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Old 30th April 2007, 10:33 AM   #81
sackett
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Okay, knock it off! I confess! I zapped the %@$&*+ overpass with an early type of hi-energy beam we were working on across the Bay in Berkeley. This was back in 1965/66. There may have been some beers involved, maybe a wierd cigarette, so what's the big deal?

Goddamn time-warp. Somebody should fix those %@$&*+ things.

And I am not now nor have I ever been Jewish, except for one time at band camp.
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Last edited by sackett; 30th April 2007 at 10:39 AM. Reason: Ya gotta schtup.
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:12 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
No--you did not provide a link. I looked it up, and I gave you a link to the official report.
I am done with a "Scientist" who cannot even state his hypothesis, much less show any evidence in support, or provide any mechanism for its actuality.
I call troll.


Like I said before - Apollo20 is a chemist trying to solve an engineering problem. And when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The bridge collapse shows that nothing more than heat is needed to weaken steel sufficiently, in fact it started to sag within 20 minutes of the crash. Nothing Apollo20 has cited could possible act that quickly, and it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances to occur at all, let alone 3 times in one day in 3 separate fires.
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:20 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
No--you did not provide a link. I looked it up, and I gave you a link to the official report.
I am done with a "Scientist" who cannot even state his hypothesis, much less show any evidence in support, or provide any mechanism for its actuality.
I call troll.
so, ~enigma~
you can get back to whatever it is you object to.
Thank you
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:21 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Thank you
You banned at LCF yet?
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:22 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by uk_dave View Post
You banned at LCF yet?
No...
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:27 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post


Like I said before - Apollo20 is a chemist trying to solve an engineering problem. And when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The bridge collapse shows that nothing more than heat is needed to weaken steel sufficiently, in fact it started to sag within 20 minutes of the crash. Nothing Apollo20 has cited could possible act that quickly, and it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances to occur at all, let alone 3 times in one day in 3 separate fires.
What he has failed topoint out in all his dodging and ducking is that the Fitzborough plant worked just fine for 2 months before the failure--which was due to increased pressure. Re-reading the report--the temperature of the system was ~155C under operating conditions. The split in the CRES bellows was determined to be post-fire, not pre-fire:
Quote:
The cause of this split is as follows. A leak occurred as a result of two loose bolts at a flange on the non-return valve, located near the 50in. (1270mm) split. This leak gave rise to an accumulation of oxidizable residues in the lagging and spontaneous combustion or a spray which was ignited by induced elctrostatic charges; the result being a flame directed into the inside of an 8in. (203mm) bend. It was assumed that the 50in. (1270mm) split occurred by zinc embrittlement and creep cavitation at high temperatures. This assumption was later confirmed by a metallurgical investigation showing that zinc embrittlement on austenitic stainless steel at a temperature of between 800 and 900 degree C could occur in a pipe under a stress of 3.21ton/sq.in. (48.8N/sq.mm) within a few seconds."
Since the as-designed reaction never reached nywhere near 800C, this certainly was not the caause--
Aand, WTC 1, 2, 7, and the bridge didn not use any stainles steel in their construction.(and you wouldn't use mere CRES at those temps, anyway--or I wouldnt--Inconel, maybe...)
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:32 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
What he has failed topoint out in all his dodging and ducking is that the Fitzborough plant worked just fine for 2 months before the failure--which was due to increased pressure. Re-reading the report--the temperature of the system was ~155C under operating conditions. The split in the CRES bellows was determined to be post-fire, not pre-fire:
Since the as-designed reaction never reached nywhere near 800C, this certainly was not the caause--
Aand, WTC 1, 2, 7, and the bridge didn not use any stainles steel in their construction.(and you wouldn't use mere CRES at those temps, anyway--or I wouldnt--Inconel, maybe...)
please...could we drop the pissing contest. It's a bridge for christ sake...
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:42 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
please...could we drop the pissing contest. It's a bridge for christ sake...
If you think that defining a hypothesis, claiming expertise, claiming analogies where none exist, and pointing out shortcomings in the science of a self-proclaimed scientist is a pissing contest, then no, I won't quit.
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:57 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
What he has failed topoint out in all his dodging and ducking is that the Fitzborough plant worked just fine for 2 months before the failure--which was due to increased pressure. Re-reading the report--the temperature of the system was ~155C under operating conditions. The split in the CRES bellows was determined to be post-fire, not pre-fire:
Since the as-designed reaction never reached nywhere near 800C, this certainly was not the caause--
Aand, WTC 1, 2, 7, and the bridge didn not use any stainles steel in their construction.(and you wouldn't use mere CRES at those temps, anyway--or I wouldnt--Inconel, maybe...)
Isn't Apollo20's contention that the official account is wrong and that only a handful of unbiased, truly independant scientists have the balls to come up with another hypothesis and the government had better damn well include them on any future investigatory panel or they'll sqweem and sqweem until they are sthick?
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:58 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
If you think that defining a hypothesis, claiming expertise, claiming analogies where none exist, and pointing out shortcomings in the science of a self-proclaimed scientist is a pissing contest, then no, I won't quit.
You can be the bigger man though...is that too much to ask?
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Old 30th April 2007, 12:02 PM   #91
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I couldn't tell if this was posted already, but I suppose it was inevitable.

Much stupid: http://stopthelie.com/freeway_collapse.html
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Old 30th April 2007, 12:23 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
You can be the bigger man though...is that too much to ask?
You mean that by ignoring junk science, bald assertions, and unsupported hypotheses, I am being a better person? Sounds like "Ignore it and it will go away", which never works.
Besides, I am genuinely interested in the actual science here, if not the cryptology of CC and Apollo20.
I would love to find out where they are going, and what they think happened that simple structural damage, deformation, and loading don't explain. How much volume of chemicals is required? How long does it take? Where is all this data coming from.
I will ask pointed questions. I will not allow unsupported assertions to just lie there, and I certainly won't be drawn off by a red herring, if I can help it.
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Old 30th April 2007, 12:57 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Ha...

From this page




How can a petrol fire get to 2750°F when petrol burns at only 1040°F, 972° lower than it need to melt steel??!!!??!!!1!!!!1111!!!
I see reporters are just as lazy as they were on 9/11...

He's a good reporter...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=80850
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Old 30th April 2007, 01:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
How does one tell? Is that pillar circumcised?
DR
Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Look closely at the "firemen"...
-Gumboot


Those aren't diamond merchants...
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Old 30th April 2007, 01:31 PM   #95
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Check out the video of the collapse: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...cal&id=5255492
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Old 30th April 2007, 01:37 PM   #96
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damage control from Woo Central!

Comment: Debunkers are already using this to attack the 9/11 truth movement in claiming that this explains the collapse of the towers and WTC 7. Syndicated radio host Neil Boortz attacked Alex Jones this morning, claiming that this refutes the controlled demolition hypothesis. In reality, the freeway collapse is completely different and the comparison is ridiculous.
I can already hear defenders of the official account screaming "See, fire can cause a steel structure to collapse-the bridge collapsed!"
Comparing the circumstances surrounding the fire and subsequent partial collapse of this bridge to the circumstances surrounding the fires and subsequent complete collapse of the towers and WTC 7 is flawed from end to end. This fact should be obvious to most people; but let's point out a few things just in case they weren't already noticed.
1. This was an open air environment where flames were able to reach their absolute maximum temperature; white-hot and shooting upwards of 200 feet in the air.

2. Those 200 foot flames were acting on a single support truss that was fastened to the two columns pictured here. That truss (and the connectors that fastened it to the columns) represents a small fraction of the steel that would have been found on a single floor of the towers or WTC 7. So again, far more heat focused on a single truss and no way to redistribute the load once that truss was weakened.

3. You'll notice that despite the intense fires ability to weaken the truss and connectors that there is NO mention of molten metal in the debris. Also, unlike the debris of the towers and WTC 7, it's not likely we're going to hear anything about thermate (specifically used to destroy steel columns) in the bridge debris.

4. You'll notice that the concrete roadway that "pancaked down" on the roadway below did not cause the lower freeway to collapse. Nor has the concrete disintegrated into a fine powder.
5. You'll notice the columns were not torn down by the collapse, nor did they evaporate into thin air, rather they are still standing (having only lost the the truss and connectors that held the roadway to them.)

So to quickly recap:
White-hot 200 foot flames acting on a single truss (and no ability to redistribute the load once weakened.)
No molten metal and certainly no thermate found
No column failure
No evaporation / pulverization of concrete
No "pancake collapse"
-Ending with a paragraph from The 1-hour Guide to 9/11.
For the record, few in the scientific community doubt that it's theoretically possible for a building to experience failure if it is subjected to devastating heat for a sufficient period of time. And additional factors like no fire-proofing, no sprinkler systems, insufficient steel to "bleed off" heat or inferior construction greatly increase the possibility. However, what is "doubted" (or more accurately; considered downright impossible) is that such a failure would resemble anything like what was witnessed on 9/11. -Gradual, isolated, asymmetrical failures spread out over time; perhaps -simultaneous disintegration of all load bearing columns (leaving a pile of neatly folded rubble a few stories high) -no way.
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Old 30th April 2007, 01:43 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Unsecured Coins View Post
damage control from Woo Central!
Where can I find a nice, gigantic pile of concrete and melted steel to bang my head into?

Oh hey, here's one by my house!

::BANG:: ::BANG::
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Old 30th April 2007, 01:48 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Unsecured Coins View Post
This was an open air environment where flames were able to reach their absolute maximum temperature; white-hot and shooting upwards of 200 feet in the air.
That's why steel is smelted in an open-air environment.
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Old 30th April 2007, 02:40 PM   #99
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Wake up people!!! 4/28 was an inside job!!!


Who at the California Department of Transportation ordered a standdown? Clearly, the California Highway Patrol had cruisers on standby for emergencies and yet, the speeding tanker truck passed by all the radars allowing it to ram into the concrete (reinforced steel) overpass!

I have yet to see any evidence that it was in fact a tanker truck at all! Could it have been a SUV? A small hybrid car? What about the C-Dot cameras that were facing the overpass? Why won't they just release all the videos and put this theory to rest? Just asking questions?
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Old 30th April 2007, 02:57 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
You mean that by ignoring junk science, bald assertions, and unsupported hypotheses, I am being a better person? Sounds like "Ignore it and it will go away", which never works.
Besides, I am genuinely interested in the actual science here, if not the cryptology of CC and Apollo20.
I would love to find out where they are going, and what they think happened that simple structural damage, deformation, and loading don't explain. How much volume of chemicals is required? How long does it take? Where is all this data coming from.
I will ask pointed questions. I will not allow unsupported assertions to just lie there, and I certainly won't be drawn off by a red herring, if I can help it.
You can do what you want dude...chill. I'm just saying that if we don't feed Apollo, he will stop. This is a bridge not 9/11 nor is it a conspiracy. Also, I really doubt NIST will bother with a multi-year study on this.
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Old 30th April 2007, 05:57 PM   #101
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Note to Troofers:

No. We aren't seriously using, or even considering the freeway collapse as genuine evidence against the various crackpot "controlled demolition" allegations. There has, since Day One, been a bottomless fount of real scientific evidence which satisfies that need.

We're just using the freeway collapse to make fun of you.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:10 PM   #102
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ENIGMA/RWGUINN:
I confess to being mystified by your approach on the JREF. I welcome hearing you question any statement I've made, and I certainly don't mind being corrected by you on a scientific matter. But, when you reproach me, I have to wonder...........
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:16 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
ENIGMA/RWGUINN:
I confess to being mystified by your approach on the JREF. I welcome hearing you question any statement I've made, and I certainly don't mind being corrected by you on a scientific matter. But, when you reproach me, I have to wonder...........
Dr. Greening, are there any stores near your house that sell mirrors?
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:24 PM   #104
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You people are so gullible.

Bush and his henchmen know the Truthers are knocking on their door.

They have to do something to discredit the 9/11 Truth movement. Or else, they're all gonna be exposed.

So they orchestrated this "fire" and "collapse" just so people like you will be fooled -- AGAIN!

I mean, really -- no one dies?! C'mon!

This was all a setup.

And you people bought it, hook, line, and sinker.

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Old 30th April 2007, 06:25 PM   #105
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The highway collapse doesn't prove the towers collapsed by fire. They just don't get it. It proves fire weakens steel well below the melting point.

All they have are straw men.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:31 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
ENIGMA/RWGUINN:
I confess to being mystified by your approach on the JREF. I welcome hearing you question any statement I've made, and I certainly don't mind being corrected by you on a scientific matter. But, when you reproach me, I have to wonder...........
Well to be honest I am mystified by your approach here. I have corresponded with scientists and engineers on these boards (well more specifically BAUT and ApolloHoax) and always found them to explain their ideas not only in great depth but with a clarity that allows for even the least educated layman to attempt an understanding of where they are coming from. Be it a geologist, a mechanical engineer, a chemist, a physicist, or an aerospace engineer, they all have a similar pattern in their posting in trying to be as informative as possible.

I have found the same here, with many of those that know the topics able to produce posts containing vast amounts of information that is both enlightening and easy to read, even for those that haven't delved into the topic previous. I've always stated that the hard part isn't getting a scientist to talk, it's getting them to shut-up about things.

However, you are totally different, I might as well trying to pull hen's teeth rather than to try and get you to say anything. Trying to make my way through your posts is like trying to play pin the tail on the donkey when the donkey is in another city. You are evasive and refuse to actually commit yourself to a line of reasoning or make yourself clear in the least. Playing cryptic games really doesn't help here. Now sure, you might not be interested in handing everything to people on a silver platter, and fair enough, everyone should indeed think for themselves rather then following along dogmatically, but what you're doing currently ranks right up there with posting a random Apollo images and saying "See they faked it." Would you write a paper you wanted to publish in the same way as you have been posting here? I seriously doubt that.

Now I'm not saying that you need to treat everyone as ignorant laymen, there are a lot of qualified people on this board, but playing "guess what I'm thinking" while sniping in one sentence posts will do nothing but get people's backs up. If you want to lay your cards on the table, put your ideas out, with supporting evidence, and have us discuss it like rational human beings of supposed intelligence, then great, lets do it, no one is going to steal your ideas and claim them as our own. If on the other hand you're planning to keep acting like a troll, well I'm afraid that's what you'll be treated like.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:57 PM   #107
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Well, Bolboboffin and Phantomwoof:

Touche!

All I hear is:

There can't be any chemical effects because NIST say so..........

YAWN
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:04 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Well, Bolboboffin and Phantomwoof:

Touche!

All I hear is:

There can't be any chemical effects because NIST say so..........

YAWN
How silly. I don't think those words even appeared in my post to you. I suggest that you are importing the meanings that you think you hear in my post. It seems to be exhausting work for you - perhaps you should stop.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:04 PM   #109
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Rosie O'Donnell still thinks she was right, (Click on the video blog if you have a strong enough stomach) because the bridge didn't have 25 central columns like WTC 7 did. And it didn't come down at free fall speed (sic). Of course, it seems to come down quite rapidly indeed, easily breaking through the next level. But Rosie has a comeback: It also didn't pulverize the concrete.



ETA: Anybody know if the report of steel melting is just an assumption or a conclusion? I note that the original source for the temperature of the fire claimed that it exceeded 2750 F, but I'm wondering if he just assumed the steel melted and therefore that's how hot it had to be?
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:09 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Well, Bolboboffin and Phantomwoof:

Touche!

All I hear is:

There can't be any chemical effects because NIST say so..........

YAWN
Show us where anyone here as said that? If you can't find it then you're obviously hearing things. I for one am interested in your ideas because I'm a chemist (analytical but still...) and I want to see where you're going, but I'm not at all interested in wadding through the mire to get anywhere. I did think that we might have started getting somewhere on the iron spherical issue, but then you left and nothing was resolved. I'm very happy to get into a serious discussion, but all this sniping and acting childish really isn't helping.
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 30th April 2007 at 07:15 PM. Reason: changed "their" to "your". brain exploded....
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:10 PM   #111
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Well, Bolboboffin and Phantomwoof:

Touche!

All I hear is:

There can't be any chemical effects because NIST say so..........

YAWN
I would defy you to find anywhere where anyone says this. This is something you have invented out of whole cloth, and obscured by acting as if everyone should know the play and players from day one. You insult this forum, you insutlt he intelligent folks here, all without cause or reason, and all based on an assumption that is purely your own.

Nobody here has said "There can't be any chemical effects because NIST say so..........", in fact going through your old threads 99% of the problem is that you are making a huge fuss about these 'chemical effects' and fail utterly to disclose the major signifigance of them and why there are no alternative explanations! This is partly from you flippant attitude, partly from your dropping one-or-two line posts and expecting everyone else to understand immediately what it is that you are talking about.

Greening, you are supposed to be a professional and a scholar. Right now I would have a hard time discerning you from a repeat sock-puppet of a troll we have arond these parts. Is this seriusly any way for someone with your skills to behave? Making unfounded accusations and repeating unexplained complaints? That's childishness! If this is how you behave in real life I can imagine that its no surprise your complaints to other professionals have gotten nowhere.

Seriously. Stop acknowledging 'touches' like PhantomWolf's and start LISTENING to what they are trying to tell you! You acknowledge his complaint in your first sentence and then promptly ignore his advice in the remainder of your post with taunting trollish antics.

I should not have to say the following to someone with as much academic credentials as you, and who is also probably many years my senior: Grow up.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:10 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Well, Bolboboffin and Phantomwoof:

Touche!

All I hear is:

There can't be any chemical effects because NIST say so..........

YAWN
where did they say that or are you under the impression that because NIST didn't address it they mean it never happened? Also, do you know what a strawman argument is?
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:47 PM   #113
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[CT THINK]
The conspiracy is real!

Check out the 'evidence' here

[/CT THINK]
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:53 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
[CT THINK]
The conspiracy is real!

Check out the 'evidence' here

[/CT THINK]
I was JUST about to post that photo when I saw your post! (I saw it on a different forum than the one you linked to but it cracked me up, too )





429truth.org - bwahahahahaha!

Last edited by LashL; 30th April 2007 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:44 PM   #115
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollo20 :
Well this is what the Associated Press had to say about the Oakland Bridge incident which occurred at 3:45 a.m. today:

"8,600 gallons of gasoline ignited....flames rose 200 feet into the air ... (temperatures) exceeded 2750 degrees and caused the steel beams... to buckle AND BOLTS HOLDING THE STRUCTURE TOGETHER

TO MELT,

LEADING TO COLLAPSE"

I wonder if the bolts were GALVANIZED STEEL?
A-5-72 (aka A-36, just like the WTC) steel. Carbon steel. Not stainless (CRES)

How long does it take for your zinc embrittlement to occur in carbon steel (not stainless)?
Ok, one has to understand how a journalist thinks.
They gather information only to the point where they believe they can draw conclusions.

info;
-Steel melts at 2750o
-Bridge truss sagged and collapsed in a fire
THUS the fire was 2750o or higher.

Dr. Greening seems to be on the same track as in his explosive fire retardant posts in another thread. Just like playing with the plebe's minds do you Dr.?

Once again with a little knowledge one can come up with many a theory to explain this collapse.
IIRC one theory regarding the towers was eutectic melting caused by the presence of sulfur. Well this was a busy highway and automobile exhaust emmissions contain sulfur compounds. At any rate there would be a coating of residue from exhaust of millions of vehicles on the steel. This was also in an area that would have sea spray present at times with all the attendant residue inherant with that.. One could concoct a theory that any of several elements and compounds in the residue resulted in eutectic action, embrittlement, catalytic reactions creating localized higher temps.,,,,,,,,,,,,,

oh, and of course if the bolts holding the whole she-bang together were galvinized then all one need do is show that they snapped .

Last edited by jaydeehess; 30th April 2007 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:46 PM   #116
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I didn't mention this above, but if you check out the link you will see video of the sagging in the concrete-steel that immediately preceded the collapse, as well as the collapse itself when the sagging section broke free and fell.
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Old 30th April 2007, 10:36 PM   #117
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I confess. I've been stuck on that freeway so many times that I've accrued acrimony against it of staggering proportions. Normally I do not oversee NWO fire and rescue operations so what a surprise when, early that morning, I was consulted on what to do. I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of tanker trucks already, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the overpass collapse.
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:18 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I confess. I've been stuck on that freeway so many times that I've accrued acrimony against it of staggering proportions. Normally I do not oversee NWO fire and rescue operations so what a surprise when, early that morning, I was consulted on what to do. I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of tanker trucks already, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the overpass collapse.
The first Merry Pason confession of the 4-29 attack!
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Old 30th April 2007, 11:47 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The first Merry Pason confession of the 4-29 attack!
Merry Pason ?

Did you mean Perry Mason?
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Old 1st May 2007, 12:24 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Merry Pason ?

Did you mean Perry Mason?
Go to the link in Brainster's post then sit in the corner wearing a dunce cap for 30 minutes

ETA - Some people miss everything...
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