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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , assault incidents , Chicago incidents , Jussie Smollett

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Old 25th February 2019, 11:11 AM   #2841
theprestige
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The correct take on this case is in the Huffington Post today.
I Donít Regret Believing Jussie Smollett. Hereís Why.
I couldn't get through the backstory.

Is there a point in the article where the author states, in plain language, the principle upon which her lack of regret is based?

It seems to me that people with a real interest in getting more recognition for the reality of hate crimes in America, would have no regrets about questioning Smollett's story from the very beginning.
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Old 25th February 2019, 11:18 AM   #2842
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I couldn't get through the backstory.

Is there a point in the article where the author states, in plain language, the principle upon which her lack of regret is based?

It seems to me that people with a real interest in getting more recognition for the reality of hate crimes in America, would have no regrets about questioning Smollett's story from the very beginning.
"Believe victims. Donít let this story plant doubt in your mind when itís possible that unconscious bias already lives there."
You may have emotional/biased reasons for doubting black people and LBTQ+ peoples claims, so you should level the playing field by discounting rational reasons for doubting them and instead rely on your emotional/biased reasons for believing them. That is about as condensed as I can render it.
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Old 25th February 2019, 11:19 AM   #2843
carlitos
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I couldn't get through the backstory.

Is there a point in the article where the author states, in plain language, the principle upon which her lack of regret is based?

It seems to me that people with a real interest in getting more recognition for the reality of hate crimes in America, would have no regrets about questioning Smollett's story from the very beginning.
Basically it's a column that could have been computer-generated, written by a grievance bot or community college student. It's practically a parody of a column on this type of incident.



  • Virtue-signaling - I'm a queer something-or-other, and I'm a victim too. And so's my husband! But we are the lucky ones, because we are white queers!
  • Hate crimes are on the rise, people!
  • Anecdote
  • Anecdote
  • Mis-application of statistics
  • Anecdote
  • Those who disbelieve Smollett were going to disbelieve all stories anyway (which is sadly true to a large extent)
  • Anecdote
  • More virtue-signaling (I work in the juvenile justice yada yada yada)
  • And the wind-up - appeal to the "larger truth:"


Quote:

Donít let the Jussie Smollett case distract us from what is actually happening every day. When we focus on his story, we miss the point.

I donít regret believing Jussie Smollett because anti-LGBTQ+ hate crimes happen and are on the rise. They happened to me in my comfortable progressive neighborhood, and they are happening more often to people who are way more marginalized than my husband and me.


Believe victims. Donít let this story plant doubt in your mind when itís possible that unconscious bias already lives there.

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Old 25th February 2019, 11:28 AM   #2844
theprestige
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
"Believe victims. Don’t let this story plant doubt in your mind when it’s possible that unconscious bias already lives there."
You may have emotional/biased reasons for doubting black people and LBTQ+ peoples claims, so you should level the playing field by discounting rational reasons for doubting them and instead rely on your emotional/biased reasons for believing them. That is about as condensed as I can render it.
Thanks! I think I can distill it a little more:

"Overlooking the problems with Smollett's story means my heart is still in the right place. I'm still providing a safe space for hate crime victims to share their experiences, and that's the most important thing. I let Smollett hoodwink me, but #noregrets."
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Old 25th February 2019, 11:39 AM   #2845
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Will try again when I can more clearly articulate my thoughts.

Last edited by Spock Jenkins; 25th February 2019 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 11:52 AM   #2846
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The correct take on this case is in the Huffington Post today.
I Donít Regret Believing Jussie Smollett. Hereís Why.



The author of that piece states her personal situation in the opening paragraph.
A proper summary of the article.

"I really want to avoid the conversation this event is going to create, so here is a bunch of events and statistics designed to make you feel guilty about even letting this event get you thinking about looking at claims like this from a critical standpoint".

It's essentially just a lot of words asking people to ignore this event. My response is the opposite "no".
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Old 25th February 2019, 12:40 PM   #2847
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It's not fair for the writer to claim people who disbelieved this were going to disbelieve any such story regardless. I thought this one sounded strange right off the bat, I just didn't bother saying anything because it didn't really concern me all that much. I figured the truth would be revealed eventually. I'd have no problem believing some dudes beat up a gay black man because he was gay and black, but the MAGA hats and the noose set off my BS alarms. It just sounded a little too... tidy.

I don't think that was a moral failing on my part. My opinion didn't matter at all. I didn't really care what the truth turned out to be on any kind of personal level, but I was unsurprised when it turned out to be a ruse.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:00 PM   #2848
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I can't believe people did not think it was odd from the get-go.

Just the idea of this guy walking by himself to Subway at 2AM in bitter winter weather...

And he happens to run into the only other two people silly enough to be out walking that night, on the same route, and they happen to know who he is, and they happen to have a noose and ready to sprinkle bleach...
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:01 PM   #2849
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The "Always believe victims, no harm no foul" narrative only works if you assume being falsely accused of something doesn't make you a victim.

True in this case no particular individual one person was directly accused of committing the crime but it threw fuel on a broader cultural fire.

Again this... treating of "Crimes" and "False accusation of crimes" as opposite sides of some coin baffles me here as much as it does in the rape discussion. These are not points for each side to accrue and they don't cancel each other out.

"Evil" and "Over-reaction / inappropriate reaction to evil" just add up to more evil, they don't cancel each other out.

The people who were absolutely sure from the onset that Smollet had faked the attack weren't being less "biased" or "neutral" then the people who immediately assumed he was telling the truth. They were just assuming that one black guy lying about being attacked gave them "racism" points to cash in later.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:12 PM   #2850
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I can't believe people did not think it was odd from the get-go.

Just the idea of this guy walking by himself to Subway at 2AM in bitter winter weather...

And he happens to run into the only other two people silly enough to be out walking that night, on the same route, and they happen to know who he is, and they happen to have a noose and ready to sprinkle bleach...
Yeah, walking for a bite at that time and temp was odd, but not unbelievable. And if the 'attackers' were stalking him, I could even buy that they had their accessories handy.

What got me was keeping the rope on 'because he wanted the cops to see it' and that he hoped that it was caught on video so people would see how he fought back.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:13 PM   #2851
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
A proper summary of the article.

"I really want to avoid the conversation this event is going to create, so here is a bunch of events and statistics designed to make you feel guilty about even letting this event get you thinking about looking at claims like this from a critical standpoint".

It's essentially just a lot of words asking people to ignore this event. My response is the opposite "no".
My response is "Hell, No".

I love the flat "Believe Victims" command.
I guess the whole idea of "Case by case basis" is beyond this individuals comprehension.
Yes, often in the past aqccusation of assault were ignored and not taken seriously,when they needed to be seriously investigated. But to go the other extreme that a victim needs to be automatically believed is just plain dumb.

It's another case of ideology winning out over reality.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:17 PM   #2852
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
It's not fair for the writer to claim people who disbelieved this were going to disbelieve any such story regardless. I thought this one sounded strange right off the bat, I just didn't bother saying anything because it didn't really concern me all that much. I figured the truth would be revealed eventually. I'd have no problem believing some dudes beat up a gay black man because he was gay and black, but the MAGA hats and the noose set off my BS alarms. It just sounded a little too... tidy.

I don't think that was a moral failing on my part. My opinion didn't matter at all. I didn't really care what the truth turned out to be on any kind of personal level, but I was unsurprised when it turned out to be a ruse.
On CNN Friday several people pointed out that the Chicago media were skeptical about this from day one, since a lot of it just did not sound right to anybody familiar with Chicago.
I admit I judged too quickly, and will try to wait until more facts come out before making a judgement.
Problem with the idea of "it's ok to lie in a good cause" is that, as John Adams said "Facts Are Stubborn Things", and the truth will eventuall come out and bite you in the butt.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:31 PM   #2853
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I have changed my mind.

I think we should all believe Jussie Smollett, because if we don't, it will prevent other people from coming forward, who also didn't get attacked.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:43 PM   #2854
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I think "believe the victims" is a gross simplification, to the point of error. And, frankly, I have trouble believing an unbelievable story, regardless of the stories actual status as true or false. It's a bit difficult to control ones belief.

That being said, I think a better, fairer, and more accurate message to send is "always take allegations seriously, and investigate them whether you believe them or not".

Frankly, I put "always believe" and "never believe" almost side-by-side on the "I am going to make an incorrect choice" scale.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:45 PM   #2855
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yes, often in the past aqccusation of assault were ignored and not taken seriously,when they needed to be seriously investigated. But to go the other extreme that a victim needs to be automatically believed is just plain dumb.

It's another case of ideology winning out over reality.
This is the biggest problem with how the vocal parts of both the Left and the Right (albeit in totally different ways) treat social problems... acting as if they "scale."

Like statistically I'm much more likely to be hit by a car then murdered by a serial killer. But if a serial killer is standing in front of me holding a chainsaw screaming "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU!" I shouldn't stay standing in front of him instead of running outside where the cars are because "It's statistically safer."

But that's how a lot of people want to treat this case, in which direction depends on their ideology.

All the cases of racist attacks before this didn't make this one any more or less likely and this one douchebag lying about being attacked doesn't make the next case of a black person claiming to be assaulted more or less likely.

This case hasn't given anybody "racism" or "racism is over blown" points to cash in next discussion and nobody came into this discussion with "racism" or "racism is over blown" points to spend.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:45 PM   #2856
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I have changed my mind.

I think we should all believe Jussie Smollett, because if we don't, it will prevent other people from coming forward, who also didn't get attacked.
This is a good point. With all the attention on Jussie Smollett, many are forgetting about the millions of others who haven't been attacked. And in a country of this size (~325 million), there are probably even others who have not been attacked in a similar manner with beach and a noose. Let us not forget them!
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Old 25th February 2019, 02:03 PM   #2857
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
This is a good point. With all the attention on Jussie Smollett, many are forgetting about the millions of others who haven't been attacked. And in a country of this size (~325 million), there are probably even others who have not been attacked in a similar manner with beach and a noose. Let us not forget them!
Exactly. And how can we expect these people to come forward, if we treat just ONE person, who didn't get attacked, with such disdain.
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Old 25th February 2019, 02:08 PM   #2858
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I admit I judged too quickly, and will try to wait until more facts come out before making a judgement.
Maybe next time you could also hold off on calling everyone else bigots for not making the same mistake you did.
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Old 25th February 2019, 02:21 PM   #2859
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
On CNN Friday several people pointed out that the Chicago media were skeptical about this from day one, since a lot of it just did not sound right to anybody familiar with Chicago.
I admit I judged too quickly, and will try to wait until more facts come out before making a judgement.
Problem with the idea of "it's ok to lie in a good cause" is that, as John Adams said "Facts Are Stubborn Things", and the truth will eventuall come out and bite you in the butt.
Its Not waiting that is the issue.

It's the premise that to disapprove the claim their needs to be an absurd amount of evidence, and that the null hypothesis is that a claim is true.

It's not a matter of waiting for more information, it's not disregarding the information presented because it doesn't mesh with your world view.

For many people it took the man being caught red handed to even question the claim, that is a problem, especially on a ******* skeptics board.
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Old 25th February 2019, 02:23 PM   #2860
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Jesus goddamn Christ does anyone here see "skeptic" as an actual complement or just a backhanded one?

Does skepticism exist as anything other than backhanded insult hiding as a compliment that nobody can ever live up to?
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:09 PM   #2861
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus goddamn Christ does anyone here see "skeptic" as an actual complement or just a backhanded one?

Does skepticism exist as anything other than backhanded insult hiding as a compliment that nobody can ever live up to?
Requiring good evidence before believing a claim does not fit your description. Which is the definition I'm using for skeptic and the reason I'm expressing incredulity that those that would claim the label seem quite willing to waive this requirement.

Questioning should never be taboo to a rationalist.
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:30 PM   #2862
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
It's not fair for the writer to claim people who disbelieved this were going to disbelieve any such story regardless. I thought this one sounded strange right off the bat, I just didn't bother saying anything because it didn't really concern me all that much. I figured the truth would be revealed eventually. I'd have no problem believing some dudes beat up a gay black man because he was gay and black, but the MAGA hats and the noose set off my BS alarms. It just sounded a little too... tidy.

I don't think that was a moral failing on my part. My opinion didn't matter at all. I didn't really care what the truth turned out to be on any kind of personal level, but I was unsurprised when it turned out to be a ruse.

Of course it isn't a moral failing on you. These idiots have lost their minds. That's all I have the stomach to say today, these people are just freaking me out a little too much lately.

ETA: by "these" I mean douchebags whose agenda is so strong that - whatever who cares.
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:40 PM   #2863
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus goddamn Christ does anyone here see "skeptic" as an actual complement or just a backhanded one?

Does skepticism exist as anything other than backhanded insult hiding as a compliment that nobody can ever live up to?
I'm skeptical of the veracity of your observation
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:41 PM   #2864
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus goddamn Christ does anyone here see "skeptic" as an actual complement or just a backhanded one?

Does skepticism exist as anything other than backhanded insult hiding as a compliment that nobody can ever live up to?
It is neither a complement nor an insult. It is merely a description.
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:46 PM   #2865
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus goddamn Christ does anyone here see "skeptic" as an actual complement or just a backhanded one?

Does skepticism exist as anything other than backhanded insult hiding as a compliment that nobody can ever live up to?
I'm skeptical of your post.
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:49 PM   #2866
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Someone sent Jussie a bag of dicks in care of the CPD headquarters.

https://twitter.com/CWBChicago/statu...66163760381954

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Old 25th February 2019, 04:28 PM   #2867
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus goddamn Christ does anyone here see "skeptic" as an actual complement or just a backhanded one?

Does skepticism exist as anything other than backhanded insult hiding as a compliment that nobody can ever live up to?
I was going to make a pot suggesting that we need to change the name of this site but I decided to vacuum the living room instead and while I was sucking up all those cigarette butts, beer caps and dead ( well most of them were) roaches I came to the conclusion that that was a stupid idea.

We need the word skeptic as a reminder as to why we're all here. We're here to discuss the facts of an event or issue based on the information we have at hand.

It's tempting to jump to a conclusion on an issue when it's first reported, to view it through a partisan lens and loudly trumpet "I'm on the side of GOOD" and stick with that partisan position even when presented with contrary evidence.

Then I decided to go hang a towel rack and while I was doing that I got to thinking about the Atheism+ debacle and how that should have served as a warning that barcrap crazy can indeed spring from the loins of a secular and evidence based movement. About how A+ scorned and attacked the very concept of skepticism while trying to hang on to it's apron strings and market itself as being "rational"

Then I decided to wash the dishes and as I was scraping off the dried on SpaghettiOs I started wondering whether this place could become like the now defunct A+ and decided that no, it couldn't all due to one factor.

Any guesses as to what that one factor might be ?

So now I'm out of chores and so much time has passed that I can't even remember what thread it is but safe to say, it's one of those ones where we were presented a story that turned out to be a misrepresentation of what really happened.

Teal Dear: "Skeptic" is good
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Old 25th February 2019, 05:03 PM   #2868
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The "Always believe victims, no harm no foul" narrative only works if you assume being falsely accused of something doesn't make you a victim.

True in this case no particular individual one person was directly accused of committing the crime but it threw fuel on a broader cultural fire.

Again this... treating of "Crimes" and "False accusation of crimes" as opposite sides of some coin baffles me here as much as it does in the rape discussion. These are not points for each side to accrue and they don't cancel each other out.

"Evil" and "Over-reaction / inappropriate reaction to evil" just add up to more evil, they don't cancel each other out.

The people who were absolutely sure from the onset that Smollet had faked the attack weren't being less "biased" or "neutral" then the people who immediately assumed he was telling the truth. They were just assuming that one black guy lying about being attacked gave them "racism" points to cash in later.
In my case I wasn't trying to score ideological points to be cashed in later, but skeptical points for accurately discerning reality. I looked and I saw that the Emperor had no clothes, and I just blurted it out like the little boy in the story. But I would also happily point out fakery that runs the other way. Racism is real and there are real hate crimes too. Of course there are. Only a fool would deny that. My comment was only about this particular claim, which didn't smell right from the beginning for reasons that have been repeated ad nauseum in this thread already.
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Old 25th February 2019, 05:13 PM   #2869
dudalb
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Its Not waiting that is the issue.

It's the premise that to disapprove the claim their needs to be an absurd amount of evidence, and that the null hypothesis is that a claim is true.

It's not a matter of waiting for more information, it's not disregarding the information presented because it doesn't mesh with your world view.

For many people it took the man being caught red handed to even question the claim, that is a problem, especially on a ******* skeptics board.
Police Shootings are the topic that really causes knee jerk reactions from both sides on this website.
Guaranteed, everytime there is thread on a police shooting, you have those who automatically assume the evil racist cops just gunned down an innocent black youth, and those who automatically assume that every police shooting is justified and the kid had it coming.
Neither side waits for, you know, the full facts to come out, but has to fit in it with whatever ideological narrative they believe.
One of the people they talked to on CNN about this case mentioned that even today, there are many people who believe the Person who was killed in the Ferguson incident was shot with this hands up in the air, though it has been proven pretty much beyond any reasonable doubt that will not happen. \
This drives me crazy in the police shooting threads here. Forget the facts, let's just go straight into the political narrative.
When it comes to making people have a warped view of reality,, religion has nothing on political ideology.
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Last edited by dudalb; 25th February 2019 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 05:32 PM   #2870
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
My response is "Hell, No".

I love the flat "Believe Victims" command.
I guess the whole idea of "Case by case basis" is beyond this individuals comprehension.
Yes, often in the past aqccusation of assault were ignored and not taken seriously,when they needed to be seriously investigated. But to go the other extreme that a victim needs to be automatically believed is just plain dumb.

It's another case of ideology winning out over reality.
By deeming it worthy of investigation you are, at least, provisionally believing in the story -until such time as the facts or evidence prove otherwise.
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Old 25th February 2019, 05:39 PM   #2871
Marcus
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
In my case I wasn't trying to score ideological points to be cashed in later, but skeptical points for accurately discerning reality. I looked and I saw that the Emperor had no clothes, and I just blurted it out like the little boy in the story. But I would also happily point out fakery that runs the other way. Racism is real and there are real hate crimes too. Of course there are. Only a fool would deny that. My comment was only about this particular claim, which didn't smell right from the beginning for reasons that have been repeated ad nauseum in this thread already.
Ditto. Yes, we are skeptics here and require evidence. The question is, what will be the default position until the issue is resolved? In this case, Jussie's story so obviously stunk that the default was that he was lying until proved otherwise. If someone was going to apply "innocent until proven guilty", which just applies to a court of law anyway, they should be applying it to the theoretical attackers.
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Old 26th February 2019, 04:31 AM   #2872
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And that's one to grow on
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Old 26th February 2019, 04:48 AM   #2873
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You should watch The Prestige (the movie, not the forum member. That would be creepy). It's full of twists that are telegraphed beforehand, but it's so expertly done that even when you know it's foreshadowing (like all the hats on the ground at the start of the movie), you can't really tell what it's foreshadowing of until the twist is revealed.
I did watch it. I had also read the book many years before and I STILL didnít see some of the plot twists coming.
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Old 26th February 2019, 04:57 AM   #2874
LTC8K6
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A couple of anti-gay posts by one of the brothers from several years ago have been found...

This is apparently where Jussie's defense is going, but I don't think it will work.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:31 AM   #2875
Mumbles
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The "Always believe victims, no harm no foul" narrative only works if you assume being falsely accused of something doesn't make you a victim.
Given that this applies only to friends of the victim, and not to any institution, I don't really see an issue.

In any event, given that CPD's story has proven false at least twice, and that TMZ has proven to be entirely unreliable, I'm still at my initial position, except adding that it's possible that the two guys Smolett hired to help him train, may be thew two that attacked him. And *if* CPD can scrounge together a case against Smolett, then okay then.
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:39 AM   #2876
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Given that this applies only to friends of the victim, and not to any institution, I don't really see an issue.

In any event, given that CPD's story has proven false at least twice, and that TMZ has proven to be entirely unreliable, I'm still at my initial position, except adding that it's possible that the two guys Smolett hired to help him train, may be thew two that attacked him. And *if* CPD can scrounge together a case against Smolett, then okay then.
Curious that this is the hill you want to defend...

How has CPD's "story' been "proven" false? It has not of course, but there were Japanese soldiers who held out until 1974, and I get the feeling that our skeptical posters here are every bit as fanatical.

You know
I wish that I had Jussie's grift
I wish that I had Jussie's grift
Where can I find a scammer llike that?

I play along with the charade
There doesn't seem to be a reason to change
You know, I feel so dirty when they start their dumb ruse
I wanna tell him he's stupid
But the point is probably moot

You know
I wish that I had Jussie's grift
I wish that I had Jussie's grift
Where can I find a scammer llike that?
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:00 AM   #2877
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Given that this applies only to friends of the victim, and not to any institution, I don't really see an issue.

In any event, given that CPD's story has proven false at least twice, and that TMZ has proven to be entirely unreliable, I'm still at my initial position, except adding that it's possible that the two guys Smolett hired to help him train, may be thew two that attacked him. And *if* CPD can scrounge together a case against Smolett, then okay then.
Here's your first post in the thread:

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
This is according to Chicago PD, whop aren't well-known for being thorough and professional, to say the least, even when Dolt 45 isn't involved - and given the idiot's express support for police brutality, I'd expect that a PD known for brutality such as Chicago (these are the guys that had a black site and a torture chamber, after all) could easily "forget" to write it down.

This story doesn't sound all that unbelievable to me, all things considered. Gay black guy is beaten and has a noose put around his neck? Actually, that sounds like a fairly normal hate crime. Actually, the "blacks rule" guy sounds more unlikely.

Yes, the legal system will be slow and thorough, in the end, and that's as it should be. I'm not a part of that system, I'm just a guy that detests this sort of attack, so I hope that they put these two guys under the jail.
Your initial position seems to be that a real hate crime is the most plausible conclusion from the available information. Is that still the case for you?
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:02 AM   #2878
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CPD has more evidence that they aren't telling us about.

I think Smollett is messing with the wrong police chief.+



Chicago police chief details turning point for Jussie Smollett
https://youtu.be/L-QH6ggDWIg
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:20 AM   #2879
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
CPD's story has proven false at least twice...
What were those two false stories?
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:23 AM   #2880
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What were those two false stories?
well they did say that Jussie was a victim a couple of times, but i don't think that is what our correspondent meant.
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