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Tags David Gilroy , murder cases , Scotland cases

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Old 25th September 2018, 11:49 PM   #481
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The split times for the journey match way too well with him going Ardlui - Balloch - Drymen, never mind the phone data.

There are early press reports saying the police were giving out that his phone had pinged a mast in Glen Croe during both "lost time" periods and that was the original reason for searching there, but that wasn't actually true so I'm not sure what was going on with that. I'm suspicious of eyewitness reports because people can "remember" things quite differently from what actually happened once they've thought about them in the light of police appeals for information.

In terms of the time available, if he went into the Arrochar Alps at all I think that must be where the body is, but I'm still hazy about how certain it is that he did that.

Do you have a link to the indictment? I remember reading the appeal judgement but I don't think I've seen the indictment.
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Old 26th September 2018, 09:02 AM   #482
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All I can now find is the appeal against the conviction from December 2012 (search for David Gilroy v Her Majestys Advocate scotcourts) but I think I have copy/pasted the original indictment which I will post asap.
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Old 26th September 2018, 09:33 AM   #483
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I think the appeal is what I found earlier. It's all just a technicality. He says he was questioned as a suspect without being cautioned. Cops maintained (implausibly) that he was only regarded as a witness at that time, and Carloway sided with the cops. I think they should have cautioned him. But since he didn't make any incriminating admissions, it's all a bit academic.
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Old 27th September 2018, 09:44 AM   #484
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If we take this one stage at a time, the first stage is leaving IML Edinburgh and stopping for fuel and a sandwich at the Esso on Queensferry Road. Then why not switch his phone off as he was leaving IML on Thistle Street or at the Esso. He chooses to switch his phone off near Nyadd. Is this to give the police a clue that he was driving on the A84 or possibly the A811, was he that bothered where he switched his phone off or did he forget to switch his phone off ? If he had switched his phone off at IML or at the Esso this would have given the police a lot more work to do.
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Old 27th September 2018, 12:03 PM   #485
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Yes, let's start from the beginning, one stage at a time, so you can tell me all these little details I don't actually know! I was thinking he had to have stopped to get a sandwich somewhere but I didn't know that was where. And petrol too, that explains how the cops were able to calculate how much he'd burned on the journey. I'm slightly surprised that was where he stopped, because he only dropped four minutes on the AA time on that leg of the journey and I usually reckon on a minimum of five minutes to fill up and pay for it. Also if 11:06 was when he left the office he had to get to his car and get it out on to the street. So doing all that and getting to Barnton Junction by 11:25 was good going. But the driving times are approximate anyway.

Please post any wee details you know, because I didn't start looking at this until a lot of the useful links had gone dead and you obviously know stuff I don't.

As regards his phone, the abiding mystery to me is why he didn't "forget" the thing and leave it behind in Thistle Street. Or at least keep it switched off except when he was actually in Lochgilphead, if he really really couldn't leave it behind.

But having said that, the only thing the phone told the cops was that he drove that weird detour through Ardlui on the way back. The rest of what they knew was all from the CCTV cameras. The camera at Doune Motors shows him actually committed to the Tyndrum route by 12:09 unless he was going to do a very convoluted bit of backtracking, and then the Tyndrum camera at 13:22 confirms he didn't do any back-tracking at all. So what with the petrol stop, the Barnton Junction camera and the Doune Motors camera, the mobile phone pings didn't add anything at all to that section. The timings indicate that he didn't stop before he got to Tyndrum, or at least not long enough to do anything nefarious (ten minutes tops). They can essentially ignore the first 85 miles of the journey. Turning the phone on after Inveraray also didn't tell the cops anything they didn't know, that he didn't stop between Inveraray and Lochgilphead either. The important information, the 1 hour 51 minutes unaccounted-for between Tyndrum and Inveraray, was acquired without using any mobile phone data at all.

On the way back Gilroy switched his phone on just one minute before the Inveraray camera caught him heading east, so the phone data were redundant again. The only thing the phone pings did was confirm the Ardlui route on the way back. If all the police had had was the 21:08 CCTV sighting at Tyndrum, they might have wondered why he didn't get to Corstorphine until 23:26, since that drive should only take an hour and 46 minutes. It would appear at first sight that he'd lost another half hour. But knowing he detoured by Ardlui explains that, because that route back to the capital is nearly 20 miles and 30 minutes driving time longer.

We don't know if they looked for him on CCTV cameras in Balloch or Drymen or on the A811. They may not have bothered to look, if they had the conclusive phone data for that section. If they hadn't had that they might have been able to place him on that route with another CCTV sighting or two.

But the only thing the phone mast pings reveal that the cameras don't is the Ardlui detour.
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Old 27th September 2018, 03:20 PM   #486
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Hang on, according to the AA Route Finder, Nyadd is now before the two routes diverge.

It all hinges on how you get from J10 of the M9 on to the A811. You can turn right at the roundabout at the end of the slip road (the junction with the A84) and take that strange double-back that skirts Raploch, which has about four more roundabouts in it. That's the way the AA suggested the previous times I checked that route. But I checked it again just now while doing a different calculation, and it's now saying that turning left on to the A84 is the better way to get to the A811.

This actually takes you right past Nyadd to a left turn on to the B8075 and down to the A811 that way. Looking at it, that really would be the preferred way to do it. It's a perfectly straight road with only one junction, rather than all these roundabouts and tight bends involved in the double-back.

Gilroy was a frequent traveller to Lochgilphead. He probably took the Arrochar route on occasion. It's quite likely he saw the A84/B8075 as the actual point of divergence. And his last phone ping is just before that point. The Doune Motors camera is just two miles after the divergence.


ETA: I've figured out what it is with the AA Route Finder. If you ask it for the route west to east it will give you the Raploch double-back. If you ask if for east to west, which is the direction we're actually talking about, it tells you to take the A84 past Nyadd and then the B8075
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Old 28th September 2018, 07:24 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
On the way back Gilroy switched his phone on* just one minute before the Inveraray camera caught him heading east....

*off, obvs.
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Old 28th September 2018, 09:50 AM   #488
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Website for the locations of the masts

https://fusiontables.google.com/Data...lzwZJ#map:id=3

Picture of the masts near Nyadd.

mast locations.jpg

Calculated guess is that the mast that Gilroys phone pinged before he switched it off is not at Nyadd but it is on the southeast side of the junction 10 exit of the M9. (the yellow dot)

This masts range of 5km will stretch to just beyond Nyadd on the A84.

It would also stretch to a mile before the junction of the A811 and B8075.

Picture of 5km range of mast. (in green)

map circle nyadd.jpg

By switching his phone off within this masts 5km range Gilroy has given the police a lot of guesswork as to the route he took.

But the Doune motors camera pointed them in the right direction.

I can only find this info which relates to the appeal

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/forma...d)+AND+(gilroy)

and this

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/forma...s/ScotCS/2016/[2016]CSIH18.html&query=(david)+AND+(gilroy)

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Old 28th September 2018, 01:03 PM   #489
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Using http://map.environment.gov.scot/Soil_maps/?layer=1

The majority of the soil around the Rest and Be Thankful is
Generalised Soil Type - Peaty podzols
Major Soil Group - Podzols
Major Soil Subgroup - Peaty gleyed podzols
Parent Material - Drifts derived from arenaceous schists and strongly metamorphosed argillaceous schists of the Dalradian Series
Soil Association - Strichen
Component Soils - Peaty gleyed podzols with peaty gleys with dystrophic semi-confined peat
Land Form - Hummocky valley and slope moraines

There are no roads that lead to exact soil matches on the B8074.
I checked along the A85 near Tyndrum and one place on the map which matches the soil exactly is here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.44...7i13312!8i6656

If he was determined enough he could get into the forest from here and it does not look gated (although there is a gate to the left but no gate straight ahead)

There are no roads leading to exact matches north of Tyndrum and Bridge of Orchy on the A82 and none between Tyndrum and Crianlarich.

The soil types do not match between Crianlarich and Ardlui.

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Old 29th September 2018, 04:10 AM   #490
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Phone masts. That's very helpful. I wonder why they said Nyadd when there doesn't appear to be a mast actually at Nyadd? But even if it was the one at Blair Drummond they meant, it's clear he switched off before his phone had a chance to connect to a mast that would unequivocally place him on the A84 beyond the turning for the A811.

The Inveraray end is also perfectly clear. He switched on after he'd passed through Inveraray and switched off again a minute before the Inveraray CCTV caught him in Main Street West. So all three of these switchings were pretty neatly designed to obfuscate whether he took the northern or the southern loops. Coincidence? I think not.

It's the Loch Lomond one that's bugging me. That map doesn't show a mast at Ardvorlich at all, although I found a listing for one on a different web site. Maybe the Ardvorlich one is newer? It could have been a planning application I saw, although it did list the masts at Ardlui and Inverarnan that are marked.

I've tried ignoring the identity of the actual mast and simply calculating where he should have got to if he went through Tyndrum at 21:08. The answer is just beyond Inveruglas, kind of opposite Inversnaid. Actually there's a mast at Inversnaid too. Here's what I worked out.

Ardlui13.0 miles17 minutes21:25
Ardvorlich15.5 miles21 minutes21:29
Inveruglas17.2 miles25 minutes21:33
Blairannaich19.9 miles30 minutes21:38
Tarbet21.0 miles32 minutes21:40
Stuckgowan22.1 miles34 minutes21:42

The distances and times are what the AA web site gives to these places from Tyndrum, and the last column is the time at each place if 21:08 is the starting time at Tyndrum. I'm not so fussed which mast the phone pinged because all these mountains can cause funny things to happen, but he was driving more or less at the AA estimated speeds pretty much all day and you can't get him as far as Tarbet by 21:34.

Obviously it's approximate, and I'll bet I could get to Tarbet from Tyndrum in 25 minutes if I put my mind to it, but there's no evidence he was pushing his speed that day. So if he was trying to mislead an investigation that he had come over the Rest and Be Thankful and joined the Loch Lomondside road at Tarbet, he switched on about six minutes too soon. I did wonder if he had mistaken Inveruglas for Tarbet, but there's really no comparison and surely he was familiar with the layout of the road junction at Tarbet, where the "through road" is actually the Balloch-Arrochar route.
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Old 29th September 2018, 04:33 AM   #491
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Glen Lochy. I had a look at all that earlier because I spotted the thing about the soil types. However Google Streetview has a picture of that spot from March 2010, just two months before Gilroy was there, and both tracks are gated. https://goo.gl/maps/m2bJFL1n6SL2 Both still gated in April 2011. https://goo.gl/maps/hj851UjzMNT2

It's actually the one that bears left that leads deep into the forest, the one that goes straight up doesn't go very far. But having said that, maybe far enough.

What we don't know is whether these gates - or indeed any or most of the others - were locked. If they were just latched, and say people on horseback could get in, so could a Vauxhall Vectra. But stopping at one gate after another to check if he could get in would eat up quite a lot of time.

I still wonder if he had an OS map.
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Old 29th September 2018, 05:44 AM   #492
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I've been thinking about timings and particularly that the police theory about what Gilroy did has way too much driving and leaves too little time for concealing the body. Sure he could have dumped the body and covered it with vegetation, but he didn't have time to do a proper job, not even by going back on the return journey.

Thistle Street to the Rest and Be Thankful via Arrochar is 92.8 miles with a driving time of 2 hours 13 minutes. Going round by Inveraray is 130.5 miles with a driving time of 3 hours 10 minutes. Basically the police seem to think Gilroy wasted almost an hour driving a very circuitous route to throw them off the scent - but by switching his phone off at Stirling he actually prevented them knowing about the circuitous route. What's the point of wasting all that time driving round if you don't leave any clues to let any investigators figure out that that's what you did?

So Gilroy could have been at the Rest and Be Thankful by twenty past one. In order to get to Inveraray by ten to four, he'd have had to leave by half past three. That would have given him over two hours in the area to scout around and find somewhere suitable, offload the body and get it some distance away from whatever track he was on, and maybe dig a shallow grave. Given the thin soil and the rocks and the roots I kind of doubt that last part, but if you found the right spot maybe it would be possible.

But taking the loop round to the north means he doesn't get to the Rest and Be Thankful till quarter past two. He still has to have left by half past three, and that's the best-case scenario. An hour and a quarter to do all that? I don't think it's possible.

So one might imagine he was forced to revisit the spot on the way back, but the timings aren't any better there. After passing through Inveraray at 18:58 he'd have been at the Rest and Be Thankful by twenty past seven. We know he was at Tarbet at approximately twenty to ten. Rest and Be Thankful to Tarbet via Arrochar is only 8.2 miles and takes a whole 14 minutes. So he could have stayed in the area for three hours on the way back and still got to Corstorphine by half past eleven via Drymen, exactly as he did. If he'd done that he might have had time to do a pretty decent body-concealing job, something that could be overlooked by a fingertip search three months later.

But instead he chose to go back by Inveraray and Tyndrum. This is SIXTY-FOUR MILES and the driving time is 1 hour 34 minutes. To do that he must have left the Rest and Be Thankful by five past eight. 20:05. Three quarters of an hour. Adding only ten minutes each way to get him to wherever he'd left the body (and I think that's an underestimate if he went up a forest track) and we're down to 25 minutes at the actual disposal site. It's ludicrous.

It might not be ludicrous in the context of a successful misdirection exercise. Gilroy might have decided to prioritise laying a false trail to prevent an investigation looking in the right place, over effective concealment of the body. If you managed to prevent the investigators looking in the Arrochar Alps in the first place you could practically dump the body in a ditch by the roadside and scarper. But he wasn't successful, if that was what he planned.

If that was what he planned, it was a daft plan on several levels. First, the direct road to Lochgilphead goes over the Rest and Be Thankful so there was really no way it wasn't at least going to cross the investigators' minds. Second, Gilroy himself left no clue that he hadn't gone that way apart from a phone mast connection that was just a few miles too far north on the Loch Lomondside road, which was very ambiguous and certainly didn't prove he'd driven the Tyndrum route either way. Third, the cops didn't fall for it and homed in on the Arrochar Alps pretty early on.

So he wasted all that time driving miles and miles further than need be, all for nothing. But the body hasn't been found. He didn't have enough time to do anything like a proper concealment job, and he seemed to be banking on the area not being searched. But the area was searched, thoroughly.

She's not there.
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Old 29th September 2018, 06:53 AM   #493
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That's why I like your Glen Lochy theory. If he got off the road roughly where you indicate, it maximises the time he has to conceal the body. He really does have an hour and 50 minutes on the way out and an hour and a half on the way back. There's no detour.

The other possibility I think is the A82 north to Bridge of Orchy. A detour up that way makes some sense, especially if he was hoping the cops would think he'd gone by the southern loop. Get as far north as the northern loop goes, and then go a bit further.

Bridge of Orchy is 8 minutes. Tulla cottage is 16 minutes. I think that's about your lot or you're hitting the same problems as with the proposed Rest and Be Thankful detour, that too much time is spent driving to do a decent body-concealing job. The B8074 is in the frame time-wise though and I'm not entirely sure there are no soil matches there. But I don't think north of Loch Tulla is very likely.

I don't imagine Gilroy had the foggiest idea about soil types, but I do think he was hoping the investigators would think he'd been in the Arrochar Alps. So if he wasn't in the Arrochar Alps, he must have coincidentally hit a spot where the soil and vegetation were similar. That's the A85 until about a couple of miles before Inverlochy, or the A82 north from Tyndrum with a practical range of about Loch Tulla. And I'm not quite giving up on the B8074 Glen Orchy road just yet, especially as we know there was a search there so that could suggest they thought the soil type match might be good enough.

That's an 8-mile stretch of the A85, a 10-mile stretch of the A82, and the 8 miles of the B8074. A turnoff somewhere on these 26 miles of road. She's got to be there somewhere.

Unless she's somewhere very much closer to Edinburgh, which is always the other possibility.
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Old 29th September 2018, 08:31 AM   #494
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I took another look at the Scotlands soils website and I checked for the same soil type found at the Rest and Be Thankful that are within 10 miles west and north of Tyndrum.

Starting from the B8074 and A85 junction to the B8074 and A82 junction

1 - B8074 single track road to the east of the B8074, gated, but not known if gate is locked, Google image taken April 2011.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.41...7i13312!8i6656

2- B8074 single track road to the west of the B8074, near Achnafalnich, although this ungated single track road looks exposed and leads to River Orchy. Google image taken April 2011.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.41...7i13312!8i6656

3 - B8074 bridge over River Orchy near Eas Urchaidh waterfall leads into the wrong type of soil, the area has mineral podzols but we are looking for peaty podzols.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.44...7i13312!8i6656

4 - B8074 single track road to the east of of the B8074, gated, but not known if gate is locked, beyond the gate it looks exposed but does lead into dense forest, Google image taken April 2011.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.49...7i13312!8i6656

5 - Near the end of the B8074 just before the B8074 meets the A82, single track ungated road, bit exposed but some tree cover, Google image taken April 2011.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.50...7i13312!8i6656

Although the soil found in all of these locations have the same Generalised Soil Type (Peaty podzols) and the same Major Soil Group (Podzols) and the same Major Soil Subgroup (Peaty gleyed podzols) I have included areas where the Parent Material, Soil Association, Component Soils and Land Form may be different to the Parent Material, Soil Association, Component Soils and Land Form found in the Rest and be Thankful area.

I will have a (virtual) look around Loch Tulla next.
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Old 29th September 2018, 09:13 AM   #495
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We have to bear in mind that the press reports also talk about vegetation analysis, and I presume more detailed analysis has been done than we know about, and than is available from that web site. However the question is, when you have the analysis of what was on Gilroy's car, which locations could that be compatible with? I don't know how many samples they took and from where to answer that question.

But there has to be something wrong here. I don't see how Suzanne can possibly be in the Arrochar Alps. The timings are way too tight for him to have buried her properly and he can't have taken her far from a road or a track. They should have found her. Also, the behaviour they are proposing for Gilroy is frankly ludicrous, including that he drove for hours of his precious time more than he had to, to lay a false trail, and yet he left no clues behind to show that he had driven that supposedly red-herring route.

That soil and vegetation analysis is the only concrete evidence that says he was in the Arrochar Alps, and it's doing an awful lot of heavy lifting here. I think it has to be questioned.
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Old 29th September 2018, 12:30 PM   #496
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Nothing found from the A82 and B8074 junction to the junction of the A82 and Bridge of Orchy.

1 - At Bridge of Orchy to the north on these single track roads where the soil matches, they look ungated and lead into forest for some distance. Google image taken April 2011.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.51...7i13312!8i6656

The track first on the left eventually passes a farmhouse but the other track with the open gate reaches a dead end after 4 miles so there is potential there.

The other road is the West Highland Way (towards Loch Tulla) but it is very doubtful he went that way due to the distance to the Inveroran Hotel and the high risk of being seen.

2 - Back to the A82 and going north on the opposite side of the A82 to Tulla cottage area this road although exposed has an open gate which leads into dense forest. Google image taken June 2017.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.56...7i13312!8i6656

Another possibility is the single track road off the B8077 at Glen Strae. (north of the A819 and A85 junction) but apart from that its the roads off the A83 like the A815.

The extra information I have that you may not know about is

In addition to buying air fresheners Gilroy bought charcoal (to mask any smells)

Gilroy (with his wife and kids) drove his Vectra (presumably with the body in the boot) to a restaurant for a meal on Tuesday night 4th May 2010.

In the days after 5th May 2010 he reported to the police that his house was broken into and a laptop was stolen.

David 'Gilly' Gilroy, service number D195268S was an engineer in the Royal Navy from 1982 to 1993 where he served on the ships HMS Andromeda, HMS Brazen and HMS Boxer reaching the rank of Chief Petty Officer Marine Engineering Artificer (CPOMEA)

Picture of Gilroy at paying for fuel at the Esso Queensferry Road petrol station (with his sandwich)

petrolstation.jpg

Picture of Gilroy at Lochgilphead School at 16.29

School.jpg

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Old 29th September 2018, 02:16 PM   #497
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Going back to Ardlui at 21.34.

If the 4 masts between Beinglas campsite and Falloch Falls on the west side of the A82 have a radius of 5km then they would pick up his phone signal until he was in between Ardlui and Stuckindroin.

But the mast that picked his phone up was at the marina at Ardlui so he must have been out of range of the Beinglas/Falloch Falls masts.

See picture here.

2 x radius.jpg

It would take 14 minutes from that point to get to the junction of the A82 and A83 at Tarbet.

The time would be 21.48.

From Tarbet it would take 97 minutes to get to the Tesco Extra (where he parked) arriving between 23.25 and 23.35 and he walked for 5 minutes from there to Corstorphine police station arriving at 23.40.

This confirms his arrival time of 23.40 at Corstoprhine police station.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-17209732

Strangely though it takes 17 minutes from The Green Welly to the point in between Ardlui and Stuckindroin but it took him from 21.08 to 21.34 which is 26 minutes (an extra 9 minutes) He was either going slow or he was up to something for 9 minutes or more between Tyndrum and Ardlui.

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Old 29th September 2018, 03:02 PM   #498
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I think it might just be that the topography round there does strange things to the mobile phone signal. At the moment I'm simply working on the mobile phone connections proving that he took the right fork for the A82 at Crianlarich and drove to Balloch and thence through Drymen to the M9 and back.

I'm suggesting that he was a bit south of Inveruglas at 21:34, which is where the AA times place him, and the Ardlui mast connection was a fluke. But come on, you've seen that road. Any signal could bounce a lot of weird places.

But actually it doesn't matter. He was somewhere between Ardlui and Tarbet at that point but you'd have to enlist some pretty heavy-duty special pleading to get him as far as Tarbet. I tried, but I concede defeat on that one. Although when I played with the AA web site it gave me 32 minutes from Tyndrum to Tarbet, which is 21:40. Still six minutes after he apparently switched the phone on though.
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Old 29th September 2018, 04:00 PM   #499
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I'm trying to write a paper getting my thoughts in order about this. This is how I eventually solved Lockerbie, and this isn't such a hard problem - it's just that we don't have the detailed evidence I eventually got sight of for Lockerbie. I'll let you see it when I've got it into reasonable shape and you can tell me if I've got anything wrong.

The more I think it through the more I think the body can't be in the Arrochar Alps. Logically, it's insane. But policemen can get tunnel vision about things sometimes. The soil and vegetation analysis is doing some very heavy lifting and I think it has to be questioned whether it's being interpreted correctly.

It's notable that they did search Glen Orchy so they weren't completely wedded to the Arrochar Alps, also that when they found that other woman's body buried on Corstorphine Hill they thought at first it was Suzanne, so they're not entirely wedded to the Argyll theory. But they're still pretty attached to it.
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Old 29th September 2018, 04:18 PM   #500
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That's amazing about the restaurant meal. I had imagined him spending the evening plotting the Lochgilphead journey. Was he actually living with his wife and kids at the time? If so that rather puts a crimp in how much time he could reasonably spend poring over OS maps even is he had the things. And it may make it less likely that he left the house during the night and disposed of the body somewhere near Edinburgh.

On that subject, this caught my eye the other day. https://goo.gl/maps/pMPLN1JNDvt

The barrier is low and there's no fence behind it. The trees and shrubs are surrounded by roads on all sides with no reason for anyone to go there. It's obvious it's been planted like that so it can just be left, and the trees are a screen for the road. If you stopped there about two in the morning you'd have a good chance of unloading a body without anyone noticing.

If any of my enemies ever disappears without trace, look there!
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Old 30th September 2018, 12:43 AM   #501
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Missing 27 minutes between Lochgilphead and Inverarary

My mistake about the phone call, the appeal

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/forma...d)+AND+(gilroy

at paragraph 21 states

'He had gone to several meetings, before leaving the office and heading for Lochgilhead at about 11.30. (more like 11.05 to 11.10)
He had arrived there at about 4.30, when he had noticed the voice mails asking him to contact the police.
He had phoned his office and spoken to a policeman for, he thought, more than an hour.
By this time, he had also observed that there was something wrong with his car.'

This indicates that the phone call was made when he was actually in Lochgilphead School not back on the road to Inverarary.
Will look for the correct soil between Lochgilphead to Inveraray as it is possible that he collected this soil between Lochgilphead and Inveraray in the 27 extra minutes it took him to drive from Lochgilphead to Inveraray.

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Old 30th September 2018, 02:19 AM   #502
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I suspect there's an innocent explanation for the 27 minutes, although I'd like to know what it is. If the only thing he'd had to eat all day was that sandwich he bought in Edinburgh, he may have gone on into Lochgilphead itself to get something else to eat.

That return journey was really full of delays though. First the unexplained 27 minutes to Inveraray, then the hour and 32 minutes off-piste before he got to Tyndrum, then another half hour lost by driving down Loch Lomondside rather than going straight back through Lochearnhead and Callander. There isn't the sense of urgency you'd expect from someone who has deposited an inadequately-concealed corpse and needs to go back and do a better job.
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Old 30th September 2018, 02:56 AM   #503
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Peaty Podzols and secluded areas between Lochgilphead and Inveraray with access from main road on to forest track without a gate (or open gate) are

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.13...7i13312!8i6656

This is single track road with "private" sign although dont see any building past the sign. Google image taken October 2015.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.13...7i13312!8i6656

This is a disused quarry opposite the Quarry view coffee shop and garden centre, lots of camouflage not too far off the A83 but looks fenced off in Google image taken October 2015 so cannot drive too far in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.15...7i13312!8i6656

Furnace Quarry, and the road past it is a possibility, Quarry still in use as of Google image taken May 2011.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.16...7i13312!8i6656

Single track road, looks ungated, starts off initially with wrong soil but go further in and the correct soil is there, Google image taken October 2015.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats all I can see on the A83 between Lochgilphead and Inveraray and he could have spent 27 minutes in any one of these areas.

Moving on to the A819 there are actually a few areas off the A819 which match.

Starting with the west side of the A819.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.24...7i13312!8i6656

Single track road, gated but open in the Google image dated September 2015, incidentally this leads to Steallaire Ban Loch

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.23...1138615,16.89z
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.25...7i13312!8i6656

This is where I went last year and the entrance to this track has the wrong soil although the correct soil is further on but there is no way a car could access the correct soil further on due due the gradient, so this can be ruled out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.28...7i13312!8i6656

Leads to Drimfern where the soil matches exactly (the soil association is Strichen) but ruled out due to buildings in the vicinity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the woods a bit further north here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.28...7i13312!8i6656

Near Drimfern, secluded right next to the A819 and the soil is an exact match (the soil association is Strichen whereas the other areas were Knockskae)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The access to the correct soil types from the east side of the A819 are

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.28...7i13312!8i6656

On the opposite side of the road from Drimfern, correct soil (including Strichen) but exposed entrance to get to woods although a car would pick up vegetation getting there, Google image taken September 2015.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further north on the east side of the A819 , correct soil (including Strichen) both entrances are blocked by boulders in the Google image taken September 2015 but the boulders may not have been there in May 2010.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.28...7i13312!8i6656
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats all I can see east and west on the A819, so a few possibilities off the A819 where he had more time for disposal than just the 27 minutes between Lochgilphead and Inveraray.
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Old 30th September 2018, 03:40 AM   #504
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The soil asociation around the Rest and Be Thankful is 100% strichen so I excluded any areas on the A819 where the soil association is not strichen which leaves three areas all within a 0.3 mile stretch, going from north to south

1 - the track with boulders at both entrances on the east side
2 - the exposed entrance to get to the woods on the east side
3 - The woods near Drimfern on the west side

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

This is worth a visit along with the possibilities mentioned earlier on the A85.
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Old 30th September 2018, 04:10 AM   #505
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Applying the same criteria as above with access to single track roads without gates, there are two points on the A85

Here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.42...7i13312!8i6656

And here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.44...7i13312!8i6656

These two points are three miles apart https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...e3!4m2!4m1!3e0
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Old 30th September 2018, 04:23 AM   #506
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Applying the same criteria as above with access to single track roads without gates, there is only one point on the B8074

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.41...7i13312!8i6656

(the tracks with gates pictured on Google street view may or may not have been there in May 2010 but the tracks without gates are more likely to have never had gates on them at all whereas the tracks with gates can be looked at later if the tracks without gates are found not to be the disposal site)

Will need to plan a visit back to the A819 and check the three possible disposal sites and the two possible sites on the A85 and the one possible site on the B8074.

Any other suggestions about possible disposal sites ?
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Old 30th September 2018, 10:11 AM   #507
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You know, I don't think we're going to find the exact right place by googling it. We don't have the full details of the soil and vegetation analysis needed to begin to figure out whether specific tracks are in the frame or not. It's probably not even possible - even with the full analysis the search parties didn't seem to have any particular clue where they should be looking in the Arrochar Alps.

I'm thinking, the best we can do is probably point to the other main area accessible from the Tyndrum-Inveraray road that's the same colour on the soil map as the Arrochar Alps, and say, in there somewhere? Then it's more a question of getting inside his head and figuring where he might have gone. That double-entrance track on the A85 near Lochan na Bi is a good shout, supposing at least one of the gates isn't locked, or wasn't that day.

It also has the advantage that no time is wasted driving off the main route and so more time is available for actually concealing the body. The further up the A82 you get up towards Loch Tulla, or indeed up the B8074, the less time he has to dig a grave or whatever.
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Old 30th September 2018, 01:48 PM   #508
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This is a bit gruesome, but I do wonder how he dealt with rigor mortis.

He killed her about 9 am, and hid the body in the recess in the basement. He had to get a taxi to his mother's house then she gave him a lift home so he could drive his car back into work. I don't think anybody knows exactly when he put Suzanne into his car boot but it seems fairly likely rigor mortis had already set in. So either he had the foresight to stash her body in a position in which it would be possible to get it into the boot of his car, or he had some work to do to break the rigor to flex her limbs. It can take a lot of force to break rigor, so if he had to do that there must have been quite a scene going on in that basement. Especially as he would have had to make sure the body didn't touch the inside of his car and was always contained within whatever sheets he'd brought to make sure there wasn't any DNA to recover.
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:21 AM   #509
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One of many

Between Tyndrum (13.23) and Inveraray (15.51) it took him 148 minutes.

Between Inveraray (18.59) and Tyndrum (21.08) it took him 129 minutes.

An extra 19 minutes taken on the Tyndrum to Inveraray route.

One of many explanations for this extra 19 minutes could be that he took this route

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

Instead of this route

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/56...e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

Therefore making the 9.4 mile stretch of A85 between the A85/B8074 junction and the A85/A82 junction the likely disposal site and this 9.4 mile stretch of road has exactly the same soil types surrounding it as the Rest and be Thankful area has.

Possibly here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.42...7i13312!8i6656

or here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.44...7i13312!8i6656

or even here if he attempted to drive around the gate to the left

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.44...7i13312!8i6656

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Old 1st October 2018, 08:00 AM   #510
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09.00 Tuesday 4th May 2010 - Time of death

13.30 Wednesday 5th May 2010 - Earliest time of disposal

Time elapsed 28.5 hours

Rigor would have begun and he could have used a large suitcase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

"At the time of death, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs. Following this, the muscles stiffen in rigor mortis. All muscles in the body are affected. Starting between two and six hours following death, rigor mortis begins with the eyelids, neck, and jaw."

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Old 1st October 2018, 09:08 AM   #511
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I'm thinking about transferring the body from the recess to his car boot, if rigor had already set in. Not many people would have the foresight to arrange the body in a position where it would fit into a car boot once it was fixed in that position. It's hard to break fully developed rigor, but if it was in the early stages it would be easier to do.

It would have had to be a hell of a big suitcase to get Suzanne Pilley into it. From the photos, although she's not overweight or anything, she doesn't look petite.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:23 AM   #512
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Hi, NightOfTheDemon.

I've finished the paper I was writing about this. I showed it to a friend who is a retired professor of Scots Law, and he said, send that to Operation Mica. So I did that. We'll see if they respond.

I've put it on my server temporarily so anyone in this thread can download it if they want. It's at www.vetpath.co.uk/jref/gilroy.pdf I don't want to leave it up too long in case search engines start to index it, so let me know when you've done the download and I'll delete it.
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Old 5th October 2018, 11:06 AM   #513
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Fascinating thread, thanks to serious work that may lead to a solution.
Not everyone is innocent, people on these threads are typically accused of suggesting everyone is. Families need and deserve truth.

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Old 5th October 2018, 12:46 PM   #514
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This guy is as guilty as sin. It's an interesting case because all the evidence is circumstantial. However there is so much circumstantial evidence pointing to Gilroy and absolutely none pointing to anyone else. And the fact remains that something happened to cause Suzanne Pilley to disappear off the face of the earth within a period of about ten minutes in the middle of the city. The only possible candidate for that something is David Gilroy.
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Old 5th October 2018, 02:27 PM   #515
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Downloaded, Thanks.

I agree that the obvious areas to search are north and west of Tyndrum.

The Rest and Be Thankful areas have been searched thoroughly but the other possible disposal sites (with the correct soils) have been given a cursory glance and that seems like half a search.

Another thought.

If Gilroy was trying to divert attention away from the Rest and Be Thankful there was an easier way, a much less time consuming way.

After he passed Inveraray at 18.59 Gilroy could have switched his phone on when he got to the junction of the A819 and A85 to divert attention away from the Rest and Be Thankful.

This route takes 21 minutes and if he went straight from Inveraray to the junction of the A819 and A85 the time would be 19.20.

By switching his phone on at the junction of the A819 and A85 at 19.20 it would have diverted attention away from the Rest and Be Thankful (a much easier diversionary tactic than switching his phone on at Ardlui) but he did not switch his phone on at 19.20 and the possible reasons for this are either.

A - he was not at the junction of the A819 and A85 at 19.20 and was actually south of this junction.

B - he was at the junction of the A819 and A85 at 19.20 but he did not want to keep his phone on as he drove east, west or north from the junction of the A819 and A85.

A means he could have went to the Rest and Be Thankful area and disposed of the body.

B means he was up to something on the A85 and surrounding roads and did not want his phone to be tracked whilst he disposed of the body.

The police have all but ruled out A after spending lots of time and money searching south of the junction of the A819 and A85 where the correct soils are found (A83 included) so it is time to search east and west (and possibly north) of the junction of the A819 and A85.

Hopefully your paper will make this happen.

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Old 5th October 2018, 02:35 PM   #516
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I've just uploaded a new version with a better edit on page 13. The sense doesn't change but it's easier to follow. You may want to replace.
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Old 5th October 2018, 03:34 PM   #517
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I don't believe he was driving round aimlessly. I'm sure he had a plan and quite a clever one too. I think there are three basic possibilities.

1. He disposed of Suzanne's body during the night somewhere in or quite near Edinburgh. He was concerned that he or his car might have been picked up on a CCTV camera without him knowing about it so he set off into Argyll the next day to behave in a deliberately suspicious manner so as to draw the search away from Edinburgh and the Lothians. His plan being, obviously, to tie up the police effort scrutinising CCTV records much further to the west and prevent them from realising they should be looking at night-time records closer to home. If he'd just pitched up to work on the Wednesday behaving normally it might not have taken the police very long to start requisitioning footage from nearby for the previous night.

2. He decided to dispose of the body somewhere on the southern route but to try to hoodwink the police into thinking he'd driven the northern route.

3. He decided to dispose of the body somewhere on the northern route but to try to hoodwink the police into thinking he'd driven the southern route.

If the correct answer is 1, we're all screwed until Gilroy decides he'd rather be out of jail than continue his protestations of innocence. (Which could be any time from March 2021, so this thread could see it.) CCTV footage from early May 2010 will be long gone.

I rather suspect though that if he wasn't actually hiding the body on the Wednesday he wouldn't have borked the suspension on his car (unless he did that during the previous night I suppose, but it seems unlikely he'd have got the right sort of soil on the car - there are some peaty podzols in the Pentlands and the Moorfoots, but I'll bet the overall composition varies a lot more between Highland and Lowland material). I also don't think he would have bothered doing the Ardlui detour. But I could be misreading that and this possibility remains open.

The problem with 2 is that Gilroy left the wrong mobile phone trail. He did in fact drive the northern route, so if he wanted the police to think he drove the northern route it would have been quite simple to drop the odd hint. The easy way on the outward journey would have been to leave his phone on until he was running into Callander. If he did what the cops thought he did then that would have been the sensible move.

As regards the Inveraray end he wouldn't have had time on the outward journey to do any more than what he actually did, switch the phone back on once he was through Inveraray and back on the common section of road. But on the way back he could have driven a few miles north on the A819 before switching off and sneaking back into the Rest and Be Thankful from the Inveraray end. Then once he'd finished in there, drive back to Inveraray and go north, but don't go anywhere near Ardlui. Keep going through Lochearnhead and switch the phone on again somewhere arond Callander.

That would actually have left a trail of mast connections that would have drawn the cops right away from the Rest and Be Thankful. If the Tyndrum camera hadn't been there, they wouldn't have had a clue where to look between about Loch Lubnaig and the Pass of Brander. Even as it was, they'd have been drawn to the Glen Orchy area and round Dalmally.

The thing is, that's all quite easy to work out and there's no reason he wouldn't have done it. He didn't do it, and not doing it seems to be a deliberate choice.

What he actually did is much more compatible with the third possibility. He drove the northern route but he didn't leave any phone trace there at all. The phone trace he did leave, other than on the two common sections, was on the southern route.

He could have gone a bit further along the A83 east of Inveraray, to the head of Loch Fyne, then switched off and turned back. But that could have been in the category of "too clever by half" and maybe taken up more time than he wanted, considering what he had in mind for the second half of the journey and that he still had to get back to the body with these black bags and so on. The stratagem on the A82 was actually brilliant. It's only spoiled by what looks like a premature switch-on.

I don't think there's any way the Ardlui detour is compatible with a Rest and Be Thankful disposal site. The whole thing is way too convoluted, with over two hours of unnecessary driving for bugger-all benefit. And (a) why double back to the Rest and Be Thankful road (the Tarbet junction) if you're trying to draw attention away from there, and (b) he's just left a body there, why the hell would he double back towards that spot, psychologically?

That detour makes perfect sense in the context of an A85 disposal site, apart from him switching on too early. It's a really weird thing to have done. He must have been pretty tired and very very stressed though, and by half past nine it would be getting quite dark. I seriously wonder if he lost track of where he was on Loch Lomondside, even if he might have mistaken Inveruglas for Tarbet. I mean, I know Tarbet is a big village with street lights and a road junction while Inveruglas is like a power station, three cottages and a caravan park, but in the half light when he was stressed, maybe? And then the phone pinging Ardlui rather than Inveruglas or Inversnaid, and him being north of the junction, was maybe a bit of luck for him because the cops already knew he'd come down from Crianlarich anyway and fudging the switch-on made his little ploy less transparent than it might have been?
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Last edited by Rolfe; 5th October 2018 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 5th October 2018, 03:44 PM   #518
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I also wonder about the timing of the return journey from Crianlarich. He only exceeded the AA time by three minutes. He took a call from the police and I'd have thought he'd have pulled over to take it. I wonder how long that lasted for.

But really, to get from Tyndrum to Tarbet in 16 minutes would mean driving significantly faster than we see him drive all day and I don't think he did that. If he was at Tarbet at 21:34 it also makes it even more unlikely that even a freak of the mountain landscape would have caused the phone to ping Ardlui.

I have to conclude he may have boo-booed. I can't see any other reason at all for the Ardlui detour other than him trying to hoodwink the cops into thinking he'd driven the eastern part of the A83 to get to Tarbet.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:14 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've just uploaded a new version with a better edit on page 13. The sense doesn't change but it's easier to follow. You may want to replace.

Excellent paper. One thing, though: I think there's a word missing ("route"?) at the top of page 6.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:18 PM   #520
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I'm not seeing where you mean.
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