
And yet they still support him. I recall reading that WL cleared the plan to jump bail and the backers agreed.

FWIW, I agree that he kind of sucks as a person, contrived narratives aside.
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Old 14th June 2018, 06:49 AM   #725
Tolls
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And yet they still support him. I recall reading that WL cleared the plan to jump bail and the backers agreed.

FWIW, I agree that he kind of sucks as a person, contrived narratives aside.
Well, you might need to link to that as I recall at least a couple of them expressing surprise that he'd done a runner.
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Old 14th June 2018, 07:47 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Well, you might need to link to that as I recall at least a couple of them expressing surprise that he'd done a runner.
You're right, the article I read said that the backers were advised that the surety was in jeapordy when they guaranteed it, but that is boilerplate language. Some backers presented themselves to the court, ready to pay, and others contested and requested reductions.

Yeah, I'll concede that Assange is cowardly, playing games to avoid facing the Swedish charges (though I do think they are trumped up to some degree). He should face Swedish courts and state his defense, in the interests of all involved, including the rights of the women. If the US pulled a fast one while in Sweden, that's a battle he should face on its own time.
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Old 14th June 2018, 09:16 AM   #727
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From your first example to the last, you are spinning the facts again, but I suppose we could do this endlessly.
I stated the facts.

Do you have any proof that what I posted is wrong? That WikiLeaks (the organization that wants to end secrecy) requires draconian non-disclosure agreements? Do you have any proof that WikiLeaks didn't post personal details of homosexuals in Saudi Arabia? That Assange didn't break an agreement he made to stop interfering with other countries?

And assuming everything I wrote is correct, do you think those activities can be considered the actions of someone who is "direct and honest"?

Or are we going to be subjected to some mighty hand-wave to dismiss any and all evidence that perhaps Assange isn't really "direct and honest"?
Quote:
Re: The need for WikiLeaks

This is my only real reason in supporting Assange.
Except of course you made the statement that Assange was "direct and honest". Which, as I have pointed out, is definitely not the case.

Had you said earlier "Assange is probably a liar and scumbag but he provides a net benefit" then you might have a leg to stand on. But YOU made the claim that he was likely "direct and honest".
Quote:
We do need WL, or at least an alternative.
Actually we do have alternatives... There are other similar services that publish leaked documents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Spin-offs

We also have, you know, the media (Newspapers, Television, etc.). You know, the people that have released things like the Panama papers (initially from a German Newspaper). And it should be pointed out that Snowden released his information through outlets like the Guardian. So if WikiLeaks did not exist, much/most of the information would probably end up being made public anyways through other channels.

Of course, the problem is, the mainstream media is less likely to release information that will get innocent people killed (you know, like WikiLeaks does). But you have no moral problem with innocent people getting killed, right? After all, it doesn't seem to bother "direct and honest" Assange.
Quote:
The declared mission of WikiLeaks...
That's the issue now, isn't it...

The 'declared' mission is to get rid of secrets. The ACTUAL mission seems to be "try to harm the U.S. and cozy up to Russia". Unfortunately you seem to hand-wave that away.
Quote:
...is too potentially valuable to be disabled by this sideshow.
Keep in mind that the "sideshow" is basically because WikiLeaks has turned into the Julian Assange show. And when you build an organization around an individual with such a shaky moral foundation and such a YUGE amount of ego, you're going to run into problems.

Also, Keep in mind that I'm not the only one stating that there are problems with the way WikiLeaks is being run. A lot of former insiders are saying the same thing. Daniel Domscheit-Berg had been involved with WikiLeaks for several years but left because, well, Assange was making everything about him and the U.S. "This one-dimensional confrontation with the USA is not what we set out to do". And supposedly over a dozen people have left WikiLeaks for various reasons, including a lack of Transparency, and an infatuation with the U.S. to the point where other stories are getting ignored. (And remember, that's from INSIDERS within WikiLeaks, not from me just stating my own personal opinion.)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...s-2115637.html
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Old 14th June 2018, 09:50 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's fair. But isn't it also, how did you put it, 'talking about his thoughts and feelings as if they weren't a fiction you created'?
The way I see it, he's made claims about his thoughts and feelings. As you put it, "communications he has put out to establish his state of mind".

You've accepted these claims and internalized them as a construct that you believe truthfully describes his thoughts and feelings. Then you use this construct as evidence to explain his actions.

I think a more rational approach is to take the claims as claims, and take the observed actions as evidence that does or does not support the claims.

You say his flight to the UK makes sense if we assume his claims about his state of mind are true.

I say his flight to the UK gives us insight into what his true state of mind really is.

tl,dr; Actions speak louder than words.
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:10 PM   #729
Thermal
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I guess we're not going to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I stated the facts.

Do you have any proof that what I posted is wrong?
I didn't say you were wrong. I said you were spinning the facts. Asking (in bold) for proof that you were wrong is a great example of spin. But whatever. One by one:

Quote:
That WikiLeaks (the organization that wants to end secrecy) requires draconian non-disclosure agreements?
The link you supplied to support this does not have this 'draconian' agreement attached (goes 404). Thanks, that was helpful. Based on the $20mil penalty, I assume the actual agreement was the well-publicized 12mil pounds sterling penalty-carrying non-disclosure agreement (the exchange rate for the time seems about right) that Wikileaks staff had to sign. Why? So a staffer wouldn't grab a juicy leak and run with it themselves. You find that unreasonable, given the potentially world-altering information they are dealing with? I think it is a reasonable condition to require. Strike one.

Quote:
Do you have any proof that WikiLeaks didn't post personal details of homosexuals in Saudi Arabia?
Homosexuals, plural? No, they failed to redact the personal info of one man who had been arrested in Saudi Arabia for being gay. And two rape victims, and a bunch of other less dramatic un-redacteds. That is sloppy redacting on the part of WL staff, even out of hundreds of thousands of docs. That does not indicate anything but the occasional mistake that can happen, unfortunately. Strike two.

Quote:
That Assange didn't break an agreement he made to stop interfering with other countries?
The Ecuadorian Embassy and Assange agreed that he would not issue comments that would interfere with other states. The horrifically dishonest tweet you refer to is in full as follows, from your own link:

"What is occurring in Catalonia is the redefinition of the relationship between people and state. The most disciplined Ghandian project since Ghandi. It's results will spread everywhere."

That is 'interfering with other countries' (your words, above)? Strike three.

Quote:
And assuming everything I wrote is correct, do you think those activities can be considered the actions of someone who is "direct and honest"?

Or are we going to be subjected to some mighty hand-wave to dismiss any and all evidence that perhaps Assange isn't really "direct and honest"?

Except of course you made the statement that Assange was "direct and honest". Which, as I have pointed out, is definitely not the case.

Had you said earlier "Assange is probably a liar and scumbag but he provides a net benefit" then you might have a leg to stand on. But YOU made the claim that he was likely "direct and honest".
As you may note, you have not demonstrated indirectness or dishonesty. Not even in the Catalonia tweet. Also, I said he was generally at least direct and honest. That does not mean he is not narcissistic, or wrong, or paranoid, or anything else. His work with Wikileaks I do find to be generally direct and honest, if currently misguided. WL has a stellar track record for not having to issue retractions for giving out false information, for example. Better than any other major publisher.

Quote:
Actually we do have alternatives... There are other similar services that publish leaked documents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Spin-offs
Yes. I know. Heard anything substantial from any of these alternatives? Didn't think so. An alternative needs to actually, you know, deliver something. I actually had high hopes for OpenLeaks. Danny D-S has done squat.

Quote:
We also have, you know, the media (Newspapers, Television, etc.). You know, the people that have released things like the Panama papers (initially from a German Newspaper). And it should be pointed out that Snowden released his information through outlets like the Guardian. So if WikiLeaks did not exist, much/most of the information would probably end up being made public anyways through other channels.
Yes. Obviously. But a WL platform is (in theory) unique in not being owned by a corporation who might exercise a little editorial control, or have a bias. Yes, Assange has created a bias within. I am also concerned about an additional, and uncontrollable, bias from without, such as a parent company with a vested interest in leaked material.

Quote:
Of course, the problem is, the mainstream media is less likely to release information that will get innocent people killed (you know, like WikiLeaks does). But you have no moral problem with innocent people getting killed, right? After all, it doesn't seem to bother "direct and honest" Assange.
Not only a dead lie, but an unnecessarily personal one.

Quote:
That's the issue now, isn't it...

The 'declared' mission is to get rid of secrets. The ACTUAL mission seems to be "try to harm the U.S. and cozy up to Russia". Unfortunately you seem to hand-wave that away.
Ignore your personal opinion? Yeah, after the last one you just ventured I am quite comfortable with that.

Quote:
Keep in mind that the "sideshow" is basically because WikiLeaks has turned into the Julian Assange show. And when you build an organization around an individual with such a shaky moral foundation and such a YUGE amount of ego, you're going to run into problems.

Also, Keep in mind that I'm not the only one stating that there are problems with the way WikiLeaks is being run. A lot of former insiders are saying the same thing. Daniel Domscheit-Berg had been involved with WikiLeaks for several years but left because, well, Assange was making everything about him and the U.S. "This one-dimensional confrontation with the USA is not what we set out to do". And supposedly over a dozen people have left WikiLeaks for various reasons, including a lack of Transparency, and an infatuation with the U.S. to the point where other stories are getting ignored. (And remember, that's from INSIDERS within WikiLeaks, not from me just stating my own personal opinion.)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...s-2115637.html
Yes. I know. As I said earlier, I had high hopes for D D-S and OpenLeaks. But they, and the other wondrous alternatives, are doing nothing. Much like my country, the USA, has a ton of problems, large and small, and I still want to see it succeed because of the promise it holds. Kind of a Trump/Assange US/WL analogy. You could argue that another country would do what the US does. But they are not, currently. For better or worse, they are both what is on the table, and I want badly to see them sort out their issues and get to work.
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:35 PM   #730
Thermal
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The way I see it, he's made claims about his thoughts and feelings. As you put it, "communications he has put out to establish his state of mind".

You've accepted these claims and internalized them as a construct that you believe truthfully describes his thoughts and feelings. Then you use this construct as evidence to explain his actions.

I think a more rational approach is to take the claims as claims, and take the observed actions as evidence that does or does not support the claims.

You say his flight to the UK makes sense if we assume his claims about his state of mind are true.

I say his flight to the UK gives us insight into what his true state of mind really is.

tl,dr; Actions speak louder than words.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I am doing. His claims are, I think, supported by evidence.

Take for example his 'flight' from Sweden. He had his lawyer inquire in writing if Assange was free to leave the country, per his plans. Sweden affirmed, in writing, that he was free to go. Assange first tried to arrange the secondary interview with Ny (the prosecutor) before he departed (she said at this time that he was 'not a wanted man'). Ny didn't feel well, then there was a Sunday, and after Sweden got around to scheduling the questioning, Assange's lawyer couldn't get a hold of him (he led a kind of nomadic life at the time) and the EAW was issued almost immediately.

I think the claim that he did not 'flee' Sweden is supported by the evidence. I am again linking the Agreed Facts from the UK Supreme Court as the source of these facts. I trust you find that credible?

You, on the other hand, decide he fled in advance and interpret the narrative from there. Why?

https://www.scribd.com/document/8091...s-Assange-Case

eta: or did you mean 'flight' in terms of taking an airplane?
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Old 17th June 2018, 03:02 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Uhhh... no, he doesn't.

In Assange you have an individual who promised he would avoid commenting about the political affairs of other countries while at the embassy... then broke that promise by posting about Catalyn independence. That shows that either he was lying, or that his 'promises' don't really mean anything.

From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ng-separatists
...he (Assange) had breached an agreement at the end of last year not to issue messages that might interfere with other states.

You have an individual who, as a "houseguest" of the Ecuadorian embassy, was accessing things that he did not have the right to access. (It got to the point where embassy staff had to keep their personal information in a locked safe because they couldn't trust Assange.)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nwelcome-guest

You have an individual who (in theory) wants to open up the world and get rid of secrets, yet supposedly runs WikiLeaks in an extremely non-transparent manner. (For example, he expects people to sign draconian non-disclosure agreements.) Looks a bit hypocritical to me.

https://www.wired.com/2011/05/nda-wikileaks/

You have an individual who, when some in-redacted WikiLeaks data was given to a Putin ally (which was used to target dissidents), failed to investigate. Plus the organization published information giving the names of Afghan citizens and sexual assault victims in Saudi Arabia, which put their lives in risk. This shows a general lack of empathy to those harmed by the actions of WikiLeaks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7206901.html

And, just to remind you, the main reason he is in the embassy is because Assange didn't respect the wishes of some of the women he was having sex with.

All this does not paint a portrait of someone who is "direct and honest". Instead, it paints a portrait of a egotistical narcissist who believes that the rules of society do not apply to him. Now, perhaps a case could be made for the need for organizations like WikiLeaks. But that doesn't mean that Assange should be seen as a decent individual.
Who looks to The Guardian newspaper for reliable, unbiased information about Wikileaks and Julian Assange?
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