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Old 28th July 2015, 07:59 AM   #1
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EM Drive still chugging on...

Did anyone notice this yesterday: German scientists confirm NASA results of propellantless 'impossible' EM drive.

One begins to wonder what is the error they are all making, or, if it's not an experimental error, how to account for this effect within the current framework...
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Old 28th July 2015, 08:02 AM   #2
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The source is Hacked Magazine, I wonder what sort of journal that is.


Here may be tehs ource
http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2015-4083

Behind paywall
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Old 28th July 2015, 08:16 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
Did anyone notice this yesterday: German scientists confirm NASA results of propellantless 'impossible' EM drive.

One begins to wonder what is the error they are all making, or, if it's not an experimental error, how to account for this effect within the current framework...
They confirmed nothing. they just confirmed they attempted and thought to have eliminated some source of error. Their conclusion make it clear.
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Old 28th July 2015, 09:19 AM   #4
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But they replicated the thrust with an independent setup, which is a big step in itself. Even if the thrust results from an error in controls, it's the same error. This isn't Rossi's e-cat, which only works for the inventor and when no one else is looking.
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Old 28th July 2015, 09:25 AM   #5
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But they admitted they were lacking in some areas, like magnetic shielding, which seems like a potential problem when the apparatus is inside a steel chamber and setup right next to the wall.
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Old 28th July 2015, 09:37 AM   #6
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The original setup wasn't magnetically shielded either, was it?
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Old 28th July 2015, 03:20 PM   #7
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Most of the articles I've seen online fail to note that the study concludes by saying that their results neither confirm or refute the device claims.

-- Roger

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Old 28th July 2015, 05:17 PM   #8
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They need to talk Elon Musk into giving them a free rocket ride and try out the device in space. If it accelerates, it works.
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Old 28th July 2015, 11:16 PM   #9
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There should be an object launched into orbit that then uses this drive. See if the orbit increases. If it does then it works, otherwise it probably does not work.
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Old 29th July 2015, 04:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
There should be an object launched into orbit that then uses this drive. See if the orbit increases. If it does then it works, otherwise it probably does not work.
You still need to control for effects. Things like emitted heat and interactions with magnetic and electrical fields that exist around the earth could easily overpower the reported thrust of the device.
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Old 31st July 2015, 04:29 PM   #11
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This is about the best article I've seen on the EM drive - certainly, better researched than many of them.

http://www.science20.com/robert_inve...mmunity-156719
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Old 3rd August 2015, 06:12 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
You still need to control for effects. Things like emitted heat and interactions with magnetic and electrical fields that exist around the earth could easily overpower the reported thrust of the device.
If all it could do is go from low to high orbit via any means without using a lot of energy then it would be worth doing. Who cares how it works as long as it performs a useful job.

I think we should be looking for significant effects. We know that satellites that are launched into low orbit will have their orbit decay due to atmospheric friction. If this one goes into a higher orbit it would be the first one to do so without rockets. It would then be worth spending big $ on this technology.
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Old 3rd August 2015, 06:40 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Which reveals that this is a conference paper - not a published paper in a peer reviewed journal. The authors are professor Martin Tajmar and a MSc graduate at the Dresden University of Technology.
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Old 3rd August 2015, 11:46 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If all it could do is go from low to high orbit via any means without using a lot of energy then it would be worth doing. Who cares how it works as long as it performs a useful job.

I think we should be looking for significant effects. We know that satellites that are launched into low orbit will have their orbit decay due to atmospheric friction. If this one goes into a higher orbit it would be the first one to do so without rockets. It would then be worth spending big $ on this technology.
Note that the EM drive has nothing to do with the amount of energy used. It is monumentally inefficient. The interesting claim is that it does not use reaction mass.

As far as going into a higher orbit without using reaction mass (thrusters, ion drive, etc), there are methods already available. In LEO, there is a magnetic field that can be used for propulsion or to generate energy.

Additionally, there are both solar sails and magnetic sails (a tether is a type of magnetic sail).

However, these methods require additional mass to be brought on board (such as a tether). It ends up being easier just to include reaction mass instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacec..._reaction_mass
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Old 15th April 2016, 02:40 AM   #15
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There is some talk that peer review is imminent.

This seems the most accurate, current report.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/spac...-it-wont-pass/
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Old 15th April 2016, 08:04 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There is some talk that peer review is imminent.

This seems the most accurate, current report.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/spac...-it-wont-pass/
From the comments:

The ElectroMagnetic Drive uses Eletromagnetic Quantum Fluctuations to push "Space, or Dark Energy" away from itself, and in doing so, the Drive "Falls" into the Desired Direction!

Its that simple! .
.

There you have it The EQF's push the DE making the drive fall. simples
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Old 20th April 2016, 01:17 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Note that the EM drive has nothing to do with the amount of energy used. It is monumentally inefficient. The interesting claim is that it does not use reaction mass.

As far as going into a higher orbit without using reaction mass (thrusters, ion drive, etc), there are methods already available. In LEO, there is a magnetic field that can be used for propulsion or to generate energy.

Additionally, there are both solar sails and magnetic sails (a tether is a type of magnetic sail).

However, these methods require additional mass to be brought on board (such as a tether). It ends up being easier just to include reaction mass instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacec..._reaction_mass
Yes, but if the device were a) proved to have a valid thrust effect by a space test and then b) the source of the effect were found, then c) you can probably improve upon it to make it better.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 11:23 AM   #18
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For those like me who really hope this is something that works (which, for those who are about to jump down my throat, doesn't mean I think it will, I just hope it will) someone has a theory:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...rive-thruster/
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Old 4th June 2016, 05:06 PM   #19
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A space drive would certainly be a nice thing to have.
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Old 4th June 2016, 05:23 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
For those like me who really hope this is something that works (which, for those who are about to jump down my throat, doesn't mean I think it will, I just hope it will) someone has a theory:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...rive-thruster/
That's really neat, if theoretically "controversial".
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Old 4th June 2016, 06:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
A space drive would certainly be a nice thing to have.
A warp drive would be even better. Damn you, laws of physics!
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Old 6th September 2016, 01:39 PM   #22
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http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impo...ested-in-space

still testing it.

I did search the forums for em drive but it ignored me, sorry if there is a bigger thread that I couldn't find to post this in..

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Old 6th September 2016, 01:48 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impo...ested-in-space

still testing it.

I did search the forums for em drive but it ignored me, sorry if there is a bigger thread that I couldn't find to post this in..
"just rumours at this point"
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Old 6th September 2016, 02:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
"just rumours at this point"
ah sorry, i missed that bit

what the hell, its new news though
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Old 6th September 2016, 02:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
ah sorry, i missed that bit

what the hell, its new news though
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Old 7th September 2016, 06:36 AM   #26
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I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation).

I think the interesting things are:

1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point)
&
2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work.


Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?
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Old 7th September 2016, 08:01 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?


A friend sent me the link about the proposed test this morning. My question is, if he was faking this, what is the maximum delta-v he could sneak into this satellite? Assuming a traditional thruster, or an ion thruster, and the maximum amount of reaction mass possible, how long would the satellite be expected to function?
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Old 7th September 2016, 08:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
A friend sent me the link about the proposed test this morning. My question is, if he was faking this, what is the maximum delta-v he could sneak into this satellite? Assuming a traditional thruster, or an ion thruster, and the maximum amount of reaction mass possible, how long would the satellite be expected to function?
I don't think it would be possible to sneak an extra thruster onto a satellite. Those things are ridiculously engineered.
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Old 7th September 2016, 08:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation).

I think the interesting things are:

1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point)
&
2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work.


Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?
Given the tiny amount of force generated per unit of energy, it would probably be more difficult to test in space. It would be very difficult to subtract out the other forces acting on it within a margin of error that wouldn't swamp out any emdrive effect.
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Old 7th September 2016, 08:26 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Given the tiny amount of force generated per unit of energy, it would probably be more difficult to test in space. It would be very difficult to subtract out the other forces acting on it within a margin of error that wouldn't swamp out any emdrive effect.

Even running it continuously for a week or three?
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Old 7th September 2016, 10:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation).

I think the interesting things are:

1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point)
&
2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work.


Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work?
On point (2), every "theory" I've heard regarding the supposed mechanism behind the purported effect has been bunk. The latest such attempted explanation (involving Unruh radiation and the Casimir effect, somehow) was addressed by John Baez here:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/11766301...ts/E1ecoYsa5ae

If this device does work (doubtful at this point, but let's see), it seems it will involve new physics.
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Old 7th September 2016, 10:12 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I don't think it would be possible to sneak an extra thruster onto a satellite. Those things are ridiculously engineered.


This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket.
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Old 7th September 2016, 10:13 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket.

I would suspect some serious issues if it ever came out that the payload provided wasn't the payload described.
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Old 7th September 2016, 12:48 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I would suspect some serious issues if it ever came out that the payload provided wasn't the payload described.


But if it's part of a scam, why would he care about that? If it's ever found out, his scam collapses anyways.
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Old 7th September 2016, 01:23 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket.
If it's on a cubesat, I'd doubt the results no matter what they were. The thrust barely enters the range of detectability with a tabletop size apparatus. You'd want to scale it UP, not down, and not to a form factor with extremely limited room for solar panels, if it's as power-intensive as described.

[ETA] And attitude control - can cubesats even pack gyroscopes? You'd need to keep this thing pointed perfectly prograde at all times if you ever hope to measure any deviation.

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Old 8th September 2016, 12:59 AM   #36
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Why do they feel that they need to launch something into space to detect this "thrust"?

Why do they think it's easier to see this effect up there than down here in a lab under significantly better controlled conditions?
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Old 8th September 2016, 09:37 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Why do they feel that they need to launch something into space to detect this "thrust"?

Why do they think it's easier to see this effect up there than down here in a lab under significantly better controlled conditions?
...err perhaps to kick the can down the road some more?
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Old 9th September 2016, 12:47 AM   #38
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It does look like that.
Just wondered if they'd actually given some explanation.
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Old 9th September 2016, 10:08 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Even running it continuously for a week or three?
How would running it longer help? If your error bars on the other forces you are subtracting out are larger than the force you are trying to measure, running it longer just costs more.
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and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
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Old 9th September 2016, 10:21 AM   #40
3point14
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
How would running it longer help? If your error bars on the other forces you are subtracting out are larger than the force you are trying to measure, running it longer just costs more.
I was thinking the direction of the errors would be fairly random and the directional push of the drive would not be. I'm now thinking my thinking was wrong.
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Some seem to think the UK leaving the EU is like Robbie leaving Take That.
In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
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