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Old 30th March 2019, 11:22 PM   #1
Brainster
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What Really Happened With Seigfried and Roy and the Tiger

Thought this account by one of the animal handlers was pretty interesting:

Quote:
Out of positive-reinforcement options, Lawrence decided to grab Mantacore's leash, which was only about 10 inches long and hung to the side of his collar. At that point Horn backed up. The retreat inspired Mantacore to leap at him, swinging at his legs and knocking the illusionist to the stage floor. The cat also pulled Lawrence, who tumbled first onto Mantacore's back, then rolled off onto the ground beside him. "I vividly remember thinking, 'Here he comes,' and I experienced all of the things that you hear about prior to your death," says Lawrence. "It was very deceiving because it could've only lasted a few seconds but it seemed like an eternity. I remember experiencing a crippling guilt over the thought that I was going to be leaving my children without a father and cause them unimaginable pain that they were too young to understand."

Mantacore, though, had no interest in Lawrence. He was zeroed in on Horn. The cat climbed onto Horn's upper body and bit the right side of his neck. Lawrence got up, attempting to hold the tiger back by his neck, to no avail. Soon Mantacore was up on all fours, with Horn in his mouth. Lawrence lost his grip and found himself trailing behind the tiger and his boss' motionless body as the cat dragged him offstage. Lawrence yelled for someone to discharge a fire extinguisher, thinking the loud distraction would break Mantacore's focus and that he might release Horn from his grip.
This contrasts with the official story that Horn (Roy) had a stroke onstage and the tiger dragged him away in some sort of protective instinct. According to the article, Horn had the stroke as a result of the attack.

I have followed this story over the years mostly because I actually got to see their act around 1995 and was blown away by how terrific it was.
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Last edited by Brainster; 30th March 2019 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 31st March 2019, 01:47 AM   #2
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I remember that the "stroke" story was laughed at and debunked almost as soon as it was released to the public.
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Old 31st March 2019, 06:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
What Really Happened With Seigfried and Roy and the Tiger
He chose the wrong door.
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:23 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I have followed this story over the years mostly because I actually got to see their act around 1995 and was blown away by how terrific it was.
Well then did you notice that the name of the tiger has changed over the years? Putting that weirdness aside, this Lawrence guy might be creating new fictions and trying to make himself famous.

What do eyewitness audience testimonies (reports) say about a guy (Lawrence) trying to pull the tiger off of Horn?
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:47 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Well then did you notice that the name of the tiger has changed over the years? Putting that weirdness aside, this Lawrence guy might be creating new fictions and trying to make himself famous.

What do eyewitness audience testimonies (reports) say about a guy (Lawrence) trying to pull the tiger off of Horn?
yeah. just this here gave me pause:

Quote:
I remember experiencing a crippling guilt over the thought that I was going to be leaving my children without a father and cause them unimaginable pain that they were too young to understand.
I'd think your only thought would be "how do I get the f out of here". his statement seems over-the-top dramatic.
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:18 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
...
I'd think your only thought would be "how do I get the f out of here"...
On this forum that's called "a testable hypothesis".
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:23 AM   #7
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What we need to do is use the Wayback Machine to look at eyewitness reports. Those should be close to what Lawrence says. In order for this guy to be credible, people need to have seen him right there in the action. First falling on the tiger's back as it lunges for Horn, then trying to pull it off Horn as it bites his neck.

Was there ever any video of this attack?
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Old 31st March 2019, 12:02 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What we need to do is use the Wayback Machine to look at eyewitness reports. Those should be close to what Lawrence says. In order for this guy to be credible, people need to have seen him right there in the action. First falling on the tiger's back as it lunges for Horn, then trying to pull it off Horn as it bites his neck.

Was there ever any video of this attack?
this video, at least, tells a vastly different story with witness accounts:


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Old 31st March 2019, 01:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
this video, at least, tells a vastly different story with witness accounts:
Yes, very different from what Lawrence is saying. His presence on that stage would have been very odd for the whole production. Roy Horn is supposed to be the tiger handler, not some other guy hanging on to a 10" leash.

I can remember reading about this when it was new and I remember that tiger's name. The name of the tiger back then was Montecore, not Mantacore. This new article says that Montecore was never its name and was instead a reporter error. I'm curious why it was not corrected right away because I don't remember ever seeing the name Mantacore until I opened this thread today.

I don't remember any news story saying that the tiger attacked because Roy had a stroke. Is this a new retro thing? What I remember was a story that some (dramatically appearing or dramatically acting) woman up front caught the eye of the tiger and then he went a bit nuts. Maybe I also remember something about Roy stumbling (in addition to the drama woman seen by the tiger) and then the tiger began attacking him.

I don't remember any news story saying that Roy had a stroke which caused the tiger to attack him.
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Old 1st April 2019, 01:13 PM   #10
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I'm surprised that anyone could expect to physically control a 500-lb tiger, regardless of the length of the leash.
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Old 1st April 2019, 04:12 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm surprised that anyone could expect to physically control a 500-lb tiger, regardless of the length of the leash.
I was present when a tiger was being taken for a stroll outside its enclosure at a zoo. It had a collar and chain but probably only as training reminders. The trainer was very careful and never tried to physically control the creature in any way. Instead he used a bottle of milk as a positive incentive when it was time to get the tiger back in its home. And when the tiger stopped and sat down two or three times on the way back in - we all sat down waited patiently for it to change its mind. Definitely no one was going to "yank its chain."
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Old 7th April 2019, 05:48 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I can remember reading about this when it was new and I remember that tiger's name. The name of the tiger back then was Montecore, not Mantacore. This new article says that Montecore was never its name and was instead a reporter error. I'm curious why it was not corrected right away because I don't remember ever seeing the name Mantacore until I opened this thread today.
Manticore (a mythical beast) would make more sense, but it does not surprise me that the media got the name wrong and never corrected it.

Quote:
I don't remember any news story saying that the tiger attacked because Roy had a stroke. Is this a new retro thing? What I remember was a story that some (dramatically appearing or dramatically acting) woman up front caught the eye of the tiger and then he went a bit nuts. Maybe I also remember something about Roy stumbling (in addition to the drama woman seen by the tiger) and then the tiger began attacking him.

I don't remember any news story saying that Roy had a stroke which caused the tiger to attack him.
Roy himself apparently told People Mag a year after the attack that he had a stroke onstage, and that the tiger saved his life.
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Old 7th April 2019, 06:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Manticore (a mythical beast) would make more sense, but it does not surprise me that the media got the name wrong and never corrected it.
Or that a couple of stage magicians got it wrong and never corrected it. It's ALWAYS spelled that way.

Roy himself apparently told People Mag a year after the attack that he had a stroke onstage, and that the tiger saved his life.[/quote]
And he was severely brain damaged. How on earth would he remember that?
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Old 10th April 2019, 01:48 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm surprised that anyone could expect to physically control a 500-lb tiger, regardless of the length of the leash.
I don't think there's anyone on the planet that could.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:33 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't think there's anyone on the planet that could.
You haven't met my ex wife.
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Old 13th April 2019, 02:12 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Or that a couple of stage magicians got it wrong and never corrected it. It's ALWAYS spelled that way.

Roy himself apparently told People Mag a year after the attack that he had a stroke onstage, and that the tiger saved his life.
And he was severely brain damaged. How on earth would he remember that?
I don't think he did, I think it's some BS he made up so that the authorities wouldn't euthanize the tiger.
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Old 13th April 2019, 02:44 PM   #17
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Agreed.
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Old 14th April 2019, 05:49 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I don't think he did, I think it's some BS he they made up so that the authorities wouldn't euthanize the tiger.

FTFY... Those tigers are huge assets and damned expensive. S&R and they casino management and their insurers were protecting their asses financially. And I can remember the first in this lineage, Gunther Gebel-Williams in an interview with Carson saying he'd had like a trillion stitches in one arm from one of his tigers during a live performance. When Carson or another guest made a joke about the tiger probably now being a lovely rug in his living room, G-W seriously said, "No. Why would I do that. I took my attention off of her for a minute to soak in the applause and I know I'm not supposed to do that. It was my fault."

Performing on stage is not natural behavior for a cat. If I taught my orange tabby to do tricks and didn't pay the utmost attention to her, she'd be going for various soft tissue areas. With one of the big cats, you have to calculate the same risk. Have a couple of fall-back behaviors that you know they'll do if they won't do the Big Ticket Item and if they're not in the mood, don't think you're going to cajole or threaten them into it. If you're lucky, they'll just sit down and stare at you. If you're not lucky you become an object lesson.
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Old 14th April 2019, 06:31 AM   #19
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I still think it was a mistake to give the tigers guns.
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Old 14th April 2019, 09:41 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
FTFY... Those tigers are huge assets and damned expensive. S&R and they casino management and their insurers were protecting their asses financially. And I can remember the first in this lineage, Gunther Gebel-Williams in an interview with Carson saying he'd had like a trillion stitches in one arm from one of his tigers during a live performance. When Carson or another guest made a joke about the tiger probably now being a lovely rug in his living room, G-W seriously said, "No. Why would I do that. I took my attention off of her for a minute to soak in the applause and I know I'm not supposed to do that. It was my fault."

Performing on stage is not natural behavior for a cat. If I taught my orange tabby to do tricks and didn't pay the utmost attention to her, she'd be going for various soft tissue areas. With one of the big cats, you have to calculate the same risk. Have a couple of fall-back behaviors that you know they'll do if they won't do the Big Ticket Item and if they're not in the mood, don't think you're going to cajole or threaten them into it. If you're lucky, they'll just sit down and stare at you. If you're not lucky you become an object lesson.
I like to think that the human performers also have true affection for their animals and wish to protect them for this reason too. It probably is impossible to work with these creatures without developing enormous respect and sincere emotional connectivity with them. And as suggested, attacks are not "their fault." They are just being tigers. Why destroy them for being such?

The trainer/performer is attempting to work within the animals instincts to generate an exciting act. If the human goes on with an act under the wrong circumstances, misreads the signals, does a wrong move (even if subtle), or simply is unlucky that is not an indictment of the animal. Even though different animals differ in their "personalities" it is still the performer's responsibility to work within the constraints of each animal's personality or not use that particular animal in the act.

Seeking revenge on an animal for an attack seems stupid and evil to me.
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Old 19th April 2019, 11:24 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I like to think that the human performers also have true affection for their animals and wish to protect them for this reason too. It probably is impossible to work with these creatures without developing enormous respect and sincere emotional connectivity with them. And as suggested, attacks are not "their fault." They are just being tigers. Why destroy them for being such?

The trainer/performer is attempting to work within the animals instincts to generate an exciting act. If the human goes on with an act under the wrong circumstances, misreads the signals, does a wrong move (even if subtle), or simply is unlucky that is not an indictment of the animal. Even though different animals differ in their "personalities" it is still the performer's responsibility to work within the constraints of each animal's personality or not use that particular animal in the act.

Seeking revenge on an animal for an attack seems stupid and evil to me.
Animals that are already in cages, maybe. But we certainly kill (if we can find) any wild animal that kills a human, because the concern is that particular animal now sees humans as potential prey.
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:17 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Animals that are already in cages, maybe. But we certainly kill (if we can find) any wild animal that kills a human, because the concern is that particular animal now sees humans as potential prey.
What if it's a herbivore? We're going to Yellowstone this summer. Elk and bison are probably a more likely threat than bears or wolves.
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Old 21st April 2019, 04:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I still think it was a mistake to give the tigers guns.
True!! Hand grenades are much more sure!!!!
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Old 21st April 2019, 04:06 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
What if it's a herbivore? We're going to Yellowstone this summer. Elk and bison are probably a more likely threat than bears or wolves.
Last time I was there, an idiot tried to put his 4-5 year old son on one of the bisons. Fortunately the look on my and my wife's faces made him reconsider.
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Old 25th April 2019, 10:20 AM   #25
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This incident from a couple of days ago made me think of this thread:

https://nypost.com/2019/04/25/tiger-...ife-sanctuary/

Quote:
Jonathan Kraft, 73, a former Las Vegas illusionist who serves as the executive director of the Keepers of the Wild Nature Park in Valentine, suffered multiple wounds and two broken bones when the 11-year-old tiger, Bowie, suddenly snatched him and gripped him with his strong teeth Monday, the sanctuary said in a statement.
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Old 30th April 2019, 11:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
What if it's a herbivore? We're going to Yellowstone this summer. Elk and bison are probably a more likely threat than bears or wolves.
Elk are not terribly dangerous, but they have been known to attack people who approached too closely. Moose, OTOH, like bison, can be quite dangerous. Also, there are a lot more herbivores (especially bison) around in Yellowstone than there are bears. IME, on a visit to Yellowstone, you will without question see bison, lots of them, you are fairly likely to see elk, moose or deer, and, if you're really lucky, you might see a bear (black more likely than grizzly) or a wolf.
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Old 2nd May 2019, 10:27 AM   #27
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This will be our third visit in four years. We've seen bears (and been in the resulting traffic jams) both of the last two trips. And lots of bison and elk. Unfortunately we've not seen a moose on those trips, although we had in the past. In one case my wife glanced out the window of our cabin and there was a moose looking in. I missed that by being in the shower.
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Old 15th June 2019, 10:24 PM   #28
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In this interview from 2014 Roy repeats the fairly unbelievable story that the tiger purposely bit his neck to relieve blood pressure thereby mitigating the effects of a stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU_d7O8dWww
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Old 19th July 2019, 01:19 PM   #29
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Then there was the "So Not Siegried and Roy" scene in "Casino"...
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