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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 19th October 2020, 12:48 PM   #3401
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The difference between Mignini and Sollecito is that Mignini is merely performing the job he is paid to do as the state prosecutor. If you do not want to cross the path of an evil prosecutor, cop or prison warden, don't do the crime!

Meredith Kercher had no choice in Knox, Guede and Sollecito crossing her path.

That is the difference.
Knox and Sollecito didn't do the crime either. But you're right about Guede. Too bad the boys downstairs had ever connected with Guede however innocently. If they hadn't, Meredith would still be alive.
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Old 19th October 2020, 12:53 PM   #3402
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He says so in his own submissions to the court.
Ah, er, no. Your characterization of what he'd said bears no resemblance to what he'd said. But thanks for answering, just the same.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't know about you but there is a direct correlation between being sent to jail and stabbing someone in the neck with your collection of fetish knives, tearing off your victim's bra and leaving a substantial amount of your DNA on the twisted out of shape bra-hook, leaving your footprint in your victim's blood on the bathmat and telling police numerous lies and providing false alibis. Maybe one day the penny will drop with Sollecito and he will seek help for his personality disorder that gives him a need to shock and outrage people.
There is no evidence, none at all, that he participated in Rudy Guede's crime. There is no evidence that he has a personality disorder.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Lastly, you were the one who introduced the concept of 'evil' so may I suggest you start a thread on this fascinating topic in the Philosophy / Religion section?
Thanks for the suggestion. However, you did not address the parallel I was trying to make. Then again I may have presented it poorly, and that's why you missed it. No matter.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 20th October 2020, 07:11 AM   #3403
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
James Raper - his real name - is or was a defence lawyer.
Prove it. In his own book, the beginning anyway, he says absolutely nothing about what kind of lawyer he is or was. If he had any credentials, reputation, etc. whatsoever that would have bolstered his credibility, he would have surely included those.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He is an entirely trustworthy source.
He is nothing of the sort.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Heknew the family and often dropped by messages for them in person.
And you know this how? What sort of "messages"?


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Raper said Arline is buried next to Meredith,
If this were true, one of the nutcases at TJMK would have surely posted a picture. By now.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Who knows?
Not you, that's for sure.
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Old 20th October 2020, 10:22 AM   #3404
Stacyhs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He knew the family and often dropped by messages for them in person.
Until the police served him with a protection order!

Quote:
If this were true, one of the nutcases at TJMK would have surely posted a picture. By now.
Agreed. With photoshopped memorial featuring candles and lots of flowers.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 20th October 2020 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 20th October 2020, 11:18 AM   #3405
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Until the police served him with a protection order!



Agreed. With photoshopped memorial featuring candles and lots of flowers.
Look. You asked. I tried to help. No good deed goes unpunished.

In the UK and in Europe there are strict personal privacy laws. If a friend or relative of a person who has been in the news doesn't announce a piece of personal news, such as on Facebook, the press don't either. The press gets its information from press releases, interviewing people directly or social media.

I fully understand that having swallowed whole the endless lies of Knox and Sollecito, you are wary of trusting anything as true!
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Old 20th October 2020, 12:06 PM   #3406
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I fully understand that having swallowed whole the endless lies of Knox and Sollecito, you are wary of trusting anything as true!
Right. Lies. One request. Please list them. Discuss why each is a "lie", rather than something like "mistaken" or other such thing.

The reason why I request this.... I'd once had a private PM with a noted-guilter who ended up conceding a lack of evidence, all except, "all the lies they told."

I then took it upon myself to enumerate those actual "lies" as claimed by another noted-guilter, Harry Rag/The Machine. He once also repeated "all the lies" that AK and/or RS were to have told as the reason for his beliefs.

It took a while, but in his other posts he accused AK/RS of telling exactly 13 lies. Most of these were attributed to RS from the time he'd been held without access to a lawyer, his only source of information being what the PM and cops told him.

The one lie of AK's which made the list was the "accusation against Lumumba", but otherwise no other items made the list against her. Since then the ECHR has ruled for AK and against Italy on that, which, at the very least, removes it also from any list of lies.

Speaking of lies, consider the source of most guilter-nutter lies: the TJMK website. One such lie was its claim that Mignini had lost his defamation suit against Gumbal and Sollecito, only because the latter two people had promised to apologize to Mignini, "within the week".

That never happened.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 20th October 2020, 12:49 PM   #3407
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
[...]

Speaking of lies, consider the source of most guilter-nutter lies: the TJMK website. One such lie was its claim that Mignini had lost his defamation suit against Gumbal and Sollecito, only because the latter two people had promised to apologize to Mignini, "within the week".

That never happened.
Just for the record:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...php?p=12754460
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Old 20th October 2020, 12:54 PM   #3408
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look. You asked. I tried to help. No good deed goes unpunished.

Tried to help? How? By trying to negate the lack of any burial record of Arline at the cemetery were Raper claims she is buried by attributing it being looked up by a lowly "gate keeper"? And presenting the absurd idea that Arline had resorted to being buried under her maiden, or even more absurd, her middle name?

Quote:
In the UK and in Europe there are strict personal privacy laws. If a friend or relative of a person who has been in the news doesn't announce a piece of personal news, such as on Facebook, the press don't either. The press gets its information from press releases, interviewing people directly or social media.
Irrelevant. A person's death is not covered by privacy laws. That's why death records are available to the public in the UK.

Quote:
Under UK law, death certificates are known as Public Records which means that any person can apply for a copy of any certificate, providing that they know the details of the death that is required.
https://www.vitalcertificates.co.uk/...formation.html

Do you really think that, as big a case as the Kercher case was in the UK, that the death of Meredith's mother would not have rated a mention in a single tabloid? That not a single friend, friend of a friend, or acquaintance, not a single person connected to the cemetery, funeral home, etc would have contacted a tabloid and sold that story? John Kercher's death made the papers, why not Arline's? Could it be because she's not dead?

Last edited by Stacyhs; 20th October 2020 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 20th October 2020, 01:01 PM   #3409
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Yeah, that didn't work out too well for Slick Pete, did it?

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Old 20th October 2020, 04:10 PM   #3410
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Speaking of Peter Quenell and James Raper, here are some quotes from PQ's 10/12/2020 post on True Justice and the subsequent comments:


Quote:
And last year he and his fatuous co-writer Andrew Gumbel lost big to Dr Mignini in a Florence court for defamations in Sollecito’s book. They had to pay substantial damages and sign a document admitting they had lied in the book.
- PQ

Quote:
My recollection of Mignini’s action against Sollecito over his book is that the action was dismissed by consent after it became clear that Sollecito would never be in a position to pay a damages award and on the understanding that Sollecito would acknowledge that his book contained libel though when he would actually do so was not clear. In any event it does not seem that he has done so to date.
- JR

Quote:
Sollecito signed the retraction and apology when the Sollecito team caved. We should see it in Dr Mignini’s forthcoming book.

Sollecito paid costs. I am not sure where you saw the “unable to pay”? Part of the deal was that there would be no major media report - Dr Mignini was still on the Umbria Appelate beat then.
- PQ

Did Sollecito pay "substantial damages"? "costs"? Or was he unable to pay anything?
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Old 20th October 2020, 04:33 PM   #3411
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Yesterday under a post entitled "New Facebook and Twitter Developments" Peter Quennell posted hundreds of comments from a Facebook page. Here are a few of the comments PQ copied and pasted into his post:

Quote:
Pietro Milia Petta
Putting fingers in the nose is a prerogative of children. The gesture is not very popular, especially when it is done in adulthood. In fact, while the youngest children do not make qualms and look through their nostrils when they feel the need, adults explore the nasal orifice hiding from prying eyes. Putting one’s fingers in the nose is not seen favourably by most people, especially if done publicly. There is no certain data, but 99% of people cannot do without at least once a day. Aside from the coarse and crude gesture, is exploring one’s nose with fingers really as bad for one’s health as some scientists claim? In the opinion of Dr. Erich Voigt, not only does it hurt, but it endangers the physical state of the individual.
Quote:
Iolanda Fondacaro
Solicito was acquitted and has every right to be compensated for unjust imprisonment. It does not matter what the assiduous viewers of monstrous TV programs believe, who determine who they think is guilty, and construct hypotheses that influence the judgment of those who watch this garbage paid handsomely with our tax money.
Quote:
Simone Coea Favaro
The windscreen wiper as well as the arm can be made up of blade support frame, which is the structure that supports the blade, (until 1998 was exclusively formed by various metal elements or plastic material of which the main element was the carrier) or directly from the rubber applied to the arm as from last generation much more effective and durable.
Quote:
Alberto Diamante
Some considerations on the sentence of Rudy Guede to “conspiracy to commit murder”:

It’s true that at the trial against Rudy Guede, the Court found him guilty of “conspiracy to commit murder” and referred several times to Amanda and Raffaele as the correi of the murder. But this should make anyone with a minimum of respect for the law and due process shudder.

1. Amanda and raffaele had not yet been tried.
2. DNA had not yet been analyzed by defense experts or independents
3. Amanda and Raffaele were not defendants:
4. Amanda and Raffaele could not defend themselves from the accusations
5. A/R lawyers were not and could not be present and present an alternative theory of evidence
6. The Court has taken for sacrosanct truth the statements of the prosecution (many of which were later denied),
7. I have never heard in any country in the world that a court finds two people guilty who are not even charged, have never been tried and deserve the presumption of innocence before any trial against them.
8. Not even in the worst banana republics would a judge allow himself to condemn people who are not even charged and have no criminal record.
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Old 20th October 2020, 05:00 PM   #3412
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Speaking of Peter Quenell and James Raper, here are some quotes from PQ's 10/12/2020 post on True Justice and the subsequent comments:


- PQ

- JR

- PQ

Did Sollecito pay "substantial damages"? "costs"? Or was he unable to pay anything?
They can't keep their lies straight.

Quote:
My recollection of Mignini’s action against Sollecito over his book is that the action was dismissed by consent after it became clear that Sollecito would never be in a position to pay a damages award and on the understanding that Sollecito would acknowledge that his book contained libel though when he would actually do so was not clear. In any event it does not seem that he has done so to date.
So much for Raper being a "trustworthy" source.
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Old 20th October 2020, 05:03 PM   #3413
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Yesterday under a post entitled "New Facebook and Twitter Developments" Peter Quennell posted hundreds of comments from a Facebook page. Here are a few of the comments PQ copied and pasted into his post:
Petey needs to get out more.

I read through a few of them. A lot of the typical, hate-filled, ignorant crap we're all familiar with. Some of the 'Poor Rudy because he's black' nonsense. Nothing new. A few supporters. Ho hum.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 20th October 2020 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 20th October 2020, 07:12 PM   #3414
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They can't keep their lies straight.



So much for Raper being a "trustworthy" source.
It's a definitional thing.

Trustworthy: worthy of confidence : dependable
synonyms include, among others: "reliable, safe, sure"*

However, "trustworthy" in the PGP sense means "dependably or reliably uttering falsehoods or misinformation"

* Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trustworthy
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Old 20th October 2020, 07:46 PM   #3415
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Napoleoni and Zugarini

Perugia detective who arrested Knox and Sollecito, today sentenced to 3 years three months in prison for abuse of authority.

https://etrurianews.it/2020/09/20/om...fKFVg5bEFgLhZU

Of note, this newspiece refers to the March 2015 action of the Italian Supreme Court as an acquital....
Quote:
The two, arrested by Napoleoni themselves, were declared innocent after 7 years of trials and media pressure, and a first-degree sentence. They both spent nearly 4 years in prison waiting. In 2015 the final decision of the Cassation arrived, which acquitted both.
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Old 20th October 2020, 09:28 PM   #3416
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Perugia detective who arrested Knox and Sollecito, today sentenced to 3 years three months in prison for abuse of authority.

[url]https://etrurianews.it/2020/09/20/omicidio-meredith-a-perugia-condannata-la-poliziotta-che-arresto-amanda-knox-e-raffaele-sollecito-ve-lo-avevamo-detto/?fbclid=IwAR2la-lg5Ds9vUEdNKPYDX072cV6iexLOd9MwzsEOAp90fKFVg5bEFgL hZU[/url]

Of note, this newspiece refers to the March 2015 action of the Italian Supreme Court as an acquital....
This conviction is a reminder of that some of the key Perugian police involved in the Kercher case were apparently willing to commit abusive acts for their own benefit. Therefore, they could likewise have committed such acts to close the Kercher murder case quickly and get their medals.

Here's a Google translation, with my help, of this 20 September 2020 article:

Quote:
The Murder of Meredith in Perugia: The policewoman who arrested Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito sentenced: "We told you"

On November 6, 2007, she arrested Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in Perugia, a few days after the murder of the American (sic; should be “English” or “British”) student Meredith Kercher. Monica Napoleoni, former head of the Homicide Squad of the Perugia police headquarters, has now received a sentence of 3 years and 3 months in prison for abusing her position of power for personal purposes: she was spying on a psychologist. Knox and Sollecito, acquitted after years of trials, had denounced abuses by Napoleoni and today {Knox} commented {on Twitter}: "We told you so." (sic; actually, Knox's Italian phrase translates to “We told you.” The article uses a somewhat different Italian phrase here.)

According to what was established by the judges of the court of Perugia, the former policewoman had used her position as a public official to steal personal information about a psychologist appointed by the court, in a dispute with her husband. Furthermore, she allegedly involved other people in her plan, primarily her colleagues Zugarini, found guilty and sentenced to 3 years and 2 months, and Squarta.

The facts date back to 2012, when Monica Napoleoni was still head of the Homicide Squad that had investigated Meredith's death. According to the indictment, Napoleoni made two unauthorized accesses to the computer system to check a psychologist, extracting {personal} data, which were then used for other crimes. The former policewoman was found guilty of damaging the woman's car, {by} slashing its tires.

Spreading the news, the comment of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox was not long in coming. Sollecito wrote on Facebook: "Head of the homicide squad when they investigated the Kercher case ... then in court for years I have been told that they are honest and commendable people." Knox, on Twitter: “In his book, Raffaele describes the threats and abuses committed by Monica Napoleoni against us. She, and two other officers, have now been convicted of similar abuses of power in another case. We told you."

The two, arrested by Napoleoni, were declared innocent after 7 years of trials and media pressure, and a first-degree conviction. They each spent nearly 4 years in prison waiting. In 2015 the final decision of the Cassation arrived, acquitting both.
Note: the highlighted words in the last paragraph are translated from "innocenti" and "assolse", respectively. The facts as acknowledged by the Etruria News is that Knox and Sollecito were finally (definitively) acquitted and are thus innocent of the charges of the crimes committed against Kercher.

Last edited by Numbers; 20th October 2020 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 20th October 2020, 10:07 PM   #3417
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
This conviction is a reminder of that some of the key Perugian police involved in the Kercher case were apparently willing to commit abusive acts for their own benefit. Therefore, they could likewise have committed such acts to close the Kercher murder case quickly and get their medals.

Here's a Google translation, with my help, of this 20 September 2020 article:



Note: the highlighted words in the last paragraph are translated from "innocenti" and "assolse", respectively. The facts as acknowledged by the Etruria News is that Knox and Sollecito were finally (definitively) acquitted and are thus innocent of the charges of the crimes committed against Kercher.

Another article gives some additional details:

Quote:
Abusive investigation of the psychiatrist appointed by the judge for the separation {divorce}, the policewoman of the investigation into the Kercher crime convicted


Three years and three months of imprisonment for the former head of the homicide section of the Perugia Flying Squad Monica Napoleoni, accused of having used her position to initiate arbitrary investigations of a psychologist appointed by the Court in the context of a dispute between her and the ex-husband.

Her colleague Lorena Zugarini was sentenced to three years and two months for unauthorized access to the IT system, and the policewoman Stefania Squarta was sentenced to one year.

The judges sentenced three other people who allegedly helped Napoleoni in various capacities, with sentences ranging from one year and three months to 6 months and 15 days, with the benefit of suspension {of the sentence}. Three other defendants were acquitted.

The psychologist who filed a civil action, through the lawyer Valeriano Tascini, was awarded a provisional amount of 10 thousand euros, while 5 thousand euros goes to both daughters of the professional.

Source:
https://www.perugiatoday.it/cronaca/...oh1O6dwx34YsCA

Note that this article states that there was a larger conspiracy among the police than called out in the prior posted article: Not only were Napoleoni, the leader, and Zugarini and Squarta convicted, but three others who were not named in the article.

Translation by Google with my help.
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Old 20th October 2020, 10:20 PM   #3418
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Right. Lies. One request. Please list them. Discuss why each is a "lie", rather than something like "mistaken" or other such thing.

The reason why I request this.... I'd once had a private PM with a noted-guilter who ended up conceding a lack of evidence, all except, "all the lies they told."

I then took it upon myself to enumerate those actual "lies" as claimed by another noted-guilter, Harry Rag/The Machine. He once also repeated "all the lies" that AK and/or RS were to have told as the reason for his beliefs.

It took a while, but in his other posts he accused AK/RS of telling exactly 13 lies. Most of these were attributed to RS from the time he'd been held without access to a lawyer, his only source of information being what the PM and cops told him.

The one lie of AK's which made the list was the "accusation against Lumumba", but otherwise no other items made the list against her. Since then the ECHR has ruled for AK and against Italy on that, which, at the very least, removes it also from any list of lies.

Speaking of lies, consider the source of most guilter-nutter lies: the TJMK website. One such lie was its claim that Mignini had lost his defamation suit against Gumbal and Sollecito, only because the latter two people had promised to apologize to Mignini, "within the week".

That never happened.
It was settled wasn't it? Settlements are generally confidential and the end of the matter.

As for the list of lies....how much time have you got...? Myself, I need to go and my get my winter tyres fitted otherwise I'd love to spend hours listing all the - shall we say - anomalies.
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Old 20th October 2020, 10:25 PM   #3419
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Google translate:

Quote:
The acquittal has arrived for Raffaele Sollecito, who had to answer for the accusation of insulting the police before the judiciary of Florence, accused for some passages of "Honor bound, my journey to hell and back with Amanda Knox" . For the Tuscan judge "the fact does not exist" and therefore the passages of the memoir published in the United States on the legal matter linked to the murder of the English student Meredith Kercher, are not sufficient to support the accusation against her. Writer Andrew Gumbel, who with Sollecito had written the book, never published in Italy, was also acquitted yesterday. Inside, a reconstruction of the investigations carried out by the magistrate Giuliano Mignini considered "harmful". The judge had filed a complaint for some of the songs of "Honor bound", and then withdrew it, leaving standing only the accusation of insult, which has ceased today. "Another page linked to the painful murder of Meredith Kercher has closed and Raffaele has still been declared unrelated to the facts", commented after the sentence one of the two lawyers who followed Sollecito, Alfredo Brizioli.
You note, the hearing that was scheduled 'was ceased today'.

Do you understand how settlements work? They happen before or during a hearing and this immediately brings proceedings to a halt if the judge agrees.
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Old 20th October 2020, 10:31 PM   #3420
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Tried to help? How? By trying to negate the lack of any burial record of Arline at the cemetery were Raper claims she is buried by attributing it being looked up by a lowly "gate keeper"? And presenting the absurd idea that Arline had resorted to being buried under her maiden, or even more absurd, her middle name?



Irrelevant. A person's death is not covered by privacy laws. That's why death records are available to the public in the UK.


https://www.vitalcertificates.co.uk/...formation.html

Do you really think that, as big a case as the Kercher case was in the UK, that the death of Meredith's mother would not have rated a mention in a single tabloid? That not a single friend, friend of a friend, or acquaintance, not a single person connected to the cemetery, funeral home, etc would have contacted a tabloid and sold that story? John Kercher's death made the papers, why not Arline's? Could it be because she's not dead?
No, what I said was, it is common for people to be known during life by their middle name or a nickname, or diminutive, but official records show their full name.

It is also conventional for an agent or family member to inform the press. Sometimes we do not know of the death of a famous person until weeks later.

Arline was known as Meredith Kercher's mother. She is not in the category of celebrity. John Kercher's death was in the street with a suspicion of a hit and run driver so the information probably came from the police looking for witnesses.
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Old 20th October 2020, 10:38 PM   #3421
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Perugia detective who arrested Knox and Sollecito, today sentenced to 3 years three months in prison for abuse of authority.

https://etrurianews.it/2020/09/20/om...fKFVg5bEFgLhZU

Of note, this newspiece refers to the March 2015 action of the Italian Supreme Court as an acquital....
Wasn't that to do with something completely outwith the Knox/Sollecito case? Looking up police records without authorisation to dig up dirt on an ex-husband or something?

It's the same in the UK, any Home Office employer looking up police records just to snoop on others are likely to be prosecuted, and quite rightly too.
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Old 20th October 2020, 10:40 PM   #3422
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
This conviction is a reminder of that some of the key Perugian police involved in the Kercher case were apparently willing to commit abusive acts for their own benefit. Therefore, they could likewise have committed such acts to close the Kercher murder case quickly and get their medals.

Here's a Google translation, with my help, of this 20 September 2020 article:



Note: the highlighted words in the last paragraph are translated from "innocenti" and "assolse", respectively. The facts as acknowledged by the Etruria News is that Knox and Sollecito were finally (definitively) acquitted and are thus innocent of the charges of the crimes committed against Kercher.
You are ignorant of the law if you did not know the courts did NOT find the pair innocent.

You'll be quoting National Enquirer next.
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Old 20th October 2020, 10:57 PM   #3423
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Google translate:



You note, the hearing that was scheduled 'was ceased today'.

Do you understand how settlements work? They happen before or during a hearing and this immediately brings proceedings to a halt if the judge agrees.
You just keep digging that hole deeper, Vix. I'm sure in your mind you'll somehow dig yourself out of it.

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Old 20th October 2020, 11:50 PM   #3424
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Here's an accurate translation of the quotation from Il Giornale given by Methos in post #1001, 14 July 2019, Continuation 29.

First, the Italian text:

Maybe because "Il giornale" in an article titled: "Sollecito assolto dall'accusa di vilipendio alle forze dell'ordine" reported that:

Quote:
È arrivata l'assoluzione per Raffaele Sollecito, che di fronte alla magistratura di Firenze doveva rispondere dell'accusa di vilipendio alle forze dell'ordine, accusato per alcuni passaggi di "Honor bound, il mio viaggio all'inferno e ritorno con Amanda Knox".

Per il giudice toscano "il fatto non sussiste" e dunque i passaggi del memoir pubblicato negli Stati Uniti sulla vicenda giudiziaria legata all'omicidio della studentessa ingese Meredith Kercher, non sono sufficienti a sostenere l'accusa nei suoi confronti.

Assolto ieri anche lo scrittore Andrew Gumbel, che con Sollecito aveva scritto il libro, mai uscito in Italia. All'interno una ricostruzione delle indagini svolte dal magistrato Giuliano Mignini ritenuta "lesiva". Il giudice aveva sporto querela per alcuni dei brani di "Honor bound", per poi ritirarla, lasciando in piedi soltanto l'accusa di vilipendio, che è venuta meno oggi.

"Si è chiusa un'altra pagina legata alla dolorosa vicenda dell'omicidio di Meredith Kercher e Raffaele è stato ancora dichiarato estraneo ai fatti", ha commentato dopo la sentenza uno dei due legali che seguiva Sollecito, Alfredo Brizioli.
Now, the Google translation - with my help using Collins Reverso:

The acquittal has arrived for Raffaele Sollecito, who before the judiciary of Florence had to answer for the {criminal} accusation of vilification {libelous defamation of authorities} of the police, an accusation based upon some passages of "Honor Bound, My Journey to Hell and Back with Amanda Knox".

For the Tuscan judge, "the fact does not exist" {that is, the judge pronounced an acquittal because no crime of vilification had occurred in Italy in this case} and therefore the passages of the memoir published in the United States on the legal matter linked to the murder of the English student Meredith Kercher, are not sufficient to support the accusation against them {Sollecito and Gumbel}.

Writer Andrew Gumbel, who with Sollecito had written the book, {which was} never released in Italy, was also acquitted yesterday. Inside, {the book} a reconstruction {description} of the investigations carried out by the magistrate {prosecutor} Giuliano Mignini was considered "damaging" {to the reputation of Mignini and the police}. The judge (sic; should be prosecutor Mignini) had filed a complaint {for vilification; a criminal offense and a civil tort - lawsuit - in Italy} {against Sollecito and Gumbel} for some of the passages of "Honor Bound", and then withdrew it {the civil part of the complaint}, leaving standing only the {criminal} accusation of vilification, which failed today {because of the acquittal}.

"Another page related to the painful affair of the murder of Meredith Kercher has closed and Raffaele has still been declared unrelated to the facts {acquitted for not having committed the act}", commented one of the two lawyers who followed Sollecito, Alfredo Brizioli, after the verdict {of acquittal was pronounced}.

According to Colllins Reverso, the Italian word "ritirarla" translates to "withdraw" or "retire". The phrase "venuta meno" translates to "failed" (literally, "came to a minus" or "came to nothing").

Last edited by Numbers; 20th October 2020 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 21st October 2020, 12:01 AM   #3425
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
James Raper - his real name - is or was a defence lawyer. He is an entirely trustworthy source. He knew the family and often dropped by messages for them in person. James Raper said Arline is buried next to Meredith, so if the clerk at the gate cannot find Arline on her list of graves, ask them simply look up Meredith instead. It is possible, having divorced Arline reverted to a maiden name. Who knows? Or perhaps she used her middle name. It is a common practice.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, what I said was, it is common for people to be known during life by their middle name or a nickname, or diminutive, but official records show their full name.
No, that's not what you said. Not at all. She was not known by her middle name, nor a diminutive, nor her maiden name. She was known as Arline Kercher. She was referred to as Arline Kercher by her ex-husbandand by the media. Never anything else. Why don't you try pulling the other one and see if anyone falls for it?

Quote:
It is also conventional for an agent or family member to inform the press. Sometimes we do not know of the death of a famous person until weeks later.
According to James Raper, it's been months later. Since June 11. Is she still not buried? What are they waiting for?

Quote:
Arline was known as Meredith Kercher's mother. She is not in the category of celebrity. John Kercher's death was in the street with a suspicion of a hit and run driver so the information probably came from the police looking for witnesses.
No, John K was not found in the street. He was found on the pavement (US: sidewalk). No, she wasn't a celebrity, but she would still merit a mention in the tabloids....and a record of burial in the frickin cemetery records under her name. Where she is not.
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Old 21st October 2020, 12:15 AM   #3426
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wasn't that to do with something completely outwith the Knox/Sollecito case? Looking up police records without authorisation to dig up dirt on an ex-husband or something?

It's the same in the UK, any Home Office employer looking up police records just to snoop on others are likely to be prosecuted, and quite rightly too.
Yes, completely unrelated to the Knox/Sollecito case. She harassed a court appointed psychologist who testified that Napoleoni's husband should retain his visitation rights. But what's relevant is that if Napoleoni would break the law and enlist other police to help her do it and get them to lie about it (which they did) then that certainly undermines their credibility when it comes to their honesty regarding the Knox and Sollecito interrogations. Story details below, pre-conviction:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amanda-...st-knox-trial/
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Old 21st October 2020, 12:21 AM   #3427
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Now, now, Numbers. Apparently, you don't understand how being acquitted works. I'm sure Vixen will be along to explain it to you.
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Old 21st October 2020, 05:20 AM   #3428
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wasn't that to do with something completely outwith the Knox/Sollecito case? Looking up police records without authorisation to dig up dirt on an ex-husband or something?
Yup. Note what Numbers observed above.....
This conviction is a reminder of that some of the key Perugian police involved in the Kercher case were apparently willing to commit abusive acts for their own benefit.*
I thought that you'd appreciate the parallels, given that guilter-nutters spent years claiming that Knox's 2007 noise ticket back in Seattle somehow predisposed her to commit murder!
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Old 21st October 2020, 09:40 AM   #3429
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Yup. Note what Numbers observed above.....
This conviction is a reminder of that some of the key Perugian police involved in the Kercher case were apparently willing to commit abusive acts for their own benefit.*
I thought that you'd appreciate the parallels, given that guilter-nutters spent years claiming that Knox's 2007 noise ticket back in Seattle somehow predisposed her to commit murder!
I thought pulling an April Fool's Day prank on a roommate in college was evidence of her predisposition to murder? Of course, the award for compassion her high school created specifically for her which I cited earlier in this thread was also evidence of her predisposition for murder.
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Old 21st October 2020, 11:56 AM   #3430
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look. You asked. I tried to help. No good deed goes unpunished.

In the UK and in Europe there are strict personal privacy laws. If a friend or relative of a person who has been in the news doesn't announce a piece of personal news, such as on Facebook, the press don't either. The press gets its information from press releases, interviewing people directly or social media.

I fully understand that having swallowed whole the endless lies of Knox and Sollecito, you are wary of trusting anything as true!
Just a reminder it is Vixen who tells endless lies and not Amanda and Raffaele

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11938562

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11942852

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post11598412

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post11427461

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post11951893

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post11982023

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12107306

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12200863

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12297573

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12297575

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post13170726
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Old 21st October 2020, 01:39 PM   #3431
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Now, now, Numbers. Apparently, you don't understand how being acquitted works. I'm sure Vixen will be along to explain it to you.
How being acquitted works is certainly a good question.

Another good question is why the judge acquitted Sollecito and Gumbel of the criminal charge of vilification of the police.

Was it because Honor Bound was not published in Italy, and was not even published in an Italian language version, and so the alleged crime of vilification of the police and prosecutor Mignini was not committed in Italy?

Or was it because the prosecutor of the case could not find evidence that contradicted the truth of the statements alleged to be damaging to the reputations of the police and prosecutor Mignini?

Or were both reasons accepted by the acquitting court?

Apparently there was no appeal by the prosecution, so the acquittal is final, as similarly the acquittal of Knox on the charge of calunnia against the police became final because the prosecutor did not appeal.
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Old 21st October 2020, 01:58 PM   #3432
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
How being acquitted works is certainly a good question.

Another good question is why the judge acquitted Sollecito and Gumbel of the criminal charge of vilification of the police.

Was it because Honor Bound was not published in Italy, and was not even published in an Italian language version, and so the alleged crime of vilification of the police and prosecutor Mignini was not committed in Italy?

Or was it because the prosecutor of the case could not find evidence that contradicted the truth of the statements alleged to be damaging to the reputations of the police and prosecutor Mignini?
IIRC the trial was delayed when the judge asked Mignini to supply Italian translations of the alleged offending statements from Honor Bound.

I lost interest in the progress of that trial, until all charges were dropped. IIRC the main offence Mignini claimed, was the allegation in Honor Bound that Mignini had offered Sollecito a deal if he would testify against Knox. Why that claim was deemed offensive is beyond me.
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Old 21st October 2020, 02:23 PM   #3433
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
IIRC the trial was delayed when the judge asked Mignini to supply Italian translations of the alleged offending statements from Honor Bound.

I lost interest in the progress of that trial, until all charges were dropped. IIRC the main offence Mignini claimed, was the allegation in Honor Bound that Mignini had offered Sollecito a deal if he would testify against Knox. Why that claim was deemed offensive is beyond me.
I think that's because plea deals like that are illegal in Italy. Not that I wouldn't put Mignini above 'suggesting' such a thing. Sort of like suggesting AK and RS were only witnesses informed of events instead of suspects so they didn't require lawyers. Or Donnino suggesting Knox had amnesia which is why she couldn't remember going to the cottage. Or the police suggesting Knox heard Kercher screaming or meeting Lumumba and taking him to the cottage.
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Old 21st October 2020, 02:28 PM   #3434
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
How being acquitted works is certainly a good question.

Another good question is why the judge acquitted Sollecito and Gumbel of the criminal charge of vilification of the police.

Was it because Honor Bound was not published in Italy, and was not even published in an Italian language version, and so the alleged crime of vilification of the police and prosecutor Mignini was not committed in Italy?

Or was it because the prosecutor of the case could not find evidence that contradicted the truth of the statements alleged to be damaging to the reputations of the police and prosecutor Mignini?

Or were both reasons accepted by the acquitting court?

Apparently there was no appeal by the prosecution, so the acquittal is final, as similarly the acquittal of Knox on the charge of calunnia against the police became final because the prosecutor did not appeal.
Finding the exact charges under which Sollecito and Gumbel were tried and acquitted would be of interest. Most likely, the primary charge would be defamation by a publication, covered by Italian law including CP Articles 595, 596 and 596-bis.

Quote:
Art. 595.
Diffamazione.

Chiunque, fuori dei casi indicati nell'articolo precedente, comunicando con più persone, offende l'altrui reputazione, è punito con la reclusione fino a un anno o con la multa fino a euro 1.032.

Se l'offesa consiste nell'attribuzione di un fatto determinato, la pena è della reclusione fino a due anni, ovvero della multa fino a euro 2.065.

Se l'offesa è recata col mezzo della stampa o con qualsiasi altro mezzo di pubblicità, ovvero in atto pubblico, la pena è della reclusione da sei mesi a tre anni o della multa non inferiore a euro 516.

Se l'offesa è recata a un Corpo politico, amministrativo o giudiziario, o ad una sua rappresentanza o ad una autorità costituita in collegio, le pene sono aumentate.

Art. 596.
Esclusione della prova liberatoria.

Il colpevole dal delitto previsto dall'articolo precedente non è ammesso a provare, a sua discolpa, la verità o la notorietà del fatto attribuito alla persona offesa.

Tuttavia, quando l'offesa consiste nell'attribuzione di un fatto determinato, la persona offesa e l'offensore possono, d'accordo, prima che sia pronunciata sentenza irrevocabile, deferire ad un giurì d'onore il giudizio sulla verità del fatto medesimo.

Quando l'offesa consiste nell'attribuzione di un fatto determinato, la prova della verità del fatto medesimo è però sempre ammessa nel procedimento penale:

1) se la persona offesa è un pubblico ufficiale ed il fatto ad esso attribuito si riferisce all'esercizio delle sue funzioni;
2) se per il fatto attribuito alla persona offesa è tutt'ora aperto o si inizia contro di essa un procedimento penale;
3) se il querelante domanda formalmente che il giudizio si estenda ad accertare la verità o la falsità del fatto ad esso attribuito.

Se la verità del fatto è provata o se per esso la persona, a cui il fatto è attribuito, è [per esso] condannata dopo l'attribuzione del fatto medesimo, l'autore dell'imputazione non è punibile, salvo che i modi usati non rendano per se stessi applicabile la disposizione dell'articolo 595, primo comma.

Art. 596-bis.
Diffamazione col mezzo della stampa.

Se il delitto di diffamazione è commesso col mezzo della stampa le disposizioni dell'articolo precedente si applicano anche al direttore o vice-direttore responsabile, all'editore e allo stampatore, per i reati preveduti negli articoli 57, 57-bis e 58.
Google translation (with minor help from me):

Art. 595.
Defamation.

Anyone who, apart from the cases indicated in the previous article, by communicating with more people, offends the reputation of others, is punished with imprisonment of up to one year or a fine of up to € 1,032.

If the offense consists in the attribution of a specific fact, the penalty is imprisonment for up to two years, or a fine of up to € 2,065.

If the offense is carried out by the press or by any other means of advertising, or in a public document, the penalty is imprisonment from six months to three years or a fine of not less than 516 euros.

If the offense is directed to a political, administrative or judicial body, or to one of its representatives or to an authority constituted in a college [an official organization], the penalties are increased.

Art. 596.
Evidence of truthful attributions.

The person guilty of the crime envisaged in the previous article is not allowed to prove, in his defense, the truth or notoriety of the fact attributed to the offended person.

However, when the offense consists in the attribution of a specific fact, the offended person and the offender can, by agreement, before the irrevocable verdict is pronounced, refer the judgment on the truth of the fact to a jury of honor.

When the offense consists in the attribution of a specific fact, the proof of the truth of the fact is however always admitted in the criminal proceedings:

1) if the offended person is a public official and the fact attributed to him refers to the exercise of his functions;

2) if for the fact attributed to the injured person a criminal proceeding is still open or is initiated against him;

3) if the plaintiff formally requests that the judgment extend to ascertain the truth or falsity of the fact attributed to him.

If the truth of the fact is proven or if for him the person to whom the fact is attributed is condemned after the attribution of the fact itself, the author of the charge is not punishable, except that the methods used do not make the provision of article 595, first paragraph applicable for themselves.

Art. 596-bis.
Defamation by the press.

If the crime of defamation is committed by means of the press, the provisions of the preceding article also apply to the director or deputy director responsible, to the publisher and to the printer, for the offenses provided for in articles 57, 57-bis and 58.
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Old 21st October 2020, 02:43 PM   #3435
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
IIRC the trial was delayed when the judge asked Mignini to supply Italian translations of the alleged offending statements from Honor Bound.

I lost interest in the progress of that trial, until all charges were dropped. IIRC the main offence Mignini claimed, was the allegation in Honor Bound that Mignini had offered Sollecito a deal if he would testify against Knox. Why that claim was deemed offensive is beyond me.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I think that's because plea deals like that are illegal in Italy. Not that I wouldn't put Mignini above 'suggesting' such a thing. Sort of like suggesting AK and RS were only witnesses informed of events instead of suspects so they didn't require lawyers. Or Donnino suggesting Knox had amnesia which is why she couldn't remember going to the cottage. Or the police suggesting Knox heard Kercher screaming or meeting Lumumba and taking him to the cottage.
In the US, that deal would be considered prosecutorial misconduct, and at a minimum the evidence given by the witness offered the deal would potentially be inadmissible.

However, in the US, I believe such deals are of course made but not admitted to by the participants.

I believe - but I am not sure - that a deal like that - inducing someone to testify (falsely) by a promise of a lower sentence or other inducement - would be against current Italian law. It may be covered under CP Articles 377 or 377-bis, which make it a crime to get someone to testify falsly by providing that person money or other benefits.

Last edited by Numbers; 21st October 2020 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 21st October 2020, 03:21 PM   #3436
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This is the part of RS's book that supposedly had Mignini so upset:

Quote:
The legal community in Perugia was full of holes and leaks, and my family learned all sorts of things about the opinions being bandied about behind the scenes, including discussions within the prosecutor’s office. The bottom line: Mignini, they were told, was not all that interested in me except as a gateway to Amanda. He might indeed be willing to acknowledge I was innocent, but only if I gave him something in exchange, either by incriminating Amanda directly or by no longer vouching for her.
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Old 21st October 2020, 03:26 PM   #3437
whoanellie
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
In the US, that deal would be considered prosecutorial misconduct, and at a minimum the evidence given by the witness offered the deal would potentially be inadmissible.

However, in the US, I believe such deals are of course made but not admitted to by the participants.
Prosecutors make deals exchanging leniency for testimony frequently in the US. Testimony obtained under such deals is admissible - as long as the deal is disclosed to the defense - and do not constitute prosecutorial misconduct.

https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.e...ext=clevstlrev
https://www.stetson.edu/law/lawrevie...-authority.pdf
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/...11&context=clr
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Old 21st October 2020, 03:55 PM   #3438
Stacyhs
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A form of plea bargaining is allowed in Italy but only if the sentence would be less than 5 years:

Quote:
Italy has a form of bargaining, popularly known as patteggiamento but that has a technical name of penalty application under request of the parts. In fact, the bargaining is not about the charges, but about the penalty applied in sentence, reduced up to[52] one third.

When the defendant deems that the punishment that would, concretely, be handed down is less than a five-year imprisonment (or that it would just be a fine), the defendant may request to plea bargain with the prosecutor. The defendant is rewarded with a reduction on the sentence and has other advantages (such as that the defendant does not pay the fees on the proceeding). The defendant must accept the penalty for the charges (even if the plea-bargained sentence has some particular matters in further compensation proceedings), no matter how serious the charges are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain#Italy
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Old 21st October 2020, 04:03 PM   #3439
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
In the US, that deal would be considered prosecutorial misconduct, and at a minimum the evidence given by the witness offered the deal would potentially be inadmissible.

However, in the US, I believe such deals are of course made but not admitted to by the participants.

I believe - but I am not sure - that a deal like that - inducing someone to testify (falsely) by a promise of a lower sentence or other inducement - would be against current Italian law. It may be covered under CP Articles 377 or 377-bis, which make it a crime to get someone to testify falsly by providing that person money or other benefits.
Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Prosecutors make deals exchanging leniency for testimony frequently in the US. Testimony obtained under such deals is admissible - as long as the deal is disclosed to the defense - and do not constitute prosecutorial misconduct.

https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.e...ext=clevstlrev
https://www.stetson.edu/law/lawrevie...-authority.pdf
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/...11&context=clr
whoanellie, you are entirely correct that plea deals that reduce an accomplice's sentence in exchange for cooperation in the case, including testimony against alleged co-conspirators, are indeed common and legal in the US, as long as such deals are acknowledged in court, and they are commonly so acknowledged. The accomplice's testimony is supposed to be truthful.

My statements on this topic for the US were confused.

What I meant was that plea deals where the alleged accomplice - or a jailhouse "snitch" - testifies falsely against an alleged co-conspirator - or an accused person confined in the jail with the "snitch" - by an inducement, such as a promise, not disclosed in court, of a reduced sentence, is potentially prosecutorial misconduct.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
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Old 21st October 2020, 04:07 PM   #3440
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This is the part of RS's book that supposedly had Mignini so upset:

Quote:
The legal community in Perugia was full of holes and leaks, and my family learned all sorts of things about the opinions being bandied about behind the scenes, including discussions within the prosecutor’s office. The bottom line: Mignini, they were told, was not all that interested in me except as a gateway to Amanda. He might indeed be willing to acknowledge I was innocent, but only if I gave him something in exchange, either by incriminating Amanda directly or by no longer vouching for her.
So - given that both the lawsuit as well as the criminal charge against Gumbel & Sollecito were withdrawn........

Where does that leave Mignini in terms of exposure to a criminal charge against the offer that he made to Sollecito?
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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