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Old 9th September 2018, 06:05 PM   #401
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The first time is a good example. Under spoiler to not clog the thread.

My current house was built in 1910 and needed a lot of work before I moved the family in. I camped out onsite to work 16 hr days while the family was inland. So amidst raw framing and piles of plaster, I slept there. My first visitors were three young guys around midnight who probably thought they were checking out an empty, spooky old house. They woke me up and I grabbed an 18" prybar (nasty thing with sharp teeth) and ran at them. Now, here's the difference: I stopped before sinking it in their foreheads, which I was more than ready to do, and did the whole 'who the hell are you' thing. No fatalities, not even a scratch, and I'm not even trained as a cop, as Officer Reaper was. I find my actions reasonable, if a little aggressive. I do not find her actions to be so, and she has been trained to handle such situations.

No, I did not try to 'make myself' threatening. I was very goddammed threatening. But I killed no one. Mostly because I am averse to taking a life. She clearly is not.

Taking your anecdote as a baseline. Would it have been reasonable -had one of those young men been armed, and a renter who had mistakenly tried the wrong door (as you say happens regularly) to shoot the guy who was coming at him brandishing a prybar ?
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Old 9th September 2018, 06:17 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That scenario is considerably more damning.
Where did you read it?
It is in a story linked to earlier in the thread from Dallas' NBC affiliate:

Quote:
A Dallas police officer, who spoke with NBC 5 under the condition of anonymity, said Guyger was assigned to the department's elite Crime Response Team and had just finished a 14-hour shift serving warrants in high-crime areas. When she arrived home, she took the elevator to a floor that was not hers. She then went to what she thought was her door, put the key in and struggled with the lock. Guyger then put down several things she was holding and continued to fight with the key when the resident swung open the door and startled her. Guyger believed Jean, who was wearing only underwear, was an intruder and shot him with her service weapon. It wasn't until police and rescue units began arriving that she realized she was not at her apartment. Once realizing her deadly mistake, she became emotional and fully cooperated with officers, including offering to provide blood samples.
Cops get things wrong a lot, though.

At the newspaper I would have made sure there was a blanket attribution for the entire paragraph. "An officer gave the following account": I never knew if that really protected us, but I felt better doing it as I wanted each sentence to be a statement of fact. If attribution got too clumsy I would use that phrase. But that was in the olden days - 10 years ago. We probably also wouldn't have used an anonymous source to begin with.

I'm really confused about what if anything the cop told Dallas PD.
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Old 9th September 2018, 06:25 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It is in a story linked to earlier in the thread from Dallas' NBC affiliate:



Cops get things wrong a lot, though.

At the newspaper I would have made sure there was a blanket attribution for the entire paragraph. "An officer gave the following account": I never knew if that really protected us, but I felt better doing it as I wanted each sentence to be a statement of fact. If attribution got too clumsy I would use that phrase. But that was in the olden days - 10 years ago. We probably also wouldn't have used an anonymous source to begin with.

I'm really confused about what if anything the cop told Dallas PD.
My mistake. When I originally looked at that link, the last paragraphs either hadn't been added-or did not load. The ones I sought out independently claimed that there was no information yet available regarding how she got the door open. Mea culpa.
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Old 9th September 2018, 06:52 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Taking your anecdote as a baseline. Would it have been reasonable -had one of those young men been armed, and a renter who had mistakenly tried the wrong door (as you say happens regularly) to shoot the guy who was coming at him brandishing a prybar ?
I get where you are going, but the analogy fails. The guys were knowingly trespassing, I think just for kicks or curiosity. They were knowingly doing something wrong, and to get violent would put them more in the wrong, committing a crime while in the process of another.

If a renter would have drawn and fired, that would be equally foolish. When you are floundering around trying to figure out where the hell you are, that is no time to be protecting the presumed homestead. And no, that is not analogous to the cop, because...(drum roll)...she is a cop, trained specifically to handle such situations without freaking out and shooting anything that moves. In theory, anyway. In practice her department may endorse a Kill-em-all protocol, I dunno.

But most significantly: I live in a no-carry state. Either the guys or a lost renter would be a felon for walking around with a gun in the first place, and up for felony murder if anything went south.

Ultimately, the cop does not have the cop-outs available to them that curious kids and lost shoobies have. They are trained professionals who cannot claimed they got scared and executed someone.
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Old 9th September 2018, 06:58 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It is in a story linked to earlier in the thread from Dallas' NBC affiliate:



Cops get things wrong a lot, though.

At the newspaper I would have made sure there was a blanket attribution for the entire paragraph. "An officer gave the following account": I never knew if that really protected us, but I felt better doing it as I wanted each sentence to be a statement of fact. If attribution got too clumsy I would use that phrase. But that was in the olden days - 10 years ago. We probably also wouldn't have used an anonymous source to begin with.

I'm really confused about what if anything the cop told Dallas PD.
So the guy was unarmed, in his jockey shorts? Yeah, that's a 'FREEZE! POLICE!' moment, not a BANG moment. Murder, pure and simple. Scary guys suddenly appear. Cops don't get to kill them for free.
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Old 9th September 2018, 06:58 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I get where you are going, but the analogy fails. The guys were knowingly trespassing, I think just for kicks or curiosity. They were knowingly doing something wrong, and to get violent would put them more in the wrong, committing a crime while in the process of another.

If a renter would have drawn and fired, that would be equally foolish. When you are floundering around trying to figure out where the hell you are, that is no time to be protecting the presumed homestead. And no, that is not analogous to the cop, because...(drum roll)...she is a cop, trained specifically to handle such situations without freaking out and shooting anything that moves. In theory, anyway. In practice her department may endorse a Kill-em-all protocol, I dunno.

But most significantly: I live in a no-carry state. Either the guys or a lost renter would be a felon for walking around with a gun in the first place, and up for felony murder if anything went south.

Ultimately, the cop does not have the cop-outs available to them that curious kids and lost shoobies have. They are trained professionals who cannot claimed they got scared and executed someone.
If someone is coming at you with a prybar, you are not protecting the homestead you are protecting your life.
Doubly excusable if you believe you are at your own front door.

(BTW I am not asserting the victim in the incident of the OP had a prybar- or any other weapon)
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Old 9th September 2018, 06:59 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So the guy was unarmed, in his jockey shorts? Yeah, that's a 'FREEZE! POLICE!' moment, not a BANG moment. Murder, pure and simple. Scary guys suddenly appear. Cops don't get to kill them for free.
"Freeze Police"? From 3 feet away?

Backing away quickly seems more reasonable. I am wondering if the victim was found in the hall, or in the apartment.
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Old 9th September 2018, 07:05 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If someone is coming at you with a prybar, you are not protecting the homestead you are protecting your life.
Doubly excusable if you believe you are at your own front door.

(BTW I am not asserting the victim in the incident of the OP had a prybar- or any other weapon)
Yeah. Seems he was in his tidy whiteys. These kind of details are game changers, not trivialities.

If he put her in imminent fear of death, she was justified in self-defense, even though she was in the wrong crib. That would be a tragic mistake. He does not appear to have been a threat by any reporting. So barring her forgetting to mention a chainsaw he was menacing her with, she was 100% in the wrong, and murdered him. While trespassing.
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Old 9th September 2018, 07:07 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Is she a danger to society? Do you think she'll do this again?
On what basis do you assert she won't?

She has demonstrated that she
1) Can't tell her apartment from someone else's, and
2) Will shoot the person there upon first site.

So she has demonstrated herself to be incompetent and reckless. That is very much a danger to society.
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Old 9th September 2018, 07:13 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
"Freeze Police"? From 3 feet away?

Backing away quickly seems more reasonable. I am wondering if the victim was found in the hall, or in the apartment.
Good question. No bloodstains or crime scene tape on the 'after' pics of the front door and surrounding area, so I would provisionally assume he was shot inside.

I have had cops grab me from arms length telling me to freeze, so three feet should be no problem. She would also automatically step back when drawing, I would think, to give herself a better shot without getting tied up with the suspect...er, innocent homeowner in his skivvies.
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Old 9th September 2018, 07:19 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah. Seems he was in his tidy whiteys. These kind of details are game changers, not trivialities.

If he put her in imminent fear of death, she was justified in self-defense, even though she was in the wrong crib. That would be a tragic mistake. He does not appear to have been a threat by any reporting. So barring her forgetting to mention a chainsaw he was menacing her with, she was 100% in the wrong, and murdered him. While trespassing.
If she was in the hall, she was not trespassing.
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Old 9th September 2018, 07:25 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If she was in the hall, she was not trespassing.
At one point or another, I'm pretty sure she was. If she never touched the door, conceded. However, I don't really think that's the problem here, so much as the bullet that trespassed into Jean.
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Old 9th September 2018, 07:48 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The first step is she is charged. I wouldn't tell the police anything, if I was her. If the state can't prove their case, she doesn't have to claim anything.
I'm not sure of that. The state has no case to prove. She shot the guy. No justification or mitigation is inherent. If she wants to change the default for manslaughter, it's up to her.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:08 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
On what basis do you assert she won't?

She has demonstrated that she
1) Can't tell her apartment from someone else's, and
2) Will shoot the person there upon first site.

So she has demonstrated herself to be incompetent and reckless. That is very much a danger to society.
Really? You don't see this as a one-off? I find that hard to believe. She never would have made it to adulthood if she was that reckless. She certainly couldn't carry out a career as a cop. Yet she seems to have done so, until this incident.

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Old 9th September 2018, 08:10 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I'm not sure of that. The state has no case to prove. She shot the guy. No justification or mitigation is inherent. If she wants to change the default for manslaughter, it's up to her.
You must be kidding.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:16 PM   #416
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Arrested for manslaughter.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...story,amp.html
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:21 PM   #417
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Imagine-

Quote:
Dallas Tx (AP) - An off-duty Dallas police officer was shot and killed in her downtown apartment by a fellow tenant who claims, "I thought it was my apartment." Police say the tenant, LaVonne Charles, had tried to force his way into the apartment, there was some type of confrontation and it ended with Charles firing a single shot from a handgun, killing the officer. Charles was arrested at the scene on murder charges. He is currently being held in city jail without bail.

Dallas police officers were visibly shaken by the incident. As one said, "Now we're not even safe in our own homes. I knew the officer and she was a very fine person. It's just senseless."
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:23 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Really? You don't see this as a one-off? I find that hard to believe.
I find it hard to believe that she
1) Doesn't know what apartment is hers, and
2) Shoots a guy as the first response in opening the door.

But yes, that's what she did.

So what we find "hard to believe" is pretty immaterial.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:30 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
....
Why would she have to have her gun drawn? She opens the door, sees a guy coming towards her, draws her gun, and shoots. THEN realizes it's the wrong apartment. That's the simplest explanation of what happened.
Because in that momentary delay, as he sees a uniformed police officer reaching for her gun he might have had a chance to say "Hold on, wait!," and she might have had a longer time to assess the situation and yell "Stop!" Cops aren't quick-draw artists, especially with theft-resistant duty holsters, as many are. I don't have much doubt that she had the gun drawn before she saw him.

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Old 9th September 2018, 08:33 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You must be kidding.
I think he means no doubt about who did what: no mistaken identity, no false accusation, no "accidental" discharge, etc. She deliberately shot and killed him. The only question is whether she can claim some basis for justification/rationalization.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:34 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I find it hard to believe that she
1) Doesn't know what apartment is hers, and
2) Shoots a guy as the first response in opening the door.

But yes, that's what she did.

So what we find "hard to believe" is pretty immaterial.
Really?! I find 1) pretty easy to envision since numerous people have mentioned it in this very thread.


It's the "shooting" 2) part I find less plausible and/or forgivable.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:35 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I find it hard to believe that she
1) Doesn't know what apartment is hers, and
2) Shoots a guy as the first response in opening the door.

But yes, that's what she did. So what we find "hard to believe" is pretty immaterial.
Why do you find (1) and (2) hard to believe? What's unbelievable about it?
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:38 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Because in that momentary delay, as he sees a uniformed police officer reaching for her gun he might have had a chance to say "Hold on, wait!," and she might have had a longer time to assess the situation and yell "Stop!" Cops aren't quick-draw artists, especially with theft-resistant duty holsters, as many are. I don't have much doubt that she had the gun drawn before she saw him.
That's one way it might have gone down. We don't know and we probably never will.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:43 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Why do you find (1) and (2) hard to believe? What's unbelievable about it?
Because normally, people a) know where they live, and b) even when they do mix things up, they realize that they must have messed up and don't go after the people who live there.

Is this really a common action where you live? Go to the wrong place and then take it out on the people who live there?
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:44 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I think he means no doubt about who did what: no mistaken identity, no false accusation, no "accidental" discharge, etc. She deliberately shot and killed him. The only question is whether she can claim some basis for justification/rationalization.
She's probably going to have to put on a defense, but prosecutors can screw up easy cases. If the state can't prove it's case, she doesn't have to say a thing.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:46 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Because normally, people a) know where they live, and b) even when they do mix things up, they realize that they must have messed up and don't go after the people who live there.

Is this really a common action where you live? Go to the wrong place and then take it out on the people who live there?
Nobody's arguing this is common, but it isn't the weirdest thing I've ever heard of. One of Alan Dershowitz's first book is about cases weirder than this. People get up to all sorts of crazy ****.
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Old 9th September 2018, 08:55 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
She's probably going to have to put on a defense, but prosecutors can screw up easy cases. If the state can't prove it's case, she doesn't have to say a thing.
The state only has to prove that she shot and killed him. That's an indisputable fact. It's up to her to explain/justify/rationalize it. The jury might even start out on her side. But she has to give them something.

And yes, prosecutors can screw up easy cases.

I anticipate a plea bargain, not a trial.
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Old 9th September 2018, 09:02 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The state only has to prove that she shot and killed him. That's an indisputable fact. It's up to her to explain/justify/rationalize it. The jury might even start out on her side. But she has to give them something.

And yes, prosecutors can screw up easy cases.

I anticipate a plea bargain, not a trial.
Maybe. I still don't think they'll charge her with anything serious.
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Old 9th September 2018, 09:09 PM   #429
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Bit too difficult to find on my phone but I'm pretty sure someone posted a quote from a neighbour saying her apartment was the only one with a big red welcome mat outside.

You would think the fact that door wasn't the one with this might have jogged her memory.

I have to say I've probably absent mindedly walked halfway to the wrong car that is the same colour and model as mine in a car park once or twice, but into the wrong home is a new kind of stupid.

Are we sure she wasn't drunk?
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Old 9th September 2018, 09:43 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You must be kidding.
No, I'm not kidding. She shot the guy. There is no dispute about who shot whom and who died. It's manslaughter at least. If there is any mitigation it's her job to prove it, not the State's.
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Old 9th September 2018, 09:46 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Maybe. I still don't think they'll charge her with anything serious.
You didn't note my post above. She has already been arrested and charged with manslaughter.
https://www.star-telegram.com/latest...218101230.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ng/1248119002/
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:01 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Bit too difficult to find on my phone but I'm pretty sure someone posted a quote from a neighbour saying her apartment was the only one with a big red welcome mat outside.

You would think the fact that door wasn't the one with this might have jogged her memory.
....
No, other way around. His apartment had the big red mat, as seen in some pictures. She must have thought somebody left her a present.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:34 PM   #433
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Shades of the saffer blade runner dude about this.

At least his was in his own house
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:56 PM   #434
fromdownunder
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It's perfectly obvious. They were having an affair, and he broke it off a couple of days earlier. She was in a blue funk over this, and thought that taking him out with what seemed like a harmless location mistake, would be construed purely as an accident.


What was he doing in his underwear? Did he secretly change his mind and expected to sweep her up in his arms, while she, as the wronged party, maintained her rage?


Inquiring minds want to know.


Norm
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:11 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Oh, sorry, I forgot we were talk about a perfect machine here.

I really don't know what went wrong. But the new building factor is a possiblity.
It might be a factor.

Luckily, Texas has "Negligent Homicide".

It's probably that or manslaughter - until we learn more, we can't say.
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Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:20 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It might be a factor.

Luckily, Texas has "Negligent Homicide".

It's probably that or manslaughter - until we learn more, we can't say.
I repeat, she has already been arrested and charged with manslaughter.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/10/us/da...est/index.html
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:07 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What have I said that makes you think I want people to believe she was terrified? She's got to claim that or she has no defense at all for shooting the guy.

And again, you seem to be making up details out of thin air.
Maybe not you, but plenty of people here seem to be trying to justify her stupidity and/or negligence on the grounds of assumed terror. "She could have been killed!" "She could have been raped!" Etc.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 10th September 2018 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:10 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's not an overreaction if she legitimately feared for her life. It's tragic because she got the apartments mixed up, but forgetting which door is yours is not something you go to prison for. It's not a criminal act, in and of itself. It led to a chain of events that ended in a guy's death, but the initial act wasn't criminally negligent. I think that's important. She made an innocent mistake and things went from there. The key thing is that it was an innocent mistake.

In other words, she did a non-criminal thing that put her in a certain state of mind. Or that's what she'll probably argue. And if it went down like in my scenario, I think she'll win that argument.
Yeah, let's break the whole incident down into mutually exclusive steps that can be individually hand-waved away...
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:16 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If you were walking in the door of what you thought was your home and a strange man gets up and maybe runs at you, and you have a gun, you think it's unreasonable to shoot the person? Really?
Why would he have run at her? I would think that if a cop walked into his home, his reaction would be the exact opposite. Even if he was moving towards the door when it opened, the sight of the uniform would be more likely to make him stop in his tracks than lunge at her.
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Old 10th September 2018, 01:26 AM   #440
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Quote:
When she arrived home, she took the elevator to a floor that was not hers. She then went to what she thought was her door, put the key in and struggled with the lock. Guyger then put down several things she was holding and continued to fight with the key when the resident swung open the door and startled her.
On or next to that big red door mat she doesn't have, presumably.

And this cop is supposed to be in an "elite" unit?!
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