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#1 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,848
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EM Drive still chugging on...
Did anyone notice this yesterday: German scientists confirm NASA results of propellantless 'impossible' EM drive.
One begins to wonder what is the error they are all making, or, if it's not an experimental error, how to account for this effect within the current framework... |
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Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice... |
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,012
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The source is Hacked Magazine, I wonder what sort of journal that is.
![]() Here may be tehs ource http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2015-4083 Behind paywall |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#3 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,581
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#4 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,005
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But they replicated the thrust with an independent setup, which is a big step in itself. Even if the thrust results from an error in controls, it's the same error. This isn't Rossi's e-cat, which only works for the inventor and when no one else is looking.
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#5 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,683
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But they admitted they were lacking in some areas, like magnetic shielding, which seems like a potential problem when the apparatus is inside a steel chamber and setup right next to the wall.
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#6 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,005
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The original setup wasn't magnetically shielded either, was it?
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#7 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,354
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Most of the articles I've seen online fail to note that the study concludes by saying that their results neither confirm or refute the device claims.
-- Roger |
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#8 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 16,175
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They need to talk Elon Musk into giving them a free rocket ride and try out the device in space. If it accelerates, it works.
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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#9 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,520
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There should be an object launched into orbit that then uses this drive. See if the orbit increases. If it does then it works, otherwise it probably does not work.
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#10 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,426
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The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep |
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#11 |
Student
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 25
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This is about the best article I've seen on the EM drive - certainly, better researched than many of them.
http://www.science20.com/robert_inve...mmunity-156719 |
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#12 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,520
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If all it could do is go from low to high orbit via any means without using a lot of energy then it would be worth doing. Who cares how it works as long as it performs a useful job.
I think we should be looking for significant effects. We know that satellites that are launched into low orbit will have their orbit decay due to atmospheric friction. If this one goes into a higher orbit it would be the first one to do so without rockets. It would then be worth spending big $ on this technology. |
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#13 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 21,480
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Which reveals that this is a conference paper - not a published paper in a peer reviewed journal. The authors are professor Martin Tajmar and a MSc graduate at the Dresden University of Technology.
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NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
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#14 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,426
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Note that the EM drive has nothing to do with the amount of energy used. It is monumentally inefficient. The interesting claim is that it does not use reaction mass.
As far as going into a higher orbit without using reaction mass (thrusters, ion drive, etc), there are methods already available. In LEO, there is a magnetic field that can be used for propulsion or to generate energy. Additionally, there are both solar sails and magnetic sails (a tether is a type of magnetic sail). However, these methods require additional mass to be brought on board (such as a tether). It ends up being easier just to include reaction mass instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacec..._reaction_mass |
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The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep |
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#15 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 14,456
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There is some talk that peer review is imminent.
This seems the most accurate, current report. http://www.popularmechanics.com/spac...-it-wont-pass/ |
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Up the River! |
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#16 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
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From the comments:
The ElectroMagnetic Drive uses Eletromagnetic Quantum Fluctuations to push "Space, or Dark Energy" away from itself, and in doing so, the Drive "Falls" into the Desired Direction! Its that simple! .. There you have it The EQF's push the DE making the drive fall. simples |
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#17 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,466
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“Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and consuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – my reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote. |
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#18 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 14,456
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For those like me who really hope this is something that works (which, for those who are about to jump down my throat, doesn't mean I think it will, I just hope it will) someone has a theory:
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...rive-thruster/ |
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Up the River! |
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#19 |
Gatekeeper of The Left
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,534
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A space drive would certainly be a nice thing to have.
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For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system? |
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#20 |
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,502
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"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy |
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#21 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 16,175
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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#22 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 793
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http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impo...ested-in-space
still testing it. I did search the forums for em drive but it ignored me, sorry if there is a bigger thread that I couldn't find to post this in.. |
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#23 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,012
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__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#24 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 793
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#25 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,012
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__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#26 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 14,456
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I've been following this for a while now, I really hope it works. (With the caveat that hope does not imply expectation).
I think the interesting things are: 1 - it's not been disproved (The expectation is that it will be so at one point) & 2 - There seems to be a theory knocking about regarding how it might actually work. Putting one into orbit and turning it on is going to at least answer the most vital question - does it work? |
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Up the River! |
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#27 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,240
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A friend sent me the link about the proposed test this morning. My question is, if he was faking this, what is the maximum delta-v he could sneak into this satellite? Assuming a traditional thruster, or an ion thruster, and the maximum amount of reaction mass possible, how long would the satellite be expected to function? |
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#28 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,005
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#29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,426
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The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep |
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#31 |
Data Ghost
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Library
Posts: 2,735
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On point (2), every "theory" I've heard regarding the supposed mechanism behind the purported effect has been bunk. The latest such attempted explanation (involving Unruh radiation and the Casimir effect, somehow) was addressed by John Baez here:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/11766301...ts/E1ecoYsa5ae If this device does work (doubtful at this point, but let's see), it seems it will involve new physics. |
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#32 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,240
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This is one of the small "cube sats". It's likely they'll build the whole thing themselves, and then piggyback on another satellite launch. It would be way easier to fake one of these than a traditional satellite. If there were using an ion engine as the fake, it probably wouldn't even cause them a problem with having extra possibly flammable fuel on board the rocket. |
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Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd |
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#34 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,240
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__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd |
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#35 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,005
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If it's on a cubesat, I'd doubt the results no matter what they were. The thrust barely enters the range of detectability with a tabletop size apparatus. You'd want to scale it UP, not down, and not to a form factor with extremely limited room for solar panels, if it's as power-intensive as described.
[ETA] And attitude control - can cubesats even pack gyroscopes? You'd need to keep this thing pointed perfectly prograde at all times if you ever hope to measure any deviation. |
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#36 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,968
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Why do they feel that they need to launch something into space to detect this "thrust"?
Why do they think it's easier to see this effect up there than down here in a lab under significantly better controlled conditions? |
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#37 |
Scholar
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 115
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#38 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,968
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It does look like that.
Just wondered if they'd actually given some explanation. |
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#39 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,426
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__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep |
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