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Old 21st April 2017, 01:42 AM   #3401
Cosmic Yak
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And then you can answer my question.
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:47 AM   #3402
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And you question was?
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
...
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh golly, happy to!

It was a comment directed to nova's comment (which I have thoughtfully quoted above) that caused mush misplaced rejoicing despite the fact that it was blatantly and egregiously wrong.

I also just noted that he called Hitchens a great thinker, which: LOLZ!

He might have been a great drinker, he might have been a good pound on the table style polemicist, but thinker? it is to laugh.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And then you can answer my question.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:16 AM   #3403
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
And then you can answer my question.
Apparently, he cannot.
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Old 21st April 2017, 08:29 PM   #3404
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Apparently, he cannot.

No certainly he cannot so as I said before:

Quote:
How many ways can we dodge a question?

Let me count the ways ...............

We all know how weak these responses are. The pretended laughter, the pretended sorrow, the pretended lack of comprehension, the pretended exultation whilst pretending a victory has been won, the pretended ........... and so it goes on.

But we are not fooled because it is obvious to the rest of us here that real answers are not forthcoming because quite simply "He cannot".
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:04 PM   #3405
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We all know, we are not fooled.

Oh mercy!
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:33 PM   #3406
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Here is an effect of atheism: It allows me a third party perspective on theists.

As an outsider, I am invited to view theism and religious dogma as a social construct and seek explanations in terms of psychology and social science instead of "authored by God." Atheism permits me to use the tools of rationality and avoid the "answers by way of authority" the religious are prone to.

I think this is why atheism and skepticism are such good partners. If you are embedded in a culture where God belief is popular, it takes some effort to overcome the "go along to get along" recipe and this mechanism is useful in other areas as well.

The wishful thinking on offer from the theist eventually becomes repugnant and the god-of-the-gaps answers extremely unsatisfactory.
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Old Yesterday, 12:50 AM   #3407
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Apparently, he cannot.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
No certainly he cannot so as I said before:




We all know how weak these responses are. The pretended laughter, the pretended sorrow, the pretended lack of comprehension, the pretended exultation whilst pretending a victory has been won, the pretended ........... and so it goes on.

But we are not fooled because it is obvious to the rest of us here that real answers are not forthcoming because quite simply "He cannot".
Well, at least I tried.
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Old Yesterday, 04:47 AM   #3408
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well, at least I tried.
We've all tried it a hundred times.

Last edited by David Mo; Yesterday at 04:56 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 06:48 AM   #3409
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
We've all tried it a hundred times.
It's a shame because- and I'm ready for the howls of outrage as well as some gloating from TBD- that The Big Dog does actually have a point with regard to gosatheizm.
Let me explain what I mean. It is a fact that religious groups were persecuted and suppressed in Stalin-era Russia. There were several reasons for this, but I don't think it can be denied that atheism had a part to play in that. Had the communists not been atheist, there would have been no state policy of atheism.

Now, does that mean I believe that persecution of religious believers is an effect of atheism per se? No, because there is nothing inherent in atheism to lead to the suppression of religious beliefs. This kind of behaviour is much more common among the religious, who spend a lot of time and effort trying to obliterate both atheists and those of different beliefs.
It is also not a result of communism per se. China is also a communist (officially socialist, but let's not split hairs) country, yet the treatment of religions is quite different from Russia under Stalin. Roman Catholicism is illegal, but that is because the Chinese authorities dislike the fact that Catholics owe their alliegance to the Pope, and not to the Chinese state. It is not illegal because it is a religion, and in fact there is an official Chinese Christian church. The treatment of Muslims is also telling. In Xinjiang, the ethnic Uighurs are enduring some pretty brutal oppression: men cannot grow long beards, women cannot be veiled, they cannot fast during Ramadan, and any disobedience is met with beatings (I have witnessed one such) and imprisonment. They cannot get passports until they are 40, so they are also prevented from doing the haj until middle age. The Uighurs are ethnically distinct from the Han Chinese, and the reason for this oppression is political not religious. This can easliy be proven by looking at the contrast with Hui Muslims. This group is ethnically Chinese, and they endure none of the rough treatment of their Uighur co-religionists.
To return to Russia, I am of the opinion that the persecution and suppression of religion was not the result of atheism per se, nor of communism per se, but a consequence of a perfect storm of atheism, communism and an especially brutal dictator. That said, I think it impossible to deny that atheism had a role in this.
The shame of it is the TBD's approach- the refusal to answer points and questions, the mockery, the faked emotions et al- has created such a wall of antipathy that any halfway decent point he makes is tainted by the rest of his arguments. Were he not quite so confrontational, scornful and shifty, it would help his case no end.
TDB: how about it? If you really want to make some headway here, how about a change of approach? It's obviously not my place to tell you how to conduct your forum business, but it might be better all round if you at least thought about it.
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM   #3410
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It's a shame because- and I'm ready for the howls of outrage as well as some gloating from TBD- that The Big Dog does actually have a point with regard to gosatheizm.
Let me explain what I mean. It is a fact that religious groups were persecuted and suppressed in Stalin-era Russia. There were several reasons for this, but I don't think it can be denied that atheism had a part to play in that. Had the communists not been atheist, there would have been no state policy of atheism.

Now, does that mean I believe that persecution of religious believers is an effect of atheism per se? No, because there is nothing inherent in atheism to lead to the suppression of religious beliefs. This kind of behaviour is much more common among the religious, who spend a lot of time and effort trying to obliterate both atheists and those of different beliefs.
It is also not a result of communism per se. China is also a communist (officially socialist, but let's not split hairs) country, yet the treatment of religions is quite different from Russia under Stalin. Roman Catholicism is illegal, but that is because the Chinese authorities dislike the fact that Catholics owe their alliegance to the Pope, and not to the Chinese state. It is not illegal because it is a religion, and in fact there is an official Chinese Christian church. The treatment of Muslims is also telling. In Xinjiang, the ethnic Uighurs are enduring some pretty brutal oppression: men cannot grow long beards, women cannot be veiled, they cannot fast during Ramadan, and any disobedience is met with beatings (I have witnessed one such) and imprisonment. They cannot get passports until they are 40, so they are also prevented from doing the haj until middle age. The Uighurs are ethnically distinct from the Han Chinese, and the reason for this oppression is political not religious. This can easliy be proven by looking at the contrast with Hui Muslims. This group is ethnically Chinese, and they endure none of the rough treatment of their Uighur co-religionists.
To return to Russia, I am of the opinion that the persecution and suppression of religion was not the result of atheism per se, nor of communism per se, but a consequence of a perfect storm of atheism, communism and an especially brutal dictator. That said, I think it impossible to deny that atheism had a role in this.
The shame of it is the TBD's approach- the refusal to answer points and questions, the mockery, the faked emotions et al- has created such a wall of antipathy that any halfway decent point he makes is tainted by the rest of his arguments. Were he not quite so confrontational, scornful and shifty, it would help his case no end.
TDB: how about it? If you really want to make some headway here, how about a change of approach? It's obviously not my place to tell you how to conduct your forum business, but it might be better all round if you at least thought about it.
Respectfully.... no. You did not make the case. There is no half-way decent point, either. What is being backdoored here is the idea that atheism equates to lack of moral behavior, which then backdoors that the only moral truths possible are ones from divine sources. All unsupported, all slanderous.
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Old Yesterday, 07:21 AM   #3411
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Well, at least I tried.
I answered your question, marplots quoted it and I answered it.

As far as a change of my approach?

Curious that you think the person advocating a minority viewpoint should conform.
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Old Yesterday, 08:20 AM   #3412
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It's a shame because- and I'm ready for the howls of outrage as well as some gloating from TBD- that The Big Dog does actually have a point with regard to gosatheizm.
Let me explain what I mean. It is a fact that religious groups were persecuted and suppressed in Stalin-era Russia. There were several reasons for this, but I don't think it can be denied that atheism had a part to play in that. Had the communists not been atheist, there would have been no state policy of atheism.
Marxism is a materialist and scientificist ideology. This entails atheism as a corollary of its materialism. Therefore, Marxism is atheist in the same way that it is anti-idealist or anti-metaphysics. Atheism is not the main issue of Marxism. Class struggle, state socialism or the revolution against bourgeoisie are dominant points. Therefore, before Stalin, the soviet Marxism followed Engels that thought that religion would disappear in the socialist society without special attention. What needed atheism to overcome theism or any other idelalism were secularist measures, like the separation between church and state, collectivization of the private property and materialist propaganda ("Diamat").

Only one of these has any link to atheism: the propaganda and progressive conversion of Dialectical Materialism (“Diamat”) in an official dogma. It is obvious that Diamat was not the responsible of the repression before, during and after Stalin. The repression (including Gulag) was the outcome of the evolution of the Soviet State towards totalitarianism. This repression was directed against opponents and dissidents without regard to whether they were atheists or theists. The same laws were directed against Buddhist temples and kulaks, Trotskyists and priests, left-wingers and right-wingers, etc. All were for the state “counter-revolutionary agents”.

Hence, that the relation between Sate and churches is very different in different Marxist ‒or alleged Marxist‒ states. Stalin made almost impossible the existence of the churches, China has a more relative tolerance toward some of them, North Korea has a national religion and Cuba never banned the Catholic religion that has an important cult.

To say that theism was the responsible of the Soviet Gulag is nonsensical. An absurd that the Big Dog repeats without any justification while he refuses to answer to the requests for explanation over and over. It is his slogan and he goes not further.
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Old Yesterday, 01:54 PM   #3413
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
We all know, we are not fooled.

Oh mercy!

And the pretended cry of pain!
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Old Today, 06:16 AM   #3414
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I answered your question, marplots quoted it and I answered it.
Do please highlight which of the three dots in marplots' post contains the answer to my question.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
As far as a change of my approach?

Curious that you think the person advocating a minority viewpoint should conform.
Blatant strawman.
Is this an example of the Christian love you keep talking about, when you take the proffered olive branch and beat someone around the head with it?
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Old Today, 07:08 AM   #3415
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Do please highlight which of the three dots in marplots' post contains the answer to my question.

Blatant strawman.
Is this an example of the Christian love you keep talking about, when you take the proffered olive branch and beat someone around the head with it?
Blatant misrepresentation of my post, and extraordinary hyperbole.

Thanks for not wasting my valuable time any further
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Old Today, 08:23 AM   #3416
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
And the pretended cry of pain!
Pretend?! The man is clearly in anguish. We need a couch subforum for fainters.
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Old Today, 03:11 PM   #3417
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Pretend?! The man is clearly in anguish. We need a couch subforum for fainters.
Fainting couches are soooo 19th Century.
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Old Today, 04:28 PM   #3418
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Blatant misrepresentation of my post, and extraordinary hyperbole.

Thanks for not wasting my valuable time any further
I realize that this will be a yellow card, and doomed to AAH, but I have to say it.

TBD, no one takes you seriously. Whenever someone gives you a serious question, you either move the goalposts, or do the "oh dear, I am so smart, no one got my point" without context.

You avoid real arguments continually.
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