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Old 16th March 2019, 12:59 PM   #2081
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It/they might try, but would have a hard time standing up to First Amendment challenge.
.
Not like that would stop them from trying.
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Old 16th March 2019, 01:01 PM   #2082
dann
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
DeKalb County in Georgia, forbidden by state law from removing a Confederate monument in its town center, has decided to install a marker in front of it, adding factual context:

Quote:
“In 1908, this monument was erected at the DeKalb County Courthouse to glorify the ‘lost cause’ of the Confederacy and the Confederate soldiers who fought for it. It was privately funded by the A. Evans Camp of Confederate Veterans and the Agnes Lee Chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Located in a prominent public space, its presence bolstered white supremacy and faulty history, suggesting that the cause for the Civil War rested on southern Honor and States Rights rhetoric—instead of its real catalyst—American slavery. This monument and similar ones also were created to intimidate African Americans and limit their full participation in social and political life of their communities. It fostered a culture of segregation by implying that public spaces and public memory belonged to Whites. Since State law prohibited local governments from removing Confederate statues, DeKalb County contextualized this monument in 2019. DeKalb County officials and citizens believe that public history can be of service when it challenges us to broaden our sense of boundaries and includes community discussions of the victories and shortcomings of our shared histories.”

Great text! Very educational. And I see no reason why it should be limited to Confederate monuments.
When I visited the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in DC, "2-acre (8,093.71 m²)", the guide couldn't answer my question about how many acres it would have required to include the names of the Vietnamese casualties. Considering that it's a memorial for people who lost their lives in a war that the USA and its allies lost in spite of killing hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, at least a marker with that kind of information would seem to be appropriate.
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Old 16th March 2019, 01:11 PM   #2083
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I like that DeKalb solution. I'm guessing that preventing it would open up a can of worms, preventing other new monuments as well, or requiring a first-amendment busting pre-approval process. I think that contextualizing such monuments is superior to simply whisking them away. It names names and makes the private and partisan authorship of the monuments more obvious. The defenders of Confederate lore may well come to regret that they forced people forever to think about their lies instead of letting them slink quietly off.
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Old 16th March 2019, 01:15 PM   #2084
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I’m curious if some Lost causer tries to vandalize the sign in the coming months.
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Old 16th March 2019, 01:35 PM   #2085
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I would like to see the statues preserved for future generations in some museum one day.

It is part of American history and all we need is a mature way of looking at them. Not with ideology or a bias/regret to what could have been. Much like we look at Roman sculpture now.

The past is the past and we need to look forward and act in a way to prevent the errors of the past.
For that we need to remember it as it truly happened. No editing or rewrites to make us feel better now.
I doubt we as humans can do that now but it's something to work towards.

Last edited by 8enotto; 16th March 2019 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:37 PM   #2086
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
The past is the past and we need to look forward and act in a way to prevent the errors of the past.
For that we need to remember it as it truly happened. No editing or rewrites to make us feel better now.
The monuments and the purple captions about "honor" and "duty" that adorn them represent just such an edit or rewrite. Efforts like DeKalb's, combat this historical revisionism and tell the cold truth that the romanticized statues were created to hide.
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Old 16th March 2019, 04:39 PM   #2087
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Okay what words in what sequence have to be said to drag the Confederate apologists kicking and screaming out of this whole "Taking down statues is erasing history" nonsense?
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 16th March 2019 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:15 PM   #2088
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I'd like a few statues of glorious Confederate leaders shortly after meeting Dudalb's avatar
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:43 PM   #2089
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I would like to see the statues preserved for future generations in some museum one day.

It is part of American history and all we need is a mature way of looking at them. Not with ideology or a bias/regret to what could have been. Much like we look at Roman sculpture now.

The past is the past and we need to look forward and act in a way to prevent the errors of the past.
For that we need to remember it as it truly happened. No editing or rewrites to make us feel better now.
I doubt we as humans can do that now but it's something to work towards.
In that case, place them in a wing of a broader slavery museum, ensuring their inscriptions read as the foul, lying propaganda they are. Perhaps they should come after a walk through that horrifyingly eloquent new Legacy Museum. Make sure that any fictitious inscriptions claiming honor, noble cause, or personal glory ring sickly hollow and disgustingly shameful, heaping ever more condemnation upon those who defend them even now. Deadly, dirty little lies and deadly, dirty little liars who worked so hard in the cowardly shadows to poison history and hide their skulduggery deserve nothing but scorn and a boot to the face. Suffice it, then, that their financiers and fans are not put in stocks, whipped, put in prison camps, worked to death, and spat upon; i.e., live in the flesh the very traditions and heritage they love to defend.
tl;dr: Uh, no.
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:36 PM   #2090
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I’d like to know what museum is going to hold a single one of these monuments, let alone the lot of them. Most history museums have limited space to show actual interesting stuff and limited storage.

Maybe find an old barn somewhere deep in modern lost causer territory and just pile them in. Stack them like cordwood if they don’t fit. Then charge Neo-Confederates $20 to come in and pray at their ancestor worship altars. Don’t leave any explanation plaquards, just let them try o figure out which one was to intimidate black voters in Mobile and which was celebrating white supremacy in Charlotte.

For fun, mix up the heads of the ones of Confederate leaders. See if anyone even notices.
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:51 PM   #2091
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8enotto, while it might seem a good idea to put the monuments in a museum or better yet as Hlafordlaes suggests to put them in a contextual museum, remember that one reason DeKalb has chosen what it has is that the removal of those statues from their public places has been outlawed by the State of Georgia.

I would also add, though, that as the De Kalb statement makes clear, the prominent public placement of the monuments was an important part of their function, not as monuments to the fallen soldiers of the war, but to postwar racism and the lame and shameful apologetics of those who sought to reduce the sting of defeat by injecting the appearance of heroism and holiness to their ongoing hatred. Simply to remove them to a museum, while it has its merits, removes some of the offense they cause, but does little to address their pernicious secondary purpose.

Confederate monuments have long been a conspicuous, intrusive presence in their public places, a painful reminder to the oppressed that their battle was never fully won. Perhaps it's appropriate that they, together with correction, remain conspicuous rather than being hidden away in a back room or courtyard.

It would be nice to think that the historical distance of the Civil War puts its monuments in the same category as those of the ancient Romans, but we see daily evidence that it is not so. The slaves are all dead now, and so are the children of the slaves, but not, perhaps, the grandchildren; and many of us have lived through years of legal segregation, extra-legal discrimination, and though it's become less fashionable, we live still with bigotry and its awful consequences. In simple terms, racism still kills. We can, perhaps, look at the statues of the ancients in the abstract and supply whatever context we desire, but not so the statues of our unending strife.
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Old 17th March 2019, 02:05 AM   #2092
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
8enotto, while it might seem a good idea to put the monuments in a museum or better yet as Hlafordlaes suggests to put them in a contextual museum, remember that one reason DeKalb has chosen what it has is that the removal of those statues from their public places has been outlawed by the State of Georgia.

I would also add, though, that as the De Kalb statement makes clear, the prominent public placement of the monuments was an important part of their function, not as monuments to the fallen soldiers of the war, but to postwar racism and the lame and shameful apologetics of those who sought to reduce the sting of defeat by injecting the appearance of heroism and holiness to their ongoing hatred. Simply to remove them to a museum, while it has its merits, removes some of the offense they cause, but does little to address their pernicious secondary purpose.

Confederate monuments have long been a conspicuous, intrusive presence in their public places, a painful reminder to the oppressed that their battle was never fully won. Perhaps it's appropriate that they, together with correction, remain conspicuous rather than being hidden away in a back room or courtyard.

It would be nice to think that the historical distance of the Civil War puts its monuments in the same category as those of the ancient Romans, but we see daily evidence that it is not so. The slaves are all dead now, and so are the children of the slaves, but not, perhaps, the grandchildren; and many of us have lived through years of legal segregation, extra-legal discrimination, and though it's become less fashionable, we live still with bigotry and its awful consequences. In simple terms, racism still kills. We can, perhaps, look at the statues of the ancients in the abstract and supply whatever context we desire, but not so the statues of our unending strife.
There are people working, who were born into segregation.
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Old 17th March 2019, 02:58 PM   #2093
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I like that DeKalb solution. I'm guessing that preventing it would open up a can of worms, preventing other new monuments as well, or requiring a first-amendment busting pre-approval process. I think that contextualizing such monuments is superior to simply whisking them away. It names names and makes the private and partisan authorship of the monuments more obvious. The defenders of Confederate lore may well come to regret that they forced people forever to think about their lies instead of letting them slink quietly off.

The plaque was inspired by the fact that racist politicians had engineered racist laws which made it impossible to whisk such statues away. It is no coincidence that these statues were erected in front of the halls of law and justice. They were meant to intimidate, and as long as they are still present in such locations they will continue to do so.

The very fact that laws have been passed (recently) specifically as barriers to their removal only emphasizes that.

In a better world, these statues would be replaced by such plaques, and the statues themselves consigned to a less visible location. Hopefully along with similar plaques to accompany them.
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Old 18th March 2019, 02:55 AM   #2094
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I’d like to know what museum is going to hold a single one of these monuments, let alone the lot of them. Most history museums have limited space to show actual interesting stuff and limited storage.
Well Storm King would be able to fit a lot of them, they wouldn't but I am sure somewhere you could buy up some farms and put them in feilds.

https://stormking.org/
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Old 18th March 2019, 02:56 AM   #2095
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There are people working, who were born into segregation.
There is plenty of real segregation now we just got better at pretending it doesn't exist.
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