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Old 1st August 2016, 11:13 AM   #361
Mojo
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
"How can it matter."

Just like I said. I seriously wonder whether you people are deliberately obtuse, or terminally biased!

If I had to guess, I’d say it’s the latter. You simply don’t like the implications of your own individual and collective ignorance.

Obviously the answer is currently unknown (though you might be surprised how many skeptics have insisted otherwise on these very threads). Why it matters is because there HAS to be an answer…and the answer implicates realities of the most profound nature.

Science is the closest thing we have to an explicit empirical representation of reality. What is the relationship between this representation and the reality it describes?

…no one has a clue. No one has a clue if there even is one. But then again, there HAS to be one…because the representation is created by reality (so there’s a relationship…by default). Neural reality. It’s not random, It’s not arbitrary, It’s not a coincidence.

If you look below…you’ll notice Reality Check dancing the typical skeptic jig about how reality obeys the same laws from here to eternity.

But just try and point out that a law is a metaphysical reality. That Reality Check (and the vast majority of the skeptic hoard) constantly play the ‘nature follows rules’ game all the way up to the point where the implications are identified.

…do rules actually exist?

“No no no no no no…of course not. Never said that. Don’t mean that. Could never mean that. Could never happen.”

(…I don’t think it’s really necessary to point out why such a conclusion is so frightening to the skeptic POV)

…so what, then, is the reason that everything occurs as it does (not to mention the remarkable utility of our own models). And why do you and just about every skeptic alive keep insisting that everything from here to eternity follows all the same laws / rules?

“…oh…we don’t really know…we’re just being poetic…and it doesn’t really matter…it’s not really a question that we have to answer…and it can’t be rules because that would make skeptics pee their pants…so it just can’t be.”

So what is it?

“Don’t know…and it doesn’t matter (didn’t I just say that) but it can’t be that cause all the skeptics and me we all say so.”

…and that’s all we get. Denial.

Interestingly enough…not a single one of you can even begin to describe what it is that actually does explain why everything occurs as it does (let alone what everything actually is), or how we come to create the math and physics that we do…or what the relationship between all these ridiculously diverse phenomena actually is.

All you do…is make excuses…and try and pretend that it doesn’t matter. Again…denial.

Of course, in order to empirically resolve the question of the relationship between the laws of physics and reality it will be necessary to determine how the laws of physics are created by reality. Neural reality…and how it creates our subjective experience.

…and what do we actually empirically and definitively know about what our subjective experience is…or is not…and how it’s created? The same subjective experience that creates all the laws / rules … and asks all these really annoying questions.

Very close to nothing.

Quite obviously…science happens, despite our all-but-complete ignorance of how. As do vast quantities of other subjective activities that we empirically know equally close to nothing about…including anomalous psychological events.

IOW…we can no more empirically adjudicate anomalous psychological events than we can adjudicate whatever it is that creates science. That does not in any way unconditionally validate every crazy idea that comes along. But reports of these experiences number in the hundreds of millions (probably billions…but a hostile research climate precludes accurate accounting). Until some means is arrived at to accurately adjudicate the issues…they have evidentiary validity.





Tell that to Cristof Koch and the half million or so other cognitive scientists currently sweating out some kind of functional neural and / or cognitive theory. Not to mention the legions of computer scientists trying to hash out some kind of AI. To put it simply…the last thing they’re interested in is metaphysics. They want empirical data. They want to know what ‘philosophy’ is. They want to know where it comes from. And they want to know how it’s created.




…but that’s exactly what we’ve got. Isn’t it Reality Check.

Magic!

Neither you nor anyone else on this planet has the faintest clue what ‘He’ or anything else actually is, where it ultimately came from, or why / how it behaves as it does. Not only that…but all you DO have…is models. And not only that…but you don’t have a clue where these models come from…or how. Nor do you have a clue what relationship they have with what is actually there…if any.

IOW…when it comes right down to it…you don’t understand anything. All this stuff is happening…right here, right now… and you can’t ultimately explain ANY of it.

The very definition of magic!

…and then you come on here lecturing me about denial. That’s rich!




…yeah, and if you want to play silly word games, that’s your choice. I don’t suppose it is worth pointing out that you exist as nothing other than a 100% subjective creature. Tell me Reality Check…are you convinced that you do nothing but lie to yourself? Must be hard doing science (let alone anything else) if you can’t trust a single thing you think or feel.
Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
That's all good...but problems occur when 'what we know' so frequently ignores 'what we don't know' and the implications thereof. Those implications are anything but academic since they influence and inform vast areas of our individual and collective existence. IOW...there is lots of evidence that we may, in fact, 'know' this deeper layer of existence...just not in ways that are amenable to empirical adjudication.




…no, I started ranting cause there’s a lot of hypocrisy going around. Making assumptions and generalizations is, admittedly, a bad habit of mine. The experiment itself has obvious design flaws…but the paradigms that are implicated are very far from resolved…which is the sentiment that underlies most of the discussion that occurs here.

Well, don't say I didn't warn you.
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Old 1st August 2016, 11:19 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
....it is worth pointing out that the entirety of science is utterly dependent on ‘subjective inner knowing.’

‘Consciousness’…it’s called.

IOW…science so far doesn’t have a clue how science occurs or is created. It’s all a direct function of ‘subjective inner knowing.’

…and you have just insisted that the input of such a phenomena invalidates w is correctly angry at stupidity and hatever is associated with it. A bit hasty dontcha think given that you have just invalidated not just all of science but your entire life as well.

…not to mention that post you just poured such vitriol into. Not-valid!
It is correctly angry about the stupidity and invalidity of the "experiment" and the "results" it reported. If you think what those jerkoffs did was science then you have not the slightest notion of what science is and how carefully it must be done to do it well/correctly!!!!!

And we have spent a lot of clearly wasted time trying to set you on the path to reality.....to no avail!!!!!


Oh, without looking it up tell us what vitriol is (it is a real science thing)!!
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Old 1st August 2016, 11:21 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Well, don't say I didn't warn you.
You have, I have. He who chooses not to turn away from his grievous error shall be called ******* !!!!!!!
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Old 1st August 2016, 11:41 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
… 'what we know' so frequently ignores 'what we don't know' and the … implications are anything but academic since they influence and inform vast areas of our individual and collective existence. IOW...there is lots of evidence that we may, in fact, 'know' this deeper layer of existence...just not in ways that are amenable to empirical adjudication.
But that very evidence is weighed by our purely subjective inner knowings which none comprehend and therefore is moot. Or something.
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Old 1st August 2016, 12:44 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
...
Quite obviously…science happens, despite our all-but-complete ignorance of how. As do vast quantities of other subjective activities that we empirically know equally close to nothing about…including anomalous psychological events.
...
This is probably the crux of the matter which you hope to establish, that subjective experience or 'anomalous psychological events' have the same validity as science.
Attempt to break down science in order to make your irrational beliefs look just as valid as (your version of) science.
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Old 1st August 2016, 02:42 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
"How can it matter."....
A long post containing ignorance certainly does not matter, annnnoid.
This is Philosophy of science
Quote:
Philosophy of science is a branch of philosophy concerned with the foundations, methods, and implications of science. The central questions of this study concern what qualifies as science, the reliability of scientific theories, and the ultimate purpose of science. This discipline overlaps with metaphysics, ontology, and epistemology, for example, when it explores the relationship between science and truth.
This is the study of how science happens.

Cognitive science does not study how science happens.
Quote:
Cognitive science is the interdisciplinary, scientific study of the mind and its processes.[2] It examines the nature, the tasks, and the functions of cognition.
Christof Koch does not study how science happens.
Quote:
Christof Koch (/kɑːx/;[1] born November 13, 1956) is an American neuroscientist best known for his work on the neural bases of consciousness. He is the President and Chief Scientific Officer of the Allen Institute for Brain Science in Seattle. From 1986 until 2013, he was a professor at the California Institute of Technology.[2]
The inanity of thinking that the foundations of science is "magic" should be obvious, annnnoid. The assumptions that the universe is objective and truthful are reasonable assumptions that work. Think about a couple of our ancestors in Africa, one pointing at an object and saying "Look there is a lion, lets run" and another pointing at the object and saying "Look there is a tree, lets eat its fruit" ! Or going to a tree and finding out that it is a lion. Treating the world as objective and truthful works.
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:14 PM   #367
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By the way:

I finally think, based on solid logical deduction (and a little bit believe), that God exists and we will all be judged.
Based on science.

Logical reasoning:

The Light and Beings of Light in Near death experiences can be recognised as phenomenon with an ontological status of being real. It differs from the phenomena in the physical realm, but it also is different from dreamcontent and hallucinations.
It has qualities and characteristics which correspondent with a nature of 'being real'.

The relationship between brain and enhanced consciousness

Ketamine causes hallucinations, how? By blocking NMDA-receptors.
Scientists claim they could induce an Out Of Body experience by using electric stimulation of the brain.
Fact is that electric stimulation blocks the electromagnetic field of the cells in the brain. It blocks its working.
Therefore people develop an enhanced consciousness.

DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) probably stops our natural limitation to be able to experience our enhanced conciousness.

That's a hypothesis, based on scientific evidence, of Pim van Lommel, cardiologist and Near Death Experience investigator.

His idea is that without a brain, our consciousness will be at its full potential (cosmological).


Sam Parnia of the Aware Study says;

"Regarding the one case that was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest, Parnia concluded, "This is significant, since it has often been assumed that [these] experiences ... are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with 'real' events when the heart isn't beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events.
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:21 PM   #368
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Conclusion: lifereview and The Light are so real (more real then this life): we will all be judged. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience, and we are here to grow in love.
You may think it's not true, but better not take the risk.

When you want to know more:

https://www.amazon.com/God-Afterlife.../dp/0062279548
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:49 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
By the way:

I finally think, based on solid logical deduction (and a little bit believe), that God exists and we will all be judged.
Based on science.

Logical reasoning:

The Light and Beings of Light in Near death experiences can be recognised as phenomenon with an ontological status of being real. It differs from the phenomena in the physical realm, but it also is different from dreamcontent and hallucinations.
It has qualities and characteristics which correspondent with a nature of 'being real'.

The relationship between brain and enhanced consciousness

Ketamine causes hallucinations, how? By blocking NMDA-receptors.
Scientists claim they could induce an Out Of Body experience by using electric stimulation of the brain.
Fact is that electric stimulation blocks the electromagnetic field of the cells in the brain. It blocks its working.
Therefore people develop an enhanced consciousness.

DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) probably stops our natural limitation to be able to experience our enhanced conciousness.

That's a hypothesis, based on scientific evidence, of Pim van Lommel, cardiologist and Near Death Experience investigator.

His idea is that without a brain, our consciousness will be more enhanced.


Sam Parnia of the Aware Study says;

"Regarding the one case that was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest, Parnia concluded, "This is significant, since it has often been assumed that [these] experiences ... are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with 'real' events when the heart isn't beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events.
Please do not conflate fecal matter and science like this. It makes you look uninformed (the nicest way I can say it). Religion has no place in science and much science negates much of religion. History negates more of it.
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:53 PM   #370
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Tell that to the scientists who experienced an NDE. (a Near Death Experience).
You can not treat all these smart people as being deluded.

There are neurosergeons, archeologists, university professors, pilots and highly intelligent and other good people among NDE-ers who are convinced that The Light they exiperiences is of a pure and perfect nature (in the aestetical and ethical sense), the lifereview felt so real to them and the beings of light are as real as you and I.
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:58 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
By the way:
You need to read the top of your screen, Maartenn100: Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology.

You need to learn about that books on Amazon need not be science, Maartenn100, especially one about the idiocy that common biological changes the process of death creating common experience (near-death experience) somehow means God exists.
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:02 PM   #372
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Why do you deny selectively the scientific evidence of the Aware Study (a scientific study) of Dr. Sam Parnia? (confirmation bias?)

He concludes:

"Regarding the one case that was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest, Parnia concluded, "This is significant, since it has often been assumed that [these] experiences ... are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with 'real' events when the heart isn't beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events."
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:03 PM   #373
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Exclamation Maartenn100: Dr. Sam Parnia actually concludes that more work is needed

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Tell that to the scientists who experienced an NDE. (a Near Death Experience).
Why don't you ask the scientists who actually study Near Death Experiences rather than relying a book by deluded people, Maartenn100?

What the Aware Study actually found, e.g. 46% of NDE were not religious "go onto the light" experiences - they were fearful and traumatic.

And learn what a citation is rather that randomly highlighting quoted from somewhere ! So I find the actual quote ands see a bit of a lie by quote mining. Dr. Sam Parnia actually concludes that more work is needed .
Results of world's largest Near Death Experiences study published
Quote:
One case was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest. Dr Parnia concluded: “This is significant, since it has often been assumed that experiences in relation to death are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with ‘real’ events when the heart isn’t beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events.

“Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE’s), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice.”
Or an other view: AWARE Results Finally Published – No Evidence of NDE
Quote:
But wait a minute – there is no mention in the abstract of the hidden images. How can that be? I understood this to be the main outcome of the study, the one thing that would set it apart from the merely descriptive studies of the past. What happened?
...
Well that’s disappointing. However, apparently there were no cases of cardiac arrest patients who were able to see, remember, and report the hidden images. Collecting data was more difficult than they hoped, but the results they did get were negative.
...
Let’s put this into some perspective. Out of the 140 cases that were interviewed, only 1 case reported memories of events during the cardiac arrest that Parnia deemed “verified.” All 140 cases were given one interview, 101 were given a stage 2 interview, and the one patient was given a stage 3 interview by Parnia.
The title is misleading - the subjects not seeing the images is more no evidence of Out of Body Experiences. The problem is that one case being interviewed by Parnia which suggests confirmation bias or at least bad study design. The subjects should have been interviewed by people with no bias for or against NDE.

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Old 1st August 2016, 05:08 PM   #374
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Quote:
What the Aware Study actually found, e.g. 46% of NDE were not religious "go onto the light" experiences - they were fearful and traumatic..
That's your selection.

But why do you deny the crucial part of the scientific evidence? Because you don't like the conclusion?

"Regarding the one case that was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest, Parnia concluded, "This is significant, since it has often been assumed that [these] experiences ... are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with 'real' events when the heart isn't beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events."

Confirmation bias?
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:12 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Reality Check
Why don't you ask the scientists who actually study Near Death Experiences rather than relying a book by deluded people, Maartenn100?
You call sincere people like Sam Parnia, an Assistant professor of Medicin and Pim van Lommel, cardiologist and many other scientists like neurosergeons, archeologists, university professors who actually experienced a Near Death and can testify that it has characteristics of 'being hyperreal', you call these people 'deluded'?

Based on what research of their mental health, Reality-Check?
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:18 PM   #376
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Quote:
“Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE’s), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice.”

Popper would say: you only need just one case which falsifies your theory (of consciousness).

By the way: there are hundreds of testimonies of out of body experiences with VERIFIED events. Later on the NDE'er talked about what they saw from above and their family members and medical staff confirmed it. Hundreds of cases.
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:21 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Because you don't like the conclusion?
Because you are lying abut the conclusion with your quote mining, Maartenn100.
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: Dr. Sam Parnia actually concludes that more work is needed
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:24 PM   #378
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Maartenn100: I call the anthers of the book you cited deluded

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You call sincere people like Sam Parnia, .... you call these people 'deluded'?
Read what I wrote.
Quote:
Why don't you ask the scientists who actually study Near Death Experiences rather than relying a book by deluded people, Maartenn100?
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: I call the authors of the book you cited deluded (because they have a delusion that NDE are evidence for God).
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:26 PM   #379
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I don't lie but you are right: more work has to be done.
But for me, there are enough clues.

I really encourage you to begin to read and view the many testimonies on the internet (on the website of NDERF and on Youtube.

You will begin to discover patterns in the stories.
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:28 PM   #380
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Lightbulb Maartenn100: Parnia selecting 1 case for interview 3 implies confirmation bias

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Confirmation bias?
Les us see - Parnia selects one and only once case for a third interview. He gets results that seem to reflect what he wants from the study. So yes - a hint of confirmation bias, Maartenn100!
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: Parnia selecting 1 case for interview 3 implies confirmation bias
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:29 PM   #381
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Reality-Check, these phenomena are of another nature than physical objects and our measurable reality here. But they have 'some ontological status' in a spiritual reality.
It sounds woo, but I think it is different from dreamcontent of the content of hallucinations.

There are patterns in the testimonies. The effect on the people who experienced it is so deep (existentially).
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:30 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I don't lie but you are right: more work has to be done.
The point is you quote minded Dr. Sam Parnia leading to a lie about his conclusion. What you quoted as a description of 1 case.
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: Dr. Sam Parnia actually concludes that more work is needed\

An ignorant "go Google for NDE testimonials" is really bad, Maartenn100.

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Old 1st August 2016, 05:32 PM   #383
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It's not only Sam Parnia.
Pim van Lommel did a study in the Netherlands, dr. Penny Sartori,a British medical researcher did her study, and now Jeffrey Long and Paul Perry.

They all come to the same conclusion: the experience of this Light and these beings of light, by many people, independently from each other, is so pure (aestical and ethical) and so vivid, that it can be given some realitystatus different from our physical reality but also different from the content of a dream or the content of a hallucination.
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:34 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Reality-Check, these phenomena are of another nature than physical objects and our measurable reality here.....
Maartenn100, Unsupported fantasies are not appropriate for the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology section for the forum.
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:39 PM   #385
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Well that's what this discussion is about, isn't it? Is it unsupported fantasy or is it a supported reality (supported by hundreds of testimonies, even by scientists, and many studies).
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:40 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
They all come to the same conclusion: the experience Light and this beings of light is so pure (aestical and ethical) and so vivid, that it can be given some realitystatus.
That is wrong Maartenn100, because the AWARE study that you have cited makes no such ridiculous claim .
No citations to these other scientific studies giving evidence for "beings of light" suggests fantasies.

You really seem to be digging yourself into a pit with your posts today.
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: Dr. Sam Parnia actually concludes that more work is needed
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: I call the authors of the book you cited deluded (because they have a delusion that NDE are evidence for God). (and you cite these authors again!)
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: Parnia selecting 1 case for interview 3 implies confirmation bias
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:42 PM   #387
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Exclamation Maartenn100: The plural of anecdote is not data

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Is it unsupported fantasy or is it a supported reality (supported by hundreds of testimonies, even by scientists, and many studies).
The evidence you have given today is that "it" is your unsupported fantasy not supported by so far imaginary "hundreds of testimonies, even by scientists, and many studies". But you seem to be ignorant of a central part of science.
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: The plural of anecdote is not data!
The Plural of Anecdote is Not Data
Quote:
Data is useful. Data represents information from either all relevant cases or a representative sample of all the relative cases. Inferences made from properly acquired data lead to scientific discoveries. Data is scientific. Unfortunately, data tends to be dry. It tends to be boring. We generally do not connect emotionally to 'data'.

Anecdotes are stories. People have been telling stories for as long as there has been speech. The ability to tell stories likely led to tremendous survival advantages for those early human groups that achieved it. Our minds seem adapted to dealing with relatively small groups of 150 people or less. Language and storytelling played an important role in maintaining the groups' wellbeing. A tribe whose members could relate their individual experiences about the location of food or predators would be expected to survive in greater numbers. It is speculated that stories in the form of gossip may have given rise to important survival advantages.
I disagree slightly - some data can be extracted by careful analysis of anecdotal evidence with the appropriate safeguards, e.g. to prevent confirmation analysis, not to influence interviewees, etc.

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Old 1st August 2016, 05:47 PM   #388
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Reality Check, do you really believe (it's a believe) that you can discover everything with science.
When you want to know something about the existence of a spiritual world, science is not a good tool.

You need to accept the notion of anecdotical evidence. (you can see it as 'revelations' too).

You need another tool of knowledge.

I encourage you to read the hundreds of independent testimonies here in this archive of NDERF:

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

Every day there are new people with their story.

Try to filter the information out of it. Like a police inspector or a detective who is studying the many witness testimonies and is trying to search for the 'patterns in the data'.

When you do this with an unbiased mind, you will have to admit that a realm of unearthly origine probably exists.
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Old 1st August 2016, 05:54 PM   #389
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Question Maartenn100: Please list the scientific studies supporting your "beings of light"

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Reality Check, do you really believe (it's a believe) that you can discover everything with science.
I believe that we can discover everything in the real world with science. The fantasies of people can never be discovered by anything.

I know that fairy stories such as anecdotal evidence exist ! I know the stupidity of thinking that archives of fairy stories are data. When I look at them with an unbiased mind I see a biased collection of stories. When I see the idiocy on the first page of a memory evoked during a short blackout on hitting water being labelled as a NDE.
You need to learn that they are not data.
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: The plural of anecdote is not data!
You need to learn what happens in the real world where if you are proposing an idea it is up to you to supply the evidence which is not a list of often irrelevant stories.
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: Please list the scientific studies supporting your "beings of light" idea.

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Old 1st August 2016, 06:03 PM   #390
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You haven't read these testimonies, but you have already decided that it is 'a biased collection of stories' or 'fantasies'.
You didn't read the book of Jeffrey Long (God and the Afterlife) but you already concluded that he is deluded.
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Old 1st August 2016, 06:10 PM   #391
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Exclamation Maartenn100: List the anecdotes in that archive that are not labeled as NDE

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You haven't read these testimonies, ...
I have a brain and use it, Maartenn100. Show that archive is not biased by answering this simple question.
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: List the anecdotes in that archive that are not labeled as NDE!

Real NDE data is collected as in the AWARE study - look at people that went near to death and see if they had NDE so that we have unbiased data.

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Old 1st August 2016, 06:15 PM   #392
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Thumbs down Maartenn100: A book by ignorant authors is not scientific literature

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You didn't read the book of Jeffrey Long (God and the Afterlife) but you already concluded that he is deluded.
The title alone suggests that both authors of the book are deluded, Maartenn100. The authors are as ignorant about you about science:
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: The plural of anecdote is not data!
2 August 2016 Maartenn100: A book by ignorant authors is not scientific literature.

ETA: The blurb for the book lies because it depends on anecdotes as the AWARE study shows that almost half of NDE subject report fearful or traumatic feelings and there were no cases of "God; a Supreme Being who radiated love and grace".

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Old 1st August 2016, 06:47 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
A long post containing ignorance certainly does not matter, annnnoid.
This is Philosophy of science
This is the study of how science happens.

Cognitive science does not study how science happens.

…science is a direct function of cognition. If you’re studying cognition, you cannot help but also be studying how science happens.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Christof Koch does not study how science happens.

I guess I have to repeat myself.

…science is a direct function of cognition. If Koch is studying cognition (and he is), he cannot help but also be studying how science happens.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The inanity of thinking that the foundations of science is "magic" should be obvious, annnnoid. The assumptions that the universe is objective and truthful are reasonable assumptions that work. Think about a couple of our ancestors in Africa, one pointing at an object and saying "Look there is a lion, lets run" and another pointing at the object and saying "Look there is a tree, lets eat its fruit" ! Or going to a tree and finding out that it is a lion. Treating the world as objective and truthful works.

Quite obviously…it doesn’t matter in the slightest what word is used to describe the situation. Call it magic, call it aliens, call it blue fairy powder.

…what matters is the following…which, not surprisingly…you had absolutely no response to:

Neither you nor anyone else on this planet has the faintest clue what ‘He’ or anything else actually is, where it ultimately comes from, or why / how it behaves as it does. Not only that…but all you DO have…is models. And not only that…but you don’t have a clue where these models come from…or how. Nor do you have a clue what relationship they have with what is actually there…if any.

IOW…when it comes right down to it…you don’t understand anything. All this stuff is happening…right here, right now… and you can’t ultimately explain ANY of it.

…so the word is irrelevant. Whatever word means “I don’t have a clue” is the word that we can use to describe what you folks ultimately know.

Like you say…all you’ve got, is assumptions. And what is truly amusing…is that your assumptions are pure metaphysics. Not a shred of empirical science.

…religion…IOW.

Congratulations on joining the rest of the human race.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I have a brain and use it,

So does a cockroach.

What is truly amusing…is that you never stop proclaiming the utility and veracity of science…yet when it comes to these specific issues, science has all but zero capacity to empirically adjudicate them. IOW…there is absolutely no way to empirically establish what is, or is not, actually happening.

…yet somehow this never stops you from concluding that the whole issue has been utterly resolved. It’s all neurosis / psychosis of some kind. Hallucinations dontcha know. Not a single authentic experience amongst the millions that occur. This despite the indisputable fact that science can’t even begin to empirically adjudicate a single one of them.

…and then you claim that you’re not biased!!!!

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
ETA: The blurb for the book lies because it depends on anecdotes as the AWARE study shows that almost half of NDE subject report fearful or traumatic feelings and there were no cases of "God; a Supreme Being who radiated love and grace".

…and how does this definitively establish the fraudulence of alternate anecdotal evidence?

Why don't you just admit it. You're biased. You haven't the slightest interest in actually understanding this subject. You simply want to find any way possible to make it go away....irrespective of the scientific validity involved.
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Old 1st August 2016, 07:20 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
…science is a direct function of cognition.
The study of how science happens is still called philosophy of science, etc.
This is Philosophy of science This is the study of how science happens.
Cognitive science does not study how science happens.
Christof Koch does not study how science happens.

The fantasy that irrelevance is a good debating tactic seems to be persisting, annnnoid. Science works using reasonable assumptions that rational people agree with. This is nothing to do with peoples subjective viewpoints.

You have a brain that better than a cockroaches and can be used to by educating yourself about science and that 2 August 2016 annnnoid: The plural of anecdote is not data!
This is not a delusion of "fraudulence of alternate anecdotal evidence". It is the simple fact that subjective stories are unreliable. It is that the simple fact that a book relying on one-sided anecdotes will only conform their bias. To be truthful the title of the book should have been "Satan, God and the Afterlife" because there are as many "dark" NDE as there are "light" NDE. But the title suggests the authors cherry picked only the light side.

ETA: Another possibility is another simple reason that anecdotes are not data: selective reporting. For NDE, it could be that traumatizing experiences are not reported because people want to forget bad memories.

Fantasizing about my interest in the science of NDE is bad, annnnoid. For example, I have known about the AWARE study for a couple of years now.

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Old 1st August 2016, 07:53 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I don't lie but you are right: more work has to be done.
But for me, there are enough clues.

I really encourage you to begin to read and view the many testimonies on the internet (on the website of NDERF and on Youtube.

You will begin to discover patterns in the stories.
Patterns mean nothing, people's beliefs mean nothing, incomplete or even complete reports without physical proof of an occurrence mean nothing. You need real experiments by real scientists with real equipment proven to be capable of responding to what is predicted to testably occur before any of this can be evidence based. Personal opinion and claimed experience are not science.
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Old 1st August 2016, 08:02 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You call sincere people like Sam Parnia, an Assistant professor of Medicin and Pim van Lommel, cardiologist and many other scientists like neurosergeons, archeologists, university professors who actually experienced a Near Death and can testify that it has characteristics of 'being hyperreal', you call these people 'deluded'?

Based on what research of their mental health, Reality-Check?
A scientist, even a very intelligent and talented one is quite as capable of experiencing a delusion as any other person. Unless he can prove it, it means no more that the dreams of an itinerant slow-witted farm-worker who saw the Virgin Mary while looking at the hot sun without any water to drink for several hours. It may appear to him to be a miracle (if he winds up being rescued before he dies) but it is still nothing more than the mind playing it's tricks on him. Until or unless someone PROVES (not just claims) it happened in the real, not the dream, world !!
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Old 1st August 2016, 08:08 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Well that's what this discussion is about, isn't it? Is it unsupported fantasy or is it a supported reality (supported by hundreds of testimonies, even by scientists, and many studies).
Testimony IS NOT TRUTH WITHOUT PROOF/EVIDENCE!!! Please try to follow that key point.
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Old 1st August 2016, 09:18 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The study of how science happens is still called philosophy of science, etc.
This is Philosophy of science This is the study of how science happens.
Cognitive science does not study how science happens.
Christof Koch does not study how science happens.

The fantasy that irrelevance is a good debating tactic seems to be persisting, annnnoid. Science works using reasonable assumptions that rational people agree with. This is nothing to do with peoples subjective viewpoints.

You have a brain that better than a cockroaches and can be used to by educating yourself about science and that 2 August 2016 annnnoid: The plural of anecdote is not data!

Here’s a trick question Reality Check:

Does a brain create science…or does philosophy create science?

I think if you go back to your grade one science class you’ll remember that it is your brain that creates everything that comes out of it. Do you remember them pointing out that science comes out of your brain. Think really hard. I’m sure they must have informed you of that rather elementary fact.

Since science comes out of your brain…that means anyone studying how your brain works is also studying what it creates. It creates science. Thus anyone studying your brain is also studying how science is created.

…and quite obviously (to everyone but you it seems), science is a direct function of cognition. As is philosophy. You’d have to be deaf blind dumb and stupid not to be aware of the degree to which the fundamental nature of meaning, understanding, syntax, and semantics (aka: cognition) are being explored and analyzed in both the fields of cognitive science and the fields of computer science.

Are you deaf blind dumb and stupid Reality Check?

No…didn’t think so.

I also noticed that you…once again…failed to respond to the points I very helpfully posted.

…for the second time.

Having some trouble with the implications of your own ignorance perhaps?

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
This is not a delusion of "fraudulence of alternate anecdotal evidence". It is the simple fact that subjective stories are unreliable. It is that the simple fact that a book relying on one-sided anecdotes will only conform their bias. To be truthful the title of the book should have been "Satan, God and the Afterlife" because there are as many "dark" NDE as there are "light" NDE. But the title suggests the authors cherry picked only the light side.

ETA: Another possibility is another simple reason that anecdotes are not data: selective reporting. For NDE, it could be that traumatizing experiences are not reported because people want to forget bad memories.

…aaaahh…the old ‘but we can’t rely on anecdotal evidence BS’ (maybe you ought to tell that to the half million or so practicing psychologists around the world for whom anecdotal evidence is one of the foundations of their practice). When does this stupid hyperbole apply…and how does that establish the fraudulence of the claims? And if you can’t rely on anecdotal evidence (which is what you have just argued), how on earth do you (personally) ever manage to survive a single moment of your terror-ridden existence, since you’ve insisted that not only is subjective experience riddled with lies…but anything you say is fundamentally untrustworthy!

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Fantasizing about my interest in the science of NDE is bad, annnnoid. For example, I have known about the AWARE study for a couple of years now.

…but my dear Reality Check…you’ve just argued that anecdotes like this one are biased and unreliable. I am thus going to have to conclude that you’re lying…whether you know it or not.

Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Patterns mean nothing, people's beliefs mean nothing, incomplete or even complete reports without physical proof of an occurrence mean nothing. You need real experiments by real scientists with real equipment proven to be capable of responding to what is predicted to testably occur before any of this can be evidence based. Personal opinion and claimed experience are not science.

Quite obviously you are not a real human being. No real human being could ever believe such garbage. Try talking to any credible psychologist and see how far you get when you insist that patterns, beliefs, and self-reports of any kind all mean nothing.

…they will laugh and pat you on the head and suggest you go back to school.

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Old 2nd August 2016, 02:07 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
"The hypothesis that water “treated” with intention can affect ice crystals formed from that water was pilot tested under double-blind conditions.<snip>
No peer review, no scientific methodology. More garbage pseudoscience pimped by Larry Dossey.


Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
So, end of discussion:
Only to those with a pathetically desperate need to believe. Reality, however, continues uneffected.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 02:18 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
You see what you want to see... Wishfull thinking.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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