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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 11th October 2019, 12:11 PM   #1321
kellyb
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm squeamish about Biden too. It's a dilemma.
There's always Bernie!

He does not have anything like that particular problem, for sure.
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Old 11th October 2019, 12:13 PM   #1322
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I mentioned in another thread that Trump's recent demand that everyone apologize to him for the impeachment inquiry reminded me of the final episode of "Preacher", in which God was shown to be an insecure, needy whiner who wanted everyone to tell Him that they love Him, regardless of what He had done to them.
It's like this video. Watch it, its hilarious.

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Old 11th October 2019, 01:00 PM   #1323
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Dems need to nominate the candidate best able to take down Trump. Everything else is way down on the list.
I am not a big Biden fan but some of the comments here are realty cheap shots.
And indictive of the "we don't need no stinking moderates" attitude that, if it carries over into November 2020 will reelect Trump.
Warren seems a good candidate to get behind if that's your worry. As kellyb mentioned, moderates and a bulk of progressives alike can rally behind her.

But I'm still hoping Sanders can get it together and take the lead because he'd defeat Donald Trump.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:02 PM   #1324
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Warren seems a good candidate to get behind if that's your worry. As kellyb mentioned, moderates and a bulk of progressives alike can rally behind her.

But I'm still hoping Sanders can get it together and take the lead because he'd defeat Donald Trump.
I worry a little that the media bias against Bernie would screw him out of getting elected in the general. It would depress the democratic vote.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:18 PM   #1325
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Warren seems a good candidate to get behind if that's your worry. As kellyb mentioned, moderates and a bulk of progressives alike can rally behind her.

But I'm still hoping Sanders can get it together and take the lead because he'd defeat Donald Trump.

I see that Sander's health is now a real issue seems to have eluded you.
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:23 PM   #1326
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Biden’s son isn’t running for office. Why the hell does this matter?
Do you see evidence Biden is not pro-fossil fuels? Because his family connection
is the tip of an iceberg.

He has voted to continue fracking.

Vox: What’s Joe Biden going to do on climate change? Look at his record under Obama.
Biden introduced the first Senate bill on climate change. Here’s what he’s done since.
Quote:
As Reuters reported earlier this month, Biden is expected to seek a “middle ground” with a proposal to “appeal to both environmentalists and the blue-collar voters who elected Donald Trump.”

That means he is unlikely to back the Green New Deal, a sweeping resolution and set of principles for decarbonizing the US economy introduced in February that has earned the endorsement of some of his competitors, including Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Pete Buttigieg....

...But the climate crisis is undoubtedly the toughest environmental challenge yet. And critics say Biden’s pursuit of a compromise as a presidential candidate conflicts with policy that would truly address the problem. ...

Ahead of the United Nations meeting to finalize the Paris climate agreement in 2015, Biden gave several speeches highlighting US progress in fighting climate change and calling for more aggressive action.

But during the same time, the Obama administration did little to thwart the growth of fossil fuels in the United States. Obama presided over the largest expansion of natural gas production in US history, lifted the 40-year-old crude oil export ban, licensed liquefied natural gas export terminals, and openly boasted about low gas prices. He even criticized Mitt Romney in 2012 for saying that a coal plant kills people.
IOW, he's telling the public one thing while accepting big oil money.

I have never agreed the Democrats are little different from the GOP. But Biden is nothing but the same old inaction when it comes to the impending climate disaster because he is entrenched in the oil business-as-usual.

This is the bottom line: CNBC: Joe Biden allies expect natural gas company founder to remain co-host of fundraiser despite climate outcry
Quote:
Joe Biden’s associates still expect Andrew Goldman, who co-founded a natural gas company, to serve as co-host for a fundraiser for the Democratic presidential candidate Thursday evening, despite Biden’s pledge to refuse money from fossil-fuel executives.
Maybe he doesn't get it that natural gas is a fossil fuel. Perhaps he's unaware of the methane released into the atmosphere with natural gas extraction.

Biden denied knowing that said fundraiser was an executive in the oil & gas industry.

Quote:
Throughout the Wednesday town hall, Biden was ripped on social media by a host of climate change activists and progressive critics. Naomi Klein, author of “On Fire: The (Burning) Case for a Green New Deal,” claimed that Biden’s opposition to banning fracking is related to his connection with Goldman, who was once a senior advisor to Biden during his U.S. Senate days.
The guy worked for Biden yet Biden claims to not know:
Quote:
Goldman is listed as a co-founder of Western LNG on the company’s website, alongside entries for the firm’s CEO and senior vice president.
It's the same old crap, pretend you are a people's candidate, when really you are a big business candidate because that's where the money comes from.
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:29 PM   #1327
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Dems need to nominate the candidate best able to take down Trump. Everything else is way down on the list.
I am not a big Biden fan but some of the comments here are realty cheap shots.
And indictive of the "we don't need no stinking moderates" attitude that, if it carries over into November 2020 will reelect Trump.
Yes but several of them have a good chance of beating Trump. We should not be fear-mongered into voting for Biden.

Especially given Biden has a lot of vulnerabilities and I'm not talking about this fake corruption claim.
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:27 PM   #1328
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes but several of them have a good chance of beating Trump. We should not be fear-mongered into voting for Biden.

Especially given Biden has a lot of vulnerabilities and I'm not talking about this fake corruption claim.
Yep.

All three frontrunners are currently doing about as well (+10 points over) against Trump right now.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ident-general/
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Old 11th October 2019, 05:31 PM   #1329
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Elizabeth Warren calls out Zuckerberg over new Facebook ad policies after his meeting with Trump

I'm mildly surprised that I haven't seen more of the Democratic candidates hammer at this.
So what’s going to be the Democratic strategy
for countering Facebook’s avowed willingness to run fake ads? I’d rather know they were working out a plan than just listening to them complain. There’s got to be a party-wide strategy to counter all the fake crap that Zuckerberg is willing to tolerate. They could always just tell their own lies about Trump. I’m not sure they *should* do that but they ought to be looking at some options.

And I don’t think vowing to split up tech giants is something they should be running on to begin with. Taking a hard look at monopolistic behavior, yes, but not splitting big companies just because they’re big. Maybe some companies deserve that but I think it’s silly to make a bunch of powerful enemies at this point.

They need to be finding out how social media can help them, not taking aim at platforms.
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Old 11th October 2019, 05:58 PM   #1330
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
They need to be finding out how social media can help them, not taking aim at platforms.
No. This is the chance for American opposition to Trump to grab the opportunity and ensure this kind of crud doesn't happen again. Get someone who will actually make some changes.

Shift left.

(Go the Cougar!)

And wouldn't Trump being demolished by a woman be the ultimate prize? Like those ISIS filth who didn't like being shot by women.
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Old 11th October 2019, 06:50 PM   #1331
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lol

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Old 11th October 2019, 06:56 PM   #1332
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
So what’s going to be the Democratic strategy
for countering Facebook’s avowed willingness to run fake ads?
The final strategy can't be figured out till we get closer to the general election, I think. Different candidates would do better with totally different strategies, and what happens with the Trump impeachment will have to figure in, too.

It wouldn't be smart to decide on a strategy now, so far out from the eventual "landscape" you'll be traversing, IMO.
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Old 11th October 2019, 07:55 PM   #1333
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
lol

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32 seconds of funny in case anyone passes it by because there isn't a description.

This is more evidence that Warren will make a great candidate.
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:01 PM   #1334
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
32 seconds of funny in case anyone passes it by because there isn't a description.

This is more evidence that Warren will make a great candidate.
She is getting better and better. People really respond to a quick wit.
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:06 PM   #1335
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
She is getting better and better. People really respond to a quick wit.
Much better than Biden saying Trump is afraid of him.

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Old 11th October 2019, 08:32 PM   #1336
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
So what’s going to be the Democratic strategy
for countering Facebook’s avowed willingness to run fake ads?
Nevermind what I said before, Team Warren was on this like white on rice!


https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/polit...-ad/index.html

Quote:
A fresh series of Facebook ads this week by Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren seeks to put the social media giant on the defensive — by telling a lie.

The ads, which began running widely on Thursday, start with a bold but obvious falsehood: That Facebook and its CEO Mark Zuckerberg have endorsed President Trump's reelection campaign.
"You're probably shocked," reads the ad, which has already reached tens of thousands of viewers nationwide. "And you might be thinking, 'how could this possibly be true?' Well, it's not."
The ad's own admission of a lie seeks to draw attention to a controversial Facebook policy Warren has spent days criticizing. Under the policy, Facebook exempts ads by politicians from third-party fact-checking — a loophole, Warren says, that allows Zuckerberg to continue taking "gobs of money" from Trump's campaign despite Trump's ads telling untruths about former Vice President Joe Biden and his son.
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:32 PM   #1337
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Much better than Biden saying Trump is afraid of him.

As I said, she's getting better. I like Biden and thought he was the "safe" bet. Maybe too safe. Warren has been my favorite candidate from a policy perspective. But shes been driving me crazy by doing politically stupid things like getting a DNA test to prove her ancestry. You don't respond to ridiculous trivia nonsense the GOP tosses at you. That only gives those things legs. What you do when they do that is laugh at them. You deride them humorously. Move on by saying anyone who wants to talk about that stuff when there are real problems are just trying to divert people's attention.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:06 PM   #1338
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The final strategy can't be figured out till we get closer to the general election, I think. Different candidates would do better with totally different strategies, and what happens with the Trump impeachment will have to figure in, too.

It wouldn't be smart to decide on a strategy now, so far out from the eventual "landscape" you'll be traversing, IMO.
I just wonder if they could be doing some generic brand-building to counter all the vicious crap that's going to come their way. Simple, positive messages about what Democrats have accomplished and what they hope to accomplish.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:11 PM   #1339
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Nevermind what I said before, Team Warren was on this like white on rice!


https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/polit...-ad/index.html
Oh, wow. She's pretty quick on her feet.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:29 PM   #1340
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https://www.instagram.com/tv/B3cJ_8E..._web_copy_link

Bernie Sanders video last night.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:45 PM   #1341
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I mostly agree -- "any sort" is a bit much if indeed she lied
Depending on the reason for, nature of, and effects of a particular lie, "any sort" can be entirely appropriate. There's reason for why "No, those pants don't make your butt look big" is generally not considered condemnation-worthy, to poke at a standard example.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
-- but here's where I have a problem as a voter who wants to see Trump defeated above all other priorities:

The way things are trending, there's a fair chance that Warren will be the nominee. I worry that she has a tendency to play loose with the facts about her personal bio, and more importantly, that's a sign of internal fragility that could manifest in the general. I want a candidate who conveys supreme confidence.
I think that she expresses quite a bit of confidence, honestly - and that I would trust her less if she conveyed "supreme confidence," especially in times like these. Hope is not lost yet, but the challenges and foes that we face are, quite frankly, somewhat incredible. Going further with that thought, the Democrats in Congress, while wildly better than the Republicans, are generally very, very far from sainthood.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden denied knowing that said fundraiser was an executive in the oil & gas industry.

The guy worked for Biden yet Biden claims to not know:

It's the same old crap, pretend you are a people's candidate, when really you are a big business candidate because that's where the money comes from.
This kind of thing is why Biden's pointedly on the bottom of my list of preferred major candidates. I fully admit that I'm deeply unhappy with the frequently overtly evil and immoral choices of the oil and gas industry leaders, though, and the very, very disproportionate political influence that they wield.

Also, as for the candidate who's best versus Trump... Again, Warren and Biden seem to currently be tied with a 10 point national lead on Trump, with Bernie coming in an oh so distant 3rd with his 9 point national lead. Even if one does think that beating Trump is the number one priority, that really doesn't point to a specific candidate at present. Going further, Biden has a much more problematic history than Warren, by the look of it, meaning a lot more avenues to attack him with.
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:11 PM   #1342
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Whatever tendency she has there seems really minor to me compared to Biden, tho:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...013_story.html
Or, more to the point if she is the nominee, Warren's weak "adjustment" to her bio looks like a grain of sand compared to Dump's Everest of Lies.
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:15 PM   #1343
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Or, more to the point if she is the nominee, Warren's weak "adjustment" to her bio looks like a grain of sand compared to Dump's Everest of Lies.


I don't understand your post.
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:23 PM   #1344
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
32 seconds of funny in case anyone passes it by because there isn't a description.

This is more evidence that Warren will make a great candidate.
It's also an excellent example of how I think Warren would wipe the floor with Dump in a one-on-one debate with him.
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:38 PM   #1345
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


I don't understand your post.
Warren really did say at one point in the more distant past she "decided not to go back" to work as a special ed teacher after getting pregnant. She didn't bring up the "forced" aspect of her leaving until recently.

It's a really minor issue, though, and really just proves how desperate her haters are (and have to be, if they would prefer to not attack her on policy.)
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:43 PM   #1346
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
It's also an excellent example of how I think Warren would wipe the floor with Dump in a one-on-one debate with him.
I'd guess she'll bring in Hillary's coaches, too, who ran though practice debates with different versions of Trump, since there are several of "them" "out there" in the guy.

Hillary really was masterful in the debates with Trump. Liz will be, too.
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Old 12th October 2019, 04:46 AM   #1347
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Depending on the reason for, nature of, and effects of a particular lie, "any sort" can be entirely appropriate. There's reason for why "No, those pants don't make your butt look big" is generally not considered condemnation-worthy, to poke at a standard example.
If she lied, trivial though it may be, it's not as trivial as your example. I'm pointing this out because these instances of minimization suggest to me that you cut Warren undue slack because she's your preferred candidate.
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Old 12th October 2019, 07:11 AM   #1348
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Might there be a reason why a woman might not want to bring that particular aspect of the issue up in every retelling? If the mention of leaving the job was a preface to some point they were getting to, bringing it up could then make the whole discussion about that or start an argument.
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Old 12th October 2019, 11:30 AM   #1349
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
If she lied, trivial though it may be, it's not as trivial as your example.
That was simply a standard example of the disputed concept - that lies don't necessarily deserve condemnation of any sort, to be clear, given that what I said was that *most* of the actually believable reasons for there to have been lying in this case deserve no condemnation of any sort and you took issue with that. Also, to be clear, I think that "trivial" goes in a completely different direction from the point I was making. If a person was beaten up for something and tells someone who was showing concern that they're fine so that the person won't worry when they're obviously not fine, if they say that they fell down the stairs to try to prevent further harm occurring, whether to themselves, those who beat them up, and/or to people who might get themselves hurt because they try to retaliate... those are lies, too, and not at all condemnation-worthy.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm pointing this out because these instances of minimization suggest to me that you cut Warren undue slack because she's your preferred candidate.
Understandable, if you are only working with an extremely limited data set and have become rather used to obvious bias influencing opinions. With that said, I don't think that I'm cutting her undue slack here in the first place (though of course I wouldn't). I don't even think that I'm giving her unequal slack, for that matter, before getting to the question of whether I'd be giving her some because she is my preferred candidate. I tend to be hard on quite a lot of GOP lying, for example, because so much of it is vicious, deeply harmful, and employed for nefarious purpose, in short, not because it's GOP lying. Even when it comes to Trump, I have no problem giving him a pass for some of his individual lies while condemning many others, much as a conversation about Trump's lying will generally have more aspects than that.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Might there be a reason why a woman might not want to bring that particular aspect of the issue up in every retelling? If the mention of leaving the job was a preface to some point they were getting to, bringing it up could then make the whole discussion about that or start an argument.
That is one of the most likely scenarios, after all.
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Old 12th October 2019, 12:56 PM   #1350
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Warren really did say at one point in the more distant past she "decided not to go back" to work as a special ed teacher after getting pregnant. She didn't bring up the "forced" aspect of her leaving until recently.

It's a really minor issue, though, and really just proves how desperate her haters are (and have to be, if they would prefer to not attack her on policy.)
It's nitpicking about this kind of crap that drives me crazy.

A politician or virtually any job applicant is going to gloss over something like this. This woman has been very successful and this is what people choose to focus on? What I see in Warren is someone who as best as I can tell is honest. That her description of something that happened 30 years ago was " I decided not to go back" as opposed to "I was forced out" doesn't make her untrustworthy. What kind of standard do you really expect?
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Old 12th October 2019, 01:13 PM   #1351
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Might there be a reason why a woman might not want to bring that particular aspect of the issue up in every retelling? If the mention of leaving the job was a preface to some point they were getting to, bringing it up could then make the whole discussion about that or start an argument.
Oh, totally. It's really awkward stuff.
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:08 PM   #1352
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's nitpicking about this kind of crap that drives me crazy.

A politician or virtually any job applicant is going to gloss over something like this. This woman has been very successful and this is what people choose to focus on? What I see in Warren is someone who as best as I can tell is honest. That her description of something that happened 30 years ago was " I decided not to go back" as opposed to "I was forced out" doesn't make her untrustworthy. What kind of standard do you really expect?

The thing that bothers me about it is that I can't say I've been completely honest in my life about the details of embarrassing events, and I dearly love and completely trust people who have done worse, people being people and all, but it would be a nice excuse if I just didn't like Warren or mistrusted her in the first place. However, if that is really considered a disqualifying instance of behavior for a candidate, with the level of scrutiny that's given them these days, it's going to be really tough to field anybody who is also capable of doing a good job. In my estimation, Warren is fully capable of doing a good job and would restore a level of integrity and trustworthiness that would at the least go a long way toward making American normal again.
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:42 PM   #1353
Aridas
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
The thing that bothers me about it is that I can't say I've been completely honest in my life about the details of embarrassing events, and I dearly love and completely trust people who have done worse, people being people and all, but it would be a nice excuse if I just didn't like Warren or mistrusted her in the first place. However, if that is really considered a disqualifying instance of behavior for a candidate, with the level of scrutiny that's given them these days, it's going to be really tough to field anybody who is also capable of doing a good job. In my estimation, Warren is fully capable of doing a good job and would restore a level of integrity and trustworthiness that would at the least go a long way toward making American normal again.
FTFY.
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Old 12th October 2019, 09:01 PM   #1354
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's nitpicking about this kind of crap that drives me crazy.
Hear! Hear!

Let's suppose for the sake of the discussion that she did lie about how she left some 30 odd years ago.

And?

Her opponent in the presidential race will have lied about something quite significant about 5 minutes ago. Or two sentences ago. In this light we're supposed to focus on a trivial matter 30 years ago? Really?

It's maddening.
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Old 12th October 2019, 09:26 PM   #1355
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Hear! Hear!

Let's suppose for the sake of the discussion that she did lie about how she left some 30 odd years ago.

And?

Her opponent in the presidential race will have lied about something quite significant about 5 minutes ago. Or two sentences ago. In this light we're supposed to focus on a trivial matter 30 years ago? Really?

It's maddening.
Its mind boggling that a discussion somehow gets mired in this kind of trivia. There were almost a dozen accusations of sexual assault against Trump, Rampant fraud in his charity, non-stop lying, multiple bankruptcies and yet the media couldn't stop talking about Hillary's emails. Here we are now talking about a job that Warren had 30 years ago where her bosses may not have wanted her?

Big deal. She didn't cheat thousands of students or countless busboys and contracters so I'm good.
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Old 12th October 2019, 09:51 PM   #1356
Aridas
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Big deal. She didn't cheat thousands of students or countless busboys and contracters so I'm good.
Come on. No need to even joke about lowering your standards to the underworld!

With that said, it's worth remembering that Warren's current direct competition is not Trump. It's Biden and Bernie, with Buttigieg, Yang, and Harris trailing distantly behind and a fair few trailing well behind them currently. I dare to say that all of the others have much more significant problems than Warren, but that all of them would be overwhelmingly better than Trump.
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Old 13th October 2019, 12:43 PM   #1357
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I honestly don’t understand why the several candidates that weren’t invited to next week’s debate are even bothering to stay in the race.
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Old 13th October 2019, 01:17 PM   #1358
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Hear! Hear!

Let's suppose for the sake of the discussion that she did lie about how she left some 30 odd years ago.

And?

Her opponent in the presidential race will have lied about something quite significant about 5 minutes ago. Or two sentences ago. In this light we're supposed to focus on a trivial matter 30 years ago? Really?

It's maddening.
I don't base my vote for candidate X based on candidate Y. X has to earn my vote.
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:29 PM   #1359
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I just checked odds and Liz is clear favourite to take the Dem nomination now.

I have to admit to being surprised at how short she is, at $1-83 against Biden's $4-50.

Looks to be solidly that price all over.
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Old 13th October 2019, 05:33 PM   #1360
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If Liz is the favorite, I expect her to ramp up the pressure on an aging Donald Trump.

Make him look stupid to his own base.
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