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Old 2nd April 2017, 07:07 AM   #921
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Scientists at CERN share their frustration in this paper about the fact that they cannot grasp dark matter and dark energy.

my opinion: as long as scientists deny the factor: 'the relativity of space', they will not understand dark matter and dark energy.
'The position of the observer' in the fields of gravity is a crucial factor for the observation of an amount of curved or expanded space.
The observation of curved spaces and expanded spaces are both phenomena of 'the relativity of space', caused by a certain position of an observer in the field of gravity.

The recognition of the existence of a lawful connection between a real physical observer and the observed object is needed in the scientific models.
The "recognition" of the "connection" is "in the scientific models". It's called , in SR terms a Lorentz transformation, in general terms just a coordinate transformation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_transformation

http://eagle.phys.utk.edu/guidry/ast...ure490_ch2.pdf

That it simply doesn't do what you would like it to do, support an observer created reality, is no ones' "frustration" but yours.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:30 PM   #922
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Scientists at CERN share their frustration in this paper about the fact that they cannot grasp dark matter and dark energy.
my opinion:
Scientists do not know about your 'the relativity of space' fantasy because it is an fantasy that you cannot turn into coherent science. It appears in this forum and maybe others, not anywhere a scientist would read about it.

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
The recognition of the existence of a lawful connection between a real physical observer and the observed object is needed in the scientific models.
That is an abysmally ignorant statement. All of theoretical and experimental physics from at least Galileo onward is about establishing "lawful connections" between a real physical observer and the observed object !

Dark matter is the empirical observations that real physical observers (astronomers ) cannot find enough visible matter to explain observed objects (stars, galaxies, galaxy clusters, the CMB spectrum, etc.).

Dark energy is the empirical observation that real physical observers (astronomers) detect that observed objects are receding away from us at a accelerated rate.

Last edited by Reality Check; 2nd April 2017 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 06:23 PM   #923
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Scientists at CERN share their frustration in this paper about the fact that they cannot grasp dark matter and dark energy.

my opinion: as long as scientists deny the factor: 'the relativity of space', they will not understand dark matter and dark energy.
'The position of the observer' in the fields of gravity is a crucial factor for the observation of an amount of curved or expanded space.
The observation of curved spaces and expanded spaces are both phenomena of 'the relativity of space', caused by a certain position of an observer in the field of gravity.

The recognition of the existence of a lawful connection between a real physical observer and the observed object is needed in the scientific models.

Maarten, what you linked to is not a paper but a paywall for an article. The author is a science writer, not a scientist. Please summarize the article for us, Maarten. I mean, you did pay the $18 US to download and read the article, didn't you? Please tell tell us how the article supports your claims above. I believe the MA allows you to post short quotes from the article.
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Last edited by ferd burfle; 2nd April 2017 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Request for quotes
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Old 2nd April 2017, 06:34 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
Maarten, what you linked to is not a paper but a paywall for an article. The author is a science writer, not a scientist. Please summarize the article for us, Maarten. I mean, you did pay the $18 US to download and read the article, didn't you? Please tell tell us how the article supports your claims above. I believe the MA allows you to post short quotes from the article.
He does that quite often.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:15 AM   #925
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I have a new hypothesis:

The connection between gravitational timedilation, weight, biological liferythm and life expectancy of organisms

The difference between atomic clocks on high altitude and low altitude due to gravitational timedilation may be very very small, the influence on the biology of animals and humans of graviational timedilation seem to be noticeable .

Why is the liferythm of an elephant so slow and the liferythm of a little bird so fast?
Why do little insects, like mosquito's and flies live short relative to the lifespan of whale?

Because of gravitational timedilation.

Why does your head looks older then your legs?

My testable hypothesis: deep sea animals live longer because of the weight of the water on them. Their old age is caused by gravitational timedilation.
http://deepseacreatures.org/interest...ving-creatures

Astronauts or animals in space will live shorter then animals and men on Earth. You can see the effect on their biology when they were in space.
Gravitational timedilation
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:21 AM   #926
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Did it even occur to you to look up the actual answers to your questions before coming up with, let alone posting, your own ridiculous explanation?
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:43 AM   #927
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Why is the liferythm of a massive animal slower then that of an insect f.e.?
You could say: because of the law of inertia.

But the underlying law of the law of inertia is gravitational timedilation because of the amount of mass.
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Old 5th April 2017, 03:50 AM   #928
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Some words...

Why does your head looks older then your legs?

More words...
You haven't seen my legs. I used to race motorcycles, and I still regularly fall off mountain bikes.

My legs are a bit scarred and battered. My face, on the other hand, is beautiful.

Your hypothosis fails.
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Old 5th April 2017, 04:03 AM   #929
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I have a new hypothesis:

The connection between gravitational timedilation, weight, biological liferythm and life expectancy of organisms

The difference between atomic clocks on high altitude and low altitude due to gravitational timedilation may be very very small, the influence on the biology of animals and humans of graviational timedilation seem to be noticeable .

Why is the liferythm of an elephant so slow and the liferythm of a little bird so fast?
Why do little insects, like mosquito's and flies live short relative to the lifespan of whale?

Because of gravitational timedilation.

Why does your head looks older then your legs?

My testable hypothesis: deep sea animals live longer because of the weight of the water on them. Their old age is caused by gravitational timedilation.
http://deepseacreatures.org/interest...ving-creatures

Astronauts or animals in space will live shorter then animals and men on Earth. You can see the effect on their biology when they were in space.
Gravitational timedilation
Life span of the macaw parrot. 30-40 (up to 60) years.
Life span of the european mole. 3-6 years.
Life span of shrimp. 1,5 - 3 years.
Life span of giant squid. Not known exactly but thought to be about 5 years.

I think your 'hypothesis' needs some more work.
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Old 5th April 2017, 04:30 AM   #930
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This is all anecdotical evidence (about your own legs etc.).

You need to investigate the relationship between the variable 'gravitational timedilation' and the variables life expectancy, liferytm (inertia) and mass in laboratory conditions (excluding all other influencing variables).
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 5th April 2017 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 5th April 2017, 04:31 AM   #931
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Other theory:

The underlying law of the law of inertia (the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion) is the curvature of the spacetime around an object caused by the amount of mass of this object.

The resistance to change is due to gravitational timedilation.
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 5th April 2017 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 5th April 2017, 04:42 AM   #932
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I have a new hypothesis:

You haven't responded to any questions or comments on your last "idea". Why is that, Maarten?

Quote:
My testable hypothesis: deep sea animals live longer because of the weight of the water on them. Their old age is caused by gravitational timedilation.

Psssst-hey Maarten. The force of gravity is less on an organism deep in the ocean. The mass of water above the organism creates pressure, not gravity. You're welcome.
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Old 5th April 2017, 04:56 AM   #933
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Why do little insects, like mosquito's and flies live short relative to the lifespan of whale?
Because of gravitational timedilation.
Quote:
Why does your head looks older thean your legs?

Because they have regular access to lemon juice, unlike whales and legs. As confirmed by McArthur Wheeler.
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Old 5th April 2017, 07:44 AM   #934
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Martenn, if the difference between one's top and bottom ends were significant, then it would also mean that there would be a measurable difference between those who live on upper floors of buildings and those who live on lower, between those who live on hills and those who live in valleys. If a difference of five or six feet were measurably important, those who sleep iin upper bunks would look older and die sooner than those who sleep in lower. And on and on. The more you think about this, the stupider it gets.
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Old 5th April 2017, 07:54 AM   #935
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Other theory:

The underlying law of the law of inertia (the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion) is the curvature of the spacetime around an object caused by the amount of mass of this object.

The resistance to change is due to gravitational timedilation.
The relation between inertial and gravitational mass in general relativity is called the Equivalence Principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle

It certainly isn't, nor can it be, limited to just the result of "gravitational timedilation".

I concur with previous admonishments that you at least try investigating your speculations before posting them.
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Old 5th April 2017, 07:59 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Why is the liferythm of a massive animal slower then that of an insect f.e.?
You could say: because of the law of inertia.

But the underlying law of the law of inertia is gravitational timedilation because of the amount of mass.
You could, but it would be wrong
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Old 5th April 2017, 10:17 AM   #937
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Did it even occur to you to look up the actual answers to your questions before coming up with, let alone posting, your own ridiculous explanation?
To be fair, this new hypothesis is even more fanciful than usual.

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You need to investigate the relationship between the variable 'gravitational timedilation' and the variables life expectancy, liferytm (inertia) and mass in laboratory conditions (excluding all other influencing variables).
No, Maartenn100, you need to do the investigation.

Otherwise someone else will win the Nobel Prize that should rightly go to the discoverer of this phenomenon, if phenomenon it be.
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Old 5th April 2017, 11:12 AM   #938
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Other theory:

The underlying law of the law of inertia (the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion) is the curvature of the spacetime around an object caused by the amount of mass of this object.

The resistance to change is due to gravitational timedilation.
NO!!!!! Really, NO!!!!!!!! Please feel free to contemplate and absorb this message!
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Old 5th April 2017, 02:24 PM   #939
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Other theory: ...
A more valid theory: Ignorance of science leads to incoherent word salad !
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Old 5th April 2017, 02:36 PM   #940
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I have a new hypothesis:
Actually: Ignorance leads to an ignorant idea of "connection between gravitational timedilation, weight, biological liferythm and life expectancy of organisms"

Gravitational time dilation in GPS satellites is very small(45 microseconds per day) and has no measurable effect on the biology of animals and humans.

Did you actually read Longest Living Sea Creatures? The first "deep sea creature " is the land living Galapagos Tortoise !
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:42 AM   #941
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Hello, I completed my theory about 'the relativity of space'. My English is not so good, but I try to explain it short and as clear as possible:

A theory to explain the phenomenon of dark matter and dark energy differently

The relativity of space in the gravitational fields

In this thesis I will show you another theory to explain the same scientific observations differently. I will use well-defined scientific terms and strict logical deduction to derive my conclusions. It’s up to you, of course, to validate this new explanation.


In the following picture you see three different observations of our planet Earth
from three observation positions in space:



The first picture in the top left corner is from a perspective above Earth. When you escaped gravity on Earth with a rocket or spaceship, you can observe that the Earth’s rotation around its own axis happens in 24 hours in respect to your position.
If you are escaping the gravitaty of the sun, in respect to the sun, you can tell that the Earth is not only rotating around its own axis in 24 hours, but it is also rotating around the sun at the same time.
So in 24 hours, on your clock, you see that the Earth is also making a circular motion around the sun, while it’s turning around its own axis, in respect to your new position outside the solar system.

In the picture on the right, in respect to a position outside the Milkey Way, you can see that Earth is not only moving around the sun while turning around its axis, but also making a motion in the Milkey Way in 24 hours in respect to an observer who is leaving the Milkey Way. Earth is making a spiral motion in 24 hours, on your clock, if you observer Earth from an observation position outside the solar system.

We can conclude that different positions of the observer in the gravitational fields, relative to this ‘object’ Earth, will give the observer a different observation of motion of this Earth through space in 24 h.

We can ask ourselves these questions:

Is Earth moving faster, when seen from outside the Solar system or from outside the Milkey Way in 24h?
Is time contracted/dilated?
Is space shrinked?

Answer: this is referenceframe dependent.


Scientifically we know that ‘gravitational timecontraction’ of the clock of the observer is happening while an observer escapes the gravtiational fields. (general theory of relativity)

To the observers of the second and third picture, the observed space of the solarsystem is shrinked, in my opinion. Because to them, there is nothing wrong with their clock in their spaceship, outside the solarsystem. And the Earth must turn around its axis in 24 hours.

The Earth makes more moves through space in 24 h, so Earth and space must be observed as been shrinked. Because we experience our time interval of one second everywhere equally.

So, the observed curvature of spacetime of the solar system, depends on the reference frame of the observers.
You can see the resemblance with the special theory of relativity: the observers in a spaceship, close to the speed of light relative to Earth, in the special theory of relativity of Einstein, will see that Earth is shrinking and the space in front of them is shrinking. But, the spaceship shrinks according to the observers on Earth.

Be aware that this contraction of space is not only a relativistic contraction of the space in between the massive bodies, when we leave a gravitational field of a body and observe it from there. Also the observed massive bodies are shrinked, relative to our new postions. Because the Earth must rotate around its axis in 24h, while at the same time, it must rotate in a spiral motion in the Milkey Way in this 24h. It means that the circumference of the Earth must be observed as being shorter.

This is ‘the relativity of space’. Not only time is relative, but the observed space is also relative. We are used to think in terms of relativity of time, by comparing atomic clocks on high altitude and on low altitude. But we are not so familiar with the relativity of space. But both are relative.

The basic reason for these relativistic observations of space is that observers measure the same time interval, wherever they are, therefore they must observe shrinking or expanding spaces in the other field of gravity.



Dark matter and dark energy

In my opinion, the observed space curvature of an observed galaxy in space, socalled caused by dark matter, could be an observation of a relativistic spaceshrink, observed by observers outside that galaxy.
Because the clock of the observers will always have a the same speed to themselves, therefore, the observed spaces will be observed as shrinked elsewhere, wherever the observer is.

The other way around

But what happens when we are in a gravitational field and we observe the night sky, outside of our gravitational fields?
We must observe a progressive space stretch between us and objects far away from our galaxy. An expansion of space, further away from us. And indeed: we observe redshifting galaxies far away from us. Hubble’s law. Expanding space.


Conclusion

In my opinion, the ‘missing mass’-problem can be solved with the interpretation of ‘a relativistic spaceshrink’ of the space in the observed galaxies. (see picture with different observer’s positions).

And to the observers inside a gravitational field, the observed space outside their field must be observed as ‘expanding space’.


The reason is that observers measure the same time interval, wherever they are, therefore they must observe shrinking or expanding spaces somewhere else.

That’s the basis of my theory and it is confirmed by observation (see picture above) and in line with the idea of the theory of the relativity of time and space. (Einstein).

Dark matter and dark energy are not needed anymore to explain the missing mass or the expanding space. In both cases it’s a matter of ‘the relativity of space’. A matter of relativistic observations of space.

Not only the space between the observed massive bodies becomes shorter, the observed massive bodies also shrink.

We are used to think in terms of relativity of time, by comparing atomic clocks on high altitude and on low altitude or in planes and clocks standing on the ground. But we are not so familiar with observations which let see the relativity of space in experiments. But both, time AND space are relative.
So, we must also observe relativistic space distortions when we observe the night sky, like the observers of the spaceship at very high speeds, close to the speed of light, in Einstein’s special theory of relativity.

Maarten Vergucht
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 20th April 2017 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:02 AM   #942
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100
Be aware of the fact: I'm a philosopher. I don't do science or math.
I was thinking about space and time from an observer's perspective: a phenomenological viewpoint of time and space. How do we, observers, see space and time. So, don't ask the math or the physics.


more and more aware you don't do science nor math
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:04 AM   #943
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I know that my English is not so good, but you understand the basic idea, don't you?

The more you escape Earth's gravity and the gravity of the Solar System and the Milkey Way, the more the observed massive objects and the space around it will shrink, relative to your new observer's position. Because the massive objects must travel through more space in the same amount of time, relative to your new position.

(see picture above)
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 20th April 2017 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:17 AM   #944
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
...the Earth is not only rotating around its own axis in 24 hours, but it is also rotating around the sun at the same time.
So in 24 8766,15264 hours, on your clock, you see that the Earth is also making a circular motion around the sun, while it’s turning around its own axis, in respect to your new position outside the solar system...
FTFY

A hint, the above is called sidereal year.
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:31 AM   #945
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I'm not saying that the Earth orbits the sun and itself in 24h.

I say that, relative to you, the Earth is moving more and more through space while turning around its axis, relative to your new position, while you are escaping Earth's gravity and while you are escaping the gravity of the Solar System.

So the observed space and the observed Earth must shrink, relative to you, because Earth will progressively have to travel through more space in 24h, relative to your new observation position.
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 20th April 2017 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:11 AM   #946
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Or space shrinks, relative to you
or the objects go faster, relative to you, while escaping gravity.
(which can explain the 'missing mass' observations)
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 20th April 2017 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:42 AM   #947
wea
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Maarten, back to the basic. How do you measure length?
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:13 AM   #948
Maartenn100
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measured length/distance is relative
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:32 AM   #949
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Maartenn100,

First of all- welcome back to the ISF after one of your now standard, periodic month(s) long absences, after each of which you post some scientific finding which you misinterpret as supporting your own pet theory. I hope the month of March found you well?

The Nature article you posted describes how scientists still do not understand dark matter (no surprise) and are considering various possible explanations for it. To do so they are comparing what each theory would suggest with the actual data and observations that have been made. Theories that don't match the observations are discarded or modified. New theories are considered based on new observations. This is the way science works.

And here is the contraction with your approach- you are proposing a theory that doesn't fit the known observations at all. It doesn't even fit into our basic knowledge of physics. It is not even physics. In fact it contradicts much of what we do know.

Bottom line- one cannot explain something that is as-of-yet unexplained by proposing something that is just plain wrong.
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:44 AM   #950
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
measured length/distance is relative
You are the one who's saying "travel through more space", "observed space must shrink" etc. You need an operational definition of this quantity (distance) to rank it as shrunk or dilated. Your observer is stationary with respect to the earth orbit segment and his prototype metre (bar, wavelength, whatever) would be put along the same orbit segment to measure it. Think about it.

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
It’s up to you, of course, to validate this new explanation.
Not at all. It's been verified empirically that a clock (e.g. oscillator) is subject to gravitational time dilation, and the length contraction of objects measured by observers moving relative to them. Instead, the fairy tales you fabricate mean nothing until you think of a way to verify them. Operational definitions for the quantities you use, otherwise they are void words. This has been already said hundreds of times by the other posters, by the way

Last edited by wea; 20th April 2017 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:06 PM   #951
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Hello, I completed my theory about 'the relativity of space'. My English is not so good, but I try to explain it short and as clear as possible: ...
Even with bad English, an ignorant and incoherent post is not a theory of anything, Maartenn100.

In special relativity, things do not "shrink" - in English that means that all dimensions get smaller, e.g. the width, height and depth of a box get smaller. In SR the length in the direction the object is moving contracts. An objects is squeezed not shrunk. The usual example is a rocket. External observers measure that the rocket has a shorter length than when it was at rest. The rocket has the same width and the same depth.
In general relativity, spacetime curves due to mass, etc. and SR also applies.

You make up an imaginary 'relativistic spaceshrink’ and fantasize about what it will do.
You display ignorance about the observational evidence for dark matter.
You display ignorance about dark energy (the acceleration of the expansion of the universe).

Last edited by Reality Check; 20th April 2017 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 21st April 2017, 12:53 AM   #952
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I know that my English is not so good, but you understand the basic idea, don't you?

The more you escape Earth's gravity and the gravity of the Solar System and the Milkey Way, the more the observed massive objects and the space around it will shrink, relative to your new observer's position. Because the massive objects must travel through more space in the same amount of time, relative to your new position.

(see picture above)

"OK, one last time. These are small, but the ones out there are far away. Small...far away..." - Father Ted Crilly.
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Old 21st April 2017, 12:58 AM   #953
Porpoise of Life
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Or space shrinks, relative to you
or the objects go faster, relative to you, while escaping gravity.
(which can explain the 'missing mass' observations)
Do you believe that people standing farther away are actually dwarfs, who grow when they get closer to you?
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Old 21st April 2017, 04:09 AM   #954
Maartenn100
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Do you believe in free will? Or do you think that Sam Harris is right: there is no free will.
in that case, I do not have the free will to write these posts here.

If you believe in free will (it seems like you do), then you believe in the super-natural.

Because if someone has a free will, he stands 'above' the laws of nature. Nature, however, seemed to be governed by mathematical laws.

You, as a human being with free will can interrupt these mathematical laws of physics all around you by your free will. You are super natural.

If you do not believe in the super-natural/free will (Sam Harris), then I do not have the free will to write these theories here!
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 21st April 2017 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 21st April 2017, 04:38 AM   #955
ferd burfle
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I do not have the free will to write these posts here. If you believe in my free will (it seems like you do), dan you believe in the super-natural. Because if someone has a free will, he stands 'above' the laws of nature. Because nature seemed to be governed by mathematical laws. You, as a human being with free will interrupt these lawful connection between cause and effect all around you by your free will. Or, you do not believe in the super-natural/free will? Then I do not have the free will to write these theories here!

Maarten, it seems your personal binary neutron stars of scientific and philosophical thinking, which have circling each other for years, have finally merged and formed a black hole. What in tarnation are you trying to say?






ETA: Maarten, as is his wont, has edited his post. My quote is his original text.
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Old 21st April 2017, 04:42 AM   #956
Porpoise of Life
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I do not have the free will to write these posts here. If you believe in my free will (it seems like you do), dan you believe in the super-natural. Because if someone has a free will, he stands 'above' the laws of nature. Nature, however, seemed to be governed by mathematical laws. You, as a human being with free will interrupts these lawful connection between cause and effect all around you by your free will. Or, you do not believe in the super-natural/free will? Then I do not have the free will to write these theories here!
Ignoring all the questions and trying another 'gotcha'? Not unexpected.
Just try to honestly engage for once, instead of moving on to the next 'clever' thing when you find out that you can't browbeat people into agreeing with you.

But, to humor you:
What we call free will is still beholden to certain natural laws. You can't will yourself into flying, and though you can withstand hunger with the power of your will, you'd still starve if you's stop eating altogether. You can stay awake for a lonjg time on willpower alone, but eventually you'll either fall asleep or die.
Whether our conscious minds are completely deterministic or not is not known, but the fact that we have (or perhaps just experience) a certain range of choice in our thoughts and actions does not require a supernatural explanation.
What specifically about being able to learn and choose breaks the laws of physics according to you?
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Old 21st April 2017, 04:47 AM   #957
Maartenn100
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My point is, that to Sam Harris and many other atheists and sceptics, I do not have the free will to post these theories on the forum here. Simple as that.

If you believe, however, in (my) free will (to post these theories on the forum), then you believe that our behavior is super-natural. It means that we are not governed by mathematical laws of nature. That we can interrupt the mathematical laws of this universe.
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 21st April 2017 at 04:49 AM.
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Old 21st April 2017, 04:51 AM   #958
Porpoise of Life
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
My point is, that to Sam Harris and many other atheists and sceptics, I do not have the free will to post these theories on the forum here. Simple as that.

If you believe, however, in (my) free will (to post these theories on the forum), then you believe that our behavior is super-natural. It means that we are not governed by mathematical laws of nature. That we can interrupt the mathematical laws of this universe.
Come on... you admit you're not even trying to make a point, you just want to misrepresent someone's position so you can call skeptics names?
Why, were you disappointed that people were asking for your calculations when you started to pontificate on the laws of physics? Again?

Read my question again: What about being able to choose within the narrow range of possibilities open to the human organism breaks the laws of physics?
Your assertion is not an argument.
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Old 21st April 2017, 05:07 AM   #959
Maartenn100
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There is some symmetry in this thought. It's like an equation. If something changes on one side of the equation, there must change something on the other side.

If an observer in a spaceship A close to the speed of light, relative to Earth and relative to spaceship B, doesn't measure any change in his own spaceship, he must observe/measure a deformation of space elsewhere.

And he does observe this change elsewhere: he observes a spacecontraction of Earth and a lengthcontraction of the other spaceship B and a contraction of space in front of his spaceship in the direction of motion.

And you can ask yourself: why is that?
And the reason must be:

His observation of the time interval of his own clock is not changed. He has a 'normal' experience of time. The laws of newton work fine, wherever he is, in his spaceship.

Therefore, the observed deformation of space must be seen somewhere else (Earth is contracting, there is a lengthcontraction of the other spaceship f.e.)


Observers on Earth measure that there is nothing wrong with their clock too.
But time is contracted, by gravitational timedilation.

Because of the fact that observers on Earth measure a normal time rate passage, they must observe deformations of space elsewhere. They observe motions of galaxies obeying Hubble's Law.

It's like an equation. When one thing happens on one side of the equation, something else must happen on the other side of the equation to make it right.

When you have a normal experience of time, wherever you are, you will observe deformations of space somewhere else.

There is some symmetry here.
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

Last edited by Maartenn100; 21st April 2017 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 21st April 2017, 05:28 AM   #960
Mojo
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
My point is, that to Sam Harris and many other atheists and sceptics, I do not have the free will to post these theories on the forum here. Simple as that.

You don't have the free will to not post them here. If you had free will you would be able to restrain yourself.
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