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Old 10th September 2018, 08:44 AM   #521
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yeah, but you frequently jump in to threads and completely misrepresent what's going on in them. And you haven't cited an example.
Disagreeing with you is not misrepresenting things.

If everybody agrees she should be charged what exactly are we discussing?

And what exactly are you demanding a cited example of? Excuse making?
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:48 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Hall announced Friday that investigators were preparing a warrant for a manslaughter charge. A day later, after turning over the case, she said the Rangers had asked her to hold off on the charges. The Rangers, she said, had interviewed Guyger and wanted to further investigate information obtained from her.

You're not even reading the links.
Quote:
A 30-year old off-duty Dallas police officer has been arrested and charged with manslaughter in the shooting death of 26-year-old Botham Shem Jean on Thursday night.

Four-year Dallas police veteran Amber Guyger was booked into the Kaufman County Jail at 7:20 p.m., according to jail records.
https://www.star-telegram.com/latest...218101230.html

Quote:
Texas law enforcement officials Sunday arrested a Dallas police officer in connection with a manslaughter warrant after she fatally shot one of her neighbors, a black man, in his apartment last week.

Amber Guyger was booked into the Kaufman County Jail about 7:20 p.m. Sunday, according to online records. She posted a $300,000 bond and was released, jail officials said.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ng/1248119002/
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:49 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You didn't note my post above. She has already been arrested and charged with manslaughter.
https://www.star-telegram.com/latest...218101230.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ng/1248119002/
Hall announced Friday that investigators were preparing a warrant for a manslaughter charge. A day later, after turning over the case, she said the Rangers had asked her to hold off on the charges. The Rangers, she said, had interviewed Guyger and wanted to further investigate information obtained from her.

It never hurts to at least look at links being shared before disagreeing with them

Bob001 posted an announcement from Sunday.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:55 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Disagreeing with you is not misrepresenting things.
You're misrepresenting my post right here.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:56 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
The problem is, that's simply not going to happen. Look at this thread, where people are actually trying to claim that this shooting was legally justified. Those people exist, and as long as they do, holding police to "an exponentially higher standard" is just not going to happen.

So what do we do then? Do we try to find a compromise, such that the police are subject to at least some sort of punishment in these cases, or do we just keep screaming about it, while nothing else gets done?
I get your point, that the proposed compromise is better than the status quo. What I would hope for is that threads like these raise awareness of how problematic shooting is, and how bad things can get, and start to sway those people who are inclined to give cops extra leeway with the 'whoopsie-daisy' defense. I think it is time to dig in, rather than give ground. Police shoot when they shouldn't, nation-wide. It's time to overhaul how we treat both cops and suspects in law enforcement.

Over the weekend, I was in Philadelphia and took the Patco (like a subway) to Camden (a scruffy city in NJ). The only time I felt a twinge of fear was when two Philly cops were giving me the once-over. It is becoming too normalized to fear cops. Time to hit the breaks and fix the problem, not tweak the details. A cop should not get the message that we will go soft on them killing innocents. They need to know that it will go much harder on them if the trigger is their first resort.

Quote:
I'm not concerned with it, but the people I'm trying to compromise with seem to be. That's why I'm asking the question, would you accept this compromise if the people who support the cops in these kinds of situations would be willing to accept it?
Still no. It has to be howled from the rooftops that police are systemically getting away with murder till it cannot be denied or explained away and action results. We can't say cops have halo and are allowed a couple kills more than any other citizen.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:00 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Okay, you know what? I think we need a new law here. Not murder, or manslaughter, but something. Call it the "You done ****** up, copper" law. For situations like this, where the cops just done ****** up. No need to prove intent, or racism, or worry about "fear for their lives" and all that distraction.

Just admit your done ****** up, copper, and we'll give you a lighter sentence, in one of those country-club type prisons. Gets the idiot off the street, bars them from ever working as a cop again, but maybe doesn't completely ruin the rest of their life.

Anyone want to make that compromise?

My compromise would be that at the very least cops be treated the same way that any other citizen would be when they screw up while off duty.

That isn't enough, in my opinion, when they are on duty. I agree with those who have suggested that they should be held to a higher standard because of the considerable power inherent in their position and the added responsibility to exercise good judgement. Sadly the opposite seems to be the case.

An off-duty cop who walks into someone else's home and shoots the legal resident should be treated the same way as anyone else who had done the same.

Does anyone here actually believe it would have taken three days for a warrant to be issued and for her to be arrested if she had just been some regular "civilian" coming home from work?

If it had been a young black male who had done this he would have been fortunate to stay alive long enough to even get arrested. But there wouldn't have been any delay about it. He would have been in handcuffs and on the way to jail as quickly as they could disengage him from the scene of the killing.

Why wasn't she?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:04 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I get your point, that the proposed compromise is better than the status quo. What I would hope for is that threads like these raise awareness of how problematic shooting is, and how bad things can get, and start to sway those people who are inclined to give cops extra leeway with the 'whoopsie-daisy' defense. I think it is time to dig in, rather than give ground. Police shoot when they shouldn't, nation-wide. It's time to overhaul how we treat both cops and suspects in law enforcement.

Over the weekend, I was in Philadelphia and took the Patco (like a subway) to Camden (a scruffy city in NJ). The only time I felt a twinge of fear was when two Philly cops were giving me the once-over. It is becoming too normalized to fear cops. Time to hit the breaks and fix the problem, not tweak the details. A cop should not get the message that we will go soft on them killing innocents. They need to know that it will go much harder on them if the trigger is their first resort.



Still no. It has to be howled from the rooftops that police are systemically getting away with murder till it cannot be denied or explained away and action results. We can't say cops have halo and are allowed a couple kills more than any other citizen.
You are asserting something that has not been proposed in this thread. Namely, that anyone is suggesting she should get special treatment because she is a LEO.

Under certain scenarios ( that would fit with the info we have so far ), I would be willing to consider this an accident if any armed citizen walked into what they thought was their own living room , in dark close quarters, and shot someone who they thought was an intruder.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:07 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Has anyone actually done that?

That's essentially what Drewbot is saying:


Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Many cops have gotten off responding to the wrong house and shooting people. Many have gotten off shooting someone when the wrong address is on a warrant.

I'd say it is important if she announced "POLICE, OPEN UP" first. If she did that, then she will certainly be cleared. If she did not, it might be a difficult defense.
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Here is another scenario, she walks up to the wrong apartment, starts to put her key in, realizes it is not her apartment, but hears something indicating a crime in progress. She then attempts to stop the crime by announcing 'open up, police' the door opens, and the subject attacks the officer.

At what point did she realize it was not her apartment, but there was a possible crime in progress?

Or, if she is at the apartment thinking it is hers, hears something, assumes it is a crime in progress, then announces police.

This is going to be very hard to prosecute. Either way, she THINKS there is a crime in progress.
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If she convinces a jury that she was in fear of her life, after a 14hour shift, they will have to acquit her.

Do you know if the resident answered the door with a gun? or a knife? or a bat? We don't know this yet. How can you say the above, knowing that police officers have been getting off shooting people in the wrong house over and over?


"If she convinces a jury that she was in fear of her life, after a 14hour shift, they will have to acquit her."

Drewbot believes that the "fear for her life" standard is sufficient to justify an acquittal, which is the legal equivalent of saying her actions were justified.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:10 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You are asserting something that has not been proposed in this thread. Namely, that anyone is suggesting she should get special treatment because she is a LEO.

Under certain scenarios ( that would fit with the info we have so far ), I would be willing to consider this an accident if any armed citizen walked into what they thought was their own living room , in dark close quarters, and shot someone who they thought was an intruder.
Are you seriously proposing that if someone shot and killed an innocent man, in the innocent man's residence, that they would be able to walk away in any conceivable scenario if they were not a cop????

eta: What they 'thought' would come out later. Killers in someone else's house get cuffed, if not shot themselves, when police arrive
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Last edited by Thermal; 10th September 2018 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:10 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps, but the key wouldn't rotate at all.
It would be silly to think anyone would just silly walk away, without trying to open their apartment door, after the key didn't turn the first time ... EVERYONE would try the knob next.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:15 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
It would be silly to think anyone would just silly walk away, without trying to open their apartment door, after the key didn't turn the first time ... EVERYONE would try the knob next.
I'm not so sure. The key not turning might be enough to snap someone out of a state of distraction.

I had a very similar experience when I was in college. I mindlessly got off the elevator and tried to open the door to the dorm room one floor beneath mine. The key refusing to turn was what got me to pay attention and notice the room number was wrong.

But sure, I could easily see someone just opening the door if it were unlocked.

There's just too much unknown at this point and I'm a sucker for speculation. I'm sure more details will be forthcoming, we just have to wait.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:16 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Are you seriously proposing that if someone shot and killed an innocent man, in the innocent man's residence, that they would be able to walk away in any conceivable scenario if they were not a cop????

eta: What they 'thought' would come out later. Killers in someone else's house get cuffed, if not shot themselves, when police arrive
After immediately calling the police and "confessing", then waiting for them to arrive, submitting themselves to questioning for as long as needed, and volunteering to give blood samples? Possibly.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:17 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
So she demanded that he open the door, he saw that she was a cop and opened the door, and she immediately shot him twice.
Well, you can never be too sure...

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Joe, please don't ruin the thread. It's quite reasonable for her to feel threatened if she thinks that there is a burglar in her apartment. That's not offered here as an excuse but rather as an explanation.

It's terrible that this guy was killed and it should not have happened.
Yeah **** happens, right? Wrong appartment. Sees someone there. First instinct is not to question her location and look at the door number or anything. Point and shoot.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
OMG, Joe! It's obvious that I'm talking about her state of mind. She thought it was her own apartment.
Yeah, but she's an idiot, and I don't think stupidity is a mitigating circumstance.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If this truly was a mistake by a sober woman who walked into the wrong apartment and freaked out, what would be the point of prosecuting her?
...what?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:17 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not so sure. The key not turning might be enough to snap someone out of a state of distraction.
Yes .. but I guess it depends on the level of confidence it was HER apartment ... I'd imagine in this case she was unwaveringly convinced.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:18 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Is she a danger to society? Do you think she'll do this again? Is there any history of this ever happening with her before?
Judge: "Well, your reckless and irrational actions caused the death of an innocent, but seeing as this is your first killing, we'll give you a warning this time, okay?"
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:19 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
That's essentially what Drewbot is saying:

"If she convinces a jury that she was in fear of her life, after a 14hour shift, they will have to acquit her."

Drewbot believes that the "fear for her life" standard is sufficient to justify an acquittal, which is the legal equivalent of saying her actions were justified.
There's an "if" in that statement. And I think reasonable fear is the standard, isn't it?

To Drewbot: Have you decided if this cop was justified in shooting the victim?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:20 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Judge: "Well, your reckless and irrational actions caused the death of an innocent, but seeing as this is your first killing, we'll give you a warning this time, okay?"
Actual transcript of Judges decision, in future court case.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:25 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
Actual transcript of Judges decision, in future court case.
With the note: "But it's your second shooting on duty in the last couple years. The next one will get you a stern talking to."
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:26 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
There's an "if" in that statement. And I think reasonable fear is the standard, isn't it?
No, I don't think "Anyone could reasonably expect to be afraid in this situation" is an appropriate standard. The standard is, or should be, reasonable and justified fear that one is about to suffer an unlawful assault. If the fear turns out to be unjustified - for example, the "threat" turns out to be an unarmed man with learning difficulties who is holding a toy car rather than a criminal holding a gun - or the assault feared is in fact lawful - for example, one is in commission of a crime and is afraid that the police officer approaching is about to make an arrest - then the standard would not be met.

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Old 10th September 2018, 09:27 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's comparable in the sense that people died as a result of actions I took that were based faulty perceptions.
I feel like you're missing an important element, there. Gee, what could it be...?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again elephant in the room if the guy had panicked and shot the cop, nobody would be worried about the odds that he would do it again, they'd be calling for his head.
I don't know. He'd have Stood His Ground in his Castle. Tough one.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:30 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
After immediately calling the police and "confessing", then waiting for them to arrive, submitting themselves to questioning for as long as needed, and volunteering to give blood samples? Possibly.
I think Zimmerman did similar, to use a popular example. Off he went in cuffs for processing.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:30 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Has anyone actually done that?

There have been plenty of posts in this thread trying to explain why she shouldn't be charged, or why she would get off scot-free if she goes to court.

Do those count?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:32 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Driving while very tired is not a smart thing to do. What did this woman do that was equivalent?
Are you taking the piss, here?

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
How do you know that?
None are apparent. Burden of evidence and all that.

Quote:
Yes, it goes to her state of mind.
"******* idiot" is not a state of mind that should get you off.

Quote:
Do white grandmothers kill black men? No? Then the situation is not remotely similar.
Profiling. Cool. I gues you never take your coffee black either, just in case.

Quote:
The article said she was coming off a 12 hour shift. She could have been very tired. Being very tired and driving is stupid. Being very tired and going to your apartment is not.
I feel like you're missing an important element, there. Gee, what could it be...?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:33 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Something not yet discussed.... My good friend is ex NYPD and LAPD (he is 65 and retired).When discussing this case over coffee, he mentioned that in both cities patrol officers were required to change out of uniform before leaving duty. He said that this was to distinguish on and off duty perosnel. He told me, "for the life of me, I don't know wjhy she was in full uniform. We HAD to change. They even had a dry cleaning service to pick up our uniforms. The only guys who left with part of their uniforms on were active SWAT, and they only kept their pants on and exchanged their shirts for civilian style blues". He said that he doesn't know Dallas PD's system but that he is convinced that they don't let active cops just leave in full dress...

I'm trying to find anything on this. Any ex cops lurking around? Bikewer?
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's going to vary by department. Cops in my home town not only left in full uniform, they drove their police cars to and from work, keeping them parked at home when off duty.
I've had cops as neighbors in other large Texas cities and they all came home in uniform and with their assigned vehicle. I think they have to reach a certain rank to take the assigned vehicle home, though. Both of my neighbors who were officers had some time in.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:36 AM   #545
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I thought I read something about it being difficult to get on the wrong floor because access to the floors was controlled as well.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:40 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You are asserting something that has not been proposed in this thread. Namely, that anyone is suggesting she should get special treatment because she is a LEO.

She's already gotten special treatment. She didn't go to jail in handcuffs that night. She didn't even get arrested for three days.

Quote:

Under certain scenarios ( that would fit with the info we have so far ), I would be willing to consider this an accident if any armed citizen walked into what they thought was their own living room , in dark close quarters, and shot someone who they thought was an intruder.

Yeah. Maybe.

But that wouldn't stop the cops from taking the shooter downtown.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:43 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, I don't think "Anyone could reasonably expect to be afraid in this situation" is an appropriate standard.

No one said that and that isn't what reasonable fear means in the law.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:44 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There have been plenty of posts in this thread trying to explain why she shouldn't be charged, or why she would get off scot-free if she goes to court.

Do those count?
Only if they actually say that.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:44 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
After immediately calling the police and "confessing", then waiting for them to arrive, submitting themselves to questioning for as long as needed, and volunteering to give blood samples? Possibly.

"Possibly".

In the sense that anything is possible?

If she had just been some random person and not a cop, they would have had her arrested and downtown first, and let her off on her own afterward if they thought that was appropriate.

Either way she would have been escorted away by the cops.

You can count on it. The police would have been delinquent to do anything else.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:47 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If she convinces a jury that she was in fear of her life, after a 14hour shift, they will have to acquit her.

Do you know if the resident answered the door with a gun? or a knife? or a bat? We don't know this yet. How can you say the above, knowing that police officers have been getting off shooting people in the wrong house over and over?
No reports from the 911 call of her saying anything else other than she thought it was her apartment, she shot someone twice, and apologizing to the dying man, and crying, afaik.

I don't think she claimed he had a weapon or a cell phone.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:47 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
She's already gotten special treatment...
That was my point in posting the imaginary news story about an off-duty officer being shot in their apartment by a neighbor who had gone to the wrong apartment.

Turn it around, if it was the officer who had been shot and killed by a neighbor who was at the wrong door. Would someone who killed an off-duty officer in identical circumstances be treated the same way? Because they should be.

In this case, especially because the officer (apparently) immediately reported the incident, I can live with the police treating the officer with more consideration and courtesy than a non-officer would get. But it is not only ethically wrong, it's probably illegal.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:48 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Only if they actually say that.

In other words, it only counts if it is explicit, and lots of explanations about why she isn't guilty of a crime or transparent Just Asking Questions™ doesn't imply anything at all?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:49 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Possibly".

In the sense that anything is possible?

If she had just been some random person and not a cop, they would have had her arrested and downtown first, and let her off on her own afterward if they thought that was appropriate.

Either way she would have been escorted away by the cops.

You can count on it. The police would have been delinquent to do anything else.
Assuming she wasn't shot on police arrival. I mean, she still had a gun. Might have scared the other cops.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:49 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You're not required by law to give a warning if you believe your life is in danger.
Right, and since my life is always in danger of something, I should shoot liberally.

She's a trained police officer, and she stupidly thought there was someone in her home when she was outside of it. Unless he acted violently I don't see how she could believe that her life was in danger.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Good dodge. Are women less likely to have the "crap beaten out of them" and/or get raped than men?
Dude, what are you on about?

Quote:
Neglecting to acknowledge that the woman claimed she believed that she was entering her own apartment in order to spout that hyperbole rises to the level of being deliberately obtuse.
I don't care what she claimed. She had the wrong appartment, failed to check that, and shot someone dead. She's an idiot and a danger with a weapon, and should be removed from active duty, not to mention prosecuted.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It depends on state of mind.
It's funny how you're consistently sidelining the important element here. Gee, what could it be...?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:50 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Judge: "Well, your reckless and irrational actions caused the death of an innocent, but seeing as this is your first killing, we'll give you a warning this time, okay?"
It's her second killing, actually.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:50 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Possibly".

In the sense that anything is possible?

If she had just been some random person and not a cop, they would have had her arrested and downtown first, and let her off on her own afterward if they thought that was appropriate.

Either way she would have been escorted away by the cops.

You can count on it. The police would have been delinquent to do anything else.
Is anyone certain that is not what happened here? Was she not taken to "the station" to give her statement?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:50 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
In other words, it only counts if it is explicit, and lots of explanations about why she isn't guilty of a crime or transparent Just Asking Questions™ doesn't imply anything at all?
Apparently we had to pretend that JAQing Off isn't a thing or else we're "misrepresenting" people.

Or hell not even that. Plenty of people have literally said the woman didn't do anything legally wrong so I don't know where the "SHOW ME THE EXACT WORDS!" rant is coming from.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:52 AM   #558
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Being tired after your shift is not an excuse for walking into somebody else's house and shooting them to death. Consider that only minutes earlier, while equally "tired", the same officer was walking around, armed, and presumably responsible for protecting innocent life.

This person deserves to go to prison for a very long time.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:54 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right, and since my life is always in danger of something, I should shoot liberally.

She's a trained police officer, and she stupidly thought there was someone in her home when she was outside of it. Unless he acted violently I don't see how she could believe that her life was in danger.



Dude, what are you on about?



I don't care what she claimed. She had the wrong appartment, failed to check that, and shot someone dead. She's an idiot and a danger with a weapon, and should be removed from active duty, not to mention prosecuted.



It's funny how you're consistently sidelining the important element here. Gee, what could it be...?
It is not apparent at this point that she " thought someone was inside her home " at any point up to the point at which she actually encountered them.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:54 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Or hell not even that. Plenty of people have literally said the woman didn't do anything legally wrong so I don't know where the "SHOW ME THE EXACT WORDS!" rant is coming from.
That there are people who evidently believe that what has taken place, as it has been related to us, is just fine and nobody did anything wrong, is utterly mind-numbing to me.
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