EM Drive still chugging on...

dlorde · 28th July 2015, 07:59 AM

Did anyone notice this yesterday: German scientists confirm NASA results of propellantless 'impossible' EM drive.

One begins to wonder what is the error they are all making, or, if it's not an experimental error, how to account for this effect within the current framework...

Dancing David · 28th July 2015, 08:02 AM

The source is Hacked Magazine, I wonder what sort of journal that is.

Here may be tehs ource
http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2015-4083

Behind paywall

Aepervius · 28th July 2015, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by dlorde

Did anyone notice this yesterday: German scientists confirm NASA results of propellantless 'impossible' EM drive.

One begins to wonder what is the error they are all making, or, if it's not an experimental error, how to account for this effect within the current framework...

They confirmed nothing. they just confirmed they attempted and thought to have eliminated some source of error. Their conclusion make it clear.

Beelzebuddy · 28th July 2015, 09:19 AM

But they replicated the thrust with an independent setup, which is a big step in itself. Even if the thrust results from an error in controls, it's the same error. This isn't Rossi's e-cat, which only works for the inventor and when no one else is looking.

phunk · 28th July 2015, 09:25 AM

But they admitted they were lacking in some areas, like magnetic shielding, which seems like a potential problem when the apparatus is inside a steel chamber and setup right next to the wall.

Beelzebuddy · 28th July 2015, 09:37 AM

The original setup wasn't magnetically shielded either, was it?

jadebox · 28th July 2015, 03:20 PM

Most of the articles I've seen online fail to note that the study concludes by saying that their results neither confirm or refute the device claims.

-- Roger

Trebuchet · 28th July 2015, 05:17 PM

They need to talk Elon Musk into giving them a free rocket ride and try out the device in space. If it accelerates, it works.

rjh01 · 28th July 2015, 11:16 PM

There should be an object launched into orbit that then uses this drive. See if the orbit increases. If it does then it works, otherwise it probably does not work.

RussDill · 29th July 2015, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

There should be an object launched into orbit that then uses this drive. See if the orbit increases. If it does then it works, otherwise it probably does not work.

You still need to control for effects. Things like emitted heat and interactions with magnetic and electrical fields that exist around the earth could easily overpower the reported thrust of the device.

Magico07 · 31st July 2015, 04:29 PM

This is about the best article I've seen on the EM drive - certainly, better researched than many of them.

http://www.science20.com/robert_inve...mmunity-156719

rjh01 · 3rd August 2015, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by RussDill

You still need to control for effects. Things like emitted heat and interactions with magnetic and electrical fields that exist around the earth could easily overpower the reported thrust of the device.

If all it could do is go from low to high orbit via any means without using a lot of energy then it would be worth doing. Who cares how it works as long as it performs a useful job.

I think we should be looking for significant effects. We know that satellites that are launched into low orbit will have their orbit decay due to atmospheric friction. If this one goes into a higher orbit it would be the first one to do so without rockets. It would then be worth spending big $ on this technology.

Reality Check · 3rd August 2015, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Here may be tehs ource
http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2015-4083

Which reveals that this is a conference paper - not a published paper in a peer reviewed journal. The authors are professor Martin Tajmar and a MSc graduate at the Dresden University of Technology.

RussDill · 3rd August 2015, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

If all it could do is go from low to high orbit via any means without using a lot of energy then it would be worth doing. Who cares how it works as long as it performs a useful job.

I think we should be looking for significant effects. We know that satellites that are launched into low orbit will have their orbit decay due to atmospheric friction. If this one goes into a higher orbit it would be the first one to do so without rockets. It would then be worth spending big $ on this technology.

Note that the EM drive has nothing to do with the amount of energy used. It is monumentally inefficient. The interesting claim is that it does not use reaction mass.

As far as going into a higher orbit without using reaction mass (thrusters, ion drive, etc), there are methods already available. In LEO, there is a magnetic field that can be used for propulsion or to generate energy.

Additionally, there are both solar sails and magnetic sails (a tether is a type of magnetic sail).

However, these methods require additional mass to be brought on board (such as a tether). It ends up being easier just to include reaction mass instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacec..._reaction_mass

3point14 · 15th April 2016, 02:40 AM

There is some talk that peer review is imminent.

This seems the most accurate, current report.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/spac...-it-wont-pass/

tsig · 15th April 2016, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

There is some talk that peer review is imminent.

This seems the most accurate, current report.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/spac...-it-wont-pass/

From the comments:

The ElectroMagnetic Drive uses Eletromagnetic Quantum Fluctuations to push "Space, or Dark Energy" away from itself, and in doing so, the Drive "Falls" into the Desired Direction!

Its that simple! ..

There you have it The EQF's push the DE making the drive fall. simples

mike3 · 20th April 2016, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by RussDill

Note that the EM drive has nothing to do with the amount of energy used. It is monumentally inefficient. The interesting claim is that it does not use reaction mass.

As far as going into a higher orbit without using reaction mass (thrusters, ion drive, etc), there are methods already available. In LEO, there is a magnetic field that can be used for propulsion or to generate energy.

Additionally, there are both solar sails and magnetic sails (a tether is a type of magnetic sail).

However, these methods require additional mass to be brought on board (such as a tether). It ends up being easier just to include reaction mass instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacec..._reaction_mass

Yes, but if the device were a) proved to have a valid thrust effect by a space test and then b) the source of the effect were found, then c) you can probably improve upon it to make it better.

3point14 · 3rd June 2016, 11:23 AM

For those like me who really hope this is something that works (which, for those who are about to jump down my throat, doesn't mean I think it will, I just hope it will) someone has a theory:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...rive-thruster/

BenBurch · 4th June 2016, 05:06 PM

A space drive would certainly be a nice thing to have.

TubbaBlubba · 4th June 2016, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

For those like me who really hope this is something that works (which, for those who are about to jump down my throat, doesn't mean I think it will, I just hope it will) someone has a theory:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...rive-thruster/

That's really neat, if theoretically "controversial".

Trebuchet · 4th June 2016, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

A space drive would certainly be a nice thing to have.

A warp drive would be even better. Damn you, laws of physics!

p0lka · 6th September 2016, 01:39 PM

http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impo...ested-in-space

still testing it.

I did search the forums for em drive but it ignored me, sorry if there is a bigger thread that I couldn't find to post this in..

Dancing David · 6th September 2016, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impo...ested-in-space

still testing it.

I did search the forums for em drive but it ignored me, sorry if there is a bigger thread that I couldn't find to post this in..

"just rumours at this point"

p0lka · 6th September 2016, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

"just rumours at this point"

ah sorry, i missed that bit

what the hell, its new news though

Dancing David · 6th September 2016, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

ah sorry, i missed that bit

what the hell, its new news though

3point14 · 7th September 2016, 06:36 AM

I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation).

I think the interesting things are:

1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point)
&
2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work.

Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?

Horatius · 7th September 2016, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?

A friend sent me the link about the proposed test this morning. My question is, if he was faking this, what is the maximum delta-v he could sneak into this satellite? Assuming a traditional thruster, or an ion thruster, and the maximum amount of reaction mass possible, how long would the satellite be expected to function?

Beelzebuddy · 7th September 2016, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Horatius

A friend sent me the link about the proposed test this morning. My question is, if he was faking this, what is the maximum delta-v he could sneak into this satellite? Assuming a traditional thruster, or an ion thruster, and the maximum amount of reaction mass possible, how long would the satellite be expected to function?

I don't think it would be possible to sneak an extra thruster onto a satellite. Those things are ridiculously engineered.

RussDill · 7th September 2016, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation).

I think the interesting things are:

1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point)
&
2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work.

Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?

Given the tiny amount of force generated per unit of energy, it would probably be more difficult to test in space. It would be very difficult to subtract out the other forces acting on it within a margin of error that wouldn't swamp out any emdrive effect.

3point14 · 7th September 2016, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by RussDill

Given the tiny amount of force generated per unit of energy, it would probably be more difficult to test in space. It would be very difficult to subtract out the other forces acting on it within a margin of error that wouldn't swamp out any emdrive effect.

Even running it continuously for a week or three?

ctamblyn · 7th September 2016, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation).

I think the interesting things are:

1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point)
&
2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work.

Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?

On point (2), every "theory" I've heard regarding the supposed mechanism behind the purported effect has been bunk. The latest such attempted explanation (involving Unruh radiation and the Casimir effect, somehow) was addressed by John Baez here:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/11766301...ts/E1ecoYsa5ae

If this device does work (doubtful at this point, but let's see), it seems it will involve new physics.

Horatius · 7th September 2016, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

I don't think it would be possible to sneak an extra thruster onto a satellite. Those things are ridiculously engineered.

This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket.

3point14 · 7th September 2016, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Horatius

This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket.

I would suspect some serious issues if it ever came out that the payload provided wasn't the payload described.

Horatius · 7th September 2016, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I would suspect some serious issues if it ever came out that the payload provided wasn't the payload described.

But if it's part of a scam, why would he care about that? If it's ever found out, his scam collapses anyways.

Beelzebuddy · 7th September 2016, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket.

If it's on a cubesat, I'd doubt the results no matter what they were. The thrust barely enters the range of detectability with a tabletop size apparatus. You'd want to scale it UP, not down, and not to a form factor with extremely limited room for solar panels, if it's as power-intensive as described.

[ETA] And attitude control - can cubesats even pack gyroscopes? You'd need to keep this thing pointed perfectly prograde at all times if you ever hope to measure any deviation.

Tolls · 8th September 2016, 12:59 AM

Why do they feel that they need to launch something into space to detect this "thrust"?

Why do they think it's easier to see this effect up there than down here in a lab under significantly better controlled conditions?

beelzebub · 8th September 2016, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

Why do they feel that they need to launch something into space to detect this "thrust"?

Why do they think it's easier to see this effect up there than down here in a lab under significantly better controlled conditions?

...err perhaps to kick the can down the road some more?

Tolls · 9th September 2016, 12:47 AM

It does look like that.
Just wondered if they'd actually given some explanation.

RussDill · 9th September 2016, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Even running it continuously for a week or three?

How would running it longer help? If your error bars on the other forces you are subtracting out are larger than the force you are trying to measure, running it longer just costs more.

3point14 · 9th September 2016, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by RussDill

How would running it longer help? If your error bars on the other forces you are subtracting out are larger than the force you are trying to measure, running it longer just costs more.

I was thinking the direction of the errors would be fairly random and the directional push of the drive would not be. I'm now thinking my thinking was wrong.

28th July 2015, 07:59 AM	#1
dlorde Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,848	EM Drive still chugging on... Did anyone notice this yesterday: German scientists confirm NASA results of propellantless 'impossible' EM drive. One begins to wonder what is the error they are all making, or, if it's not an experimental error, how to account for this effect within the current framework...
dlorde Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,848	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

28th July 2015, 08:02 AM	#2
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 39,012	The source is Hacked Magazine, I wonder what sort of journal that is. Here may be tehs ource http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2015-4083 Behind paywall
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar Last edited by Dancing David; 28th July 2015 at 08:04 AM.

28th July 2015, 09:19 AM	#4
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,005	But they replicated the thrust with an independent setup, which is a big step in itself. Even if the thrust results from an error in controls, it's the same error. This isn't Rossi's e-cat, which only works for the inventor and when no one else is looking.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,005

28th July 2015, 09:25 AM	#5
phunk Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,683	But they admitted they were lacking in some areas, like magnetic shielding, which seems like a potential problem when the apparatus is inside a steel chamber and setup right next to the wall.
phunk Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,683

28th July 2015, 09:37 AM	#6
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,005	The original setup wasn't magnetically shielded either, was it?
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,005

28th July 2015, 08:16 AM	#3
Aepervius Non credunt, semper verificare Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Sigil, the city of doors Posts: 14,581	Originally Posted by dlorde Did anyone notice this yesterday: German scientists confirm NASA results of propellantless 'impossible' EM drive. One begins to wonder what is the error they are all making, or, if it's not an experimental error, how to account for this effect within the current framework... They confirmed nothing. they just confirmed they attempted and thought to have eliminated some source of error. Their conclusion make it clear.

28th July 2015, 03:20 PM	#7
jadebox Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,354	Most of the articles I've seen online fail to note that the study concludes by saying that their results neither confirm or refute the device claims. -- Roger
	Last edited by jadebox; 28th July 2015 at 03:23 PM.

28th July 2015, 05:17 PM	#8
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwet Posts: 16,175	They need to talk Elon Musk into giving them a free rocket ride and try out the device in space. If it accelerates, it works.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

28th July 2015, 11:16 PM	#9
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 23,520	There should be an object launched into orbit that then uses this drive. See if the orbit increases. If it does then it works, otherwise it probably does not work.
	__________________ http://rsi.org.au/ http://www.2xxfm.org.au/

29th July 2015, 04:17 AM	#10
RussDill Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Charleston Posts: 5,426	Originally Posted by rjh01 There should be an object launched into orbit that then uses this drive. See if the orbit increases. If it does then it works, otherwise it probably does not work. You still need to control for effects. Things like emitted heat and interactions with magnetic and electrical fields that exist around the earth could easily overpower the reported thrust of the device.
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

31st July 2015, 04:29 PM	#11
Magico07 Student Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 25	This is about the best article I've seen on the EM drive - certainly, better researched than many of them. http://www.science20.com/robert_inve...mmunity-156719
Magico07 Student Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 25

3rd August 2015, 06:12 PM	#12
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 23,520	Originally Posted by RussDill You still need to control for effects. Things like emitted heat and interactions with magnetic and electrical fields that exist around the earth could easily overpower the reported thrust of the device. If all it could do is go from low to high orbit via any means without using a lot of energy then it would be worth doing. Who cares how it works as long as it performs a useful job. I think we should be looking for significant effects. We know that satellites that are launched into low orbit will have their orbit decay due to atmospheric friction. If this one goes into a higher orbit it would be the first one to do so without rockets. It would then be worth spending big $ on this technology.
	__________________ http://rsi.org.au/ http://www.2xxfm.org.au/

3rd August 2015, 06:40 PM	#13
Reality Check Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 21,480	Originally Posted by Dancing David Here may be tehs ource http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2015-4083 Which reveals that this is a conference paper - not a published paper in a peer reviewed journal. The authors are professor Martin Tajmar and a MSc graduate at the Dresden University of Technology.
	__________________ NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist!

3rd August 2015, 11:46 PM	#14
RussDill Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Charleston Posts: 5,426	Originally Posted by rjh01 If all it could do is go from low to high orbit via any means without using a lot of energy then it would be worth doing. Who cares how it works as long as it performs a useful job. I think we should be looking for significant effects. We know that satellites that are launched into low orbit will have their orbit decay due to atmospheric friction. If this one goes into a higher orbit it would be the first one to do so without rockets. It would then be worth spending big $ on this technology. Note that the EM drive has nothing to do with the amount of energy used. It is monumentally inefficient. The interesting claim is that it does not use reaction mass. As far as going into a higher orbit without using reaction mass (thrusters, ion drive, etc), there are methods already available. In LEO, there is a magnetic field that can be used for propulsion or to generate energy. Additionally, there are both solar sails and magnetic sails (a tether is a type of magnetic sail). However, these methods require additional mass to be brought on board (such as a tether). It ends up being easier just to include reaction mass instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacec..._reaction_mass
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

15th April 2016, 02:40 AM	#15
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	There is some talk that peer review is imminent. This seems the most accurate, current report. http://www.popularmechanics.com/spac...-it-wont-pass/
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	__________________ Up the River!

15th April 2016, 08:04 AM	#16
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 39,049	Originally Posted by 3point14 There is some talk that peer review is imminent. This seems the most accurate, current report. http://www.popularmechanics.com/spac...-it-wont-pass/ From the comments: The ElectroMagnetic Drive uses Eletromagnetic Quantum Fluctuations to push "Space, or Dark Energy" away from itself, and in doing so, the Drive "Falls" into the Desired Direction! Its that simple! .. There you have it The EQF's push the DE making the drive fall. simples

20th April 2016, 01:17 AM	#17
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	Originally Posted by RussDill Note that the EM drive has nothing to do with the amount of energy used. It is monumentally inefficient. The interesting claim is that it does not use reaction mass. As far as going into a higher orbit without using reaction mass (thrusters, ion drive, etc), there are methods already available. In LEO, there is a magnetic field that can be used for propulsion or to generate energy. Additionally, there are both solar sails and magnetic sails (a tether is a type of magnetic sail). However, these methods require additional mass to be brought on board (such as a tether). It ends up being easier just to include reaction mass instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacec..._reaction_mass Yes, but if the device were a) proved to have a valid thrust effect by a space test and then b) the source of the effect were found, then c) you can probably improve upon it to make it better.
mike3 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,466	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and consuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – my reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

3rd June 2016, 11:23 AM	#18
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	For those like me who really hope this is something that works (which, for those who are about to jump down my throat, doesn't mean I think it will, I just hope it will) someone has a theory: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...rive-thruster/
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	__________________ Up the River!

4th June 2016, 05:06 PM	#19
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,534	A space drive would certainly be a nice thing to have.
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

4th June 2016, 05:23 PM	#20
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 12,502	Originally Posted by 3point14 For those like me who really hope this is something that works (which, for those who are about to jump down my throat, doesn't mean I think it will, I just hope it will) someone has a theory: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...rive-thruster/ That's really neat, if theoretically "controversial".
	__________________ "The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

4th June 2016, 06:02 PM	#21
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwet Posts: 16,175	Originally Posted by BenBurch A space drive would certainly be a nice thing to have. A warp drive would be even better. Damn you, laws of physics!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

6th September 2016, 01:39 PM	#22
p0lka Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 793	http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impo...ested-in-space still testing it. I did search the forums for em drive but it ignored me, sorry if there is a bigger thread that I couldn't find to post this in..
p0lka Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 793	Last edited by p0lka; 6th September 2016 at 01:42 PM.

6th September 2016, 01:48 PM	#23
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 39,012	Originally Posted by p0lka http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impo...ested-in-space still testing it. I did search the forums for em drive but it ignored me, sorry if there is a bigger thread that I couldn't find to post this in.. "just rumours at this point"
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

6th September 2016, 02:04 PM	#24
p0lka Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 793	Originally Posted by Dancing David "just rumours at this point" ah sorry, i missed that bit what the hell, its new news though
p0lka Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 793

6th September 2016, 02:50 PM	#25
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 39,012	Originally Posted by p0lka ah sorry, i missed that bit what the hell, its new news though
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

7th September 2016, 06:36 AM	#26
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation). I think the interesting things are: 1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point) & 2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work. Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	__________________ Up the River!

7th September 2016, 08:01 AM	#27
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 26,240	Originally Posted by 3point14 Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work? A friend sent me the link about the proposed test this morning. My question is, if he was faking this, what is the maximum delta-v he could sneak into this satellite? Assuming a traditional thruster, or an ion thruster, and the maximum amount of reaction mass possible, how long would the satellite be expected to function?
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

7th September 2016, 08:09 AM	#28
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,005	Originally Posted by Horatius A friend sent me the link about the proposed test this morning. My question is, if he was faking this, what is the maximum delta-v he could sneak into this satellite? Assuming a traditional thruster, or an ion thruster, and the maximum amount of reaction mass possible, how long would the satellite be expected to function? I don't think it would be possible to sneak an extra thruster onto a satellite. Those things are ridiculously engineered.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,005

7th September 2016, 08:25 AM	#29
RussDill Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Charleston Posts: 5,426	Originally Posted by 3point14 I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation). I think the interesting things are: 1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point) & 2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work. Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work? Given the tiny amount of force generated per unit of energy, it would probably be more difficult to test in space. It would be very difficult to subtract out the other forces acting on it within a margin of error that wouldn't swamp out any emdrive effect.
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

7th September 2016, 08:26 AM	#30
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	Originally Posted by RussDill Given the tiny amount of force generated per unit of energy, it would probably be more difficult to test in space. It would be very difficult to subtract out the other forces acting on it within a margin of error that wouldn't swamp out any emdrive effect. Even running it continuously for a week or three?
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	__________________ Up the River!

7th September 2016, 10:02 AM	#31
ctamblyn Data Ghost Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The Library Posts: 2,735	Originally Posted by 3point14 I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation). I think the interesting things are: 1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point) & 2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work. Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work? On point (2), every "theory" I've heard regarding the supposed mechanism behind the purported effect has been bunk. The latest such attempted explanation (involving Unruh radiation and the Casimir effect, somehow) was addressed by John Baez here: https://plus.google.com/u/0/11766301...ts/E1ecoYsa5ae If this device does work (doubtful at this point, but let's see), it seems it will involve new physics.
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7th September 2016, 10:12 AM	#32
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 26,240	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy I don't think it would be possible to sneak an extra thruster onto a satellite. Those things are ridiculously engineered. This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

7th September 2016, 10:13 AM	#33
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	Originally Posted by Horatius This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket. I would suspect some serious issues if it ever came out that the payload provided wasn't the payload described.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14,456	__________________ Up the River!

7th September 2016, 12:48 PM	#34
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 26,240	Originally Posted by 3point14 I would suspect some serious issues if it ever came out that the payload provided wasn't the payload described. But if it's part of a scam, why would he care about that? If it's ever found out, his scam collapses anyways.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

7th September 2016, 01:23 PM	#35
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,005	Originally Posted by Horatius This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket. If it's on a cubesat, I'd doubt the results no matter what they were. The thrust barely enters the range of detectability with a tabletop size apparatus. You'd want to scale it UP, not down, and not to a form factor with extremely limited room for solar panels, if it's as power-intensive as described. [ETA] And attitude control - can cubesats even pack gyroscopes? You'd need to keep this thing pointed perfectly prograde at all times if you ever hope to measure any deviation.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,005	Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 7th September 2016 at 01:26 PM.