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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 9th September 2020, 02:39 PM   #3281
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Except that the Massei court does not uphold that part of it. The Massei court, even in eventually convicting, was presented with prosecution theories which changed frequently - so much so that the Massei motivations report explaining the guilty verdict had to invent a completely different motive.

The motive for the killing was Guede's and Guede's alone, acc. to Massei. Massei specifically wrote that he could see both no evidence and no motive for AK and/or RS to initiate an attack on the victim.

But Massei theorized that eventually, both AK and RS joined in on the attack. In theorizing about that, did Massei return to anything that the prosecution had presented at trial? Satanic rite? Sex-game gone wrong? No.

Massei said it had been a "choice for evil", a choice made while AK had been away from her otherwise normal home, and far from the normal moral strictures she had otherwise been used to. Massei theorized that it was a one-off evil choice made by an otherwise non-evil person - or at the very least with nothing in her background to explain the choice.


Me to. It has occurred to me that if I had been in on it since the beginning, my own confirmation biases could have developed differently.
Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
While that might be technically correct, I would imagine >95% of the people who knew of the case and then heard of the conviction ONLY paid attention to the conviction, and that, in turn, confirmed that everything they had heard about Amanda must be true.

I agree... we all have confirmation bias. It could not have been easy to read/listen to the media those first couple of years and NOT conclude anything other than the worst about Amanda. To change your opinion after that would require major commitment to accepting facts and dismissing rumor and innuendo.
I question whether we truly all have confirmation bias, if "confirmation bias" is defined as a dysfunctional persistence in supporting an original judgment or hypothesis by, for example, unfairly (unconsciously or, as sometimes used, consciously) dismissing contrary evidence.*

I believe many persons are aware that one must consider both any contrary as well as supportive evidence, including the validity of the evidence, in evaluating a hypothesis. On the other hand, there are certainly others who ignore valid contradictory evidence in order to support an initial or favored hypothesis.

It's clear that in the Knox - Sollecito case, the police and prosecutors exhibited confirmation bias, if one accepts that this term may be used for conscious decisions to ignore contrary evidence and to accept clearly invalid supporting evidence. (Instead, some may call this method of evaluation of evidence "unfairness" or "cheating", thereby avoiding a complex psychological concept that itself must be empirically demonstrated as "real".)

* In the 1960 experiments apparently first demonstrating confirmation bias, at least 6, but possibly 16, of the 29 subjects did not show confirmation bias, according to this article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...firmation-bias

Last edited by Numbers; 9th September 2020 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 9th September 2020, 09:21 PM   #3282
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I question whether we truly all have confirmation bias, if "confirmation bias" is defined as a dysfunctional persistence in supporting an original judgment or hypothesis by, for example, unfairly (unconsciously or, as sometimes used, consciously) dismissing contrary evidence.*

I believe many persons are aware that one must consider both any contrary as well as supportive evidence, including the validity of the evidence, in evaluating a hypothesis. On the other hand, there are certainly others who ignore valid contradictory evidence in order to support an initial or favored hypothesis.

It's clear that in the Knox - Sollecito case, the police and prosecutors exhibited confirmation bias, if one accepts that this term may be used for conscious decisions to ignore contrary evidence and to accept clearly invalid supporting evidence. (Instead, some may call this method of evaluation of evidence "unfairness" or "cheating", thereby avoiding a complex psychological concept that itself must be empirically demonstrated as "real".)

* In the 1960 experiments apparently first demonstrating confirmation bias, at least 6, but possibly 16, of the 29 subjects did not show confirmation bias, according to this article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...firmation-bias
Also, an Italian prosecutor has a legal obligation of finding evidence in favor of a suspected person, according to CPP Article 358:

The Public Prosecutor shall carry out any activity necessary for the purposes referred to in CPP Article 326 and shall also carry out ascertainments on the facts and circumstances in favor of the suspected person.

CPP Article 326 states:

The Public Prosecutor and the criminal police, within their respective responsibilities, shall conduct the investigations necessary for decisions on criminal prosecution.
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Old 11th September 2020, 11:46 AM   #3283
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There is a report on TJMK that Meredith's mom, Arline Kercher, has died and been laid to rest beside her daughter in Croydon.

May they rest in peace.
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Old 11th September 2020, 12:08 PM   #3284
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There's nothing there about this now. And nothing online either.

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Old 11th September 2020, 12:42 PM   #3285
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
There's nothing there about this now. And nothing online either.
Maybe the report was wrong and withdrawn. If so I apologize for forwarding it.
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Old 11th September 2020, 02:16 PM   #3286
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Maybe the report was wrong and withdrawn. If so I apologize for forwarding it.
It must have been. Just another example of their accuracy in reporting.

ETA: The comment is still there but I've looked online and there is nothing. If she supposedly died on June 11th, there certainly would have been something mentioned in the Brit tabloids.

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Old 11th September 2020, 06:53 PM   #3287
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I was reading through the comments under the body language video that Vixen posted and I was struck by a couple of things: 1) the amount of misinformation about the case posted by those who think Knox is guilty (like Kercher was wrapped in a blanket and stuffed in the closet, Knox only knew Kercher for two weeks, etc) and 2) the complete lack of any forensic evidence connecting Knox to the murder was never once mentioned. Not once. It was all about her body language, how she acted, etc. Actual, hard evidence wasn't worth a mention. God save anyone from ever having idiots like these on a jury.
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:32 PM   #3288
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delete double post

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Old 12th September 2020, 06:40 AM   #3289
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As promised, the behavioral panel has posted a 2nd video on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DOkwE53hEQ

One of them keeps calling Raphael "Raphael the wuss" because he didn't break down the door. Christ on a cracker.
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Old 12th September 2020, 11:00 AM   #3290
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
As promised, the behavioral panel has posted a 2nd video on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DOkwE53hEQ

One of them keeps calling Raphael "Raphael the wuss" because he didn't break down the door. Christ on a cracker.
That alone reveals the bias held and lack of professionalism. This panel of "experts" has as much relevance as a panel of astrologers. What next? Presenting the Man from Atlan, Naseer Ahmad, as an 'expert' with his astrological chart on Knox and Sollecito?
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Old 12th September 2020, 12:08 PM   #3291
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Ahhhh the Man from Atlan! The memory of that monumental manifestation of grandiose delusion and fraud had passed from my consciousness!!

(Wonder if he's "treated" any desperate and vulnerable people recently? Or perhaps whether he's been criminally prosecuted recently?)
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Old 12th September 2020, 01:05 PM   #3292
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Yes, he's something else. Talk about delusional.

Something else that was brought up in the video's comment section by more than one person (including a person who claimed to be an MD and another who claimed to be someone who worked with people with autism) is whether or not Knox's facial expressions, behavior etc could be explained by autism. As someone who has a close family member with mild autism, I have to say that I've also wondered if Amanda could be on the autism spectrum. This family member is 3-4 years younger than Amanda, female, and very bright. I see many similarities between her and Amanda, including not reacting to situations in the same way that you'd expect. She also does not express emotions openly or easily and has had to learn how react in a socially 'correct' manner. The older she gets, the better at this she's become but among strangers she can still be somewhat socially awkward. Small talk will never be easy for her. IF Amanda is mildly autistic, this would explain Amanda's sometimes rather odd reactions to things.
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Old 12th September 2020, 02:51 PM   #3293
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Something else that was brought up in the video's comment section by more than one person (including a person who claimed to be an MD and another who claimed to be someone who worked with people with autism) is whether or not Knox's facial expressions, behavior etc could be explained by autism. As someone who has a close family member with mild autism, I have to say that I've also wondered if Amanda could be on the autism spectrum. This family member is 3-4 years younger than Amanda, female, and very bright. I see many similarities between her and Amanda, including not reacting to situations in the same way that you'd expect. She also does not express emotions openly or easily and has had to learn how react in a socially 'correct' manner. The older she gets, the better at this she's become but among strangers she can still be somewhat socially awkward. Small talk will never be easy for her. IF Amanda is mildly autistic, this would explain Amanda's sometimes rather odd reactions to things.
As a reluctant public person, she'd been called quirky. Truly, though, (and this is where my biases hang out) she was normal for Seattle. To be a millennial from Seattle IS to be quirky to the rest of the world.
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Old 12th September 2020, 03:00 PM   #3294
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
As a reluctant public person, she'd been called quirky. Truly, though, (and this is where my biases hang out) she was normal for Seattle. To be a millennial from Seattle IS to be quirky to the rest of the world.
Maybe. I'm not so sure about that. Are you familiar with anyone who is mildly autistic?
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Old 12th September 2020, 04:17 PM   #3295
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I hate to say it but I agree with Bill here. I've never seen any evidence to suggest Amanda is particularly weird, much less "on the spectrum".
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Old 12th September 2020, 04:49 PM   #3296
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Maybe. I'm not so sure about that. Are you familiar with anyone who is mildly autistic?
Yup.
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Old 12th September 2020, 10:15 PM   #3297
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Well, I'm not saying she is but I'd be dishonest if I said I've never wondered if she wasn't. And apparently I'm not the only one.

I wouldn't use the word "weird" but rather "different", Whoanellie.

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Old 13th September 2020, 08:04 AM   #3298
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Arline Kercher

The story about Arline Kercher is back on TJMK. So it seems that Bill is right. It's a shame that Quennell couldn't even report her death without using it as a catalyst to keep the pro-guilt pot boiling.

Hoots
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Old 13th September 2020, 11:54 AM   #3299
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There is absolutely nothing about Arline Kercher's alleged death to be found online nor does TJMK provide any evidence of her death except for Raper's say so. John Kercher's death was widely reported in the media. I find this highly suspicious. Until evidence of Arline's death can be provided, I wouldn't put much stock in Raper's claim.

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Old 13th September 2020, 11:56 AM   #3300
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Originally Posted by TomG View Post
The story about Arline Kercher is back on TJMK. So it seems that Bill is right. It's a shame that Quennell couldn't even report her death without using it as a catalyst to keep the pro-guilt pot boiling.

Hoots
From TJMK:
" Father John was killed in a still-unsolved hit-and-run at night in Croydon four months before."

Didn't the authorities ultimately rule that John Kercher died from an accidental fall?
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:07 PM   #3301
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
From TJMK:
" Father John was killed in a still-unsolved hit-and-run at night in Croydon four months before."

Didn't the authorities ultimately rule that John Kercher died from an accidental fall?
Yes, from a fall, no hit and run. Typical TJMK.

I've asked a friend who lives in England take a look and see if there were any reports there of Arline's death.
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:14 PM   #3302
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My friend in England says she found nothing about Arline dying either.
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:44 PM   #3303
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
My friend in England says she found nothing about Arline dying either.
I cannot believe that the British tabloids wouldn't have been all over the story if it is true.
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:53 PM   #3304
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
I cannot believe that the British tabloids wouldn't have been all over the story if it is true.
Exactly. I suspect this is going to be another classic "Raffaele Sollecito to apologize publicly to Mignini for lying in his book" moment for Quennell.
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Old 13th September 2020, 02:53 PM   #3305
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On this particular matter (and having just visited the cesspit to see what was written about it there), it seems possible to me that this information may have arrived via either first-hand or second-hand knowledge of Meredith Kercher's grave site. Raper's report states that Arline Kercher is buried alongside Meredith; IMO it's possible (even maybe likely) that either he or someone he knows visited the grave and noticed that Arline was now buried alongside Meredith.

I also don't think that Arline Kercher's death would necessarily have found its way into the British tabloids. Firstly, John Kercher was always the parental figurehead of the two, and (obviously) he was also the conduit into the British tabloid press: once he died, I'd say it was always by definition much less likely that any news about Arline would ever even be known to the British tabloids. And secondly, the main - perhaps the only - reason why John Kercher's death ever got any press traction was due to the combination of a) his friends/contacts within the tabloids and b) the very poor decision of the investigating police to publicly announce that his death may have been the result of foul play.


That aside, I completely agree with Tom in respect of the disgusting (but predictably disgusting) way in which those nutter zealots over there chose to weaponise the reports of Arline's death. Particularly disgusting in my eyes was the claim that "Although Arline didn’t see justice for Meredith’s killers, I’m certain that she, like us, knew exactly who was responsible for Meredith’s murder"


Oh and I don't think it would be remiss also to alude here to the *different* ways in which those pro-guilt nutjobs always chose to categorise, and impute motive to, the marriage breakups and divorces of Meredith's parents and Amanda's parents, respectively.......
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Old 13th September 2020, 03:42 PM   #3306
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
On this particular matter (and having just visited the cesspit to see what was written about it there), it seems possible to me that this information may have arrived via either first-hand or second-hand knowledge of Meredith Kercher's grave site. Raper's report states that Arline Kercher is buried alongside Meredith; IMO it's possible (even maybe likely) that either he or someone he knows visited the grave and noticed that Arline was now buried alongside Meredith.

I also don't think that Arline Kercher's death would necessarily have found its way into the British tabloids. Firstly, John Kercher was always the parental figurehead of the two, and (obviously) he was also the conduit into the British tabloid press: once he died, I'd say it was always by definition much less likely that any news about Arline would ever even be known to the British tabloids. And secondly, the main - perhaps the only - reason why John Kercher's death ever got any press traction was due to the combination of a) his friends/contacts within the tabloids and b) the very poor decision of the investigating police to publicly announce that his death may have been the result of foul play.


That aside, I completely agree with Tom in respect of the disgusting (but predictably disgusting) way in which those nutter zealots over there chose to weaponise the reports of Arline's death. Particularly disgusting in my eyes was the claim that "Although Arline didnít see justice for Meredithís killers, Iím certain that she, like us, knew exactly who was responsible for Meredithís murder"


Oh and I don't think it would be remiss also to alude here to the *different* ways in which those pro-guilt nutjobs always chose to categorise, and impute motive to, the marriage breakups and divorces of Meredith's parents and Amanda's parents, respectively.......
Thanks for your perspective
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Old 13th September 2020, 04:18 PM   #3307
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My friend in England is going to call Croyden Cemetery later (it's 12:30 AM there now) and ask if Arline is buried there and let me know. That should settle it.

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Old 13th September 2020, 05:51 PM   #3308
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
My friend in England is going to call Croyden Cemetery later (it's 12:30 AM there now) and ask if Arline is buried there and let me know. That should settle it.

Well the person on True Vengeance For Amanda Knox (Raper, I think?) said very specifically that Arline was buried next to Meredith. Even by the crackpot cesspool standards of that site, I'd consider it highly improbable that anyone would flat-out lie about a detail like that (and, as I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the very thing which served as notification that Arline had died: someone went to visit Meredith's grave, and discovered her mother's new grave beside it).

Also, I'm not altogether sure whether cemetery maintenance staff would be in the business of imparting that sort of information (or indeed whether they are even supposed to). I'm in UK too (obv), but I'd have thought that the only real way of knowing with any reliability would be to visit the cemetery in person.

Dunno - maybe one of the crackpots will make the visit (though as I said, it seems likely to me that either Raper, or someone he knows, has already visited and seen Arline's grave). For me personally, although it's clearly very saddening that Arline has apparently died - she had to live through one of her daughters getting brutally and horrifically murdered, and then had to endure a cruel, protracted judicial battle on account of certain incompetent and mendacious police/prosecutors/judges and the broken Italian justice system - it obviously doesn't change the way I look at the case one bit.
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Old 13th September 2020, 09:00 PM   #3309
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Deaths are public information. Cemeteries aren't private. Find a Grave gives out that kind of information all the time. It's what they do. Meredith is listed as buried there by Find a Grave, Arline is not. But that could be because, if buried in June, she just hasn't been listed yet. I just find it extremely odd that not a single mention of her passing would be mentioned by the media anywhere in England or here. Or by anyone on Twitter.
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Old 13th September 2020, 09:34 PM   #3310
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Deaths are public information. Cemeteries aren't private. Find a Grave gives out that kind of information all the time. It's what they do. Meredith is listed as buried there by Find a Grave, Arline is not. But that could be because, if buried in June, she just hasn't been listed yet. I just find it extremely odd that not a single mention of her passing would be mentioned by the media anywhere in England or here. Or by anyone on Twitter.
I don't know if it is common for families in the UK to have obituaries published, as it is in the US. I attempted an online search for such an obituary and also, for a report of a funeral, but found only media reports related to John Kercher's death and Meredith Kercher's murder. However, even if no obituary for Arline Kercher exists, that doesn't necessarily mean that the TJMK report of her death is false.

Stacyhs, have you heard any information from your friend in the UK?

It would seem strange indeed to publish a false post of someone's death.

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Old 13th September 2020, 10:35 PM   #3311
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I don't know if it is common for families in the UK to have obituaries published, as it is in the US. I attempted an online search for such an obituary and also, for a report of a funeral, but found only media reports related to John Kercher's death and Meredith Kercher's murder. However, even if no obituary for Arline Kercher exists, that doesn't necessarily mean that the TJMK report of her death is false.

Stacyhs, have you heard any information from your friend in the UK?

It would seem strange indeed to publish a false post of someone's death.
It's only 6:40 AM right now in England. Give her time.

It would be strange to publish a false post of someone's death, but it would also be strange for there to be absolutely no mention of Meredith's mother's death anywhere, especially in England. No twitter mentions, no FB mentions, no tabloid mentions, nothing at all anywhere. I'll report back as soon as I hear from my friend.
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Old 14th September 2020, 04:49 AM   #3312
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I may be mistaken but it seems to me I've seen people in the US put their names on family headstones in anticipation of their deaths leaving the date of death blank. I'm just wondering if someone saw Arline's name on the headstone and didn't realize there wasn't a date of death. Of course, I don't know if it's a common practice in England.
https://www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-19...367-story.html
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Old 14th September 2020, 06:43 AM   #3313
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Deaths are public information.
Yes and aren't actual death certificates public information? I guess that's why I too found it odd that there was no mention at all in the British press, particularly the red tops, since I figured they pay people to constantly trawl public records.
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Old 14th September 2020, 08:12 AM   #3314
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Yes, but the only people who care about this are her family and friends, and a few nutters - including, apparently, some of the inhabitants of this thread. It's not news whether it happened or not, and I can't understand why anyone here is that interested.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:36 AM   #3315
Stacyhs
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My friend was able to talk to someone at Croydon Cemetery. They confirmed that Arline Kercher is not buried there.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:37 AM   #3316
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, but the only people who care about this are her family and friends, and a few nutters - including, apparently, some of the inhabitants of this thread. It's not news whether it happened or not, and I can't understand why anyone here is that interested.
Of course, Arline Kercher is important to her family and friends.

And a post claiming that Arline Kercher has died is not relevant to the Knox - Sollecito legal case or to the crimes against Meredith Kercher.

I think the interest is whether or not a PGP poster on a PGP site known for its copious false information posted true information in claiming someone - Meredith Kercher's mother - had died.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:39 AM   #3317
TruthCalls
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, but the only people who care about this are her family and friends, and a few nutters - including, apparently, some of the inhabitants of this thread. It's not news whether it happened or not, and I can't understand why anyone here is that interested.
Ongoing fascination with the obsession exhibited over at the cesspool I suppose.

I'm sure everyone here would be sympathetic to the Kercher family, if true, but not "interested", per se. But you have to admit, the crap that gets published over there is so bizarre that it's hard to ignore once you hear about it.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:39 AM   #3318
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, but the only people who care about this are her family and friends, and a few nutters - including, apparently, some of the inhabitants of this thread. It's not news whether it happened or not, and I can't understand why anyone here is that interested.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
My friend was able to talk to someone at Croydon Cemetery. They confirmed that Arline Kercher is not buried there.
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Of course, Arline Kercher is important to her family and friends.

And a post claiming that Arline Kercher has died is not relevant to the Knox - Sollecito legal case or to the crimes against Meredith Kercher.

I think the interest is whether or not a PGP poster on a PGP site known for its copious false information posted true information in claiming someone - Meredith Kercher's mother - had died.
So does it seem safe to assume the post claiming Arline Kercher had died is another falsehood?
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:48 AM   #3319
Stacyhs
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Numbers is correct. The interest lies in the fact the TJMK once again posted false information and now they've got a piece up eulogizing Arline giving her bio.
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Old 14th September 2020, 10:02 AM   #3320
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
So does it seem safe to assume the post claiming Arline Kercher had died is another falsehood?
If the person at Croydon Cemetery is to be believed...and I see no reason not to. It certainly explains why there was absolutely nothing to be found mentioning it.

What will be interesting now will be to see how long that Front Page piece will be left up. Will Raper's comment be left or removed?

Another friend of mine told me she had seen this same misinformation being discussed in another group she belongs to and the source was James Raper's comment on TJMK.
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