ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 2nd November 2016, 04:46 AM   #121
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
False! There is no such exclusion. Read the Torah: a woman must remain with the man who rapes her, as long as he lives. Only difference is that the rapist must pay the woman's father fifty shekels - around half a kilo - of silver, in compensation for his daughter's virginity. See Deuteronomy 22
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Wrong it is not rape. It was consensual without the parents’ approval—because if it were rape, then the man would be executed.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 04:57 AM   #122
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,977
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
But what must be considered is that she cannot marry a divorced man.
Then why allow him to divorce at all? The point of divorce is to dissolve a failed marriage so that someone can pursue other paths, including a new marriage. Wouldn't God rather that people be in happy couples?

Quote:
Well as the Creator surely he has an interest in how people live
That does not follow at all.

Quote:
if they live contrary to his likes, then he must interject.
Again, even if I give you the previous one, this does not follow, either.

Quote:
He has given laws that when adhered to will yield the best way for people to enjoy life.
Yeah, why did he give laws, anyway? Why not just allow people to live their lives as they see fit, maybe dropping in once in a while to have a chat? What's all this authoritarian nonsense?

Quote:
Not only that, God enjoys the fellowship of his creation, this fellowship involves keeping his laws, but further to that, a rejection of his laws will result in enmity with him, which then determines one eternal abode.
That's a nice way of saying that your god is vain and vindictive. Real friends and father figures don't act this way.

Quote:
Divorce is an act of violence
You said that, but I've already explained that it's nonsense. Repeating it won't make it any more true.

Quote:
It is love turned to hatred.
No, it's not. Plenty of marriages are broken up by mutual consent. And if it's turned to hatred, why would you want the couple to stay together?

Quote:
What about the children?
I would think that they wouldn't be very happy in a marriage turned to hatred. Would you?

Quote:
So as we are dealing with the END times
This has not been established.
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 04:58 AM   #123
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,977
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well in that case prepare for eternity in hell.
You guys love that, don't you? You love the idea that people who aren't like you, who disagree with you, who belittle your fragile feelings will one day be punished harshly. You relish the thought that others will suffer for it.

Doesn't that make you sadists?
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 04:59 AM   #124
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,977
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Wrong it is not rape. It was consensual without the parents’ approval—because if it were rape, then the man would be executed.
That's a nice bit of twisted logic, there. The text does not mention consent at all. You added that.
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 05:50 AM   #125
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,269
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Wrong it is not rape. It was consensual without the parents’ approval—because if it were rape, then the man would be executed.
Ah, THAT'S how you get around your earlier claim that rape victims must marry their rapists. You must have realized what an abominable position that was to take, or made it around people in real life who were horrified.

It's too bad you have to flat out lie about what the verse is about in order to and make that claim.

The passage is about a rape victim being forced to marry her rapist if he pays the silver. There are MULTIPLE people in this thread with the research skills and knowledge of Hebrew needed to delve back into the original Hebrew to demonstrate that, as well as to look at the passage in context. If the verse's context comes into play, you can bet your bottom dollar that your arguments about the context of Peter's dream of the net meaning the verse is about gentiles and not pork and shellfish is going to come up as a means of highlighting the fact that you're perfectly happy to use context when it suits your arguments.

You can venture down this absurd apologetic path if you want Peter, but please keep in mind, you're not going to be able to gaslight your way out of the interpretations of the passage you advocated before nor are you going to convince anyone that your ******** excuses are a better indication of what the text's authors meant than the original Hebrew.
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:09 AM   #126
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,269
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's a nice bit of twisted logic, there. The text does not mention consent at all. You added that.
It's almost as if is knowledge of the Bible is regressing. He's completely forgotten, or is deliberately ignoring the fact that, the passage gives rapists a "get out of stoning free" card if they cough up enough silver to marry the virgin they raped.

He claims to have fond memories of South Africa's apartheid, which was the law from 1948 to 1994. I don't recall him telling us his actual age, but my guess based upon his cultural claims is that he's probably somewhere between 40 and 60, possibly a bit older. This puts him in range for age related dementia or Alzheimer's to start setting in. He claims to have read the entire Bible, yet somehow missed or forgot about the destruction pf Solomon's temple. Now a man who claims his understanding of the Bible is "infallible" is completely changing his interpretation of a verse that was the basis for some very heated discussion in the previous version of this thread.

I'm starting to suspect he may not be trying to gaslight us about his past claims, but has sincerely and honesty forgotten them.
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:11 AM   #127
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,104
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Wrong it is not rape. It was consensual without the parents’ approval—because if it were rape, then the man would be executed.
That reasoning is asinine. Why not look at the words of the passage - which is in a chapter discussing rape - and tell us what you think?

The word taken by translators as indicating rape, rather than mere absence of parental approval, is Strong's Concordance word 8610 taphas תָּפַשׂ. Its occurrences in the Tanakh may be examined here. It is glossed in English as "seized". Now, look at the list of contexts in which that word is found, and tell me whether it refers to forceful sexual violation of a virgin, or to copulation with her consent, but not that of her parents.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:17 AM   #128
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That reasoning is asinine. Why not look at the words of the passage - which is in a chapter discussing rape - and tell us what you think?

The word taken by translators as indicating rape, rather than mere absence of parental approval, is Strong's Concordance word 8610 taphas תָּפַשׂ. Its occurrences in the Tanakh may be examined here. It is glossed in English as "seized". Now, look at the list of contexts in which that word is found, and tell me whether it refers to forceful sexual violation of a virgin, or to copulation with her consent, but not that of her parents.
Regardless--if it were rape the man would of been executed.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:19 AM   #129
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's a nice bit of twisted logic, there. The text does not mention consent at all. You added that.
As I said if it were rape the man would be executed.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:24 AM   #130
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,700
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so—the Creator can institute a change that will not destroy all life as he did in the first demonstration.
First, if Yahweh stopped the planet rotating, the resulting winds would destroy pretty much everything on the planet's surface.
Second, the effects of this event would have been visible world wide - and no one else recorded the stopping of the sun in the sky for a whole day (or noted the increased night). The only way the story works is if the sun is a point light source that circles the Earth.

In other words - you need to establish that the first demonstration happened. the evidence would suggest that Judges is not an accurate source of historical fact.

Quote:
Well that may be what you read—but do not be deceived, that which is written did happen, otherwise it would be a blatant lie, which it is not. Ask Zivan, she certainly will know!!
Zivan, Are you aware of any archeological evidence, or other historical evidence that would substantiate the Conquest of Canaan stories? Apparently, the

We've pointed the lack of substantiation to Paul before, but apparently he needs to be told again by someone different.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:26 AM   #131
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 14,364
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Regardless--if it were rape the man would of been executed.
Not if he pays the 50 shekels to the father and married his victim.

What happens if the woman rapes the man? Your bible is fine with that.

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:27 AM   #132
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,269
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I said if it were rape the man would be executed.

You're wrong. The verse specifies a loophole whereby a rapist who raped a virgin can escape execution by paying the victim's father and marrying her. He's further forbidden from divorcing her.

Repeating the same irrational, wishful, rainbows and unicorns whitewashing of the verse as you're doing doesn't make it so.

Why did you change your mind about the meaning of the verse?

What prompted you to change your mind?

Why are you repeating such an exceptionally absurd interpretation of the verse when the context and language makes it clear you're wrong?
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:39 AM   #133
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
You're wrong. The verse specifies a loophole whereby a rapist who raped a virgin can escape execution by paying the victim's father and marrying her. He's further forbidden from divorcing her.

Repeating the same irrational, wishful, rainbows and unicorns whitewashing of the verse as you're doing doesn't make it so.

Why did you change your mind about the meaning of the verse?

What prompted you to change your mind?

Why are you repeating such an exceptionally absurd interpretation of the verse when the context and language makes it clear you're wrong?
It is the same in this section--Exo 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.
Exo 22:17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to correct halleyscomet's quote; please take care with quote tags.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.

Last edited by Agatha; 2nd November 2016 at 09:44 AM.
Paul Bethke is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:50 AM   #134
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,104
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Regardless--if it were rape the man would of been executed.
Not of he pays the girl's father compensation for the loss of his daughter's virginity. The point that is attempted to be made here is that the sexual morality of the Torah is to a large extent the barbarism characteristic of Early Iron Age pastoral tribes and the inhabitants of ancient walled mountain towns and fortresses ruled by predatory warlords.

"Regardless" of what, anyway? The plain meaning of words used in the passage? Is that how you approach the infallible Word of God?? And you have the effrontery to threaten other people with eternal damnation? Look to your own righteousness rather than that of others, is my advice to you.

Last edited by Craig B; 2nd November 2016 at 06:54 AM.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:52 AM   #135
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
First, if Yahweh stopped the planet rotating, the resulting winds would destroy pretty much everything on the planet's surface.
Second, the effects of this event would have been visible world wide - and no one else recorded the stopping of the sun in the sky for a whole day (or noted the increased night). The only way the story works is if the sun is a point light source that circles the Earth.

In other words - you need to establish that the first demonstration happened. the evidence would suggest that Judges is not an accurate source of historical fact.



Zivan, Are you aware of any archeological evidence, or other historical evidence that would substantiate the Conquest of Canaan stories? Apparently, the

We've pointed the lack of substantiation to Paul before, but apparently he needs to be told again by someone different.
But then I am referring to maybe a greater sign, when the sun went backwards ten hours--Isaiah_38:8 I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.'" So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.

Each step represented one hour, so now this will be something to get the attention of the world---this type of sign will definitely point to YHVH being the Creator---not to speak about the stars falling! Seeing YHVH is the Creator, it should be reasonable for him to do such things, don’t you think so?

So if people want proof there is no alternative—so all this is reserved for the END times--, are you not fortunate to be living in such a time as this?
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:57 AM   #136
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Nasty, you know I can read so why are you so unenlightened
Mr. Bethke:

You have stated outrigtht that you cannot read the sources; you have bragged that you do not need to read the sources; you have demonstrated that your "infallible" "perfect understanding" is based upon version-shopped interpretations of others' translations. (n what way is accetping what yuo say about yourself, and the evidence of your routine approach to your "scriptures", "unenlightened"?

It is, in fact, you who are in thrall to superstition.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
—you see it was like this in the days of Noah, they also ridiculed Noah,
They also ridiculed Bozo the Clown and Lucille Ball; who, unlike Noah, actually existed.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
but the day did come according to the Scriptures, and they were all swept away.

(Luke_17:27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.)
An "event" for which there is no evidence at all; in fact there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that it could not have happened.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It was as they understood it.
Now, this is an interesting bit of dishonesty. You avoided my question, which was this:
Quote:
Do you, personally, think the sun goes around the earth, or the other way 'round?
I am interested in your own, personal opinion. Care to answer?

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not blind can see quite good—what I am saying is that these signs will be repeated, as a result the whole world of humans will see this phenomena at the same time.
1. There's that conflict between "infallibility" and grammar, again...
2. You are the embodiment of the mattean "blind guide", made flesh and bumping into things among us.
3. WHICH "phenomena"? Be specific.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well when the time comes we will see how much of a fairy tale it is—but till the !
Might you be so kind as to explain, from your "perfect understanding", what you, personally, think this sentence fragment means?

There's a lad...

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Yes at the right time I will make the prediction, but first there are some other situations to attend to.
Going to wait until something happens, then claim that as your "prediction"? Tsk, tsk.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 06:58 AM   #137
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Not of he pays the girl's father compensation for the loss of his daughter's virginity. The point that it is attempted to be made here is that the sexual morality of the Torah is to a large extent the barbarism characteristic of Early Iron Age pastoral tribes.

"Regardless" of what, anyway? The plain meaning of words used in the passage? Is that how you approach the infallible Word of God?? And you have the effrontery to threaten other people with eternal damnation? Look to your own safety as well as that of others, is my advice to you.
You still do not understand, that it is not rape---the man would not be let off, he would die.
Deut_21:21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:01 AM   #138
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so—the Creator can institute a change that will not destroy all life as he did in the first demonstration.

Well that may be what you read—but do not be deceived, that which is written did happen, otherwise it would be a blatant lie, which it is not. Ask Zivan, she certainly will know!!
The "Fludde", as "recorded", is a blatant falsehood. It could not have happened the way your scriptures claim it happened, without leaving evidence (which it did not).

The "Exodus", as "recorded", is a blatant falsehood. It could not have happened the way your scriptures claim it happened, without leaving evidence (which it did not).

The "Conquest of Canaan", as "recorded", is a blatant falsehood. It could not have happened the way your scriptures claim it happened, without leaving evidence (which it did not).

You are welcome to provide the missing evidence to the contrary.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 2nd November 2016 at 07:03 AM.
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:06 AM   #139
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
This is why I try not to read the forum while drinking anything.
Inorite?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:10 AM   #140
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,977
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I said if it were rape the man would be executed.
Not according to the text you were quoting.

It's not my fault if the bible is inconsistent.
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:15 AM   #141
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,104
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You still do not understand, that it is not rape---the man would not be let off, he would die.
Deut_21:21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
What has Deut 21:18-21 to do with raping virgins?
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
This is not only irrelevant but preposterous. Are you amusing yourself at our expense, with these ludicrous exegeses of the Word of God, that you have been indulging in?
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:16 AM   #142
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Mr. Bethke:

You have stated outrigtht that you cannot read the sources; you have bragged that you do not need to read the sources; you have demonstrated that your "infallible" "perfect understanding" is based upon version-shopped interpretations of others' translations. (n what way is accetping what yuo say about yourself, and the evidence of your routine approach to your "scriptures", "unenlightened"?

It is, in fact, you who are in thrall to superstition.



They also ridiculed Bozo the Clown and Lucille Ball; who, unlike Noah, actually existed.



An "event" for which there is no evidence at all; in fact there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that it could not have happened.



Now, this is an interesting bit of dishonesty. You avoided my question, which was this:

I am interested in your own, personal opinion. Care to answer?



1. There's that conflict between "infallibility" and grammar, again...
2. You are the embodiment of the mattean "blind guide", made flesh and bumping into things among us.
3. WHICH "phenomena"? Be specific.



Might you be so kind as to explain, from your "perfect understanding", what you, personally, think this sentence fragment means?

There's a lad...



Going to wait until something happens, then claim that as your "prediction"? Tsk, tsk.
No predictions must be made beforehand, not after---it is like this:- Isa_42:9 See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.

Why do you lie—I may not be able to read the different languages in the Scriptures, but there is sufficient commentaries on them which give an adequate understanding of the Scriptures.

The NIV is an excellent translation despite a few sections –so my knowledge of the will of God is excellent, understanding from the translations what the original languages portrayed.

So every person will be judged by the Ten Commands that includes you.
You would not know the rotation of the earth if you were not told. It is not something you worked out your self—so it is pride to take credit for something you were told.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:17 AM   #143
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Wrong it is not rape. It was consensual without the parents’ approval—because if it were rape, then the man would be executed.
Might you be so kind as to demonstrate where in the text, precisely, the issue of "consent" is mentioned?

(This is the problem with not being able to read the texts...)

ETA: capably ninja-ed by a host too numerous to number. Keep up the good work, y'all!
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 2nd November 2016 at 07:54 AM.
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:18 AM   #144
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,269
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It is the same in this section--Exo 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.
Exo 22:17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.
Did you INTENTIONALLY edit my post to make it look like the Exodus verses were the ones I was talking about or did you just screw up in your use of the quote function?

This is the passage you're trying to claims has NOTHING to do with rape:

Quote:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
New International Version (NIV)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
I seem to recall you saying the NIV was "an excellent translation."

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The NIV is an excellent translation despite a few sections –so my knowledge of the will of God is excellent, understanding from the translations what the original languages portrayed.
You're relying heavily upon the fact that a lot of translations are a bit euphemistic about the description of rape.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You still do not understand, that it is not rape---the man would not be let off, he would die.
Deut_21:21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Dude, that's a verse about executing rebellious children.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
New International Version (NIV)

A Rebellious Son
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Last edited by halleyscomet; 2nd November 2016 at 07:42 AM.
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:21 AM   #145
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Regardless--if it were rape the man would of been executed.
That is the problem with deciding what the text must mean, without being able to read what it actually says.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:21 AM   #146
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,104
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So every person will be judged by the Ten Commands that includes you.
You would not know the rotation of the earth if you were not told. It is not something you worked out your self—so it is pride to take credit for something you were told.
It is pride to pay attention to the words of the wise, and to remember the content of their teachings? When you were at school, were you punished for learning your lessons correctly? Perhaps you were - that would explain a lot.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:22 AM   #147
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I said if it were rape the man would be executed.
As I said, that is the problem with deciding what the text must mean, without being able to read what it actually says.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:26 AM   #148
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
But then I am referring to maybe a greater sign, when the sun went backwards ten hours--Isaiah_38:8 I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.'" So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.

Each step represented one hour, so now this will be something to get the attention of the world---this type of sign will definitely point to YHVH being the Creator---not to speak about the stars falling! Seeing YHVH is the Creator, it should be reasonable for him to do such things, don’t you think so?

So if people want proof there is no alternative—so all this is reserved for the END times--, are you not fortunate to be living in such a time as this?
Mr. Bethke: Do you believe the sun goes around the earth, or is it the other way 'round?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:29 AM   #149
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You still do not understand, that it is not rape---the man would not be let off, he would die.
Deut_21:21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Still having the problem of deciding what the text must mean, without being able to read what it actually says. You keep ramifying contradictions...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:30 AM   #150
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,977
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So every person will be judged by the Ten Commands that includes you.
I hope for your sake that you don't have a crucifix with Jesus on it in your home.
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:32 AM   #151
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,269
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I hope for your sake that you don't have a crucifix with Jesus on it in your home.
That depends upon WHICH version of the Ten Commandments he's using:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:33 AM   #152
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,104
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What has Deut 21:18-21 to do with raping virgins?
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
This is not only irrelevant but preposterous. Are you amusing yourself at our expense, with these ludicrous exegeses of the Word of God, that you have been indulging in?
By the way, this passage has a word in common with the one previously discussed. The bolded expression above is our old friend - תָּפַשׂ taphas "seize": Strong's 8610. Now here it refers to someone being taken hold of to be executed by stoning.

So tell us if you think, when used to describe a sexual encounter, it refers to consent or rape.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:41 AM   #153
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,269
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
By the way, this passage has a word in common with the one previously discussed. The bolded expression above is our old friend - תָּפַשׂ taphas "seize": Strong's 8610. Now here it refers to someone being taken hold of to be executed by stoning.

So tell us if you think, when used to describe a sexual encounter, it refers to consent or rape.
I think he's just trying to distract us from his catastrophic failure to grok that Jesus was in the SECOND temple, not Solomon's temple. I'll bet cut-and-paste cherry picking like this works great for him in real life, where people don't have the chance to look up the verses before he moves on to the next nonsense claim.
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:43 AM   #154
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,700
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I said if it were rape the man would be executed.
No, Mosaic Law gives the rapist the opportunity to escape execution in this set of circumstances:

a. The rape takes place in the countryside (presumably to give reasonable doubt to the victim's claim to have called out and no one came to her aid);
b. The rapist is able to pay Daddy 50 shekels of silver for the valuable property that he damaged; and
c. The rapist takes possession of the property he damaged;
d. The rapist accepts that he is not allowed to dispose of this property as he sees fit.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:48 AM   #155
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,700
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
But then I am referring to maybe a greater sign, when the sun went backwards ten hours--Isaiah_38:8 I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.'" So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.

Each step represented one hour, so now this will be something to get the attention of the world---this type of sign will definitely point to YHVH being the Creator---not to speak about the stars falling! Seeing YHVH is the Creator, it should be reasonable for him to do such things, don’t you think so?

So if people want proof there is no alternative—so all this is reserved for the END times--, are you not fortunate to be living in such a time as this?
Again, no other literate society on this planet noticed this event - none. And none of the ones that relied on oral histories did either.

If such an event occurred (the sudden reversal of the rotation of the earth) it would have had devastating consequences on everything on the planet's surface.

The events in Isaiah are fiction. Didn't happen.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:49 AM   #156
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,104
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
No, Mosaic Law gives the rapist the opportunity to escape execution in this set of circumstances:

a. The rape takes place in the countryside (presumably to give reasonable doubt to the victim's claim to have called out and no one came to her aid);
b. The rapist is able to pay Daddy 50 shekels of silver for the valuable property that he damaged; and
c. The rapist takes possession of the property he damaged;
d. The rapist accepts that he is not allowed to dispose of this property as he sees fit.
Like browsing in the bric ŕ brac shelf in the antique shops. "Break it, you've bought it."
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:52 AM   #157
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
No predictions must be made beforehand, not after---it is like this:- Isa_42:9 See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.
Here, then, is your golden opportunity:

Be specific about the "signs" you are predicting. This could be fun.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Why do you lie...
Mr. Bethke, I will accept your apology. It is, in fact, you, yourself, who has made it clear that you not only cannot read the texts, making you dependent upon the interpretations of others' translations, you floccinaucinilihilipilificate that ability, holding it in no regard.

You boast that your "infallible" "perfect understanding" is based upon commentaries and translations, from versions among which you cherry-pick.

And to think that "You will not bear false witness" is among what you try to call "the Ten Words"...tsk, tsk.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
...I may not be able to read the different languages in the Scriptures, but there is sufficient commentaries on them which give an adequate understanding of the Scriptures.
Your "infallibility" continues to struggle with grammar, dunnit?

As to "sufficient understanding", just look at the problem you are having because you wish the text said something it manifestly does not, just above, with your decision to interpolate the concept of "consent" where it is not to be found.

Tsk, tsk.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The NIV is an excellent translation despite a few sections –so my knowledge of the will of God is excellent, understanding from the translations what the original languages portrayed.
...which is why you had to resort to the Israel Bible to support what you wanted a passage to say (what you wished it said), and are helpless to explain your problem with misusing (for instance) "HASHEM[sic]" from that source.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So every person will be judged by the Ten Commands that includes you.
Oh, my. See "bearing false witness", above. I expect your apology.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You would not know the rotation of the earth if you were not told. It is not something you worked out your self—so it is pride to take credit for something you were told.
Odd.

Why do you believe that "ƴ ͤ Fludde" happened, if not that you think you were told it did?

Why do you believe that the "Conquest of Canaan" happened, if not that you think you were told it did?

Why do you believe that the "Exodus" happened, if not that you think you were told it did?

Why do you keep telling people things, if not in thee hopes that you will be believed?

BTW: you are still avoiding the question: Do you, personally, think the sun goes around the earth, or is it the other way 'round?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:54 AM   #158
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,269
Deuteronomy 22:28 in multiple translations:

http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-28.htm

Quote:
New International Version
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

New Living Translation
"Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered,

English Standard Version
“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

New American Standard Bible
"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

King James Bible
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
If a man encounters a young woman, a virgin who is not engaged, takes hold of her and rapes her, and they are discovered,

International Standard Version
"However, if a man meets a girl who isn't engaged to be married, and he seizes her, rapes her, and is later found out,

NET Bible
Suppose a man comes across a virgin who is not engaged and overpowers and rapes her and they are discovered.

New Heart English Bible
If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is what you must do when a man rapes a virgin who isn't engaged. When the crime is discovered,

JPS Tanakh 1917
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

New American Standard 1977
“If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

Jubilee Bible 2000
When a man finds a damsel that is a virgin who is not betrothed and lays hold on her and lies with her, and they are found,

King James 2000 Bible
If a man find a young woman that is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

American King James Version
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

American Standard Version
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Douay-Rheims Bible
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not espoused, and taking her, lie with her, and the matter come to judgment :

Darby Bible Translation
If a man find a damsel, a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found,

English Revised Version
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Webster's Bible Translation
If a man shall find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

World English Bible
If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Young's Literal Translation
'When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,
Paul is arguing that "lay hold on her" is the same as consent without parental approval, even though other translations render it as "raped."

While shakab does not ALWAYS refer to rape, the greater context of the verse makes it clear what is being discussed:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...Deuteronomy+22

Quote:
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Notice how a man who rapes a woman who is betrothed is put to death. Exceptions are made for the victim if she could have screamed out for help. The verse that Paul Bethke insists is NOT about rape comes immediately after discussion of rape and creates an exception for the rape of a woman who is NOT betrothed.

Now, I will point out that modern apologists argue that this passages does not condone rape, but offers a regrettable legal recourse for cases where it happens. Paul Bethke is, as far as I can tell, alone in the world in is peculiar interpretation of the passage.

Last edited by halleyscomet; 2nd November 2016 at 07:57 AM.
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:56 AM   #159
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I think he's just trying to distract us from his catastrophic failure to grok that Jesus was in the SECOND temple, not Solomon's temple. I'll bet cut-and-paste cherry picking like this works great for him in real life, where people don't have the chance to look up the verses before he moves on to the next nonsense claim.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2016, 07:59 AM   #160
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Not according to the text you were quoting.

It's not my fault if the bible is inconsistent.
If the man forced the girl it would be rape---if the girl was willing, then it would not be rape.
So it shows that the girl was willing--but the father may not approve, so he retained the right to prevent the contract being drawn up.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:45 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.