ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING!

Reply
Old 21st February 2018, 12:44 PM   #2041
ThatGuy11200
New Blood
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Feel free to start a movement toward that end.
If he did, would you take the movement seriously or would you just dismiss the people involved as MRAs?
ThatGuy11200 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2018, 03:20 PM   #2042
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,367
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I have never been in the "always believe" camp
There. Now that wasn't so hard was it?

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
and I challenge you to find a single in-context quote that says otherwise.
No one was accusing you of anything of the sort

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
As I have said all along, this is a difficult and complicated issue that is not capable of the sort of easy, quick-fix, sound-bite answers that so many on both sides are demanding, whether that's the "listen and believe" or "OMG false accustion" crowds. It's an issue that should be listened to and taken seriously, given appropriate consideration; which is not something that has been prevalent in the culture up to this point. Culturally, this is an issue that, except for a tiny number of high-profile cases, has been routinely diminished, dismissed, and outright ridiculed. As evidenced in this very thread. The #MeToo movement is an attempt to correct a pervasive and long-ignored problem, and deserves to be given serious consideration, something it seems a great number of people are unwilling to do, because it doesn't fit their preferred and privileged worldview.

It's also sad to see how quickly people latch onto tribalism to dismiss the movement and the problem it seeks to shine a light on; how quickly a "we should be cautious" statement is immediately pounced on and transformed into "It's gone too far and needs to be killed!" How otherwise liberal people are taking the objections of anti-feminist conservative women at face value, but not the experiences of the women in the movement. Not to mention how quickly the assertions of someone like Catherine Deneuve were picked up and distorted into supporting the anti-#MeToo sentiments, despite her comments clearly partaking of the same in-group vs. out-group dynamic that characterized the showbiz industry's widespread support for Roman Polanski even after he admitted to drugging and raping underage girls.

There's too much emotionalism, and too much adherence to the status quo masquerading as rational skepticism, with very little actual useful discussion happening.
This is all well and good, but I don't think anyone here believes that the "power" sexual abuse being brought up by the #metoo movement needs to be swept under the rug and stay there. Far from it in fact. I have repeatedly said that I support the stated intent of the movement and what it is trying to achieve, i.e. be a voice for people who have suffered sexual abuse at the hands of people who have power over them in the workplace.

However, what troubles me about the movement is that it has been misused by certain people with an axe to grind in order to make false allegations, and they seem to be able to do so anonymously and with impunity, resulting in people having had their good names trashed in public. The Grace/Ansari example is a case in point. I think Ansari handled the unwarranted public trashing of his name both graciously and generously. In his position I would have been a lot less understanding. "Grace" wanted to remain anonymous (a gutless act IMO). I would not have respected her wishes. I would have exposed her for who she was so that other men potentially going on a date with her would be forewarned about the malarkey they might have to deal with.

I am a firm believer in jurisprudence; that every accused person is entitled to four basic rights

1. The Presumption of innocence
2. Due process
3. Facing their accuser
4. A fair trial

The #metoo movement bypasses all four of those basic rights. This results in a kind of "mob rule" where accusations are made anonymously and publicly, and the guilt or innocence is judged by the media and bunch of twitter account holders.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I'd say that I'm interested in seeing how my latest comments are going to be cherry-picked and distorted, but by now I can pretty much predict the results with boring certainty, and it's clear there isn't enough reasonable discussion going on under all the noise.
You make comments, expect them to be picked apart

By the way, did you read any of my post #2032 and the information I linked to? If so, are you now prepared to retract your claim that sexual abuse by women consists only of rare "one-off" examples?
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.

Last edited by smartcooky; 21st February 2018 at 03:23 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2018, 03:43 PM   #2043
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 70,796
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You make comments, expect them to be picked apart
The nerve of these people! Breaking up my posts in order to create some sort of "counter argument". Pshaw!
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2018, 04:48 PM   #2044
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,203
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I am a firm believer in jurisprudence; that every accused person is entitled to four basic rights

1. The Presumption of innocence
2. Due process
3. Facing their accuser
4. A fair trial

The #metoo movement bypasses all four of those basic rights. This results in a kind of "mob rule" where accusations are made anonymously and publicly, and the guilt or innocence is judged by the media and bunch of twitter account holders.

Since these particular principles only apply to a court of law, not to individual private business policies, I'm not really sure what the point of this was. And in any case, women rarely get even this much consideration in a court of law, but are mostly simply dismissed or denigrated.

Quote:
By the way, did you read any of my post #2032 and the information I linked to? If so, are you now prepared to retract your claim that sexual abuse by women consists only of rare "one-off" examples?

Yes, which I noticed doesn't exactly refute my assertion that sexual harassment of men by women is rare compared to sexual harassment of women by men. This is just another Gish Gallop.

That does not address the specific topic of this thread, which is sexual harassment by people in power. Even with the estimates in the men by women is nowhere near as prevalent as sexual harassment of women by men, simple due to the fact that historically, and even today, there are nowhere near as many women in positions of power with the opportunity to commit such harassment.

But to address your cherry-picked linkspam: The studies you linked to contain information on all forms of sexual abuse, including violent sexual abuse, which I have already noted in mulitple other threads on the subject is more prevalent than currently acknowledged -- but keep in mind that "more prevalent" is nowhere near the same as "equally prevalent".

Your use of the links and cherry-picking of data also does not include the fact that the study includes all sexual abuse by women, the majority of which is targeted at other women, and includes prison rape. It also ignores the fact that female perpetrators of sexual violence are far more likely to target younger children and disabled or otherwise vulnerable adults than they are to target able-bodied men. One of the primary reasons that female-perpetrated sexual violence by non-prison-inmates is so grossly under-reported.

And since you apparently didn't read the entire articles you linked to, let me provided you with a quote from one of them:

Quote:
Our findings might be critically viewed as an effort to upend a women’s rights agenda that focuses on the sexual threat posed by men. To the contrary, we argue that male-perpetrated sexual victimization remains a chronic problem, from the schoolyard to the White House. In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men. In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways.

Contrast that with this:
Quote:
We also pooled four years of the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) data and found that 35 percent of male victims who experienced rape or sexual assault reported at least one female perpetrator.

So, 65% of male victims of sexual violence, already a far smaller pool than female victims of sexual violence, were victimized exclusively by other men.

Looks like you're going to have to work harder if you want to turn this into a "men are the true victims" thread. Yes, men can be and often are victims, and that is something I have long said needed to be addressed (while being ridiculed for doing so by some of the same posters in this thread); but the scale of the problem between males and females is tremendous, and there is still a great deal of cultural resistance to even acknowledging the true scale of the problem.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 21st February 2018 at 04:57 PM.
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2018, 05:33 PM   #2045
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 7,367
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Since these particular principles only apply to a court of law,
No, they apply to everyone, at all times, before it even gets to court. Due process begins the moment an accusation is made, and authorities begin their investigation. Presumption of innocence applies from the beginning of the investigation.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Yes, which I doesn't exactly refute my assertion that sexual harassment of men by women is rare compared to sexual harassment of women by men
Zooooom.. and there go the goalposts.


You said they were one-offs, not that they are rare by comparison. That is a whole different argument.

Annually, there are about 1000-1200 men every who are sexually assaulted by women in the USA. Its a small number compared with the 200,000+ women sexually assaulted by men BUT IT IS NOT AN INSIGNIFICANT NUMBER, nor is it "rare" or "just a one-off". Pretending that it is (as you were claiming) does a gross injustice to those men who have suffered the ignominy of such assaults.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That does not address the specific topic of this thread, which is sexual harassment by people in power. Even with the estimates in the men by women is nowhere near as prevalent as sexual harassment of women by men, simple due to the fact that historically, and even today, there are nowhere near as many women in positions of power with the opportunity to commit such harassment.
See above

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
But to address your cherry-picked linkspam: The studies you linked to contain information on all forms of sexual abuse, including violent sexual abuse, which I have already noted in mulitple other threads on the subject is more prevalent than currently acknowledged -- but keep in mind that "more prevalent" is nowhere near the same as "equally prevalent".
"Equally prevalent" is your strawman. I didn't claim that, and I never have.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Your use of the links and cherry-picking of data also does not include the fact that the study includes all sexual abuse by women, the majority of which is targeted at other women, and includes prison rape. It also ignores the fact that female perpetrators of sexual violence are far more likely to target younger children and disabled or otherwise vulnerable adults than they are to target able-bodied men. One of the primary reasons that female-perpetrated sexual violence by non-prison-inmates is so grossly under-reported.
And since you apparently didn't read the entire articles you linked to, let me provided you with a quote from one of them:
I DID READ THEM, that I why I posted them, they supported my argument at that time. Your argument was that they are rare, one-offs. You have now pulled a switcheroo, and have revised your claim to "rare by comparison".

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Looks like you're going to have to work harder if you want to turn this into a "men are the true victims" thread.
You must have an unlimited supply of straw. No-one, least of all me, is claiming this. You are lying; you made that up from whole cloth.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Yes, men can be and often are victims, and that is something I have long said needed to be addressed (while being ridiculed for doing so by some of the same posters in this thread); but the scale of the problem between males and females is tremendous, and there is still a great deal of cultural resistance to even acknowledging the true scale of the problem.
Well, at least you've actually swallowed some pride and admitted this. I guess that is the closest I'm ever going to get to a retraction.

PS: You aren't by any chance related to ponderturtle are you
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2018, 05:39 PM   #2046
wasapi
Illuminator
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,850
The OP

So, back to the question. Has it gone "too far"?

My view, my opinion, is of course influenced by experience. I am female, coming of age in the late 60's, in Hollywood, CA. I worked in the entertainment field, mostly for a film, TV, play, producer. I was attending an art college during the day, and often serving celebrities drinks in the evening. After less then 2 years, I fled from Southern California. Well, fled? More like raced away screaming out the window all the way North.

There were incidents of sexual abuse in my life, both as a child and an adult. In my 30's, a well respected doctor attempted to rape me. I won't elaborate, but I also worked for a few years at a sexual assault crisis center. When you take into account mixing my experiences with my general personality, (introverted, independent), I'll try to explain my observation;

First of all, the movement went too far when it became a crusade. "Beware the crusader". In the peak of it, I had already tired of seeing, reading, hearing women find a way - often on social media - to add their "me too". Flooding the issue to a point it seemed like it only diluted its impact.

Also, in working on the sexual abuse hotline, as well as a crisis and suicide hot line, (as well as having several close male friends, both straight and gay), I heard many male voices that often go unheard. Who do they tell, when it is of such a personal nature?

I guess what I'm saying is, males and female are sometimes sexually assaulted, abused, by people who have some power over them. Men and women are sometimes falsely accused. In the extreme, lives are ruined, jobs are lost, families broken. And, I have no idea how to fix it. I don't know that anyone does. Personally, joining the movement in an active way doesn't appeal to me. It seems it has opened once again a male versus female atmosphere. A division that I avoided in the 70's when women's groups were in most neighborhoods. No doubt I will get some grief for this post, but . . .

Can't we just be good people and get along?
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2018, 06:00 PM   #2047
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,417
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
So, back to the question. Has it gone "too far"?
I don't like getting this deep into semantics and nitpicking the wording, but I think that's a loaded question.

Can a noble cause be misused? Absolutely.

Can a noble cause go to far. Errrrr that's harder to answer because it becomes a matter of defining "the cause." And that opens us up to the standard death spiral of "No true Scotsman" versus terms slowly morphing into insulting implications of themselves.

It it possible for a cause to become popular and for it to gain... moment and for it stay "pure?" Probably not.

But I'm one of the biggest boosters of "perfect" being the enemy of "good." No movement to better the world should be held to the standard of never making anything worse in any circumstance. That's an impossible standard.

Quote:
Can't we just be good people and get along?
I like to hope, regardless of how heated, bitter, and toxic these discussions somehow become, that that is always the goal of all decent people.
__________________
(Formally JoeBentley)

"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2018, 06:31 PM   #2048
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,459
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, they apply to everyone, at all times, before it even gets to court. Due process begins the moment an accusation is made, and authorities begin their investigation. Presumption of innocence applies from the beginning of the investigation.
It applies only to the people involved in the legal process. I am not involved in that process and can judge and do as I see fit.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2018, 08:42 PM   #2049
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 4,593
I don't see the point of this latest digression. Regardless of who harasses whom more on a statistical level, ALL individuals who abuse their authority to extort inappropriate sexual dominance in the workplace are now being called upon to cut it out. That means lady bosses, trans bosses, intersexed bosses, otherkin bosses, and whatever else you can dream up.

I suspect men underreport harassment due to social convention. They might be embarrassed to seem intimidated by a woman in any sense. I would personally love it if that trope died too. But the numbers really don't matter as far as the intended message is concerned.

Am I wrong?
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2018, 12:57 AM   #2050
ThatGuy11200
New Blood
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I don't see the point of this latest digression. Regardless of who harasses whom more on a statistical level, ALL individuals who abuse their authority to extort inappropriate sexual dominance in the workplace are now being called upon to cut it out. That means lady bosses, trans bosses, intersexed bosses, otherkin bosses, and whatever else you can dream up.

I suspect men underreport harassment due to social convention. They might be embarrassed to seem intimidated by a woman in any sense. I would personally love it if that trope died too. But the numbers really don't matter as far as the intended message is concerned.

Am I wrong?
Personally, I wouldn't dream of reporting all the middle-aged women who make innuendos, innapropriate comments and occasionally initiate a hug without my consent. Trying to destroy someone's life over something so small seems really petty.
ThatGuy11200 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2018, 03:11 AM   #2051
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,246
Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Personally, I wouldn't dream of reporting all the middle-aged women who make innuendos, innapropriate comments and occasionally initiate a hug without my consent. Trying to destroy someone's life over something so small seems really petty.
I'm not seeing how your post is addressing the post you quoted? Unless you mean to post:
Personally, I wouldn't dream of reporting all the middle-aged women who who abuse their authority over me to extort inappropriate sexual dominance in the workplace.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2018, 04:16 AM   #2052
ThatGuy11200
New Blood
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm not seeing how your post is addressing the post you quoted? Unless you mean to post:
Personally, I wouldn't dream of reporting all the middle-aged women who who abuse their authority over me to extort inappropriate sexual dominance in the workplace.
I was replying to the second paragraph. Reasons men don't report that sort of thing.

Not that it would be taken as seriously as the other way round if I did report it. I already knew of that double standard years ago, when I was being sexually harrassed for three years by a girl in my class at school (~13-15 years old). I knew there was no point saying anything, and, when it did all come out, she didn't even get a detention.

That brings to mind another incident. One of my friends, in Year 11, having his shorts and underpants pulled down by a group of girls, and the female PE teacher laughing as it happened. I can't imagine that she'd have been laughing if it had been the other way round.
ThatGuy11200 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2018, 07:39 AM   #2053
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 4,593
Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Personally, I wouldn't dream of reporting all the middle-aged women who make innuendos, innapropriate comments and occasionally initiate a hug without my consent. Trying to destroy someone's life over something so small seems really petty.
If it doesn't make you feel intimidated or in fear for your job, why WOULD you report it?

If it does, you should, regardless of gender.

This is a controversial position?
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 12:04 AM   #2054
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 10,226
I found this podcast very interesting, and it relates (both directly as they talk about the #metoo movement, and in a general sense as the topic of gender, from the perspective of biology and as it relates to understanding culture, is pretty much what's under discussion): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYJFgyqs0sM

It's an episode of Joe Rogan's podcast in which he has Bret Weinstein & Heather Heying on. Bret Weinstein is the evolutionary biologist who was involved in that Evergreen University thing. I find him well spoken and very insightful, though of course your mileage may vary. Still, I thought people might be interested.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 05:47 AM   #2055
sphenisc
Illuminator
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,641
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
If it doesn't make you feel intimidated or in fear for your job, why WOULD you report it?

If it does, you should, regardless of gender.

This is a controversial position?
It's controversial in that some people prefer a universally applied standard of acceptable behaviour and wish to act to support that, independent of their own personal reactions to a given situation.
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen

Last edited by sphenisc; 23rd February 2018 at 06:28 AM.
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 06:10 AM   #2056
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,793
Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
It's controversial in that some people prefer a universally applied standard of acceptable behaviour and which to act to support that, independent of their own personal reactions to a given situation.
Ah, but what if "report things that give you reason to believe you're threatened" is the universally applied standard?

In the real world, where we're not all super rational autistic robots, fearing for your job and being intimidated are valid reasons. We don't require a trail of paperwork or a check of cortisol levels before we're allowed to report something.
Conversely, being obligated to report things you know are innocent to HR because the same phrase or gesture could be used in a menacing way in a different context is also nonsensical.

There's nothing wishy-washy about that.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 08:21 AM   #2057
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,897
There's plenty that's wishy washy about that.

"I thought she was into it! She should have reported it!"
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 11:06 AM   #2058
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,793
Sure, but I don't really see how that can be prevented without strictly enforced military style codes of conduct in every workplace.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 11:40 AM   #2059
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,897
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Sure, but I don't really see how that can be prevented without strictly enforced military style codes of conduct in every workplace.
You don't? The code of conduct is already in place, and it's not even "military style". Just basic "don't mix sex and work" type stuff.

And there's no need for strict enforcement. All that's required is that subordinates who don't mind a little unsolicited butt-grabbing from their superiors to take a moment to think, and then say, "even though I personally don't mind, this kind of behavior is going to be abusive in most cases, and unacceptable workplace behavior in all cases, please stop or I will have to report these incidents."

I'm not a big fan of privilege-based arguments in general, but this does seem to be one situation where the privileges of a few who don't mind, shouldn't cloud our judgement of the desirability of allowing the behavior.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 11:46 AM   #2060
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,793
Sounds reasonable.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 01:39 PM   #2061
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 14,203
Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
That brings to mind another incident. One of my friends, in Year 11, having his shorts and underpants pulled down by a group of girls, and the female PE teacher laughing as it happened. I can't imagine that she'd have been laughing if it had been the other way round.

There are still quite a number of double standards, inconsistent standards, and outright hypocrisies surrounding the issue of sexual harassment. Unfortunately, the responses to the #MeToo movement from both men and women so far haven't shown much evidence that is going to be changing anytime soon.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 03:28 PM   #2062
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 41,815
Jordan Peterson expressed it perfectly: We don't know what the rules of interaction between men and women are supposed to be, in order to set up a rulebook of what exactly are the do's and dont's of male to female interactions in the workplace.

Of course, a lot of people are convinced that they do know the rules and that we should just enforce whatever they think these rules are. That's a whole different thing.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 04:24 PM   #2063
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,897
GK Chesterton expressed it even more perfectly.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 04:42 PM   #2064
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 70,796
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
There are still quite a number of double standards, inconsistent standards, and outright hypocrisies surrounding the issue of sexual harassment.
Hmmm... you mean between men and women? Yeah. That's kind of unfortunate, but on the other hand, men and women react differently to these sorts of things, so it's at the very least expected, if not desirable.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 05:06 PM   #2065
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,417
Hypocrisy, double standards, "waffling" or other logical or moral inconsistency are (or at least can be) bad.

What they aren't is a get out of the argument with a win free card.

This whole "I found a member of side X who's a hypocrite therefore Side X is totally and completely proven false forever!" thing that has totally taken over internet arguments as the primary argumentative is a little out there for my taste.

I'm always a little... skeeved by what sins people think "Being a hypocrite" is a counter to.

Hypocrites or people with double standards don't deserve to be raped or assaulted.

Okay so you found someone from "the other side" who's a hypocrite. And? So? We go where from there? What just changed? How does that affect anything we're talking about or invalidate any part of the discussion outside of maybe, and only maybe, one person's perspective of it.
__________________
(Formally JoeBentley)

"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 23rd February 2018 at 05:08 PM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 05:13 PM   #2066
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 70,796
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This whole "I found a member of side X who's a hypocrite therefore Side X is totally and completely proven false forever!" thing that has totally taken over internet arguments as the primary argumentative is a little out there for my taste.
Yeah but I know you've been wrong before so I can safely ignore everything you say from now on.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2018, 07:01 PM   #2067
Graham2001
Graduate Poster
 
Graham2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,147
An interesting editorial from last year, posted without comment.

Quote:
The first thing that came to mind as the story of James Levine’s, and then Charles Dutoit’s, sexual peccadillos came to light over the past few weeks was, “We’re only hearing about this now?” The former, at least, was hardly news. Levine’s alleged behavior with young boys has been one of classical music’s biggest open secrets for decades. It follows equally raunchy, if perhaps less publicized, scandals by early music specialist Robert King, and Russian conductor/pianist Mikhail Pletnev, to name only a few. In the world of the performing arts, this sort of thing is hardly a story. Or let’s be clear: the behavior in question is not news. Getting caught and censored, punished even, is.


I suppose that few remember the saga of conductor Eugene Goossens (1893-1962), whose career was cut short in the mid-50s as a result of his affair with Rosaleen Norton, “The Witch of Kings Cross,” and the discovery of the pornographic letters he wrote to her (which she kept conveniently hidden behind her living room sofa). Or even earlier than that, there was Percy Grainger, whose anti-Semitism was only matched by his delightful addiction to flagellation and sadomasochistic sex. Oh yes, he was also in love with his mother. Charming. The stories go on and on. They come with the territory.
https://www.classicstoday.com/editor...ns-recordings/
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!"
'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail

Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...
Graham2001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 03:26 AM   #2068
pharphis
Graduate Poster
 
pharphis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,334
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, they apply to everyone, at all times, before it even gets to court. Due process begins the moment an accusation is made, and authorities begin their investigation. Presumption of innocence applies from the beginning of the investigation.



Zooooom.. and there go the goalposts.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k17rpz8lg0...osts.gif?raw=1

You said they were one-offs, not that they are rare by comparison. That is a whole different argument.

Annually, there are about 1000-1200 men every who are sexually assaulted by women in the USA. Its a small number compared with the 200,000+ women sexually assaulted by men BUT IT IS NOT AN INSIGNIFICANT NUMBER, nor is it "rare" or "just a one-off". Pretending that it is (as you were claiming) does a gross injustice to those men who have suffered the ignominy of such assaults.



See above



"Equally prevalent" is your strawman. I didn't claim that, and I never have.



I DID READ THEM, that I why I posted them, they supported my argument at that time. Your argument was that they are rare, one-offs. You have now pulled a switcheroo, and have revised your claim to "rare by comparison".



You must have an unlimited supply of straw. No-one, least of all me, is claiming this. You are lying; you made that up from whole cloth.



Well, at least you've actually swallowed some pride and admitted this. I guess that is the closest I'm ever going to get to a retraction.

PS: You aren't by any chance related to ponderturtle are you
Both of those numbers (especially the male) seem stupidly low. Aren't there like 300 million people there?
pharphis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:27 AM   #2069
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,565
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, they apply to everyone, at all times, before it even gets to court. Due process begins the moment an accusation is made, and authorities begin their investigation. Presumption of innocence applies from the beginning of the investigation.
I am fully confident that in all of the investigations actually started by any legal authorities as a result of #metoo disclosures (at this point in time, I can think of a grand total of one case that I am aware of - Kevin Spacey, who was accused by a man coincidentally), presumption of innocence by the relevant court system exists per standard procedure.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:18 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.