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Tags donald trump , Hunter Biden , joe biden , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies , US-Ukraine relations

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Old 24th September 2019, 06:58 PM   #441
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Romney: tut, tut there Donald.

You call that criticism?
I'd like to see one of the bastards criticize McConnell.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:02 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's theprestige. At least have the consistency of your convictions.
Disappointing. You could’ve said: Ha! Nice one! Touché! High five!

A waste of perfectly good pearls.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:08 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I wasn't talking about the final vote, I was referring to the delay tactic.

Upon reading a bit, it seems the law leaves McConnell all kinds of gaps to pull his unethical BS to delay the trial.
I'm pretty sure Roberts can prevent shenanigans. That is if he's so inclined.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:09 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Disappointing. You could’ve said: Ha! Nice one! Touché! High five!

A waste of perfectly good pearls.
I got a chuckle out of it.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:36 PM   #445
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One of the Fox News videos popping up as featured on Youtube is "Did Pelosi give in to the "Squad"?"
They really are an all-purpose boogeyman, aren't they?
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:03 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
One of the Fox News videos popping up as featured on Youtube is "Did Pelosi give in to the "Squad"?"
They really are an all-purpose boogeyman, aren't they?

Inventing a boogeyman is how republicans win elections. Their base slurps it up like sweet nectar. And Fox News knows it.
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:20 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I can't think of anybody who has fallen in my opinion as far as Giuliani has.
He seems to have lost his sanity,
"seems"???
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Old 25th September 2019, 05:44 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Let the investigation proceed. Maybe they'll find something worth finding. If not, you'll have to count on the voters to get rid of him.
Yea I mean all the felonies we know he committed already are nothing, rich people are above the law after all.
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Old 25th September 2019, 05:46 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
We already know he talked to Ukraine about Biden. We also know that Trump withheld aid that was authorized by Congress. How much do you need?
Clearly more than a nothing like say him standing on fifth avenue and executing someone, it has to be something serious.
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Old 25th September 2019, 05:50 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think the public is moveable and the Republican Senators may decide it is not in their best interest to continue supporting Trump.
Please republicans hate the idea that the law should apply to the rich and powerful they aren't going to let it apply to trump. He is above the law and always has been.
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Old 25th September 2019, 05:51 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It won't be up to McConnell. The Constitution is very clear that the trial is to be presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. This is not a ceremonial position.
What timeline does the constitution give?
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Old 25th September 2019, 07:55 AM   #452
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The transcript has been released and can be viewed here.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:02 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The transcript has been released and can be viewed here.
Trump talking about CrowdStrike ...
interesting...
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:02 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Constitutionally I don't believe McConnell has a choice. If the House issues articles of Impeachment, the Senate must hold the trial.
And what would anyone do if Moscow Mitch refuses? Arrest him?

That's the issue right now.

No, the impeachment is about the election. They can't have a reasonable expectation of getting Trump booted.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:04 AM   #455
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That is so much more blatant than I'd figured. They've even got a confession to an emoluments violation shoved in there. Just imagine the crap they aren't releasing.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:08 AM   #456
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House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff on Twitter:

Quote:
The transcript of the call reads like a classic mob shakedown:

– We do a lot for Ukraine
– There’s not much reciprocity
– I have a favor to ask
– Investigate my opponent
– My people will be in touch

Nice country you got there.

It would be a shame if something happened to her.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:18 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What timeline does the constitution give?
It doesn't. But if Roberts decides that the Republicans are trying to circumvent the Constitution by dragging it out, he has a right, no a duty to step in. He "presides" over the process. Which means he rules over the proceedings.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:24 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And what would anyone do if Moscow Mitch refuses? Arrest him?

That's the issue right now.

No, the impeachment is about the election. They can't have a reasonable expectation of getting Trump booted.
Then it's up to Roberts. Roberts can hold McConnell in contempt. The process can work. But it requires people to obey the law. If they all say "screw it", then the country is screwed.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:31 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff on Twitter:
Yes, the reason the conversation is structured that way is it is not distinguishable from a legitimate conversation. Government should not target people because their activities look legitimate.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:42 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The transcript has been released and can be viewed here.
Well, that's not a transcript at all, for one thing.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:45 AM   #461
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Just had one thought about how this could lead to a bad narrative for the Dems.

It's not a stretch to think that some people in the general public are going to see this as the Dems being hesitant on impeachment... until Trump went after one of them.

Some people could be reading this as Democrats going "Kids in cages, fine, sexual assault, fine, Russian campaign interference, fine... going after the Democratic Primaries... GET HIM!"
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:48 AM   #462
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Quote:
Quote:
Not a single prominent Republican that you have ever heard of has stepped forward to criticize Trump. Temperate or not, mainstream or not. By their silence they have been complicit and this aspect of their record will be hammered on. Nothing to calm the waters in 2020, and maybe not by 2024.
No Republican currently holding office, that is. A number who are retired have been pretty rough on Trump.
Not sure how much their criticism counts... considering that they were quite willing to support his actions when they were in office (including confirming Drunky McRapeface and voting for the Republican tax plan).
Quote:
Well there was McCain, but now he's dead.
Yes, McCain, who famously opposed the Republican health care repeal plan, but still voted for rules that allowed Trump to stack the supreme court, and for the republican tax plan.

I'm sorry, if Trump's actions were so serious and people like McCain were so alarmed at what was going on, why were they still republicans? Why did they vote in congress in ways that would allow such abuses to continue?
Quote:
What, you haven't heard of Mitt Romney before?
The same Romney who complained about Trump, but voted to confirm Barr as Att. Gen.(despite the fact it was obvious he would be Trump's lap dog)?
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:50 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Alabama is in ruins and the lying media cover it up!
Was in ruins. The Trump admin fixed it right up and now it is exactly as it was before the disaster. As if nothing happened, really.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:51 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Gawd bless the Mercifully Generous Messiah™
MGM?
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:53 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This had one thought about how this could lead to a bad narrative for the Dems.

It's not a stretch to think that some people in the general public are going to see this as the Dems being hesitant on impeachment... until Trump went after one of them.

Some people could be reading this as Democrats going "Kids in cages, fine, sexual assault, fine, Russian campaign interference, fine... going after the Democratic Primaries... GET HIM!"
You spend way too much time imagining what your enemies might possibly think to use against you. Why don't you just wait until they say something then respond to that?

I bet you're one of those people who imagines arguments with people. It's a waste of time and borrowing trouble. And it doesn't strengthen your position by "considering possible attacks", it weakens it by wasting energy and increasing your confusion when they do attack with something you haven't anticipated.

I think you'd be a lot happier of you settled down and dealt with what's actually happening rather than what you imagine may happen.
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:57 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It doesn't. But if Roberts decides that the Republicans are trying to circumvent the Constitution by dragging it out, he has a right, no a duty to step in. He "presides" over the process. Which means he rules over the proceedings.
Okay, so what does "rules over the proceedings" mean?

In 1797, the Senate refused to hold an impeachment trial for Senator William Blount, citing lack of jurisdiction. Would the person who "rules over the proceedings" have the authority to overrule the Senate on the question of jurisdiction? Compel the Senate to hold a trial anyway? Censure Senators for not conducting the trial?

In the 1980s, the Senate started conducting some portions of the trial before a committee, rather than before the full Senate. Some defendants protested that this was unconstitutional, but the Supreme Court ruled that this wasn't a question the judiciary could answer. Would the person who "rules over the proceedings" have the authority to compel the Senate to conduct the trial before the full membership, rather than before a committee?

According to Wikipedia, "A number of rules have been adopted by the House and Senate, and are honored by tradition." Would the person who "rules over the proceedings" have the authority to compel the Senate to ignore or abide by any of these traditional rules?

I think these a probably complex legal and constitutional questions, with no clear answers, and probably not even any one "right" answer. You can't just say that "presides" means "rules over the proceedings" and have it magically mean whatever you think it needs to mean for Roberts to be able to do whatever you think he's supposed to be able to do.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I bet you're one of those people who imagines arguments with people. It's a waste of time and borrowing trouble. And it doesn't strengthen your position by "considering possible attacks", it weakens it by wasting energy and increasing your confusion when they do attack with something you haven't anticipated.
I used to do that all the time, and with the exact same results you describe. I mostly grew out of it.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:04 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Then it's up to Roberts. Roberts can hold McConnell in contempt.
In contempt of what?

Contempt of court? There is no court. Roberts does not represent the court, when he presides over Senate impeachment trials.

Contempt of Congress? The Senate *is* Congress. I think this would fall under the principle that only the legislature has the authority to judge its own. The Senate could censure McConnell if they wished, but I don't think the person presiding over the impeachment could.

Contempt for the constitution? Is that even a thing? To the extent that it is, we don't seem to think of it as the kind of thing that can be ruled by fiat from the bench. The question of contempt for the constitution seems to be a question that must properly be answered by a full trial, and careful deliberation by a panel of judges. Right? SCOTUS doesn't consist of one judge looking at the defendant and ruling "contempt!"

In terms of impeachment proceedings, what does being held in contempt by the president of the trial actually mean? If anything?
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:15 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I used to do that all the time, and with the exact same results you describe. I mostly grew out of it.
My sister argues with an imaginary version of our mother, then gets mad at the real one for what was said!
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:19 AM   #470
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Listen politics is the one place where "I don't care what people think about me" is naive and not noble.

We can't bury our heads in the sand and not worry about the PR of this just because it feels dirty to do it.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:21 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Listen politics is the one place where "I don't care what people think about me" is naive and not noble.

We can't bury our heads in the sand and not worry about the PR of this just because it feels dirty to do it.
It is the most Noble stance.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:23 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Listen politics is the one place where "I don't care what people think about me" is naive and not noble.

We can't bury our heads in the sand and not worry about the PR of this just because it feels dirty to do it.
My point was to worry about what's actually said, not what you imagine may be said. Deal with the reality, not your imagination.

Autocorrect tried to change "my point" to "my pony" and I was very tempted to leave it like that.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:29 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In contempt of what?

Contempt of court? There is no court. Roberts does not represent the court, when he presides over Senate impeachment trials.

Contempt of Congress? The Senate *is* Congress. I think this would fall under the principle that only the legislature has the authority to judge its own. The Senate could censure McConnell if they wished, but I don't think the person presiding over the impeachment could.

Contempt for the constitution? Is that even a thing? To the extent that it is, we don't seem to think of it as the kind of thing that can be ruled by fiat from the bench. The question of contempt for the constitution seems to be a question that must properly be answered by a full trial, and careful deliberation by a panel of judges. Right? SCOTUS doesn't consist of one judge looking at the defendant and ruling "contempt!"

In terms of impeachment proceedings, what does being held in contempt by the president of the trial actually mean? If anything?
Its a trial held in the Senate. But the Chief Justice is the judge. It's a defacto court room being run by the highest justice in the land. Who the hell are you going to appeal his rulings to? Roberts can say the trial is going to be held on this day and that's when it will begin. McConnell has no authority.in this matter. None.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:29 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Well, that's not a transcript at all, for one thing.
And remember how they attacked Comey for taking notes on conversations, clearly all that can be dismissed for the same reasons.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:32 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's always weird when robots try to lecture me about how natural languages work. I'm like, you're a robot. Your simple systems of forma logic clearly aren't up to the task of telling a human being how to talk. Go back to assembling cars or something.
That particular robot expressed an opinion consistent with Ukraine's opinion.

Per Wikipedia:
"The Ukraine" used to be the usual form in English,[21] but since the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine, "the Ukraine" has become less common in the English-speaking world, and style-guides largely recommend not using the definite article.[12][22] "The Ukraine" now implies disregard for the country's sovereignty, according to U.S. ambassador William Taylor.[23] The Ukrainian position is that the usage of "'The Ukraine' is incorrect both grammatically and politically."[7]
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My point was to worry about what's actually said, not what you imagine may be said. Deal with the reality, not your imagination.

Autocorrect tried to change "my point" to "my pony" and I was very tempted to leave it like that.
Now I'm imagining that you said "my pony", and I'm kinda worried about it.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Its a trial held in the Senate. But the Chief Justice is the judge. It's a defacto court room being run by the highest justice in the land. Who the hell are you going to appeal his rulings to? Roberts can say the trial is going to be held on this day and that's when it will begin. McConnell has no authority.in this matter. None.
There are many courts with many different rules. It isn't clear what set of rules apply to what the judge is presiding.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:38 AM   #478
theprestige
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That particular robot expressed an opinion consistent with Ukraine's opinion.

Per Wikipedia:
"The Ukraine" used to be the usual form in English,[21] but since the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine, "the Ukraine" has become less common in the English-speaking world, and style-guides largely recommend not using the definite article.[12][22] "The Ukraine" now implies disregard for the country's sovereignty, according to U.S. ambassador William Taylor.[23] The Ukrainian position is that the usage of "'The Ukraine' is incorrect both grammatically and politically."[7]
I have a low opinion of people who choose to take offense at usual and innocuous forms.

For example: I have high regard for the sovereignty of the Ukraine (higher, certainly, than does Vladimir Putin, and perhaps higher than does Barack Obama). But I still tend to the older forms. If the US Ambassador wants to read (incorrectly) as disregard, and be butthurt for the Ukrainians on their behalf, that's his choice. He can be wrong and mad if he wants. Ukraine itself can be wrong and mad if they want. I have high regard for its sovereignty, but that doesn't mean I have high regard for every one of its opinions and bugbears.

But this, at least, is a more sensible argument than "but language!" Natural languages are matters of usage, not prescription. If everybody calls it the Ukraine, it's the Ukraine, regardless of what the grammarians and the politicians say. If you want me to change my opinion, don't lecture me on how language is supposed to be. Try lecturing me on how "Ukraine" is an important social and political gesture that emphasizes the nation's sovereignty, in contrast to its previous existence as a vassal state in the USSR. In other words, argue like a human being who understands and values human context. Don't argue like a robot who doesn't understand how natural languages work.

Last edited by theprestige; 25th September 2019 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:45 AM   #479
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are many courts with many different rules. It isn't clear what set of rules apply to what the judge is presiding.
No, it's not. But he is the person "presiding". His authority is pretty much final. The Senate conducts the trial and are the jurors. I'm sure Roberts will discuss/negotiate the rules with the Senate, but in the end the decision about the rules are his to make. In effect, this is his courtroom.
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Old 25th September 2019, 09:48 AM   #480
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For a long while how you pronounced "Kenya" revealed your political stance on it...to people aware of and interested in Kenya. Everybody else said it how they were taught to say it and were oblivious of any deeper significance that others may attach.

Now excuse me, I must fuel my yacht for its voyage from the Sea of Japan to the Malvinas, with stops in both separate Chinas, Myanmar, and Kampuchea along the way.
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