ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags defamation cases , lawsuits , media criticism , Nathan Phillips , Nick Sandmann , protest incidents , racism charges

Reply
Old 26th February 2019, 07:16 PM   #2121
Apathia
Philosopher
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 5,206
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Already at the Battle of The Greasy Grass.
For clarity sake, "The Battle of The Greasy Grass" was on of the Native American names for the Battle of Little Bighorn. My meaning was that by the time these probably not so in good faith invitations were given, things had already been escalated into a somebody's gotta lose confrontations.

Sigh!
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2019, 11:56 PM   #2122
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Jesus christ. Have we really reached the point where we should accept trolling wrong posts that pollute threads because explaining the correct actual analysis is boring?

911 was an inside job
Tbd: no actually it was not, lists reasons
Hmm, thats a bit boring..

I dream of the time someone does not bust my balls for being right
You aren't right: Sandmann needs to demonstrate that some statement is false or he doesn't have a case.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 02:43 AM   #2123
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
No, but studying Meldrum I'd've learned from a true master.
Yes, it appears you certainly have learned from Meldrum.
But debate is fun and without opposing viewpoints I would have to be doing mundane chores instead of fighting on the internet for truth, gawd, and the proud Maple Leaf!

At about 8 minutes into the video you finally watched days after it was posted as evidence in this thread - Phillips states - on camera - "I'm a Vietnam Vet. I served in the marine corp '72-'76. I don't talk much about my Vietnam time..."

Why the heck is he even using the word "Vietnam" if not to give the illusion he was somehow directly associated with it?


Quote:
That video indeed does include a clip that sounds like Phillips is making that claim. I had not seen that clip previously. It sounds damning for Phillips, but I'm not sure what we really know.
Hilarious! "Sounds" damning? It is even subtitled and you do not think we really know what he is saying?


Quote:
First, no it would not necessarily change my mind about his integrity. Whether he did or did not lie about his military background would have no particular bearing on the material facts regarding his interaction with the Covington kids.
This man has lied about being a Vietnam vet for the sole purpose of obtaining sympathy and/or validation. That is why people lie about being veterans or cops. He uses this invented persona in order to further his aims as a protester and agitator.
Come on man - you yourself have railed against the practice of people giving high marks in the credibility department when the so-called witness is a cop or veteran (much more if they have been in a theatre of war).

His statements about "the material facts" have been shown conclusively to be at odds with the video record. He lied about who approached who. He lied about his path being blocked. Can't prove he lied about his interpretation of the events leading up to his actions - but it sure seems he was doing everything he could to play the incident up to the press in order to get publicity.
Dare I invoke the name of Jussie Smollet!

His credibility is totally shot. This isn't rocket science.

Quote:
Deflection much?
The man said what he said. He tried through subterfuge and prevarication to avoid admitting he lied in the past about his being a Vietnam vet and did everything he could to carry on the charade.
If people continuously lie and dodge and weave and prevaricate to either conceal a falsehood or perpetuate a untruth - they are...what is that word?
A liar!

Quote:
In fact, however, it is not clear precisely if, about what, and/or why Phillips might have misrepresented his military background. For example, it's entirely plausible that Phillips could have been in an altercation with some dude whose girlfriend had spit on him and called him a baby killer. If you looked like a Vietnam Vet in the mid-1970s, there were plenty of hippies around ready to wind you up.

You yourself just referred to a true soldier returning from Vietnam as a "Vietnam vet" and that Phillips in his uniform could have been mistaken for one.
Wow!!! So you have gone from saying that Phillips calling himself a "Vietnam vet" on video is not proof he is referring to himself as a soldier who fought in Vietnam to using that exact same term to describe a soldier who has actually fought in Vietnam as opposed to someone who hasn't!

Quote:
The part that would be obviously fabricated from this anecdote would be a specific claim from Phillips that he returned from Vietnam. We know that he did not. Does he actually say that he returned from Vietnam? I'm not sure about that, and neither are the folks at Snopes.
So what? Snopes is wrong in this case. For some reason they are - like you - bending over backwards trying to give this man the benefit of the doubt where none exists at all.
Is it because of his race or age or prominence in the world of Native American protestors? Is it because he doesn't like Catholics? You stated that you were a Catholic school student for a number of years upthread. Is it possible that your view of what happened is colored by your own experience, perceptions, and prejudices because of that?
He claimed to be a Vietnam vet on at least one occasion - that we know of - and then has continuously dodged and weaved and prevaricated in order to maintain that myth. It is foolish to think that such actions are not deliberate.
Once again - he used the very words you yourself used to describe a true soldier who was in Vietnam during the war: Vietnam vet.


Quote:
It appears to me that Phillips has been disingenuous about his service: at worst outright lying about it, at its most benign perhaps not correcting people who misunderstood him. (Oh Lord, don't let that happen!) Other than as a formative experience in his younger days that led him toward a life of activism, however, I don't see him claiming any kind of kudos for being some great soldier. In his interview from January of this year, he was quite careful to not claim to be a Vietnam Veteran. Thus, on balance, I still think that the "stolen valor" smear campaign against him has been ~75% bs and 25% his own damn fault
.

He claims to be a Vietnam vet because the tide has changed since the 60s and 70s and the public is now in love with Vietnam vets. They are held in high esteem and given heartfelt thanks and sympathy and respect from the general public.
This is not some guy telling tall ones in a bar about his brave exploits. This is a guy who craves public attention trying to gain sympathy and/or credibility based on his lying about his past for his own personal gain. That makes him lower than a snake's belly. Just ask any veteran who has been in theatre how much they like people who lie about being there.

Once again I remind you that you yourself know - and do not like the fact - that many people give cops and veterans some sort of added status as far as credibility goes.

Nathan Phillips is not some Peter who has lied about wolves in the past and has been finally vindicated by one showing up. Nathan Phillips' wolf is still imaginary and he is nothing more than just another con man telling fanciful tales for his own gain.
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt

Last edited by rockinkt; 27th February 2019 at 02:59 AM. Reason: fix quotes and punctuation. Spelingz
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 04:19 AM   #2124
applecorped
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,621
Some people have the hugest hands here
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 03:15 PM   #2125
The Shrike
Illuminator
 
The Shrike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,956
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Why the heck is he even using the word "Vietnam" if not to give the illusion he was somehow directly associated with it?
Why directly? He was in the Marine Corps Reserve from June 1972–May 1976. That period of service overlaps the Vietnam War. He's a veteran of the Vietnam era, which is most often how he describes himself.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Hilarious! "Sounds" damning? It is even subtitled and you do not think we really know what he is saying?
Right, but on multiple other occasions he's been very careful with his word choice and others have misquoted him. He's clearly inconsistent about this.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
This man has lied about being a Vietnam vet for the sole purpose of obtaining sympathy and/or validation.
If you say so. The sticky widget is that he kind of is a Vietnam vet, and he's usually gone out of his way to describe his service more specifically as Vietnam era or Vietnam times vet.

Imagine a scale of Vietnam Veteran-ness. At one end is John McCain, a decorated veteran of the war. At the other end is The Shrike, who has no military service and was in elementary school in the early 1970s. Nathan Phillips was actually a Marine Corps Reservist during the Vietnam War. He's a helluva lot closer to John McCain on that scale than he is to me.

Of course a sliding scale is a poor analogy because we have documentation of whether someone qualifies as a Veteran or not: eligibility for Veteran's Benefits. Has that been resolved? If he is eligible then he is a veteran. When did he serve? During the Vietnam era.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
His statements about "the material facts" have been shown conclusively to be at odds with the video record. He lied about who approached who.
Phillips either lied about or misread the events that led up to him approaching the Covington Catholic students. The dude has his own biases for sure. But I remember him claiming from the get-go that he approached the students.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
He lied about his path being blocked.
No he didn't. As he waded through the crowd people parted for him. Sandmann didn't. This blocked his path.

The part he lied about was evidently the "build the wall" chant. There's no evidence of that.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Deflection much?
The point stands. There has been a concerted campaign to discredit Phillips as a liar by some of the same people who are totally cool with many and more clear-cut lies from other people.

If for nothing other than allowing people to mistakenly assume that he saw combat in Vietnam, yes of course, some of the scorn he has received has been well-earned.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You yourself just referred to a true soldier returning from Vietnam as a "Vietnam vet" and that Phillips in his uniform could have been mistaken for one.
No I didn't.

"If you looked like a Vietnam Vet in the mid-1970s, there were plenty of hippies around ready to wind you up."

If you were walking around in uniform, fatigues, etc., back then, there were people who'd spit on you whether you saw combat in the jungles, pushed pencils at the Pentagon, or serviced refrigeration units in California.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
So what? Snopes is wrong in this case.
Oh, okay.

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
For some reason they are - like you - bending over backwards trying to give this man the benefit of the doubt where none exists at all.
No benefit of the doubt. He absolutely bears culpability for how this crapstorm shook out. But I am interested in judging him fairly and accurately. He's lied about some things and not lied about others. He's lied and not lied about the same things on different occasions. It is much more complex than "this guy's a liar and has zero credibility".

Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Just ask any veteran who has been in theatre how much they like people who lie about being there.
If he had done that, I'd be totally cool with the charges of stolen valor.


Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Nathan Phillips' wolf is still imaginary and he is nothing more than just another con man telling fanciful tales for his own gain.
Kudos – poetic.
The Shrike is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 05:28 AM   #2126
applecorped
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,621
Must defend Stolen Valor douche nozzle at all costs....
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 09:48 AM   #2127
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,745
Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Why directly? He was in the Marine Corps Reserve from June 1972–May 1976. That period of service overlaps the Vietnam War. He's a veteran of the Vietnam era, which is most often how he describes himself.
Fun fact: I served in a special operations airborne unit that deployed to former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, as part of the NATO intervention there.

I try not to put it that way, though, since it connotes a lot of experiences that I never actually had.

You might have gotten the impression that I parachuted behind enemy lines in Serbia to conduct covert combat operations. Nothing could be further from the truth.

"Special operations" in US military parlance encompasses a lot of relatively mundane stuff. My unit did psyops - leaflet drops, loudspeaker campaigns, radio programs, etc. It's not combat. It's not combat support. It's not logistics. So... "special operations". If you're looking for the guys who actually do the Navy SEALS type stuff, see under "special forces".

And all "airborne" meant was that our unit was budgeted to send some soldiers in some job roles to jump school. Most of the unit wasn't eligible, and most of those that were didn't bother.

While my unit did "deploy" to the Balkans, it was actually only a small handful of soldiers with specific job roles who went. And they didn't jump from planes or fast-rope from helicopters. They rode around in trucks and humvees.

Plus, my unit was a Reserve unit. Other than the Psyop specialists who actually went over there, our involvement in those operations was strictly a one-weekend-a-month type deal. And we weren't even really all that involved.

So, while "I served in a special operations airborne unit that deployed to former Yugoslavia in the 1990s" is technically correct, I'd have to be a real douchebag to put it that way and let you draw your own conclusions.

Being a veteran of the Vietnam war is a culturally and socially significant status in America. Being a reserve refrigerator repairman who spent their entire term of service in the US is not, regardless of era. Equivocating on that status with phrases like "Vietnam-era veteran" is douchebaggery designed to connote an undeserved status, while leaving room for "plausible" deniability if anyone calls you out on your douchebaggery.

As a former soldier myself, I'm offended at Phillips' misrepresentation of his service. I wish you wouldn't make excuses for it.

Last edited by theprestige; 1st March 2019 at 09:50 AM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 10:12 AM   #2128
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,466
I tend to agree with theprestige, I generally refer to myself as "technically a veteran of the first Gulf War." on this score. I think its safe to say that veterans generally regard it as douchey to refer to your veteran status and a war in the same breadth unless you were actually a combat veteran, or make it clear you were not actually a combat veteran.

Edit to add, I am also technically a combat veteran as I spent about 6 months in a combat zone. Again, all technical, I'd feel like an ******* to say something like, "I am a veteran of the Gulf War period."

Last edited by ahhell; 1st March 2019 at 10:16 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 10:27 AM   #2129
cantonear1968
Graduate Poster
 
cantonear1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I tend to agree with theprestige, I generally refer to myself as "technically a veteran of the first Gulf War." on this score. I think its safe to say that veterans generally regard it as douchey to refer to your veteran status and a war in the same breadth unless you were actually a combat veteran, or make it clear you were not actually a combat veteran.

Edit to add, I am also technically a combat veteran as I spent about 6 months in a combat zone. Again, all technical, I'd feel like an ******* to say something like, "I am a veteran of the Gulf War period."

I really don't know why. You put on a uniform, were sent to a foreign land and posted in a combat zone. I mean this sincerely that not firing your rifle in anger (if this is the case) does not diminish your status as a combat veteran in any way because being in a combat zone you lived with the possibility of attack. And I fully and completely respect anybody who voluntarily puts on a uniform no matter where they are posted.
__________________
Can you people please stop not thinking? - Gorgonian

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
-Good luck America with President Trump
cantonear1968 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 10:33 AM   #2130
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
the stolen valor grifter lied about being in country in VietNam, lied about some hippy chick spitting on him, lied about beating up her boyfriend, etc etc etc.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 10:43 AM   #2131
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,745
Bonus trivia: When I was in uniform, I was entitled and required by law to wear honors signifying service in Desert Storm.

Narrator: He didn't actually serve in Desert Storm.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 10:52 AM   #2132
applecorped
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,621
Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
I really don't know why. You put on a uniform, were sent to a foreign land and posted in a combat zone. I mean this sincerely that not firing your rifle in anger (if this is the case) does not diminish your status as a combat veteran in any way because being in a combat zone you lived with the possibility of attack. And I fully and completely respect anybody who voluntarily puts on a uniform no matter where they are posted.
George Bush appreciates your respect
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 11:06 AM   #2133
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 6,528
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Fun fact: I served in a special operations airborne unit that deployed to former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, as part of the NATO intervention there.

I try not to put it that way, though, since it connotes a lot of experiences that I never actually had.

You might have gotten the impression that I parachuted behind enemy lines in Serbia to conduct covert combat operations. Nothing could be further from the truth.

"Special operations" in US military parlance encompasses a lot of relatively mundane stuff. My unit did psyops - leaflet drops, loudspeaker campaigns, radio programs, etc. It's not combat. It's not combat support. It's not logistics. So... "special operations". If you're looking for the guys who actually do the Navy SEALS type stuff, see under "special forces".

And all "airborne" meant was that our unit was budgeted to send some soldiers in some job roles to jump school. Most of the unit wasn't eligible, and most of those that were didn't bother.

While my unit did "deploy" to the Balkans, it was actually only a small handful of soldiers with specific job roles who went. And they didn't jump from planes or fast-rope from helicopters. They rode around in trucks and humvees.

Plus, my unit was a Reserve unit. Other than the Psyop specialists who actually went over there, our involvement in those operations was strictly a one-weekend-a-month type deal. And we weren't even really all that involved.

So, while "I served in a special operations airborne unit that deployed to former Yugoslavia in the 1990s" is technically correct, I'd have to be a real douchebag to put it that way and let you draw your own conclusions.

Being a veteran of the Vietnam war is a culturally and socially significant status in America. Being a reserve refrigerator repairman who spent their entire term of service in the US is not, regardless of era. Equivocating on that status with phrases like "Vietnam-era veteran" is douchebaggery designed to connote an undeserved status, while leaving room for "plausible" deniability if anyone calls you out on your douchebaggery.

As a former soldier myself, I'm offended at Phillips' misrepresentation of his service. I wish you wouldn't make excuses for it.
Excellent post which amply highlights exactly what Phillips was trying on.

I myself, had barely gotten out of basic training when the Falklands kicked off. Never saw the place and would be remarkably unlucky to have done so being a territorial reservist (not even considered a "real" squaddie by regulars). I suppose, if I was Phillips level douchebag, I could say I was a Falklands era vet despite the only fight I was in was the fight to avoid getting a round in at the mess!

Last edited by bluesjnr; 1st March 2019 at 11:10 AM.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 11:29 AM   #2134
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,745
Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
I really don't know why. You put on a uniform, were sent to a foreign land and posted in a combat zone. I mean this sincerely that not firing your rifle in anger (if this is the case) does not diminish your status as a combat veteran in any way because being in a combat zone you lived with the possibility of attack. And I fully and completely respect anybody who voluntarily puts on a uniform no matter where they are posted.
As a civilian, it's entirely reasonable for you to respect everyone who wears the uniform, regardless of the details and hazards of their specific tours of duty (or to despise everyone who wears the uniform, if that's more consistent with your values).

But on this topic, you should definitely listen to the actual soldiers themselves, when they tell you what it's like to be a soldier, and how they feel about people who claim or imply military service they don't actually have. Even among soldiers deployed to combat zones, there's a distinction between clerks who stay safely in the heart of the Green Zone, and grunts who actually go out on combat patrols in enemy territory.

Having to take cover beneath your desk because insurgents are firing mortars somewhere in the general vicinity of your HQ is a serious thing. It's far more soldiering than you as a civilian will ever experience, and you should definitely respect that. Even other soldiers will generally respect that. But troops that have seen combat up close have little tolerance or respect for rear echelon mother ******* who traduce their tour in the Green Zone into claims or implications of frontline combat experience.

Phillips was certainly respectable for donning the uniform and serving his country. HVAC maintenance is a serious and important job. I personally have a huge appreciation for the value of all the "boring" jobs that are necessary to make a functioning military.

But even as a civilian, you should be able to understand that Phillips has pissed away that respect, first by going AWOL repeatedly, and second by trying to imply to you that he was a veteran of the Vietnam war. These are not the hallmarks of a respectable soldier. Your laudable impulse to respect those who wear the uniform doesn't rehabilitate Phillips' service record nor his inflated claims.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 11:32 AM   #2135
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,745
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Excellent post which amply highlights exactly what Phillips was trying on.

I myself, had barely gotten out of basic training when the Falklands kicked off. Never saw the place and would be remarkably unlucky to have done so being a territorial reservist (not even considered a "real" squaddie by regulars). I suppose, if I was Phillips level douchebag, I could say I was a Falklands era vet despite the only fight I was in was the fight to avoid getting a round in at the mess!
From a veteran of the Yugolsav Wars era, to a veteran of the Falklands War era, I salute you!
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 11:37 AM   #2136
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,658
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Jesus christ. Have we really reached the point where we should accept trolling wrong posts that pollute threads
Irony.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 12:09 PM   #2137
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,144
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Jesus christ. Have we really reached the point where we should accept trolling wrong posts that pollute threads because explaining the correct actual analysis is boring?

911 was an inside job
Tbd: no actually it was not, lists reasons
Hmm, thats a bit boring..

I dream of the time someone does not bust my balls for being right
Well, you are in no great risk.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 12:15 PM   #2138
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, you are in no great risk.

Hans
Thanks man, it ain't too often that someone stands up to their fellow travelers, but a fella can dream that they will stop attacking other posters for posting factually correct info.

Thanks for having my back.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 12:20 PM   #2139
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,537
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, you are in no great risk.

Hans
Tell him when he is right we will stop busitng his balls.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 12:38 PM   #2140
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks man, it ain't too often that someone stands up to their fellow travelers, but a fella can dream that they will stop attacking other posters for posting factually correct info.

Thanks for having my back.
You claimed that Sandmann didn't need to prove any false statements. There's nothing "factually correct" about that.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 12:41 PM   #2141
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You claimed that Sandmann didn't need to prove any false statements. There's nothing "factually correct" about that.
I didn't say that was factually correct, that would be silly.

That is legally correct as far as common law defamation goes.

happy to "clear" that up my man!
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 12:56 PM   #2142
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,001
The bit I find interesting is something we'll never know - what exactly was going through Phillips' mind at the time? Did he genuinely think the MagaCrew were picking on the defenseless BHI? Did he honestly believe that banging his drum a few inches from someone's face was going to usher in some 'spiritual peace' or whatever to the situation?

If he was simply trying to get attention, to put himself in the middle of a conflict to raise his own media profile or get some street cred or whatever other self-serving thing he might have had in mind I could understand that. It's still a despicable act but it at least would make an odd kind of sense from his own PoV.

But if he really did see things as he claimed, and really did think his actions were going to turn a bad situation all puppy dogs and posies, then ... wow. Wouldn't make what he did okay, of course. Especially the after-incident interviews he gave about it. But I'll admit to a morbid curiosity on the question of douchebag vs dangerously delusional.
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 12:57 PM   #2143
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,144
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks man, it ain't too often that someone stands up to their fellow travelers, but a fella can dream that they will stop attacking other posters for posting factually correct info.

Thanks for having my back.
No worries mate. I'll always defend you when you're right.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 12:59 PM   #2144
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,466
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Phillips was certainly respectable for donning the uniform and serving his country. HVAC maintenance is a serious and important job. I personally have a huge appreciation for the value of all the "boring" jobs that are necessary to make a functioning military.
Your welcome man.

Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
The bit I find interesting is something we'll never know - what exactly was going through Phillips' mind at the time? Did he genuinely think the MagaCrew were picking on the defenseless BHI? Did he honestly believe that banging his drum a few inches from someone's face was going to usher in some 'spiritual peace' or whatever to the situation?

If he was simply trying to get attention, to put himself in the middle of a conflict to raise his own media profile or get some street cred or whatever other self-serving thing he might have had in mind I could understand that. It's still a despicable act but it at least would make an odd kind of sense from his own PoV.

But if he really did see things as he claimed, and really did think his actions were going to turn a bad situation all puppy dogs and posies, then ... wow. Wouldn't make what he did okay, of course. Especially the after-incident interviews he gave about it. But I'll admit to a morbid curiosity on the question of douchebag vs dangerously delusional.
My money is a little of both but mostly harmless kook. That's how he's come across in interviews to me anyway.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 01:09 PM   #2145
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
The bit I find interesting is something we'll never know - what exactly was going through Phillips' mind at the time? Did he genuinely think the MagaCrew were picking on the defenseless BHI? Did he honestly believe that banging his drum a few inches from someone's face was going to usher in some 'spiritual peace' or whatever to the situation?

If he was simply trying to get attention, to put himself in the middle of a conflict to raise his own media profile or get some street cred or whatever other self-serving thing he might have had in mind I could understand that. It's still a despicable act but it at least would make an odd kind of sense from his own PoV.

But if he really did see things as he claimed, and really did think his actions were going to turn a bad situation all puppy dogs and posies, then ... wow. Wouldn't make what he did okay, of course. Especially the after-incident interviews he gave about it. But I'll admit to a morbid curiosity on the question of douchebag vs dangerously delusional.
The facebook page of his colleague was linked here at one time. He told Nathan that the MAGA kids were being mean to the actual hate group so nathan went and pounded the drum in their faces to own the cons.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 01:10 PM   #2146
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No worries mate. I'll always defend you when you're right.

Hans
Keep your eyes peeled for a friend request!
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 01:23 PM   #2147
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I didn't say that was factually correct, that would be silly.

That is legally correct as far as common law defamation goes.

happy to "clear" that up my man!
And you're still wrong! If Sandmann can't prove a false statement, at least to the "preponderance of the evidence" level, then he has no cause for a defamation tort.

I would be happy to "clear" that up for you if I could, but it seems to be impossible to get through your hubris bubble.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 01:46 PM   #2148
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,745
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
The bit I find interesting is something we'll never know - what exactly was going through Phillips' mind at the time? Did he genuinely think the MagaCrew were picking on the defenseless BHI? Did he honestly believe that banging his drum a few inches from someone's face was going to usher in some 'spiritual peace' or whatever to the situation?

If he was simply trying to get attention, to put himself in the middle of a conflict to raise his own media profile or get some street cred or whatever other self-serving thing he might have had in mind I could understand that. It's still a despicable act but it at least would make an odd kind of sense from his own PoV.

But if he really did see things as he claimed, and really did think his actions were going to turn a bad situation all puppy dogs and posies, then ... wow. Wouldn't make what he did okay, of course. Especially the after-incident interviews he gave about it. But I'll admit to a morbid curiosity on the question of douchebag vs dangerously delusional.
Body of work strongly suggests douchebag.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 01:57 PM   #2149
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
And you're still wrong! If Sandmann can't prove a false statement, at least to the "preponderance of the evidence" level, then he has no cause for a defamation tort.

I would be happy to "clear" that up for you if I could, but it seems to be impossible to get through your hubris bubble.
The Kentucky Supreme court, the Kentucky court of appeals and I bow to your google fu research powers,
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 02:02 PM   #2150
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Kentucky Supreme court, the Kentucky court of appeals and I bow to your google fu research powers,
FTFY. You don't want me suing you for libel.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 02:10 PM   #2151
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
FTFY. You don't want me suing you for libel.
You the Kentucky Supreme Court or the Appellate Court?
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 02:22 PM   #2152
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You the Kentucky Supreme Court or the Appellate Court?
You, the one making false statements to disparage my forum reputation. But don't worry; I can't seriously claim any damages.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 02:25 PM   #2153
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You, the one making false statements to disparage my forum reputation. But don't worry; I can't seriously claim any damages.
Actually i was disparaging the three experts by comparing to your google fu.

I'll get over it, tho
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 02:44 PM   #2154
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually i was disparaging the three experts by comparing to your google fu.

I'll get over it, tho
Good boy!

And don't worry; I'm pretty sure those courts won't sue you either. They could prove your statement false, but who cares.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 03:32 PM   #2155
cantonear1968
Graduate Poster
 
cantonear1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
George Bush appreciates your respect

I think we're all accepting a new found respect for Bush since Trump was elected.

__________________
Can you people please stop not thinking? - Gorgonian

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
-Good luck America with President Trump
cantonear1968 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 03:41 PM   #2156
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
George H.W. Bush appreciates your respect
FTFY.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 03:53 PM   #2157
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,745
Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
I think we're all accepting a new found respect for Bush since Trump was elected.

: p
Some of us respected Bush all along.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 04:17 PM   #2158
cantonear1968
Graduate Poster
 
cantonear1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,657
Delete
__________________
Can you people please stop not thinking? - Gorgonian

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
-Good luck America with President Trump

Last edited by cantonear1968; 1st March 2019 at 04:42 PM.
cantonear1968 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 04:56 PM   #2159
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Hoo boy that salty most military people are racist, i do know what phillips actually said is one spicy hot take!

Mama mia!
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2019, 07:49 PM   #2160
The Shrike
Illuminator
 
The Shrike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,956
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Fun fact: I served in a special operations airborne unit that deployed to former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, as part of the NATO intervention there.
And I appreciate your service, no matter how mundane you might describe it. I also appreciate the thoughtful reply you crafted here. I understand full-well how careful veterans tend to be in deflecting any praise or accolades for their service. I work with veterans and reservists every day and to a person they are in my experience overflowing with humility despite extraordinary capability.

I also understand that there are veterans of questionable character, too. It is sincerely douchey to lie about one's military service, and little to no better if it's a lie of omission in which someone else fills in unspoken details. There is no question that Phillips has been guilty of the latter, and probably also the former, on more than one occasion. As you also pointed out, he wasn't exactly a model reservist while he was servicing those HVACs.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I try not to put it that way, though, since it connotes a lot of experiences that I never actually had.
That is honorable of you. How do you describe it, though? In this reply you provided something like 6 or 7 sentences to explain, but surely you wouldn't go into all that if you were being asked in an interview "Are you a veteran?"

Phillips could have replied to that question over the years with something like "I was a Marine Corps Reservist stationed in California, 1972–1976" and maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, he seems to have most often described himself as a "veteran from the Vietnam War era", which is evidently accurate, but douchey.

Why he chose to describe his service that way is to me a puzzle. I'm not convinced that he's been doing that to glom on to some greater prestige than he's due. For one, I actually find the former, more detailed description a lot more impressive than the vague Vietnam era stuff.

And why would he need greater stature? The dude is already a hero to the DAPL protestors. His activist-cred is sky high.

Most important, Phillips must know that claiming military cred he hadn't earned would be a one-way ticket to the dung heap of history in the eyes of veterans who saw combat. If he's trying to build stature for himself, claiming something he shouldn't in a television interview and pissing off every military family in the country is the worst possible approach, right? I mean, maybe he's just an idiot? That's not much better than a douchebag, I admit, but it might be a more parsimonious explanation.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As a former soldier myself, I'm offended at Phillips' misrepresentation of his service. I wish you wouldn't make excuses for it.
I understand, and I can't claim that I'm not making those excuses for him by positing additional excuses. I hope you can appreciate though that I am really just trying to make a good faith effort to better understand Phillips' claims. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon that he's a stolen-valor creep and therefore is lower than pond scum and has zero credibility. If I end up there, so be it. At this point, however, I still see room for nuance in Phillips' case.
The Shrike is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:40 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.