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Old 10th September 2018, 10:58 AM   #601
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The victim's lawyer says that he has video and witness testimony that contradict published accounts and right about the time he went to the DA with that video and witness, the cop was arrested.

Could be a coincidence, though.

I think he has video or audio of the officer yelling at Jean to open the door. That would contradict the "unlocked door" story.

I'm seeing two versions of the story so I guess we're back to square one.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:02 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
IIRC, the guy who accidentally shot his neighbor whilst illegally poaching slept in his own bed for a few days before they charged him.
Was the neighbor a police officer?
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:02 AM   #603
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City of Dallas taxpayers need to really think about maybe raising what we pay starting cops so that we can fill some of the 200 vacancies and avoid this sort of massive liability. Admitting that you are understaffed and overworking your existing staff is just a recipe for massive liability every time an officer screws up.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:05 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Was the neighbor a police officer?
No, but the neighbor was a woman!


Good point. Sorry, I misread your original post.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:06 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I thought the previous was a wounding - and it seemed justified as he'd grabbed her taser, so she would have had reason to fear for her life.

ETA: in the first case - unlike the second shooting, where the most lenient interpretation I can give is negligent homicide.
You are correct. Second shooting, first killing.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:07 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The victim's lawyer says that he has video and witness testimony that contradict published accounts and right about the time he went to the DA with that video and witness, the cop was arrested.

Could be a coincidence, though.

I think he has video or audio of the officer yelling at Jean to open the door. That would contradict the "unlocked door" story.
If she lied about how it happened (big if, I know. Given conflicting news accounts, that is yet to be determined), it would be very bad for her, and would make me think that the whole "wrong apartment" story was an attempt by the officer to cover up a premeditated murder.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:07 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
City of Dallas taxpayers need to really think about maybe raising what we pay starting cops so that we can fill some of the 200 vacancies and avoid this sort of massive liability. Admitting that you are understaffed and overworking your existing staff is just a recipe for massive liability every time an officer screws up.
That's what I was thinking.


Clean up your town, Dr. Keith!
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:09 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Stop misrepresenting everything.


No, FFS. I'm agreeing he presented an unreasonable fear. I just freaking told you that. And as far as I know the officer in this shooting hasn't event claimed fear at all yet. And I certainly haven't defended such a claim. If you would invest a minute to read for meaning I actually made a point that would make her eligible for a murder 2 charge rather than manslaughter (and I still don't see why murder 2 isn't appropriate here).
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why the **** do you think I don't understand that?? Where the **** did I even mention it??
Dude, chill out.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:09 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
If she lied about how it happened (big if, I know. Given conflicting news accounts, that is yet to be determined), it would be very bad for her, and would make me think that the whole "wrong apartment" story was an attempt by the officer to cover up a premeditated murder.
I don't think the idea is that she lied, but that Dallas PD lied in the story they put out about the door being unlocked and the officer just walking in.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:12 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, FFS. I'm agreeing he presented an unreasonable fear. I just freaking told you that. And as far as I know the officer in this shooting hasn't event claimed fear at all yet. And I certainly haven't defended such a claim. If you would invest a minute to read for meaning I actually made a point that would make her eligible for a murder 2 charge rather than manslaughter (and I still don't see why murder 2 isn't appropriate here).


Take a look at your post again:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12423751

The problem here is that you said "Yes, you'd be correct" to a post that contained two different hypotheticals. It's not clear just from the post if you're agreeing to the last paragraph, or the first.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:12 AM   #611
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I don't know given what information we have now (over-reaching caveat that we don't have the full story and I reserve the right to modify this as we do) even as a far out spitballing theory the "Really a premeditated murder" story doesn't really flow for me.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:15 AM   #612
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Have they released a recording of her 911 call? That would be her earliest account.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:18 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He might have been watching a police drama on his telly and there were gunshots on the soundtrack.

The more people speculate about this the more it becomes clear that he was a suicide, he'd arranged everything so no matter what he did it would result in his death.

So cruel of him to involve this innocent police officer in his suicide - typical selfish suicider.
Makes more sense than some of the apologists here....
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:19 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I don't think the idea is that she lied, but that Dallas PD lied in the story they put out about the door being unlocked and the officer just walking in.
The other story by the anonymous police officer had her futzing with the door and Jean answering the door in his underwear.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:25 AM   #615
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The fact the woman is a cop is irrelevant to me. I would argue the same thing if it was an armed citizen who did this. So far, this story isn't too different than one hunter at dusk honestly mistaking another for a deer. Not every hunter who accidentally kills someone gets prosecuted. Accidents happen, and sometimes people get killed when guns are involved.

The cops treated her with kid gloves because she was a cop, but that's par for the course.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 10th September 2018 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:26 AM   #616
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I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that the City of Dallas and the Dallas PD does not want this to go to trial.

They are going to be portrayed as the department that forces officers to work extended dangerous shifts, because they don't want to pay for more officers. They are going to be crucified if this goes to trial.

I'm going to say it will be a huge out of court civil settlement, with charges against the officer dropped, or a plea to the lowest possible offense.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:27 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
The other story by the anonymous police officer had her futzing with the door and Jean answering the door in his underwear.
Yes, one has the door unlocked.

One has Jean opening the door.

I'm going with the locked door, key won't work, "open up!", bang bang story.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:27 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The victim's lawyer says that he has video and witness testimony that contradict published accounts and right about the time he went to the DA with that video and witness, the cop was arrested.

Could be a coincidence, though.

I think he has video or audio of the officer yelling at Jean to open the door. That would contradict the "unlocked door" story.

No reports on what they've got. But they've got something.

Quote:
Moments earlier on Sunday, Jeanís family attorney Lee Merritt met with Dallas County District Attorney Faith Johnson and said he had new evidence and demanded that Guyger be taken into custody.

ďWe want to know why that person is not in handcuffs yet,Ē Merritt said then.

While Johnson could not answer the question during their meeting, the new evidence brought forward included a witness and video footage of the aftermath of the shooting, according to Merritt.
https://www.star-telegram.com/latest...218101230.html
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:27 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If there was any malice, or thoughts of premeditation, the officer would have lawyered up immediately.

Either she is going to plea to some type of a manslaughter charge, or they are going to come up with some sort of mental health related defense.

She was asleep on her feet after a tortuous 14-hour shift, therefore the incident occurred.
They will call several expert witness to explain the effects of long shifts on performance and judgement.

They will blame the police department for making this a requirement.

https://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enfor...es/impact.aspx
OK so being fatigued is sort of equivalent to being intoxicated. So does that mean intoxicated people should be given a pass for homicide?
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:28 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that the City of Dallas and the Dallas PD does not want this to go to trial.

They are going to be portrayed as the department that forces officers to work extended dangerous shifts, because they don't want to pay for more officers. They are going to be crucified if this goes to trial.

I'm going to say it will be a huge out of court civil settlement, with charges against the officer dropped, or a plea to the lowest possible offense.
I'll bet we find out that those shifts are common, and no officers have ever tried to get in someone else's home after a shift like that.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:29 AM   #621
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I think the military has run a "Can you safely carry a weapon even on no sleep" study for the last... ever that is rigorous enough for anybody.

I'm been so tired into an armed security watch that I'm surprised Freddy Krueger didn't show up and I still managed to never shoot someone in their own apartment.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:30 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
OK so being fatigued is sort of equivalent to being intoxicated. So does that mean intoxicated people should be given a pass for homicide?
"Given a pass" no but yes that's a standard defence in law

"In criminal law, the intoxication defense is a defense by which a defendant may claim diminished responsibility on the basis of substance intoxication. Where a crime requires a certain mental state (mens rea) to break the law, those under the influence of an intoxicating substance may be considered to have reduced liability for their actions"
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:30 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Take a look at your post again:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12423751

The problem here is that you said "Yes, you'd be correct" to a post that contained two different hypotheticals. It's not clear just from the post if you're agreeing to the last paragraph, or the first.
You need remedial reading then. And in the absence of that you should learn to ask for clarification. It's perfectly clear that the first "hypothetical" wasn't his actual opinion. He made that clear in the last sentence, as if it wasn't already obvious.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:31 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, one has the door unlocked.

One has Jean opening the door.

I'm going with the locked door, key won't work, "open up!", bang bang story.
But she would only be yelling "Open up!" if she thought somebody was inside. If it was just the non-functional key, she would be more likely to think there was something wrong with the lock. And if she thought somebody was in her apartment, she would have assumed it was a bad guy and had her gun drawn. Door opens, black guy (predetermined to be the bad guy) appears, "bang bang!" without any conversation.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:35 AM   #625
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The Onion: Defiant Dallas Police Officer Claims Anyone Could Have Mistaken Black Man’s Apartment For Gun

Quote:
“Listen, when your instincts kick in and your adrenaline is pumping, it’s easy to get confused—unfortunately, when you’re not sure if you’re looking at a furnished one-bedroom apartment or a deadly weapon, you have to err on the side of caution,” said the Dallas police officer now accused of manslaughter for shooting a black man in his own residence, explaining that she reacted in self-defense when the man appeared to be in possession of a firearm that turned out to be a three-piece living room set.
https://www.theonion.com/defiant-dal...tm_campaign=SF
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:38 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But she would only be yelling "Open up!" if she thought somebody was inside. If it was just the non-functional key, she would be more likely to think there was something wrong with the lock. And if she thought somebody was in her apartment, she would have assumed it was a bad guy and had her gun drawn. Door opens, black guy (predetermined to be the bad guy) appears, "bang bang!" without any conversation.
And she, technically, hasn't entered her apartment to observe the contents therein and realize her mistake.

Although if see hadn't entered the apartment that sets her up for, at least, a manslaughter charge.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:40 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
"Given a pass" no but yes that's a standard defence in law

"In criminal law, the intoxication defense is a defense by which a defendant may claim diminished responsibility on the basis of substance intoxication. Where a crime requires a certain mental state (mens rea) to break the law, those under the influence of an intoxicating substance may be considered to have reduced liability for their actions"
That's insane. If you intoxicate yourself and then kill someone, you're responsible because you knew getting drunk increased your risk.

****, in modern society we love to abdicate responsibility.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:41 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Onion: Defiant Dallas Police Officer Claims Anyone Could Have Mistaken Black Manís Apartment For Gun



https://www.theonion.com/defiant-dal...tm_campaign=SF
It's sad that that is actually a more coherent defence than some I have seen.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:41 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Onion: Defiant Dallas Police Officer Claims Anyone Could Have Mistaken Black Manís Apartment For Gun



https://www.theonion.com/defiant-dal...tm_campaign=SF
Beautiful.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:44 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
"Given a pass" no but yes that's a standard defence in law

"In criminal law, the intoxication defense is a defense by which a defendant may claim diminished responsibility on the basis of substance intoxication. Where a crime requires a certain mental state (mens rea) to break the law, those under the influence of an intoxicating substance may be considered to have reduced liability for their actions"
That might be a defense to a vehicular homicide charge -- "I was too drunk to know what I was doing" -- but it still involves admitting to the crime of drunk driving. "I was tired" doesn't carry its own penalty.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:46 AM   #631
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:49 AM   #632
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How long till the defence of, I shot the police officer dead because I was confused and forgetful and frightened. I now realise the officer was in a police station and not a threat to anyone.
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Old 10th September 2018, 11:52 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
That's what I was thinking.


Clean up your town, Dr. Keith!
It sounds dickish to be so worried about the bottom line, but all these police shootings are costing tax payers money. This is a real problem. This is hitting my tax bills.

Sure, increasing starting salaries will cost more, too. Lets just say they fill those 200 vacancies and we get up to 900 officers and pay them each an extra $20,000 that is $18M per year in additional salary, plus a bit more in retirement expenses and such. How much to you think this one shooting will cost after we factor in overtime and legal fees? How much will the next one cost?

Oh, and by their own admission they are spending more on overtime than it would cost to hire the 200 additional officers, so there would be some offset there.

The loss of life is devastating and I think I made that clear early on in this thread. But the fiscal mismanagement is pretty bad, too.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:02 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It sounds dickish to be so worried about the bottom line, but all these police shootings are costing tax payers money. This is a real problem. This is hitting my tax bills.

Sure, increasing starting salaries will cost more, too. Lets just say they fill those 200 vacancies and we get up to 900 officers and pay them each an extra $20,000 that is $18M per year in additional salary, plus a bit more in retirement expenses and such. How much to you think this one shooting will cost after we factor in overtime and legal fees? How much will the next one cost?

Oh, and by their own admission they are spending more on overtime than it would cost to hire the 200 additional officers, so there would be some offset there.

The loss of life is devastating and I think I made that clear early on in this thread. But the fiscal mismanagement is pretty bad, too.
For a city of 1.2 million people that works out to $15 per annum per person*. Not really a huge expense. That said police officers in Dallas are well paid:

http://dallaspolice.net/joindpd/Page...yBenefits.aspx

Starting pay of nearly 50k a year for a job that doesn't require a college degree, and tops out at over $75k a year without promotion. Thats before any bonuses or OT. Oh and a pension after 20 years.

ETA: *of course this is Texas we're talking about. A referendum to increase property taxes .1% will likely fail.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 10th September 2018 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:03 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I've had cops as neighbors in other large Texas cities and they all came home in uniform and with their assigned vehicle. I think they have to reach a certain rank to take the assigned vehicle home, though. Both of my neighbors who were officers had some time in.
I wonder if that is a Texas thing. When I was stateside I lived in LA, and the only cops who wore full unis home were motorcycle cops. Curious if that is only LAPD. I live in Guatemala, so a little different down here
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:05 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
How long till the defence of, I shot the police officer dead because I was confused and forgetful and frightened. I now realise the officer was in a police station and not a threat to anyone.
It's the perfect crime. After you shot the first person because you were scared you can just then claim that you're such a threat that any reasonable person would want to shot you on site, therefore you can claim "reasonable fear of for your life" from everybody, and shoot them.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:16 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by CTV News
The case against a white Dallas police officer who shot and killed a black neighbour in the neighbour's home will be presented to a grand jury, which could decide on more serious charges than manslaughter, the district attorney overseeing the case said Monday...

...Citing an unidentified law enforcement official with direct knowledge of the case, The Dallas Morning News reported that Guyger had just ended a 15-hour shift when she returned in uniform to the South Side Flats apartment complex where both she and Jean lived. She parked on the fourth floor, instead of the third, where she lived, possibly suggesting that she was confused or disoriented.

When she put her key in the unlocked apartment door, it opened. Inside, the lights were off. Then she saw a figure in the darkness, according to the official, who was not authorized to discuss the case publicly.

The officer concluded that her apartment was being burglarized, drew her weapon and fired twice. When she turned on the lights, she realized she was in the wrong unit, the newspaper reported.

A spokeswoman for the Texas Rangers did not immediately return a call from The Associated Press seeking to confirm the details of newspaper report.

Mayor Mike Rawlings also said Monday that Guyger had parked on the wrong floor.

The Dallas County medical examiner's office said Jean died of a gunshot wound to the chest. His death was ruled a homicide...

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/case-ag...jury-1.4086751
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:16 PM   #638
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But she would only be yelling "Open up!" if she thought somebody was inside. If it was just the non-functional key, she would be more likely to think there was something wrong with the lock. And if she thought somebody was in her apartment, she would have assumed it was a bad guy and had her gun drawn. Door opens, black guy (predetermined to be the bad guy) appears, "bang bang!" without any conversation.
I posted earlier that it seemed like she might have ordered him to open the door, and when he did what she ordered him to do, his reward was a bullet in the chest and a bullet in the stomach.

It's possible that if she's not in uniform, he doesn't open the door, and doesn't get shot, but because he sees a uniformed cop, he naturally opens the door on demand.

Assuming the "locked door" door story is correct...which we can't say yet.
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:18 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yes, that's the "unlocked door" version.

We also have a "locked door " version out there from a "police source".
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Old 10th September 2018, 12:22 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, that's the "unlocked door" version.

We also have a "locked door " version out there from a "police source".
I see the length of her shift keeps getting extended. First 12 hrs., then 14 and now 15!
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