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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 26th August 2019, 08:45 PM   #2201
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are confusing speculative opinion with evidence that comes from observing Trump's behavior and the top psychiatrists' assessments of that evidence.
The top psychiatrists...lol, ok.

Anyway, I’m not confusing anything. The press has to treat their opinion as speculation because that’s exactly what it is. It isn’t something that should be the subject of journalistic reporting.

Quote:
You are still digging your heels in that we can't possibly know Trump has pathologic NPD despite already overwhelming evidence that continues mounting every day.
if I’m digging my heels in for anything it’s that the opinions of psychiatrists who are ignoring ethics and standards are not facts; they are, at they very best, educated opinions. Even so, they are not opinions that should have been shared because of the well-trodden issues with ethics and standards.

I have no issue with saying that there’s something wrong with Trump. Quite obviously, there is something wrong with him. My issue is solely with the unethical behavior of the “professionals” involved. I am glad to see that the press is acting ethically here.

Quote:
It's ignorant for the news media to keep pussyfooting around the obvious.
It’s ethical, not ignorant, for the press to refrain from reporting someone’s opinion. Journalists are concerned with facts; pundits deal with opinions.
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Old 26th August 2019, 09:02 PM   #2202
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Who are the top psychiatrists and where do these Yale professors rank then?

I do believe you are the only one in the thread still dismissing the Yale paper.
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Old 26th August 2019, 09:40 PM   #2203
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Who are the top psychiatrists and where do these Yale professors rank then?
There's no such thing as "the top psychiatrists." You might be able to make a case that "Dr. X is a leading expert in Y condition," due to their contributions to the field -research, writing, etc. But being a Yale professor does not say anything about where a psychiatrist ranks. In the case of Dr. Lee, it's fair to say that she is a leading authority on prison violence given her work in the prison systems and her authorship of a textbook. I respect that expertise. That doesn't make her a "top psychiatrist," nor does it qualify her to make up her own standards when it comes to assessing people she's never met.

Quote:
I do believe you are the only one in the thread still dismissing the Yale paper.
Maybe in the thread, but who cares about that? In the real world, the "Yale paper" (what paper exactly, the conference? the book?) has been dismissed. It had no discernible effect. The public certainly took little notice of it. What people are taking notice of is his actual behavior. Why isn't that enough? Why do we need to drag medicine into the political realm?
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:03 PM   #2204
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
There's no such thing as "the top psychiatrists." You might be able to make a case that "Dr. X is a leading expert in Y condition," due to their contributions to the field -research, writing, etc. But being a Yale professor does not say anything about where a psychiatrist ranks. In the case of Dr. Lee, it's fair to say that she is a leading authority on prison violence given her work in the prison systems and her authorship of a textbook. I respect that expertise. That doesn't make her a "top psychiatrist," nor does it qualify her to make up her own standards when it comes to assessing people she's never met.
That's absurd. There are leading experts in any professional field.

Quote:
Maybe in the thread, but who cares about that? In the real world, the "Yale paper" (what paper exactly, the conference? the book?) has been dismissed. It had no discernible effect. The public certainly took little notice of it. What people are taking notice of is his actual behavior. Why isn't that enough? Why do we need to drag medicine into the political realm?
You have no evidence of this. If you can find any professionals other than Trump apologists who believe Trump is sane, post the links. We have that one 'expert' who thinks because Trump is rich he doesn't have NPD. Bet that psych is sorry he took that stand now, given how lonely a position it is.
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:31 PM   #2205
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Originally Posted by dann View Post
No format for it?!
You seem to be confused/upset by this. You do understand the difference between "the news" and editorials, right? Just in case, "the news" is supposed to report verifiable and corroborated facts, not speculation.

No, I'm not at all confused/upset by somebody making the point that it's difficult for the news to move from "Today Trump said ..." to "The POTUS is obviously ******* insane!"
You read an awful lot into my four words. Are you licensed to make your assumptions?
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Old 26th August 2019, 11:51 PM   #2206
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
...
You read an awful lot into my four words. Are you licensed to make your assumptions?
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Old 27th August 2019, 12:47 AM   #2207
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, I'm not at all confused/upset by somebody making the point that it's difficult for the news to move from "Today Trump said ..." to "The POTUS is obviously ******* insane!"

You read an awful lot into my four words. Are you licensed to make your assumptions?
A justified reading based on your use of the interrobang, which indicates excitement or surprise. You seemed to be surprised that they said there was “no format for it,” which might indicate confusion, incredulity, etc at the idea that journalists don’t have a good way to talk about the president’s mental health.

You expressed yourself badly if that was not your intent.
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Old 27th August 2019, 12:59 AM   #2208
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
A justified reading based on your use of the interrobang, which indicates excitement or surprise. You seemed to be surprised that they said there was “no format for it,” which might indicate confusion, incredulity, etc at the idea that journalists don’t have a good way to talk about the president’s mental health.

You expressed yourself badly if that was not your intent.
Uh huh, sure... uh that makes sense.
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:44 AM   #2209
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
There's no such thing as "the top psychiatrists."
Top. Men.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:18 AM   #2210
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's not mutually exclusive to what I said: he'll freak out.
Point taken.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Huh?
You quoted Trump' tweet:

Quote:
The question I was asked most today by fellow World Leaders, who think the USA is doing so well and is stronger than ever before, happens to be, “Mr. President, why does the American media hate your Country so much? Why are they rooting for it to fail?”
I think that kind of rhetoric could lead to violence as it further reinforces to his followers that their 'enemies' are dangerous and un-american.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:31 AM   #2211
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The top psychiatrists...lol, ok.
Top. Men.


ETA: Damn. Ninja'd by The Atheist.
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:45 AM   #2212
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Uh huh, sure... uh that makes sense.
WTF?!
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Old 27th August 2019, 10:34 AM   #2213
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Dr. Bandy Lee, leader of the "duty to warn" movement, and Dr. Allen Francis, who helped write the DSM, debate on CNN. Interestingly, while contending that shrinks shouldn't be diagnosing Trump, Dr. Francis says calling Trump "mentally ill" defames the mentally ill, and he compares Trump to Hitler, Stalin and Mao. He says Trump is dangerous because he's "evil," not mentally ill.

With friends like these.....

https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...h-blood-his-h/
https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2019/0...es-highlights/
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Old 27th August 2019, 10:46 AM   #2214
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I appreciate a scientist who can separate their moral opinions from their scientific opinions.
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Old 27th August 2019, 11:06 AM   #2215
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I appreciate a scientist who can separate their moral opinions from their scientific opinions.
Doesn't apply here, as Trump has demonstrated that he is evil - exhibit A his migration policies.
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Old 27th August 2019, 01:54 PM   #2216
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Dr. Bandy Lee, leader of the "duty to warn" movement, and Dr. Allen Francis, who helped write the DSM, debate on CNN. Interestingly, while contending that shrinks shouldn't be diagnosing Trump, Dr. Francis says calling Trump "mentally ill" defames the mentally ill, and he compares Trump to Hitler, Stalin and Mao. He says Trump is dangerous because he's "evil," not mentally ill.

With friends like these.....

https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...h-blood-his-h/
https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2019/0...es-highlights/
That's the way psychiatrists should talk about the President -as citizens and not as clinicians. I think Dr. Francis is a bit over the top here, for sure, but he isn't throwing around his authority as an expert and calling his opinions "professional."
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Old 27th August 2019, 01:58 PM   #2217
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If, as I suspect, Trump's behaviour continues to get increasingly bizarre, what would convince you that either he needs a full medical assessment of his fitness?
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Old 27th August 2019, 01:58 PM   #2218
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Doesn't apply here, as Trump has demonstrated that he is evil - exhibit A his migration policies.
Exactly! Maybe someone finally gets it?!

"Evil" is not a medical diagnosis. You, me, psychiatrists . . . we can call his policies evil because we are speaking as citizens.

Doctors are speaking as professionals and should follow ethical guidelines and practice standards before they issue a professional opinion.

Why is this controversial?
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:08 PM   #2219
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Dr. Bandy Lee, leader of the "duty to warn" movement, and Dr. Allen Francis, who helped write the DSM, debate on CNN. Interestingly, while contending that shrinks shouldn't be diagnosing Trump, Dr. Francis says calling Trump "mentally ill" defames the mentally ill, and he compares Trump to Hitler, Stalin and Mao. He says Trump is dangerous because he's "evil," not mentally ill.

With friends like these.....

https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...h-blood-his-h/
https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2019/0...es-highlights/
I see Dr Frances has dug in his heels. I suppose given his first reaction that's the only way he can save face..
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:11 PM   #2220
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Doesn't apply here, as Trump has demonstrated that he is evil - exhibit A his migration policies.
Dr Frances claims evil and mental illness are mutually exclusive. That is not a supportable position.

I wonder how he would categorize Jeffrey Dahmer?
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:14 PM   #2221
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That's the way psychiatrists should talk about the President -as citizens and not as clinicians. I think Dr. Francis is a bit over the top here, for sure, but he isn't throwing around his authority as an expert and calling his opinions "professional."
I don't recall you've supported your credentials to make this claim. I don't suppose you see the irony?
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:17 PM   #2222
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Exactly! Maybe someone finally gets it?!

"Evil" is not a medical diagnosis.
Did anyone in this thread say it was?
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:39 PM   #2223
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Top. Men.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Top. Men.


ETA: Damn. Ninja'd by The Atheist.
No, ninja'ing only applies to things that aren't entirely gibberish. You can't be ninja'd by being the second one to say the same gibberish.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
"Evil" is not a medical diagnosis.
Nor is anything Bandy Lee has said.
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:44 PM   #2224
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
No, ninja'ing only applies to things that aren't entirely gibberish. You can't be ninja'd by being the second one to say the same gibberish.
Perfectly cromulent references don't become gibberish simply because you don't get them.

Quote:

Nor is anything Bandy Lee has said.
What would you say is the significance of of Dr Lee's opinion?
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:44 PM   #2225
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If, as I suspect, Trump's behaviour continues to get increasingly bizarre, what would convince you that either he needs a full medical assessment of his fitness?
If he exhibited truly bizarre behaviors, I wouldn't even care about a medical assessment as far as him serving in office; I think the VP should invoke the 25th. But as to what that bizarre behavior would look like . . . I'd know it when I see it. It's not stuff like, "couldn't we nuke hurricanes?" That's certainly stupid, but we can't make stupidity disqualifying.
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:48 PM   #2226
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
No, ninja'ing only applies to things that aren't entirely gibberish. You can't be ninja'd by being the second one to say the same gibberish.
Perfectly cromulent references don't become gibberish simply because you don't get them.

*ninja'd by theprestige

Quote:
Nor is anything Bandy Lee has said.
You obviously haven't heard what she and her colleagues have said . . . it's right there in the OP and littered throughout the thread.
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:51 PM   #2227
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Dr Frances claims evil and mental illness are mutually exclusive. That is not a supportable position.

I wonder how he would categorize Jeffrey Dahmer?

I don't think Doc Francis is actually saying Trump is not mentally ill. I think he's saying he doesn't know and doesn't care. In the interview he decries Trump's impact on America and the world, and contends that debating his mental status is a distraction.

The other side, of course, is that if Trump is doing crazy stuff as a political strategy, he might be reasoned with or restrained by appeals to his self-interest ("your tariffs are making the red-state farmers mad at you"). If he really is crazy, in the sense of rejecting reality and living in his own fantasies, ordinary legal and political tools are ineffective. And the evidence keeps piling up that it's the latter.

Related news: At the G7, Trump spent much of his time trying to advance Putin's interests.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...tin/ar-AAGptWV

If Putin owns Trump, it doesn't really matter much whether he's crazy.

And the Federal Election Commission, the watchdog over the 2020 elections, is now non-functional.
https://publicintegrity.org/federal-...ely-shut-down/
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:03 PM   #2228
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
.....
You obviously haven't heard what she and her colleagues have said . . . it's right there in the OP and littered throughout the thread.
Her core point is that Trump is dangerous based on his observed speech and behavior, which correspond to recognized psychiatric disorders, and that mental health professionals have an obligation to say so. She has never claimed to have "diagnosed" Trump in the doctor/patient sense.
https://www.salon.com/2019/06/14/yal...bal-emergency/
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:10 PM   #2229
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Dr Frances claims evil and mental illness are mutually exclusive. That is not a supportable position.

I wonder how he would categorize Jeffrey Dahmer?
You put it better than me.

Upthread, I took issue with the current definition of mental illness needing to cause distress or harm to the person with it. By that reckoning, Nero was fine, until he suddenly was deposed.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:24 PM   #2230
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't recall you've supported your credentials to make this claim. I don't suppose you see the irony?
The idea that one needs professional credentials in order to have a non-professional opinion is . . . interesting. Sounds like when men are told, "If you aren't a woman, you can't have an opinion about abortion."
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:39 PM   #2231
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If he exhibited truly bizarre behaviors, I wouldn't even care about a medical assessment as far as him serving in office; I think the VP should invoke the 25th. But as to what that bizarre behavior would look like . . . I'd know it when I see it. It's not stuff like, "couldn't we nuke hurricanes?" That's certainly stupid, but we can't make stupidity disqualifying.
Did anyone say stupidity was a mental illness?

Did we use bizarre behavior as the sole evidence for Trump's NPD?

No and no.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:43 PM   #2232
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Her core point is that Trump is dangerous based on his observed speech and behavior, which correspond to recognized psychiatric disorders,
That is a diagnosis. Her and her colleagues have been specific about which conditions.
Quote:
and that mental health professionals have an obligation to say so. She has never claimed to have "diagnosed" Trump in the doctor/patient sense.
https://www.salon.com/2019/06/14/yal...bal-emergency/
"...never claimed to have "diagnosed" Trump?!

When a mental health professional issues a professional opinion that some one is mentally unfit they are diagnosing them. She said it many times in that piece:
Quote:
It's a form of co-dependence. It is a mutual phenomenon where you have a person who is mentally disordered. Trump would have remained psychologically disordered as an individual,
Quote:
Disease by definition is destructive. What we are witnessing with Donald Trump's presidency are all signs of destruction.
Quote:
The ability to distinguish what is real from what is unreal is very important. With mental pathology, the afflicted person starts to see delusions and hallucinations as real. This mentally unwell person will actually do whatever they can to bulldoze over reality as it actually exists and the people who believe in it. This is why a sick, delusional person will force family members and those around them to abandon their own sense of reality and espouse the [hilite]sick person's delusions and conspiracy theories.
Quote:
A mentally unwell person like Donald Trump can no longer see reality for what it is.
Quote:
The president failed to meet all four criteria that we outlined as the standard, most basic criteria for mental capacity.
You really want to stick with the story that she isn't diagnosing Trump?
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:49 PM   #2233
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did anyone say stupidity was a mental illness?
Many posters have pointed to stupid things he says as evidence of mental illness. So, yes.

Quote:
Did we use bizarre behavior as the sole evidence for Trump's NPD?
Yes. You've never met Trump and clinically evaluated him. You have nothing else to go on but your own observations and interpretations of Trump's behavior. You said it yourself long ago in this thread: NPD is diagnosed on behavior. Are you retracting that now?

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No and no.
No and no?!
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:00 PM   #2234
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump's also claiming yet again that Russia got kicked out of the G8 because of Obama. No, Russia got kicked out by all the other G7 members because Putin annexed Ukraine.

May be splitting hairs here. As the US decides for Russia in the G8, so the smaller countries will follow.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:01 PM   #2235
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originally Posted by xjx388
Exactly! Maybe someone finally gets it?!

"Evil" is not a medical diagnosis.
Did anyone in this thread say it was?
Uh . . . you kind of did here:
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Dr Frances claims evil and mental illness are mutually exclusive. That is not a supportable position.
Which would imply that evil and mental illness are not mutually exclusive -a position which I think is extremely unfair. People who are mentally ill don't have much, if any, control over their thoughts and behaviors. It's like calling someone with ADHD, "lazy." Or someone with MR, "stupid." This is exactly the problem with equating mental illness with "bad."
Quote:
I wonder how he would categorize Jeffrey Dahmer?
I'd wager that he'd pick one. If Dahmer had diagnosed mental illness, then he's mentally ill. If he didn't, then he's evil.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:03 PM   #2236
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't think Doc Francis is actually saying Trump is not mentally ill. I think he's saying he doesn't know and doesn't care. In the interview he decries Trump's impact on America and the world, and contends that debating his mental status is a distraction.
I read his earlier stuff and I'm not interested in the video. If someone finds a cache of professionals who support his view, I would look at that. But so far this guy, expert or not, is an outlier.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The other side, of course, is that if Trump is doing crazy stuff as a political strategy, he might be reasoned with or restrained by appeals to his self-interest ("your tariffs are making the red-state farmers mad at you"). If he really is crazy, in the sense of rejecting reality and living in his own fantasies, ordinary legal and political tools are ineffective. And the evidence keeps piling up that it's the latter.
The evidence is overwhelming this is not the case. It's absurd to keep insisting it might be a calculated act.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:59 PM   #2237
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
....
The evidence is overwhelming this is not the case. It's absurd to keep insisting it might be a calculated act.
I certainly have not "insisted" on such a thing. But I am wishing, hoping, yearning for it. The alternative is so much worse.
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Old 27th August 2019, 08:04 PM   #2238
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I certainly have not "insisted" on such a thing. But I am wishing, hoping, yearning for it. The alternative is so much worse.
You are yearning for him to be a worse con than he is instead of an out of control narcissist?

I don't think either one is a safe option.
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Old 27th August 2019, 08:05 PM   #2239
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
.....
When a mental health professional issues a professional opinion that some one is mentally unfit they are diagnosing them. She said it many times in that piece:
You really want to stick with the story that she isn't diagnosing Trump?

She herself says so. Trump is not her patient. She is not treating him. Her obligation is to the community and the society.

Quote:
To make a diagnosis one needs all the relevant information – including, I believe, a personal interview. But to assess dangerousness, one only needs enough information to raise alarms. It is about the situation rather than the person. The same person may not be a danger in a different situation, while a diagnosis stays with the person.

It is Trump in the office of the presidency that poses a danger. Why? Past violence is the best predictor of future violence, and he has shown: verbal aggressiveness, boasting about sexual assaults, inciting violence in others, an attraction to violence and powerful weapons and the continual taunting of a hostile nation with nuclear power. Specific traits that are highly associated with violence include: impulsivity, recklessness, paranoia, a loose grip on reality with a poor understanding of consequences, rage reactions, a lack of empathy, belligerence towards others and a constant need to demonstrate power.

There is another pattern by which he is dangerous. His cognitive function, or his ability to process knowledge and thoughts, has begun to be widely questioned. Many have noted a distinct decline in his outward ability to form complete sentences, to stay with a thought, to use complex words and not to make loose associations. This is dangerous because of the critical importance of decision-making capacity in the office that he holds. Cognitive decline can result from any number of causes – psychiatric, neurological, medical, or medication-induced – and therefore needs to be investigated. Likewise, we do not know whether psychiatric symptoms are due to a mental disorder, medication, or a physical condition, which only a thorough examination can reveal.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...s-psychiatrist

Last edited by Bob001; 27th August 2019 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 27th August 2019, 08:07 PM   #2240
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are yearning for him to be a worse con than he is instead of an out of control narcissist?

I don't think either one is a safe option.
A con artist wants to get rich. I would at least trust him not to blow up the world.
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