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Old 6th November 2016, 09:34 AM   #361
Zivan
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There is the contrast of those who live in the Presence of God and those who are destined to the PIT—outside the presence of God.
She'ol just means "pit/grave". Nothing about hell.

So, you admit there is NO "hell" written in the Tanakh.


Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So the PIT can be hell outside the presence of God, a place reserved for the wicked.

<snip a lot of irrelevant verses with NO mention of a hell>
The Tanakh says God is everywhere, including the "PIT".

Psalms 139:8 "If I ascend to the heavens, there You (YHVH) are, and if I make my bed in she'ol ("PIT"), You (YHVH) are there."

It is only your wrong interpretation that says "she'ol" means "hell".

She'ol does NOT mean "hell".

Try again.

There is NO hell written in Tanakh.

There is also no devil/fallen angel/Lucifer.

Last edited by Zivan; 6th November 2016 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 6th November 2016, 10:15 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
My limit ability does not effect my infallibility!
Inherent contradiction. If you are limited then you are fallible by definition.
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Old 6th November 2016, 12:05 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
My limit ability does not effect my infallibility!
Perhaps not, but being wrong sure gets in the way of it.
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Old 6th November 2016, 12:47 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
She'ol just means "pit/grave". Nothing about hell.

So, you admit there is NO "hell" written in the Tanakh.

The Tanakh says God is everywhere, including the "PIT".

Psalms 139:8 "If I ascend to the heavens, there You (YHVH) are, and if I make my bed in she'ol ("PIT"), You (YHVH) are there."

It is only your wrong interpretation that says "she'ol" means "hell".

She'ol does NOT mean "hell".

Try again.

There is NO hell written in Tanakh.

There is also no devil/fallen angel/Lucifer.
QFT...

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Old 6th November 2016, 01:18 PM   #365
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I saw some of Paul's Posts on Stormfront. (2011) The fine folks there were, needless to say, not too happy with Paul's monkey blood made white people black theory. The thought of black people ever being white sent them reeling. Of course if he had talked about Lucy it would have been worse because evolution wrong. Paul sure picks some odd forums to peddle his ideas.
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Old 6th November 2016, 01:47 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...it's hard to web-search an appropriate, on-topic response...


I'm tempted to start responding to his Verse Blast posts with the Deepak Chopra Quote Generator.

http://wisdomofchopra.com/

For example:

"Your movement is only possible in reckless molecules"

Or

"Qualia co creates pure mysteries"
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Old 6th November 2016, 01:54 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
She'ol just means "pit/grave". Nothing about hell.

So, you admit there is NO "hell" written in the Tanakh.




The Tanakh says God is everywhere, including the "PIT".

Psalms 139:8 "If I ascend to the heavens, there You (YHVH) are, and if I make my bed in she'ol ("PIT"), You (YHVH) are there."

It is only your wrong interpretation that says "she'ol" means "hell".

She'ol does NOT mean "hell".

Try again.

There is NO hell written in Tanakh.

There is also no devil/fallen angel/Lucifer.


What Paul is doing is a common Christian apologetic tactic. Essentially, a whole host of passages poached from Jewish scripture are retroactively declared to be about Jesus, Satan, Hell or some other modern Christian dogma. This reinforces the illusion of one religion being the "fulfillment" of the other. It's one reason the Gospel writers spelunked through Jewish scripture to find passages they could claim as prophesying Jesus. It's also a reason the Gospels contradict each other to the point where a single consistent set of events can't be described. The Gospel writers didn't always agree on what passages were prophesies or how they would be fulfilled in their fictional Jesus biographies.
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Old 6th November 2016, 01:59 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
What Paul is doing is a common Christian apologetic tactic. Essentially, a whole host of passages poached from Jewish scripture are retroactively declared to be about Jesus, Satan, Hell or some other modern Christian dogma. This reinforces the illusion of one religion being the "fulfillment" of the other. It's one reason the Gospel writers spelunked through Jewish scripture to find passages they could claim as prophesying Jesus. It's also a reason the Gospels contradict each other to the point where a single consistent set of events can't be described. The Gospel writers didn't always agree on what passages were prophesies or how they would be fulfilled in their fictional Jesus biographies.
I like this.

...it's mine, now...

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Old 6th November 2016, 02:21 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
What Paul is doing is a common Christian apologetic tactic. Essentially, a whole host of passages poached from Jewish scripture are retroactively declared to be about Jesus, Satan, Hell or some other modern Christian dogma. This reinforces the illusion of one religion being the "fulfillment" of the other. It's one reason the Gospel writers spelunked through Jewish scripture to find passages they could claim as prophesying Jesus. It's also a reason the Gospels contradict each other to the point where a single consistent set of events can't be described. The Gospel writers didn't always agree on what passages were prophesies or how they would be fulfilled in their fictional Jesus biographies.

That issue led to one of my favorite Gospel mental images: Rodeo Jesus. Since Matthew didn't understand Hebrew poetic conventions, he had Jesus riding two donkeys at once!

Matt: 21:5 - "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."

He was trying to tie Jesus with a prophecy from Zechariah, and didn't realize that Hebrew poetry uses a technique where they will describe a single object twice, using slightly different language.
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Old 6th November 2016, 02:38 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
That issue led to one of my favorite Gospel mental images: Rodeo Jesus. Since Matthew didn't understand Hebrew poetic conventions, he had Jesus riding two donkeys at once!

Matt: 21:5 - "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."

He was trying to tie Jesus with a prophecy from Zechariah, and didn't realize that Hebrew poetry uses a technique where they will describe a single object twice, using slightly different language.
Remarkable, or awesome, as we say, if true.
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Old 6th November 2016, 02:42 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
That issue led to one of my favorite Gospel mental images: Rodeo Jesus. Since Matthew didn't understand Hebrew poetic conventions, he had Jesus riding two donkeys at once!

Matt: 21:5 - "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."

He was trying to tie Jesus with a prophecy from Zechariah, and didn't realize that Hebrew poetry uses a technique where they will describe a single object twice, using slightly different language.
That technique of parallelism is even to be found in the passage PB has presented to us in post #343, supposed to prove that the righteous will live eternally with God.
Well life after death is very clearly stated for those who love and obey God--Psa_16:11 You make me know the path of life; in your presence is unbounded joy, in your right hand eternal delight
He takes this poetic figure as a literal promise of eternal life. Perhaps he doesn't realise the technique either.

Last edited by Craig B; 6th November 2016 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 6th November 2016, 02:47 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Remarkable, or awesome, as we say, if true.

More details on this theory, and what it might implicate regarding the author of Matthew:

http://unveiling-christianity.net/20...-circus-trick/
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Old 6th November 2016, 02:49 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That technique of parallelism is even to be found in the passage PB has presented to us in post #343, supposed to prove that the righteous will live eternally with God.
Well life after death is very clearly stated for those who love and obey God--Psa_16:11 You make me know the path of life; in your presence is unbounded joy, in your right hand eternal delight
He takes this poetic figure as a literal promise of eternal life. Perhaps he doesn't realise the technique either.

Given his previous claims regarding the Old Testament/Tanakh, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. You see it all over the place in Genesis as well.
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Old 7th November 2016, 12:52 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
She'ol just means "pit/grave". Nothing about hell.

So, you admit there is NO "hell" written in the Tanakh.

The Tanakh says God is everywhere, including the "PIT".

Psalms 139:8 "If I ascend to the heavens, there You (YHVH) are, and if I make my bed in she'ol ("PIT"), You (YHVH) are there."

It is only your wrong interpretation that says "she'ol" means "hell".

She'ol does NOT mean "hell".

Try again.

There is NO hell written in Tanakh.

There is also no devil/fallen angel/Lucifer.
There is the adversary, to which the name devil, deceiver, Satan is given.

There is a distinction with regards to the wicked and the righteous—also a different place, outside the Presence of God.

Psa_5:5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.

But the wicked--Gen_18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing — to kill the righteous along with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike! Far be it from you! Shouldn't the judge of all the earth do what is just?"

Num_16:26 There he said to the assembly, "Leave the tents of these wicked men! Don't touch anything that belongs to them, or you may be swept away in all their sins."

Psa_1:6 For Adonai watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked is doomed.

Psa_9:17 The wicked will return to Sh'ol, all the nations that forget God.

Psa_145:20 Adonai protects all who love him, but all the wicked he destroys.

So the wicked do not enter the Presence of God, because they cannot endure his holy presence. But then we have what Jesus revealed about the destination of the wicked.

So Jesus the Messiah gives a clear picture of what will happen to those who refuse to repent---Luk 16:24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Also Jesus referring to Isa_66:24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Mar_9:48 where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

So there are many names regarding the place where the wicked go when they die.

Where will you go when you die?
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Old 7th November 2016, 01:03 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Inherent contradiction. If you are limited then you are fallible by definition.
Not so, my limitation to read the ancient languages that the Scriptures were written in does not effect my infallibility!!
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Old 7th November 2016, 02:02 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so, my limitation to read the ancient languages that the Scriptures were written in does not effect my infallibility!!
You know, according to your books, true disciples got the ability to understand languages. Just saying.
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Old 7th November 2016, 02:24 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You know, according to your books, true disciples got the ability to understand languages. Just saying.
Well here is an occasion thisI have not acquired--
Act 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?


Those were the days!!
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Old 7th November 2016, 02:26 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
<snip>
You did not address what Zivan wrote, at all. Do you understand that your "New Testament" is not part of (and contradicts) your "Old Testament"?

You also used the term, "Adonai" several times. Why, in these cases, did you use that term?

What is the word that is actually written in the texts you found when you word-searched "wicked"?

Why did the editors of whichever translation you cherry-picked from use "Adonai" instead of what is actually there?
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Old 7th November 2016, 02:27 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so, my limitation to read the ancient languages that the Scriptures were written in does not effect my infallibility!!
As has been demonstrated, this is, simply, not true. See your inability to respond to Zivan's most recent post, above.

Further, your "infallible, perfect understanding" does not protect you from English-language errors, either.
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Old 7th November 2016, 02:42 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Psa_145:20 Adonai protects all who love him, but all the wicked he destroys.

So the wicked do not enter the Presence of God, because they cannot endure his holy presence. But then we have what Jesus revealed about the destination of the wicked.

So Jesus the Messiah gives a clear picture of what will happen to those who refuse to repent---Luk 16:24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Mar_9:48 where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

So there are many names regarding the place where the wicked go when they die.

Where will you go when you die?
You have accurately set down what the various bits of the Bible have to tell us about the fate of evildoers. Now let us look at what you yourself have written for us to read. In the OT God rewards good people and destroys bad people. He does so on Earth. Where is the hell? When Adam offended God, his life was made temporary. When the Sodomites offended his angels they were burned by fire from the sky. Where is the hell?

The passage in Isaiah about worms and fire means this: evil people will end up in the rubbish dump where things are consumed by fire or worms. The fire and worms are always there, but anything thrown on the dump is soon reduced to nothing and destroyed. There is no suggestion of a conscious eternal state after death. This is the position taken by Jesus in Mark, the earliest Gospel.

The later Synoptic Gospels, Matthew and Luke, DO have an eternal Hell in which conscious people are tortured for ever. But this notion is not found in the Jewish scriptures, as Zivan says. It is a Christian innovation, and in my opinion it is not as early as Jesus, but was introduced later, because it's not in Mark.

This horrid doctrine became standard in later Christianity and in Islam, which in this matter copied Christianity rather than Judaism. It is a standing reproach to both these faiths, that they should ever have embraced it.
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Old 7th November 2016, 03:19 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You have accurately set down what the various bits of the Bible have to tell us about the fate of evildoers. Now let us look at what you yourself have written for us to read. In the OT God rewards good people and destroys bad people. He does so on Earth. Where is the hell? When Adam offended God, his life was made temporary. When the Sodomites offended his angels they were burned by fire from the sky. Where is the hell?

The passage in Isaiah about worms and fire means this: evil people will end up in the rubbish dump where things are consumed by fire or worms. The fire and worms are always there, but anything thrown on the dump is soon reduced to nothing and destroyed. There is no suggestion of a conscious eternal state after death. This is the position taken by Jesus in Mark, the earliest Gospel.

The later Synoptic Gospels, Matthew and Luke, DO have an eternal Hell in which conscious people are tortured for ever. But this notion is not found in the Jewish scriptures, as Zivan says. It is a Christian innovation, and in my opinion it is not as early as Jesus, but was introduced later, because it's not in Mark.

This horrid doctrine became standard in later Christianity and in Islam, which in this matter copied Christianity rather than Judaism. It is a standing reproach to both these faiths, that they should ever have embraced it.
You always present a good approach---but regardless it is essential to look at what Jesus the Jewish Messiah stated with regards to the destiny of those who do not repent. So yes hell is what Christ described as the eternal abode of the wicked. It is a conscience state as described---Luke 16:24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

It is not that I relish the fact of people ending up in this state, so that is essentially why the Gospel is declared to evade such a place.

But the prophet did declare---Isa 5:14 Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revellers.

So by what name one calls the place of the dead it is a conscious state---if there were no hell, there would be no need to proclaim the Gospel.

So where do you think you will go when you leave this world of the living??
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Old 7th November 2016, 03:35 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
You did not address what Zivan wrote, at all. Do you understand that your "New Testament" is not part of (and contradicts) your "Old Testament"?

You also used the term, "Adonai" several times. Why, in these cases, did you use that term?

What is the word that is actually written in the texts you found when you word-searched "wicked"?

Why did the editors of whichever translation you cherry-picked from use "Adonai" instead of what is actually there?
I used the Complete Jewish Bible—so what is wrong with using the Name “Adonai”?

As I have said different translations use different Name with reference to the Creator the God of Israel---The Tanakh has many reference to the abode of the wicked---one place is certain, not in the Presence of God.

The New Covenant is based on the Tanakh, out of the 250 chapters in the New Covenant, 209 have reference to the Tanakh—so where is the contradictions, there is rather a coalition.

Where will you go when you die?
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Old 7th November 2016, 03:45 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so, my limitation to read the ancient languages that the Scriptures were written in does not effect my infallibility!!
Of course it does, since you have no idea what the text originally said. You're relying on an imperfect and perhaps dishonest translation.
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Old 7th November 2016, 03:51 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You always present a good approach---but regardless it is essential to look at what Jesus the Jewish Messiah...
This bit is an opinion. How many Jews do you think agree with it?

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
...stated...
Actually, was said to be said to have stated. We have no eyewitness accounts of anything any Jesus was to be supposed to have said.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
... with regards to the destiny of those who do not repent. So yes hell is what Christ described as the eternal abode of the wicked. It is a conscience state as described---Luke 16:24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
Which is not in the Tanakh. Which is the issue you are supposed to be addressing.
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Old 7th November 2016, 03:58 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I used the Complete Jewish Bible—so what is wrong with using the Name “Adonai”?
What is "wrong" is that (by your own admission and practice) you do not understand the differences among "Adonai", "YHWH", YHVH", and "Elohim" (to name but a few); nor do you understand the translators' decisions as to which to use, when. SO much for "perfect understanding".

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I have said different translations use different Name with reference to the Creator the God of Israel---The Tanakh has many reference to the abode of the wicked---one place is certain, not in the Presence of God.
Which, as has been pointed out to you, is not the NT invention of "hell" (to say nothing of the fact that your own picture of "hell" seems to borrow more from Milton than form the NT.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The New Covenant is based on the Tanakh, out of the 250 chapters in the New Covenant, 209 have reference to the Tanakh—so where is the contradictions, there is rather a coalition.
So much for "perfect understanding".

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Where will you go when you die?
When I die, I will be dead. I will do no more "going"--it's a nonsensical question to anyone not caught up in the superstition to which you are in thrall.
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Old 7th November 2016, 04:37 AM   #386
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
But the prophet did declare---Isa 5:14 Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revellers.
Please read the words you have yourself chosen to cite. Where is anything said about a life after death? Isaiah is stating: you may be a boss here and now when you are alive; you may be a great fighter; you may be having good fun; but all this will stop when you die: and there will always be room for your carcase in the grave. That is literally what the words are saying.
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So by what name one calls the place of the dead it is a conscious state---if there were no hell, there would be no need to proclaim the Gospel.
Then there is no need to proclaim the Gospel, except perhaps to recall that it teaches righteous behaviour, as do many other ancient moral guides. Here is one: Buddha's Kalama Sutta. Notice that Buddha says (correctly) that to inspire moral behaviour it is not necessary to preach about rewards after death. It is not necessary even to know that there are any such rewards, and Buddha here claims no such knowledge himself. (See paragraph 17 in this version.) Nonetheless he preaches - and I think very effectively - the importance of righteous thought and behaviour.
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Old 7th November 2016, 05:04 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Of course it does, since you have no idea what the text originally said. You're relying on an imperfect and perhaps dishonest translation.
Not so--- many of the translations are very well studied to enhance the actual meaning---nothing dishonest about that--there is a project to translate the original copies as there is no original Script.

No Sir I have complete confidence that what we have is adequate in giving us a clear revelation of what the Creator intended us to know about his will and purpose.
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Old 7th November 2016, 05:14 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Please read the words you have yourself chosen to cite. Where is anything said about a life after death? Isaiah is stating: you may be a boss here and now when you are alive; you may be a great fighter; you may be having good fun; but all this will stop when you die: and there will always be room for your carcase in the grave. That is literally what the words are saying. Then there is no need to proclaim the Gospel, except perhaps to recall that it teaches righteous behaviour, as do many other ancient moral guides. Here is one: Buddha's Kalama Sutta. Notice that Buddha says (correctly) that to inspire moral behaviour it is not necessary to preach about rewards after death. It is not necessary even to know that there are any such rewards, and Buddha here claims no such knowledge himself. (See paragraph 17 in this version.) Nonetheless he preaches - and I think very effectively - the importance of righteous thought and behaviour.
Again you present a fair response—but I rely more on the teachings of Jesus than that of Buddha.

The crux of the matter, is that we who have repented and are born of the Word of God are equipped here on earth to be able to enter into the presence of the Creator—those who have not repented will not be able to abide in his presence.

So hell as Jesus taught is a place prepared for the sinner who will not repent.---- Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

People can reject what Jesus said about hell—but that will not change the destination of sinners who do not repent.

Where will your final abode be??
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Old 7th November 2016, 05:17 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so--- many of the translations are very well studied to enhance the actual meaning---nothing dishonest about that--there is a project to translate the original copies as there is no original Script.

No Sir I have complete confidence that what we have is adequate in giving us a clear revelation of what the Creator intended us to know about his will and purpose.
So where are those accurate statements about where, when, who and how, Paul Bethke.

You are still in the pointless place of claiming that something will happen someplace to someone at sometime. Not much of a prophecy, is it?
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Old 7th November 2016, 05:28 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
What is "wrong" is that (by your own admission and practice) you do not understand the differences among "Adonai", "YHWH", YHVH", and "Elohim" (to name but a few); nor do you understand the translators' decisions as to which to use, when. SO much for "perfect understanding".
These Names all refer to the Creator, the God of Israel—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, so it is perfectly clear to whom I refer—but you seem to be nit picking. Do you know all the Names the God of Israel is addressed by?
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Which, as has been pointed out to you, is not the NT invention of "hell" (to say nothing of the fact that your own picture of "hell" seems to borrow more from Milton than form the NT.
You seem to have difficulty reading as I have given the reference to hell as Jesus taught---Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Quote:
So much for "perfect understanding".
So much for your misunderstanding.

Quote:
When I die, I will be dead. I will do no more "going"--it's a nonsensical question to anyone not caught up in the superstition to which you are in thrall.
So you say—but you have no proof only—your present state of blasphemy will determine your final abode to be in hell, if you do not repent.

Jesus said by ones word---so your words will condemn you.--- Mat_12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Just to add one more--- Mat_23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
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Old 7th November 2016, 05:49 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
These Names all refer to the Creator, the God of Israel—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, so it is perfectly clear to whom I refer—but you seem to be nit picking. Do you know all the Names the God of Israel is addressed by?
Incompetent moron deity seems appropriate.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You seem to have difficulty reading as I have given the reference to hell as Jesus taught---Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew is dated to 75-100 CE. It is not an eyewitness account, simply a copy of a copy of a copy.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So much for your misunderstanding.
So much for your understanding.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So you say—but you have no proof only—your present state of blasphemy will determine your final abode to be in hell, if you do not repent.
So you claim, but you can provide no evidence for heaven, hell or this deity you propose. Do you believe in unicorns? They are in the bible too.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Jesus said by ones word---so your words will condemn you.--- Mat_12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
We already know Matthew is adulterated and not eyewitness. Prove jebus existed, then prove he actually spoke those words. You cannot? You are a failed prophet. Again

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Just to add one more--- Mat_23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Easy. There is no evidence that any such place exists. None. Why would anyone fear an imaginary place? Should we thus fear Mordor?
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Old 7th November 2016, 05:56 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Again you present a fair response—but I rely more on the teachings of Jesus than that of Buddha.

The crux of the matter, is that we who have repented and are born of the Word of God are equipped here on earth to be able to enter into the presence of the Creator—those who have not repented will not be able to abide in his presence.

So hell as Jesus taught is a place prepared for the sinner who will not repent.---- Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

People can reject what Jesus said about hell—but that will not change the destination of sinners who do not repent.

Where will your final abode be??
My point is that the Jewish scriptures have no doctrine of eternal punishment. Whether Jesus believed it I'm not sure. Matthew and Luke know of it; but the earliest Gospel, Mark, doesn't report this from Jesus. All your Gospel quotes are from Matt and Luke.

So it's not a scriptural Jewish teaching, may or may not be a belief of Jesus (I like to think it wasn't), and certainly IS a doctrine of later Christianity and Islam. Make of that what you will. My own reaction: so much the worse for later Christianity and Islam. That teaching is a monstrosity.
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Old 7th November 2016, 06:00 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Again you present a fair response—but I rely more on the teachings of Jesus than that of Buddha.

The crux of the matter, is that we who have repented and are born of the Word of God are equipped here on earth to be able to enter into the presence of the Creator—those who have not repented will not be able to abide in his presence.

So hell as Jesus taught is a place prepared for the sinner who will not repent.---- Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

People can reject what Jesus said about hell—but that will not change the destination of sinners who do not repent.

Where will your final abode be??
This does not address the statement that life after death is not part of the Old Testament.

Essentially, you are rejecting the teachings of the Old Testament in favour of what you are told that someone said that there is life after death, all the while claiming that you follow the teachings of the OT.

As for my final abode, I've already mentioned it - and oddly enough it is consistent with the OT. I will be dead - my body will be disposed of and that will be that. And the judgement of whether or not I was an ethical man will be left to the living.
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Old 7th November 2016, 06:11 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so--- many of the translations are very well studied to enhance the actual meaning
How would you know since you can't read the original?

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---nothing dishonest about that--
Lying for Jesus has been a thing for two millennia.

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No Sir I have complete confidence that what we have is adequate in giving us a clear revelation of what the Creator intended us to know about his will and purpose.
Given that there are many translations, some of which disagree on points or offer different interpretations, which translation are you talking about?
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Old 7th November 2016, 07:26 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There is the adversary, to which the name devil, deceiver, Satan is given.
<!-clipped for irrelevancy-->
Why did you use a bunch of New Testament verses in a discussion about what the Old Testament says?

What you did makes about as much sense as quoting the Book of Mormon to try and make a point about what the New Testament does or does not say about when Jews first arrived in North America.

Yes, you threw a few Old Testament verses in there as well, but none of them supported your claims. They supported the point Zivan had made.

Were you even paying attention to what Zivan wrote?
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Old 7th November 2016, 07:38 AM   #396
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Paul,

Did you ever sort out how many temples there have been?

What sources did you use?
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Old 7th November 2016, 07:56 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so--- many of the translations are very well studied to enhance the actual meaning
But that's irrelevant to your case because it has been shown that you are indiscriminate in your choice of translation. Just as often as not, you choose translations that are demonstrably poor or incorrect. That good translations may exist has nothing to do with your use of translations that convey an incorrect meaning you would not apprehend by knowing the original languages.

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No Sir I have complete confidence that what we have is adequate in giving us a clear revelation of what the Creator intended us to know about his will and purpose.
The problem is that you have confidence, but no rational basis for that confidence. Your confidence arises from an irrational need to be seen as correct when you have not made the appropriate study. You deem your translations correct because they "must" be correct, not because it actually is in the problem cases.
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Old 7th November 2016, 08:17 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well here is an occasion thisI have not acquired--
Act 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?


Those were the days!!
They were indeed, but not everyone present was convinced. Why did you miss out the next verses?
Parthians, and (other nationalities omitted) 11 ... we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
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Old 7th November 2016, 08:35 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But that's irrelevant to your case because it has been shown that you are indiscriminate in your choice of translation. Just as often as not, you choose translations that are demonstrably poor or incorrect. That good translations may exist has nothing to do with your use of translations that convey an incorrect meaning you would not apprehend by knowing the original languages.
You are wrong again, I use multiple translations to get the correct understanding—the NIV is just one of them that can be relied on to give a clear understanding.

Quote:
The problem is that you have confidence, but no rational basis for that confidence. Your confidence arises from an irrational need to be seen as correct when you have not made the appropriate study. You deem your translations correct because they "must" be correct, not because it actually is in the problem cases.
You are wrong on so many occasions citing things that are so far removed from the actual truth.
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Old 7th November 2016, 08:37 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are wrong again, I use multiple translations to get the correct understanding—the NIV is just one of them that can be relied on to give a clear understanding.
Why this one specifically? What is it about your understanding of the original language that allows you to pick this one over the others?
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