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Tags cold reading , mediums , psychics

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Old 28th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #441
8enotto
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Not only is this stuff not true, but I don't get what would "freak out" anybody about that. It would make no difference in the life of anybody who just didn't go to mediums anyway.

The biggest factor is the audience. The people who go for this kind of stuff invariably end up reporting that what the con artist had did & said was something completely different from what the con artist actually did & said.
This is why I am a regular viewer of paranormal crap on tv, that and my life is boring.

To learn how to spot the parlor tricks. Some deliver in bulk on the games but most have gone to simply letting the viewers see the evidence and decide what it was. It's the best trick of all because there is one in each home out there that is right on whatever caused something heavy to fall off camera, or why a door moved.

Madame Woo isn't much different except she wants to run your card before she does the magic. It rarely seems what it really was, same tricks as any illusionist with scantily clad assistants and lots of theatrical movements. So you fail to see how mundane the real answer was. Distract and dazzle, but try not to reveal.
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:12 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
No, he didn't completely evade it. He said that mediums are selective in what they transmit from 'the other side.'
Not telling the whole truth is substantially lying. So if mediums are willing to impose their personal notions of proper messaging onto the message, then it's about the medium and not about the message or the departed. If mediums just tell people what they want to hear, or what they want them to hear, then they aren't genuine mediums. I see no material difference between distorting a message from beyond and making up a message from beyond.

What if the departed was a long-time abuser of the survivor, and the survivor would be most comforted by a message that the departed is suffering eternal torment for his behavior? How is a true medium supposed to navigate all these perils and pitfalls? Why are they said to channel something when their real job appears to blow sunshine up the survivor's tailpipe regardless of the facts?
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:15 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe it is not easy to come back and give messages to relatives, as the world is surrounded by dark psychic energy, caused by all the wars, and such, and a spirit has to descend through it to reach us. So they have to be motivated...
Then what right does a medium have to decide that the message the spirit risked all that to deliver is not suitable for the well-being of the client?
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Not telling the whole truth is substantially lying.

Good point.

Quote:
[i]t's about the medium and not about the message
Jay, this just resonated in a different way: Marshall McLuhan strikes again!
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:21 PM   #445
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Scorpion I am sorry but I have a hard time believing in what you do. Religion and spiritualism has only harmed me, magical thinking in my opinion harms society, it's illogical and irrational thinking.

Thank you for your replies people, yes this medium really has caused me a lot of damage
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:24 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
No, he didn't completely evade it. He said that mediums are selective in what they transmit from 'the other side.'

By implication, they would not tell you, for instance, that your grandmother hid the fact that she had been a prostitute and that your grandfather stole the money they left you so you could ... umm, buy a refrigerator.

Scorpion, suppose you asked 'Where did you hide the three million dollars you earned by stock trading and that you promised to bequeath to me?" If the medium got a truthful answer, do you think the medium* would transmit the answer?

*Edited to clarify. I am referring to the genuine mediums, not the fake ones.
I cannot say what a medium might, or might not do or say. I just think they help where they can.
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:41 PM   #447
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I'm sure there are mediums who are sincerely trying to help their clients but they're not trained psychologists or therapists, and are quite likely to do more harm than good even with the best of intentions.
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:52 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Thank you everyone for your replies. I have a lot of reading to do.
I have generally met some nice mediums who haven't asked for money, I guess I have got to stop wondering if they have magical powers.
A medium once told me she can channel God, she then told me she channeled God and God has said that I have been created as academically unintelligent, this is why I go in search... if she did indeed channel God then it means I am unable to learn new things and my confidence has been broken
No such thing. Sure, they may be nice. But they will ALWAYS get round to making money out of it, one way or another. Even if you have to be used as an advertisement of "success" to convince others.

So an easy rule to remember: With psychics, it's all about the money. YOUR money.
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Old 28th September 2019, 12:55 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
No such thing. Sure, they may be nice. But they will ALWAYS get round to making money out of it, one way or another. Even if you have to be used as an advertisement of "success" to convince others.

So an easy rule to remember: With psychics, it's all about the money. YOUR money.
Nah, a minority are in it for for the ego massage that comes from undeserved respect.
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Old 28th September 2019, 01:10 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I cannot say what a medium might, or might not do or say.
Except that you did. You said
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Most mediums I encountered don't relate unsympathetic messages. They are trying to help people and give them comfort and guidance.
You specifically put the medium's judgment at the center of the question and speculated on the criteria they should employ.

Quote:
I just think they help where they can.
And your critics are asking you questions designed to show the contradiction in your reasoning. If the medium's judgment applies, then how is the medium supposed to know what is sympathetic, comforting, or helpful?

Comfort and guidance are two different things. I can offer someone one without offering them the other. If a genuine medium is filtering the message, and the result is guidance, then to what extent should the medium be responsible for the consequences of that guidance? What if the guidance would have been received differently if the client had heard the whole message?

You're making all this up as you go, and you're not thinking through all the consequences. You claim there are genuine mediums, but your concept of the scenarios that would operate in those circumstances is comically simplistic. You aren't allowed to get away with that simplistic level of detail when you're asserting what is the genuine state of affairs.

Last edited by JayUtah; 28th September 2019 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 28th September 2019, 01:17 PM   #451
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It's a mad world, this psychic world but sadly a lot of people fall for it including me.... but me being a deep thinker, I wanted to dive deeper... I mean these mediums, why do they only relay sugar coated messages (most of the time) although the reading I had led me to have crippling self esteem.... they also believe in some sort of creator who allows such evil in this world, it's insane!
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Old 28th September 2019, 01:20 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Nah, a minority are in it for for the ego massage that comes from undeserved respect.
Some of them have tried to guide me in terms of the reading I had with this awful medium, again perhaps they believe they are really psychic. They don't even come across as deluded or mad, what's scary is they seem normal everyday good people.
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Old 28th September 2019, 01:38 PM   #453
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(the concept of) God is powerful. He is the almighty.
And it's a safe bet the psychics mark is religious. So a generic god is perfect as a tool for her. If she was Indian and in India it would be another powerful god or goddess.

It doesn't matter which if it pays out.

A good person will help you heal, a good real psychic will heal you of the damages of the charlatan before. For a fee. It builds on thier perceived ability by standing on the other. Unless you see through that too.

Always question motive. Understand the drives of the other especially if your money is on the table. Ask what you get for what you give. A pile of reassurance and a slap on the backside isn't worth the psychics price.
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Old 28th September 2019, 01:56 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Some of them have tried to guide me in terms of the reading I had with this awful medium, again perhaps they believe they are really psychic. They don't even come across as deluded or mad, what's scary is they seem normal everyday good people.
They may consider themselves good people, and in some cases even honestly think they're doing good, but they are replacing peoples real memories of their loved ones with made up stuff and interrupting and drawing out the grieving process for people in pain by pretending to have super powers that let them be the super special conduit to keep these lost people in their lives.
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Old 28th September 2019, 03:14 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Some of them have tried to guide me in terms of the reading I had with this awful medium, again perhaps they believe they are really psychic. They don't even come across as deluded or mad, what's scary is they seem normal everyday good people.

Here are two links for your edification:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Gerbic


https://abouttimeproject.wordpress.com/susan-gerbic/


This one is also linked in the Wikipedia article:


https://pointofinquiry.org/2019/04/t...-susan-gerbic/
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Old 28th September 2019, 03:16 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
They may consider themselves good people, and in some cases even honestly think they're doing good, but they are replacing peoples real memories of their loved ones with made up stuff and interrupting and drawing out the grieving process for people in pain by pretending to have super powers that let them be the super special conduit to keep these lost people in their lives.
It's pure narcissism. We don't have to quantify how many of it are doing it for money. It's just distasteful on its face for someone to interpolate himself into my grieving process and assume a special position in the relationship between me and a departed loved one. Especially a position that tends to supplant the departed and assume a position of privilege. If the desire is to give comfort and consolation, then just give comfort and consolation. That's the proper expression of that ethos.
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Old 28th September 2019, 04:06 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It's pure narcissism. We don't have to quantify how many of it are doing it for money. It's just distasteful on its face for someone to interpolate himself into my grieving process and assume a special position in the relationship between me and a departed loved one. Especially a position that tends to supplant the departed and assume a position of privilege. If the desire is to give comfort and consolation, then just give comfort and consolation. That's the proper expression of that ethos.
Exactly. Although I think Penn put it best on BS, I'd find and transcribe it, but whats the point when it would mostly come out as asterisks.
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Old 28th September 2019, 04:43 PM   #458
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Here is a five-minute audio file of Penn Gillette describing how someone learned cold reading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vHS0dZl3OU

(Strictly audio, even though it's on YouTube.)
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Old 29th September 2019, 01:49 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I naturally had two grandmothers,
Clearly there is no way a medium could have known this about you. They must be genuine!
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Old 1st October 2019, 02:54 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Thank you for the links. Is Susan a debunked?
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Old 1st October 2019, 04:52 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Thank you for the links. Is Susan a debunked?
I'm aware you didn't ask me, but your question is curious. Are you suggesting she - Susan - was debunked by someone? For what? She is the debunker.
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Old 1st October 2019, 05:30 PM   #462
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I assume Amy meant to type "debunker."
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Old 1st October 2019, 06:10 PM   #463
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"Debunker": I don't really like that word because it smacks of meanness.


Susan, like many of us here, is interested in exposing people who knowingly defraud others by preying on their grief and uncertainty and fears.


She's also a very nice person, and very easy to talk to.
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Old 1st October 2019, 11:33 PM   #464
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Sorry I had meant debunker, whoops!
I've actually just sent her a message and she has responded :-)

Wasapi thank you, I am very curious, so information and links etc are very much appreciated :-)
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Old 2nd October 2019, 09:29 AM   #465
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Also, reading her brief autobiographical statement was of great interest to me. She credited our own Robert Lancaster, my good friend, with being the inspiration for what she does now. RIP, Robert. You were more important then you ever realized.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 03:05 PM   #466
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Are there any of good skeptic out there who debunk psychics? I've been in touch with Susan
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Old 3rd October 2019, 08:46 PM   #467
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Amy, have you looked at the Million Dollar Challenge part of this forum?
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:17 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Are there any of good skeptic out there who debunk psychics? I've been in touch with Susan
There are some psychologists who specialise in understanding why people have irrational beliefs. One such is Chris French, a Professor of Psychology at the University of London:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_French

https://www.gold.ac.uk/psychology/staff/french/
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:26 PM   #469
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I've met him. Nice bloke.
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Old 4th October 2019, 12:03 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've met him. Nice bloke.
Me too, at DowserDon's pre-test for the JREF MDC, and agreed, very nice bloke. Must have the patience of a rock.
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Old 4th October 2019, 12:04 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Me too, at DowserDon's pre-test for the JREF MDC, and agreed, very nice bloke. Must have the patience of a rock.
I met him when he came down for the Australian Skeptics National Convention in 2013, for which I was the MC.
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Old 4th October 2019, 04:42 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'm sure there are mediums who are sincerely trying to help their clients but they're not trained psychologists or therapists, and are quite likely to do more harm than good even with the best of intentions.
Well said.

I had someone accost me one day and tell me that she was psychic and had a message for me from my father. She told me that he was "watching over me." She acted as if she were giving me comfort.

My relationship with my father was ... well, let's just say that I miss him, but the idea of him continuing to "watch over me" isn't comforting. For some people, the situation with their father could have been much worse. And those words could have had a chilling effect.
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Old 4th October 2019, 06:42 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
Well said.

I had someone accost me one day and tell me that she was psychic and had a message for me from my father. She told me that he was "watching over me." She acted as if she were giving me comfort.

My relationship with my father was ... well, let's just say that I miss him, but the idea of him continuing to "watch over me" isn't comforting. For some people, the situation with their father could have been much worse. And those words could have had a chilling effect.

Please tell us if this was someone you knew or a stranger.



Was there any detail to make you believe this was your father, or was this a generic message?



Did the person want money or was this just a passing "kind gesture"?
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Old 4th October 2019, 07:00 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
I had someone accost me one day and tell me that she was psychic and had a message for me from my father. She told me that he was "watching over me."
Damn, I wish that had happened to me. I'd have asked her to wait while I phoned him, and then put him on speaker while I checked whether that was what he really said.

Dave
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Old 4th October 2019, 11:59 AM   #475
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Wow really, how on earth would she of known your father wasn't alive? That's creepy
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Old 4th October 2019, 12:18 PM   #476
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Not really. I'm not sure when this event occurred, but a quick check of Jadebox's profile shows an age of 57. I'd venture to guess a good majority of 57 year olds have lost a parent, or more likely two.

(Sorry Jadebox, not trying to be a creeper!)
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Old 4th October 2019, 12:23 PM   #477
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Ahh I see, I just can't fathom why these people want to lie purely for money!!
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:12 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Ahh I see, I just can't fathom why these people want to lie purely for money!!
It is quite simple. It comes down to a personal separation of church and state.

I make my living (and a handsome living at that) doing X.
I do not spend my personal life doing X.

Sylvia Browne et al happily pull this stuff on total strangers because it then becomes a primarily financial transaction with an anonymous mark. That makes it easy to divorce ones ethics and morality and empathy from the mark.

Put it this way. If a family member or friend had a flat wheel on a lonely windswept road and was stuck, then one would go the extra mile to sort them out.

But if a total stranger had the same circumstance, one would have far less motivation to do so. This is why emergency wheel repair vans exist.

What would you do if a total stranger called you at the side of the road at random seeking your aid?

What would you do differently if it was one of your nearest and dearest? Would it be different?
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:13 PM   #479
xjx388
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Ahh I see, I just can't fathom why these people want to lie purely for money!!


Because it’s a form of lying that the lied-to seeks out, has a low chance of being prosecuted and oftentimes, the liar is convinced they aren’t lying.

Easy money if you have the knack for cold reading, the resources to hot read and the ability to lie without conscience or fool yourself.
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:14 PM   #480
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Ahh I see, I just can't fathom why these people want to lie purely for money!!
Sometimes it's money (without the trouble of earning it), sometimes it's respect & status (without the trouble of earning it).
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