Merged: Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[Hellbound]

Found some more interesting tidbits browsing that article. This listing was at the end:
(for those not following, this is the same article as my last post, found here)

Quote:

Severely damaged. Frame collapse/massive destruction. Little left standing. The total destruction of most buildings would result from 10-12 PSI incident pressure, while a blast of 6-9 PSI incident pressure would produce severe damage to reinforced concrete structures and 4-7 PSI incident pressure would produce serious damage to steel framed buildings.
Heavily damaged. Major portions of the structure will collapse (over 50%). A significant percentage of secondary structural members will collapse (over 50%). Major deformation of primary and secondary structural members, but progressive collapse is unlikely. Collapse of non-structural elements.
Damaged – unrepairable. 2.3 PSI incident pressure. Some sections of the structure may collapse or lose structural capacity (10 to 20% of structure). Major deformation of non-structural elements and secondary structural members and minor deformation of primary structural members, but progressive collapse is unlikely.
Damaged – repairable. 1.8 PSI incident pressure. Minor to major deformations of both structural members and non-structural elements. Some secondary debris will be likely, but the structure remains intact with collapse unlikely. Minor deformations of non-structural elements and secondary structural members and no permanent deformation in primary structural members.
Superficially damaged. 1.1 PSI incident pressure. No permanent deformation of primary and secondary structural members or non-structural elements.

[Norseman]

Originally Posted by hard lines

Finally, perhaps someone here would like to attempt to tell me why local elevator bank A appears to have 5 out of 6 of its doors blown off?

etc, etc, etc.......

Over pressure created by the fireball from mainly elevator shaft 6 and 7. That is the short answer. Goodnight.

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by Norseman

Over pressure created by the fireball from mainly elevator shaft 6 and 7. That is the short answer. Goodnight.

6 elevator doors were blown out in bank A. no elevator doors were blown out in bank B. bank B was closer to the freight elevator shaft and 6, 7. therefore if overpressure from a fireball emitting from shaft 6, 7 is what your saying caused the 6 doors being blown out in bank A - then how come no doors were blown out in bank B which was closer to the fireball and overpressure?

[DGM]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

6 elevator doors were blown out in bank A. no elevator doors were blown out in bank B. bank B was closer to the freight elevator shaft and 6, 7. therefore if overpressure from a fireball emitting from shaft 6, 7 is what your saying caused the 6 doors being blown out in bank A - then how come no doors were blown out in bank B which was closer to the fireball and overpressure?

Could you PLEASE present an argument that supported your theory? If there was a bomb large enough in the basement to do anything to the structure the elevator doors would be the least of the damage. Much more of the building would be effected. Think 1993 and the devastation that was created.

Would you mind putting together what you think these bombs were placed for keeping in mind the size of the structure (in the basement levels) and the collateral damage that would be caused to disturb such structure?

[StoneRook]

Here's a question:

Were there any reports of lobby damage in WTC2, similar to WTC1?

(specifically after the plane hit WTC2)

I haven't come across any in my searches.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by StoneRook

Here's a question:

Were there any reports of lobby damage in WTC2, similar to WTC1?

(specifically after the plane hit WTC2)

I haven't come across any in my searches.

Yes, the reports were almost identical. See my page here: Inside the South Tower: Witness Accounts

[StoneRook]

Ah, thanks for that Gravy.

I should of read all your links. (I find myself concentrating on WTC 1 for some reason)

[Norseman]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

6 elevator doors were blown out in bank A. no elevator doors were blown out in bank B. bank B was closer to the freight elevator shaft and 6, 7. therefore if overpressure from a fireball emitting from shaft 6, 7 is what your saying caused the 6 doors being blown out in bank A - then how come no doors were blown out in bank B which was closer to the fireball and overpressure?

Who said that all the doors were blown out in bank A. I assume you found your information in this post by hard lines on the page before this.

And specifically this quote:

Quote:

We get into the lobby of the north tower and the first elevator bank, there was one elevator out of the six that still had the lights on, but they couldn?t get it to work. Meanwhile, all the other elevators were blown off their doors. So we tried the next elevator bank of six and they finally got one that worked to the 24th floor. I think it was captain of 21 he went up to check. He went up and he came back down. He went up with his guys and someone from the truck took the elevator. And then the other engine went up in the next load, 22, and on the load after that, the truck was going up. They wanted one of our guys to run the elevators since there was only one truck, so I gave the control radio to Fireman Louie Cacchioli.

Source

So that is 5 doors damaged in bank A. And nothing about the status of the five other doors in the next bank where they found a working elevator. When are you able to get the facts right?

You should also read the remainder of the quotes in the post by hard lines carefully. Ignore his conclusions they are wrong. They indicate quit clearly that most of the doors in the elevator lobby had sustained serious damage from over pressure caused by the deflagration. Which door that held up to the pressure and which door that gave way could depend on many factors like variations in the strength of the doors for instance, even coincidence. And all the soot on the ceiling in the middle of the lobby is easily explained by remaining jet fuel burning for some time inside elevator shaft 6, 7 and 50.

This was a consequence of Flight 11's impact and nothing else.

[thewholesoul]

hey norseman it been a while.

your "backdraft" hypothesis can be easily dismissed as false.

you provided two nice links of a backdraft in uraguay and an artifically created backdraft. looking at these links you soon realise the problem with your hypothesis.

in both these links there was access for fresh air to mix with the oxygen starved gases. but the elevator in the twin towers was specifically designed not to act as a chimney in the event of a fire. is was essentially like a closed tunnel (apart from the entry point of the jet fuel at the impact zone approximately 90 floors above).

so where did the fresh air gain access to the oxygen starved gases? you say

Originally Posted by Norseman

When the fireball shot out of the shafts at the bottom, all the unburned gasses mixed with fresh air and rapidly deflagrated, causing the overpressure that blew out walls and windows.

Originally Posted by Norseman

Normally backdraft occurs in fires when fresh air suddenly enters the confined space of an oxygen starved fire. The principle would be the same for an oxygen starved fireball that shoots in to a room filled with fresh air.

so basically a fireball shoots out an elevator shaft presumably at an elevator door, enters the room, and deflagrates.

Now Felipee David and philip Morelli were right infront or standing next to the elevator doors of the freight elevator. long story short, if your hypothesis was true then we would expect both these gentlemen to see or feel the fireball first and then hear a deflagration.

but that does not happen. they both heard an "explosion" first and AFTER the explosion they felt heat from a fireball. again with Hurseley Lever and Jose Sanchez in the B4 basement the report hearing a "bomb" or "explosion" first and then a fireball.

conclusion: your wrong. no fireball entered B4 basement followed by a deflagration. testimony reveals that an explosion occured prior to fireball being witnessed. with no access for the supposed gases in the eLevator shaft to mix with the fresh air in the basement levels there COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A BACKDRAFT

its back to the drawing board for you my firend

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

hey norseman it been a while.

your "backdraft" hypothesis can be easily dismissed as false.

you provided two nice links of a backdraft in uraguay and an artifically created backdraft. looking at these links you soon realise the problem with your hypothesis.

in both these links there was access for fresh air to mix with the oxygen starved gases. but the elevator in the twin towers was specifically designed not to act as a chimney in the event of a fire. is was essentially like a closed tunnel (apart from the entry point of the jet fuel at the impact zone approximately 90 floors above).

so where did the fresh air gain access to the oxygen starved gases? you say





so basically a fireball shoots out an elevator shaft presumably at an elevator door, enters the room, and deflagrates.

Now Felipee David and philip Morelli were right infront or standing next to the elevator doors of the freight elevator. long story short, if your hypothesis was true then we would expect both these gentlemen to see or feel the fireball first and then hear a deflagration.

but that does not happen. they both heard an "explosion" first and AFTER the explosion they felt heat from a fireball. again with Hurseley Lever and Jose Sanchez in the B4 basement the report hearing a "bomb" or "explosion" first and then a fireball.

conclusion: your wrong. no fireball entered B4 basement followed by a deflagration. testimony reveals that an explosion occured prior to fireball being witnessed. with no access for the supposed gases in the eLevator shaft to mix with the fresh air in the basement levels there COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A BACKDRAFT

its back to the drawing board for you my firend

Been a long time since anyone was dumb enough to try the Karnak gambit and it's hermetically sealed garbage.

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Been a long time since anyone was dumb enough to try the Karnak gambit and it's hermetically sealed garbage.

in the following link http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=q8XToX7aSdg

you will hear MIT Engineer Jeff King. he mentions the name of the engineer who DESIGNED the core of the towers. the core was designed to prevent a chimney effect. it was hermetically sealed and there were fire shutters to cut off the airflow into the core.

do you understand the significance of this bubba? really, can you grasp it?

for a back draft you NEED ventilation.

now norseman's answer to the problem of ventilation was not to suggest that the air from the lobby and mechanical rooms could enter the elevator shaft. obviously if this were possible, which it is not, then the famous backdraft would have naturally occured long before it fell 90+ floors. you understand that buuba?

what norseman proposes is that a fireball burst into the lobby and basement presumably through an elevator door as there would be no other exit point in an elevator shaft. he chooses not to mention that a fireball on its own would not have sufficient energy to this. and even if it did have the energy then he must explain why this event did not occur ALL THE WAY DOWN THE ELEVATOR SHAFT.

in any case once the fireball enters the lobby and the mechanical rooms the combustible gas following the fireball would then be exposed to air and result in a deflagration.

thats it - thats his fantastic theory.

so allow me to make this really simple for you bubba: fireball bursting out an elevator door - deflagration - the sound of a deflagration.

however from the testimony of people WHO WERE IN THE BUILDING they heard an explosion FIRST then afterwards we have some reports of a fireball.

conclusion:
- the engineer who designed the core claims they were hermetically sealed to prevent the chimney effect. who are you?
- with no ventilation there could be no backdraft
- the sequence of events obtained from testimony contradicts norsemans theory

so you go back to believing in your american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

you will hear MIT Engineer Jeff King.

Jeff King is a physician who got a degree at MIT in electrical engineering many years ago. He is not an expert on structures.

Quote:

he mentions the name of the engineer who DESIGNED the core of the towers. the core was designed to prevent a chimney effect. it was hermetically sealed and there were fire shutters to cut off the airflow into the core.

You do know that the elevators were located within the core columns, don't you? How on earth did people get into the elevators if the area they were located was "hermetically sealed"?

This doesn't even make any sense.

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

in the following link http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=q8XToX7aSdg

you will hear MIT Engineer Jeff King. he mentions the name of the engineer who DESIGNED the core of the towers. the core was designed to prevent a chimney effect. it was hermetically sealed and there were fire shutters to cut off the airflow into the core.

do you understand the significance of this bubba? really, can you grasp it?

for a back draft you NEED ventilation.

now norseman's answer to the problem of ventilation was not to suggest that the air from the lobby and mechanical rooms could enter the elevator shaft. obviously if this were possible, which it is not, then the famous backdraft would have naturally occured long before it fell 90+ floors. you understand that buuba?

what norseman proposes is that a fireball burst into the lobby and basement presumably through an elevator door as there would be no other exit point in an elevator shaft. he chooses not to mention that a fireball on its own would not have sufficient energy to this. and even if it did have the energy then he must explain why this event did not occur ALL THE WAY DOWN THE ELEVATOR SHAFT.

in any case once the fireball enters the lobby and the mechanical rooms the combustible gas following the fireball would then be exposed to air and result in a deflagration.

thats it - thats his fantastic theory.

so allow me to make this really simple for you bubba: fireball bursting out an elevator door - deflagration - the sound of a deflagration.

however from the testimony of people WHO WERE IN THE BUILDING they heard an explosion FIRST then afterwards we have some reports of a fireball.

conclusion:
- the engineer who designed the core claims they were hermetically sealed to prevent the chimney effect. who are you?
- with no ventilation there could be no backdraft
- the sequence of events obtained from testimony contradicts norsemans theory

so you go back to believing in your american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

Keep believing in your American nightmare - you helped create it! Good work!

[R.Mackey]

Originally Posted by WildCat

You do know that the elevators were located within the core columns, don't you? How on earth did people get into the elevators if the area they were located was "hermetically sealed"?

This doesn't even make any sense.

I agree, this line of reasoning is total nonsense. We also happen to know from the 1993 WTC bombing that the core did provide a stack effect, and a big one.

There were indeed measures designed in to reduce the stack effect, but that doesn't mean it was zero. Particularly after being nailed by a jetliner.

[~enigma~]

Wonder why I always heard wind whipping through the elevator shafts every time I was in the WTC? Guess thewholesoul figured it all out so we can go home

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Wonder why I always heard wind whipping through the elevator shafts every time I was in the WTC? Guess thewholesoul figured it all out so we can go home

i just love the way you avoid the questions bubba. instead you consider a personal description of passing wind in an elevator as sufficient. i dont.

backdraft needs ventilation, the gas needs contact with air. the environment within the elevator shaft was oxygen starved. my friend is a fireman he knows that. i know that, and so do you. so we are all in agreement thus far.

so tell me bubba, where was the source of ventilation that caused the deflagration? and how did the fireball theory propsed by norseman create an access to the air in the mechanical rooms?

are you claiming like norseman that a fireball burst through an elevator door?
so where did the fireball get the energy to do that?

and if your saying because you heard wind whipping through the elevator shafts, then tell me bubba, if that is your source of ventilation to create a backdraft, praytell why the deflagration did not occur all the way down the shaft?

next post please try and answer a question as opposed to silly little one liners.

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

i just love the way you avoid the questions bubba. instead you consider a personal description of passing wind in an elevator as sufficient. i dont.

backdraft needs ventilation, the gas needs contact with air. the environment within the elevator shaft was oxygen starved. my friend is a fireman he knows that. i know that, and so do you. so we are all in agreement thus far.

so tell me bubba, where was the source of ventilation that caused the deflagration? and how did the fireball theory propsed by norseman create an access to the air in the mechanical rooms?

are you claiming like norseman that a fireball burst through an elevator door?
so where did the fireball get the energy to do that?

and if your saying because you heard wind whipping through the elevator shafts, then tell me bubba, if that is your source of ventilation to create a backdraft, praytell why the deflagration did not occur all the way down the shaft?

next post please try and answer a question as opposed to silly little one liners.

Name isn't Bubba and since you are being an extremely ignorant and condescending little woo AND you hang in a group with nazi wannabes (which means you probably are one yourself) you just put yourself on ignore and I strongly urge everyone else here to do the same.

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by WildCat

Jeff King is a physician who got a degree at MIT in electrical engineering many years ago. He is not an expert on structures..

howdy wildcat,

i posted a link of jeff king BECAUSE within that link he mentions the person who did DESIGN THE CORE AND ELEVATOR SHAFTS. now that person, according to jeff, designed them to be hermetically sealed with fire shutters etc in order to prevent chimney effect. and we all know the jet fuel within the elevator shafts was oxygen starved.

i dont give a hoot if jeff king was a flower shop owner, the theme in THIS thread is "fireball and backdraft" not strutures. i am not concerned about jeff king but the information about the design of the towers i thought was helpful. i hope you can understand that much.

Originally Posted by WildCat

You do know that the elevators were located within the core columns, don't you? How on earth did people get into the elevators if the area they were located was "hermetically sealed"?

This doesn't even make any sense.

for a minute there i thought the elevators were outside the twin towers! thanks for informing me however with that insightful knowledge.

now i know a lot of things dont make sense to you. but i am here to help.
let me say this really slowly - the person who designed the core his name is aron swarsky (i am sure i have spelled his name wrong), well that guy, he designed the core to be hermetically sealed.

that does not mean a person cant enter the core or elevators...through doors i would imagine. i guess you have the same problem trying to figure out how it is possible to enter a submarine?

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Name isn't Bubba and since you are being an extremely ignorant and condescending little woo AND you hang in a group with nazi wannabes (which means you probably are one yourself) you just put yourself on ignore and I strongly urge everyone else here to do the same.

glad to hear that,

run away and have a good cry, at least that way you can avoid answering the questions.

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

I agree, this line of reasoning is total nonsense. We also happen to know from the 1993 WTC bombing that the core did provide a stack effect, and a big one.

There were indeed measures designed in to reduce the stack effect, but that doesn't mean it was zero. Particularly after being nailed by a jetliner.

hey mackey

the impact of a jet liner was 90+ floors above the basement

the elevator shaft was oxygen starved

where did the gas following the fireball, according to norseman's proposal, recieve the ventilation in order to deflagrate? and how was this ventilation created with a fireball?

maybe you can answer that.

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Name isn't Bubba and since you are being an extremely ignorant and condescending little woo AND you hang in a group with nazi wannabes (which means you probably are one yourself) you just put yourself on ignore and I strongly urge everyone else here to do the same.

by the way, i am not a nazi, i dont hang with nazi's, and i dispise nazi's.

remember you called my suggestion "dumb" in your very first remark to me. before if this forum i was extremely polite dispite a bunch of you guys throwing in insulting comments at me.

i have changed my attitude. get over it bubba!

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

i posted a link of jeff king BECAUSE within that link he mentions the person who did DESIGN THE CORE AND ELEVATOR SHAFTS. now that person, according to jeff, designed them to be hermetically sealed with fire shutters etc in order to prevent chimney effect. and we all know the jet fuel within the elevator shafts was oxygen starved.

They could not have been hermetically sealed! Did people have to bring an oxygen tank with them to use the elevators? Do you see how stupid this claim is?

Quote:

i dont give a hoot if jeff king was a flower shop owner,

Sure you do, that's why you called him an "MIT engineer" when in fact he is a "physician from California".

Quote:

now i know a lot of things dont make sense to you. but i am here to help.
let me say this really slowly - the person who designed the core his name is aron swarsky (i am sure i have spelled his name wrong), well that guy, he designed the core to be hermetically sealed.

No elevator is hermetically sealed! People would die of asphyxiation if they were, you'd think a physician would know that!

Quote:

that does not mean a person cant enter the core or elevators...through doors i would imagine. i guess you have the same problem trying to figure out how it is possible to enter a submarine?

Are you claiming the elevators had their own oxygen supply/generator in them, like submarines do?

You really should stop and think about what you are posting. People use elevators, and they like to be able to breathe when they're in them.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

in the following link http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=q8XToX7aSdg

Holy crap! Jeff King even makes the old "black smoke means an oxygen-starved fire" claim. The guys an idiot!

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

by the way, i am not a nazi, i dont hang with nazi's, and i dispise nazi's.

remember you called my suggestion "dumb" in your very first remark to me. before if this forum i was extremely polite dispite a bunch of you guys throwing in insulting comments at me.

i have changed my attitude. get over it bubba!

Your attitude stinks, your suggestion that the elevator shafts are hermetically sealed is dumb and your english is even worse.

Get over it!!

[Newtons Bit]

Originally Posted by WildCat

They could not have been hermetically sealed! Did people have to bring an oxygen tank with them to use the elevators? Do you see how stupid this claim is?


Sure you do, that's why you called him an "MIT engineer" when in fact he is a "physician from California".


No elevator is hermetically sealed! People would die of asphyxiation if they were, you'd think a physician would know that!


Are you claiming the elevators had their own oxygen supply/generator in them, like submarines do?

You really should stop and think about what you are posting. People use elevators, and they like to be able to breathe when they're in them.

I thought you might have been wrong on this one, so I went over and confirmed it with an architect I work with.

Elevator shafts have a min fire-rating of one hour (modern shafts, not sure about those built in the 60's). This means that not only can the fire not spread for one hour, but the smoke. They're air-tight. Mechanical chases are the same way.

The elevator shafts themselves are fed from a different ventilation supply than the rest of the building.

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by WildCat

They could not have been hermetically sealed! Did people have to bring an oxygen tank with them to use the elevators? Do you see how stupid this claim is?


Sure you do, that's why you called him an "MIT engineer" when in fact he is a "physician from California".


No elevator is hermetically sealed! People would die of asphyxiation if they were, you'd think a physician would know that!


Are you claiming the elevators had their own oxygen supply/generator in them, like submarines do?

You really should stop and think about what you are posting. People use elevators, and they like to be able to breathe when they're in them.

i have heard this rant all before. but lets get back to the topic shall we?

fireball and backdraft theory by norseman.

backdraft needs ventilation. we have jet fuel in an oxygen starved shaft.
1) where was the source of the ventilation?
2) how was this source established with a fireball?

so just answer the questions hot shot.

as for hermetically sealed. i am no strutural engineer however on the you tube link jeff cites the person who did design the core and elevator shafts of the twin towers. and he says they were hermetically sealed. how this actually works ...i dont know. can you present someone who designed the core and elevator shafts who claims that they were not hermetically sealed to prevent chimney effect? if not - then just let it rest kiddo.

so get back on topic and stop singing off your hymn sheet

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

Your attitude stinks, your suggestion that the elevator shafts are hermetically sealed is dumb and your english is even worse.

Get over it!!

hey funk, long time

i used to be very polite dispite the insults i routinely got. the attitude generally expressed towards CT's in this forum stinks. read any thread.
so if you cant beat them join them.

Do not insult other posters and do not attempt to swear by altering the spelling.

Posted By:Cuddles

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

I thought you might have been wrong on this one, so I went over and confirmed it with an architect I work with.

Elevator shafts have a min fire-rating of one hour (modern shafts, not sure about those built in the 60's). This means that not only can the fire not spread for one hour, but the smoke. They're air-tight. Mechanical chases are the same way.

The elevator shafts themselves are fed from a different ventilation supply than the rest of the building.

OK, but thewholesoul claims the entire core area was hermetically sealed.

But even as you described, fuel pouring down the shaft would certainly have enough oxygen to ignite, because it is ventilated.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

backdraft needs ventilation. we have jet fuel in an oxygen starved shaft.

It wasn't "oxygen starved"! People still need to breathe in elevators, and as Newton't Bit points out they have their own ventilation system.

Quote:

1) where was the source of the ventilation?

I would guess it's from outside the building.

Quote:

2) how was this source established with a fireball?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

Quote:

can you present someone who designed the core and elevator shafts who claims that they were not hermetically sealed to prevent chimney effect? if not - then just let it rest kiddo.

I'd imagine that the large passenger plane hitting the tower at nearly 500 mph might have done a little damage to the elevator doors, wouldn't you think? If so, so much for hermetically sealed and separate ventilation.

[dudalb]

Pssstt...thewholesoul...there is a wonderful new invention called Capital Letters.You should really find out about them.

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Pssstt...thewholesoul...there is a wonderful new invention called Capital Letters.You should really find out about them.

Again, do not attack other posters and do not try to get around the autocensor.

Posted By:Cuddles

[Newtons Bit]

Originally Posted by WildCat

OK, but thewholesoul claims the entire core area was hermetically sealed.

But even as you described, fuel pouring down the shaft would certainly have enough oxygen to ignite, because it is ventilated.

Well, simply put, the elevator shaft is USUALLY the same shaft that the ventilation ducts go through. These ducts are what supply air to the entire building (well, to the floors tributary to those floors). There would be an exceedingly large amount of available air inside the elevator shaft.

[leftysergeant]

The explosion of the fuel in the cores at the impacted levels drove hot fuel down the elevator shafts. Fire stops are intended to keep fire from rising, generally speaking. The fuel may have been burning when it entered the shafts but consumed too much of the available oxygen and stopped burning until it reached the lower levels. At that hour of the day, from the descriptions of what the workers in the basement were doing, there was probably not a lot of activity in the elevators that did communicate with the impacted floors. Most of the open doors, thus the air supply, would have been on the lower levels. All it would take is one open elevator door.

The walls between elevator shafts were just sheet rock, easily blown out by a slow-propogating explosion such as fuel would create. This accounts for the leakage into shafts not communicating with the impact area.

That Morelli and David heard the blast before experiencing the fireball is not a contradiction. The blast drove the fuel, now burning, into other areas. David was close enough to sustain serious burns. That he lived to tell us anything indicates that there was no HE involved in what hit him. It would have frapped him.

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by WildCat

It wasn't "oxygen starved"! People still need to breathe in elevators, and as Newton't Bit points out they have their own ventilation system.

the point is not whether there was enough ventialtion for people to breathe. the point is whether there was enough ventilation to produce an FAE. for a backdraft some form of ventilation or passage of air is required in order to re-introduce an oxygen supply to the oxygen starved gas.

besides, if you bothered to read the very first post in this thread you would soon realise that you are disputing the position of norseman who states

Originally Posted by Norseman

The keyword is backdraft. The burning jet fuel cascading/raining down the elevator shafts of car number 6,7 and 50 would consume all available oxygen in the shaft on its way down. Behind the burning front of the fireball, in the shafts, there would follow a cloud of expanding hot gasses including evaporated jet fuel, CO and likely pyrolyzed jet fuel, all lacking oxygen to combust.

Originally Posted by WildCat

But even as you described, fuel pouring down the shaft would certainly have enough oxygen to ignite, because it is ventilated.

if there was enough oxygen in the elevator shaft dont you think there would have been an FAE all they way down the shaft, not distributed intermittently as described by the 911 commission?

“A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground.”– 9/11 Commission Report, P. 285

[leftysergeant]

There was not sufficient air in the shafts. That's why explosions only occurred on random floors.

[thewholesoul]

So we go back to the question. Where did the fireball get the energy to burst down the shaft doors as described by norseman NIST and the 911 commission.

Quote:

The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft (Basement level of WTC 1). (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

Now what i imagine will be suggested is that the “overpressure” from the explosion at the impact zone will cause the shaft doors to explode of their hinges.

But if that is one’s position then it is incumbant unpon you to explain how ALL shaft doors were not blown off their hinges ALL the way down the shaft.

Naturally the “overpressure” will be stonger and more intense nearer the impact zone. It makes perfect sense therefore to expect that the shaft doors nearer to the impact zone will be blown off first.

Unfortunately, what we discover is an intermittent pattern of distribution down the elevator shaft in respect to the shaft doors being blown off.

Am i to conclude that some shaft doors are stronger than others? That overpressure can turn on and off? Or decrease, increase and then increase again in pressure as it descends down the shaft?

[thewholesoul]

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

The explosion of the fuel in the cores at the impacted levels drove hot fuel down the elevator shafts. The fuel may have been burning when it entered the shafts but consumed too much of the available oxygen and stopped burning until it reached the lower levels.

“A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact and shot down at least one bank of elevators.The fireball exploded onto numerous lower floors, including the 77th and 22nd; the West Street lobby level; and the B4 level, four stories below ground.”– 9/11 Commission Report, P. 285

it seems that the jet fuel was not oxygen starved at the 77th and 22th floor.
this stop-start explosive behaviour of the jet fuel is rather odd. So why did the descending fireball explode on these floors as opposed to all the floors immediately beneath the impact zone until say, the 77th?

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

At that hour of the day, from the descriptions of what the workers in the basement were doing, there was probably not a lot of activity in the elevators that did communicate with the impacted floors. Most of the open doors, thus the air supply, would have been on the lower levels. All it would take is one open elevator door.

This is not the position of NIST they claim that

Quote:

The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft (Basement level of WTC 1). (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

So no mention here of “open doors”. Besides if a car is commuting within the elevator shaft the shaft door will remain closed until the car reaches the basement level. This is a basic safety measure.

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

The walls between elevator shafts were just sheet rock, easily blown out by a slow-propogating explosion such as fuel would create. This accounts for the leakage into shafts not communicating with the impact area.

Sorry lefty, i dont buy it.

Does NIST explain how this transition/leakage between shafts occured or are you just making that up? How do suggest that once a “backdraft” destroyed one such transition wall – that the jet fuel, not consumed by the backdraft, would then leak into another elevator shaft and then create another fireball and backdraft elsewhere?

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

That Morelli and David heard the blast before experiencing the fireball is not a contradiction. The blast drove the fuel, now burning, into other areas. David was close enough to sustain serious burns. That he lived to tell us anything indicates that there was no HE involved in what hit him. It would have frapped him.

We have a fireball descending the freight elevator shaft. we have occupants in car 50 within this elevator shaft. we have two individuals standing beside the freight elevator shaft door, one at b1 and the other at b4. you want me to believe that this fireball past car 50, without destroying the car, and suddenly exploded between b1 and b4 thereby blowing out or destroying the shaft door at b2-3 thus creating a deflagration which caused another burning fireball witnessed my David and Morelli?

Tell me lefty, how did the fireball blow out the b2-3 shaft door? from where did this oxygen starved fireball recieve the oxygen? Why didnt the fireball just descend all the way down the shaft as one would naturally expect to happen?

[thewholesoul]

the magic fireball is supposed to have past the freight car 50 and then burst down the shaft door at b2-3.

read the following statemnet by Harry Waizer. this is what one expects to hear when a fireball passes over your elevator car!!

Waizer, to the 9/11 Commission: The elevator was ascending when, suddenly, I felt it rocked by an explosion, and then felt it plummeting. Orange, streaming sparks were apparent through the gaps in the doors at the sides of the elevator as the elevator scraped the walls of the shaft. The elevator burst into flame. I began to beat at the flames, burning my hands, arms and legs in the process. The flames went out, but I was hit in the face and neck by a separate fireball that came through the gap in the side of the elevator doors. The elevator came to a stop on the 78th floor, the doors opened, and I jumped out.

arturo griffith or marlene cruz report no sparks, no heat, no flames, in fact there is no mention or even the slighest allusion that a fireball had past there car. kinda strange dont you think? and lets not forget, this fireball had the strength to blown down the shaft door at b2-3 yet it magically did no harm to car 50 or its occupants.

[thewholesoul]

According to NIST the only route or passage for the jet fuel was down elevator shaft 6, 7, and 50.

An elevator engineer in the south tower reports:
“We heard the explosion and within a matter of seconds after that impact, I heard – and as well as everybody else heard – this noise, this increasing sound of wind. And it was getting louder and louder. It was like a bomb, not quite the sound of a bomb coming down from a bomber. It was a sound of wind increasing, a whistling sound, increasing in sound

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

And apparently from what I talked to with other mechanics, they saw the doors, the hatch doors blow off in the lobby level of 6 and 7 car.”
http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts

and we all know the story of Arturo Griffith and Marlene Cruz in car 50.

In the following testimony we will hear accounts of people being burnt within or beside “local” elevator shafts. All these testimonies can be found at Gravy’s paper: william rodriguez escape artist http://911stories.googlepages.com/

1 According to the accounts I have heard, Debbie was in the lobby waiting for an elevator when AA Flight 11 hit on 93. The jet fuel from the plane poured down the elevator shafts. Owing to the way the elevators are laid out, I don't understand how the fuel got into the elevator that she was waiting for. There are / (were) "Sky Lobbies" on 44 and on 78. So to go above those floors, you took an express elevator to the appropriate sky lobby and then transferred to a local elevator. The elevator machinery was located on the floors above the sky lobbies; only a very few shafts continued all the way up . Anyway, apparently she was in the lobby, the elevator shaftway doors opened and a fireball hit her with full force. She survived and was taken to a hospital with 90% burns. After lingering for about 50 days she died

2 Lobby & 3rd floor: Firefighter Peter Blaich
As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about I didn’t recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. That’s when Lieutenant Foti said oh, that’s the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if you’re camping and you drop a kerosene lamp.

3 Firefighter John Moribito: I noticed that some of the elevators had been blown out of their shafts. They came down and crashed out of the shaft. They were buckled, and I had noticed that there were people still in the elevators. I believe that they were at that point deceased.

4 Firefighter Timothy Brown: We finally set up -- prior to this I believe it was the west side of the core of the building there were elevators. Someone had come to me and said that there were people trapped in one of those elevators. So I ran around the corner, and the hoist way doors were open, but the elevator car was only showing about two feet at the top of the door. You could see all the legs of the people that were in the elevator. I would guess there were about eight people in the elevator. The elevator pit was on fire with the jet fuel.

There are other examples available but these shall suffice.

The question is: if 6, 7, and 50 are the only pathways available for the jet fuel fireballs then how do we explain these four cases above? In the twin towers there were THREE zones in the buildings the first zone ran from one to 42, the second zone started from 44 to 76, and the third zone started from 78 to 110. the four examples above occured in the first zone. That means the jet fuel had to travel down the elevator shaft from the third zone and SOMEHOW leak into the local elevators where these people were found dead or became burnt.

In USATODAY they state: “Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.”

Unfortunately, USA TODAY never explain this "shaft to shaft" process.

Lefty sergent attempts one such explanation he states

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

The walls between elevator shafts were just sheet rock, easily blown out by a slow-propogating explosion such as fuel would create. This accounts for the leakage into shafts not communicating with the impact area.

Unfortunately lefty sergeant does not explain in detail exactly what “slow-propogating explosion” entails. Wouldn’t the jet fuel be entirely consummed from such an explosion? it just seems a tad inconceivable that sufficient jet fuel could remain unconsummed after such an event to incinerate people, create fireballs in various local elevators.

I cant recall NIST mentioning much less explaining this shaft to shaft transfer of jet fuel. Moreover let us not forget that the jet fuel is descending in a downwards projection as NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder says that “the burning jet fuel simply followed the path of least resistance.” Can descending jet fuel in one elevator shaft survive an explosion unconsummed and then swing a right turn into another elevator shaft?

So the question is for whoever cares is...explain this “shaft to shaft” transfer that skipped two zones, an explosion, and defied the natural trajectory of gravity to jump into another shaft with a sufficient amount of combustible jet fuel so as to cause another raging fireball.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by thewholesoul

Unfortunately, USA TODAY never explain this "shaft to shaft" process.

There were several elevators on the floor the plane impacted. The fuel went in all of them. I don't know if the shafts were separated from each other, or several elevators were side-by-side in the same shaft. If the latter, it explains how fuel could get into other elevators.

Quote:

Wouldn’t the jet fuel be entirely consummed from such an explosion? it just seems a tad inconceivable that sufficient jet fuel could remain unconsummed after such an event to incinerate people, create fireballs in various local elevators.

Only about 15% of the fuel burned in the initial fireball, after that point there was no more oxygen left to support combustion. The fuel that didn't burn was then free to flow across the floors and down the shafts until sufficient oxygen re-entered the building, whereupon it ignited explosively.

With so many firemen describing the smell of jet fuel, why would you think this didn't happen? Did NWO agents go around pouring jet fuel all over the elevator shafts?