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Old 7th March 2017, 08:21 AM   #201
meccanoman
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
There are squillions of such filters in Photoshop. They can make pretty much anything look like anything you want. I wouldn't take the blindest bit of notice of the artifacts produced by a cheap (free) image manipulation programme. If you think you can justify this, send me an image of the shroud and tell me what you want it to show, and I'll send it back showing just exactly that. You want it to look like an impressionist painting, perhaps, or a black and white pencil sketch? Maybe you want it to look like it was done with charcoal. All do-able in seconds.
That was my first thought, MikeG, namely that huge liberties had been taken with the image so as to make the result a joke. But that's not the case, as one can check out for oneself. First, look closely at the unedited image. Look for all the obvious particles, and you will see the same, greatly improved in the Zeke- edited version. Then look for particles that are at the limits of visibility in the unedited version, and they are clearly visible on the other. Then, the critical test, look for fainter particles in the edited version, and you will OFTEN find they are JUST visible on the unedited version. In other words, Zeke is not generating artefacts - it is accentuating what is already there. It's basically a means of adding contrast that fortuitously works selectively on the particles in the unedited image.

So how does it pull off that trick? Answer: I haven't a clue, except to say it adds a little grey as can be seen by applying Zeke to an additive colour-mixing chart.



Top: unedited. Bottom: after applying Microsoft Window 10's Zeke filter'

Very, very subtle, would you not agree? Is there a colour specialist in the house, one who can explain why the addition of faint grey can produce so dramatic results, showing up the particle-riddled nature of the Shroud image. And not just for flaking-off blood imprints (expected) but for body image too (UNEXPECTED, at least for those who entertain notions of ' miraculous flashes of radiation' as distinct from homely medieval prone-to-flaking-off imprints with oven-roasted kitchen ingredients ?).
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Old 7th March 2017, 08:29 AM   #202
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Never mind a colour specialist......I am an architect. I use Photoshop all the time. Filters all produce their own artifacts, and they can make an image look like anything you want them to look like. If you are having to rely on an image filter, you've got nothing.
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Old 7th March 2017, 08:44 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Here you go:

http://i.imgur.com/I2uIbzz.jpg

The Doric columns on the flanks are now vertical, as they should be, and the heraldic shields are no longer lying on their sides. The cross in the middle now makes sense as well.
OK. My presentation may have been less-than-ideal (though it's still an image of the same badge that can be viewed horizontally or vertically!). I did consider rotating through 90 degrees, but last time I tried transplanting images that had already appeared on my own site, using WordPress's software to alter size or orientation, they failed to appear here as images, appearing instead as 'self-publicizing' URL links instead, inviting the sky to fall on this hapless or perceived-as-devious self-serving commentator. So forgive me if I display images "as is", being somewhat averse to undeserved internet brickbats. Having said that, please continue to lob the deserved ones...
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Old 7th March 2017, 08:48 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
........So forgive me if I display images "as is", being somewhat averse to undeserved internet brickbats. Having said that, please continue to lob the deserved ones...
Not at all. I draw no inference from the way it is displayed, as I said. I just pointed out that you were hanging the Mona Lisa sideways, so to speak.
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Old 7th March 2017, 08:54 AM   #205
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Sometimes you can't tell

https://news.artnet.com/exhibitions/...de-down-683900

"New York’s Museum of Modern Art opened the doors to a new exhibition, “The Last Works of Matisse: Large Cut Gouaches,” unaware that one of the works, Henri Matisse’s Le Bateau, was hanging upside down."

Sometimes it seems, nobody knows:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...xhibition.html

"Despite the artist's signature, the correct way to display the works have never been agreed because there are no photographs available to indicate for certain how Rothko wished the works to be hung. Further complicating the issue is which of the two possible horizontal displays is the correct one, creating a risk of hanging the paintings upside-down."
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Old 7th March 2017, 09:02 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Never mind a colour specialist......I am an architect. I use Photoshop all the time. Filters all produce their own artifacts, and they can make an image look like anything you want them to look like. If you are having to rely on an image filter, you've got nothing.
But I did not accept the Zeke filter uncritically. I submitted it to some simple tests that I've summarised, showing it does not generate artefacts. It accentuates selectively what's already present, and via an exceedingly subtle means, namely addition of a pale grey filter, shown by the white border and central zone on the input image slightly off-white.

Dare I say that when one's dealing with a unique one-off image like the Shroud, with no back-story as to where or how it came into existence, one cannot go instantly dismissing new research tools that provide some insight, or which merely help to generate new hypotheses. Provided the latter are testable, then one's one's entitled in my opinion to be open and frank, especially on real-time internet reporting, as to the basis of those hypotheses, even at the risk of laying oneself open to criticism that they allegedly generate 'artefacts'.

What is the Shroud itself if not an artefact? What's to stop one using one modern artefact to winkle open the medieval technology deployed for another? Everything else has failed, so why not take "liberties"?
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Old 7th March 2017, 09:05 AM   #207
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Seriously, a manipulated photo is not going to win a case in front of a metaphorical jury.
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Old 7th March 2017, 09:27 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Seriously, a manipulated photo is not going to win a case in front of a metaphorical jury.
Ah, but you reveal a common misconception there, namely that the building of a scientific case is the same as that for a court of law. It's not, if only that there are no time-constraints in science, nor gullible juries that can be easily swayed one way or another. (Judges have to be quick to spot and rule out "inadmissible evidence").

Please remember that I personally have no direct access to the Shroud, and have to rely on such photographic evidence as has been released into the public domain (there's allegedly much that hasn't!). Were I to have access, I would waste no time in searching for the surviving 'particulate' evidence that preceded the allegedly oh-so-subtle Shroud image that has so far has escaped the notice of STURP and other Shroud investigators.

Maybe Walter McCrone was right after all, when claiming the body image was particulate, even if unaware of the distinction between particulate and stain-like post--particulate. Maybe he missed the faint yellow stain that remains after a particulate precursor has partly or completely worn away, seeing only the parts of fibres where it hasn't flaked away.

Faint yellow background stains do arguably show up on those ZEKE-edited pictures of body image areas!
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Old 7th March 2017, 09:30 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
I can't speak for all scientists, working or retired, but this one at any rate refuses to have his style cramped by being forced permanently to wear a 'falsify-first' straitjacket imposed by metaphysicists.
Straightjacket my ass. If it can't be falsified, then it's not a statement of fact but one of faith.
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Old 7th March 2017, 09:33 AM   #210
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Mecca,

I think that I completely agree with you, but I have to say that I don't completely understand what you are saying. Would you say that the number of potential microcakes is infinite?

-I'll be back
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Old 7th March 2017, 09:50 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Straightjacket my ass. If it can't be falsified, then it's not a statement of fact but one of faith.
Read, or re-read Watson's "The Double Helix".There were existing facts that were generally known and accepted, like base-pair equivalence (A=T, and G=C) simply crying out for a simple explanation. Facts alone tell you little or nothing. It required an article of faith on Crick and Watson's part to rationalize that simple bit of chemical arithmetic, recognizing that most if not all existing biological polymers (protein, starch, cellulose etc) existed as hydrogen-bonded helices. All it took was another 'act of faith' to recognize that DNA was a DOUBLE helix with complementary nucleotide base pairs (thus A=T, C=G). The rest as they say is history.

Never knock 'acts of faith' in science. They are better known as hypotheses. The knack is to filter out those that are testable, preferably in practice, like first thing on Tuesday morning when the technician has sobered up from the weekend, but testability in principle will do for starters if completely stumped for alternative ideas.

Watson and Crick were helped by the fact that there was not one and only one sample of authentic DNA kept in a glass case in a Turin cathedral.
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Old 7th March 2017, 09:52 AM   #212
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Which one are you? Watson or Crick?
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Old 7th March 2017, 09:58 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Mecca,

I think that I completely agree with you, but I have to say that I don't completely understand what you are saying. Would you say that the number of potential microcakes is infinite?

-I'll be back
Nope. Each particle of white flour, settling on the oil-smeared subject, is a potential 'micro-cake', provided it transfers to the wet linen when the latter is pressed down onto the oil/flour-coated subject.

Since the amount and number of sprinkled flour particles is finite (albeit large - many thousands) then the number of micro-cakes will likewise be finite.

Thank you for your interest - and qualified support.
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Old 7th March 2017, 10:03 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Which one are you? Watson or Crick?
Neither. I'm Smith. (It's not generally known that Smith was the fellow-frequenter of the Eagle pub in 1950s Cambridge who supplied Watson and Crick with all their best ideas... ).
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Old 7th March 2017, 10:04 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Mecca,

I think that I completely agree with you, but I have to say that I don't completely understand what you are saying. Would you say that the number of potential microcakes is infinite?

-I'll be back
Naughty carlitos, stop Jabba-ing that poor man.
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Old 7th March 2017, 12:37 PM   #216
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Just whatinthehell is "authentic DNA"?
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Old 7th March 2017, 12:41 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Read, or re-read Watson's "The Double Helix".There were existing facts that were generally known and accepted, like base-pair equivalence (A=T, and G=C) simply crying out for a simple explanation. Facts alone tell you little or nothing. It required an article of faith on Crick and Watson's part to rationalize that simple bit of chemical arithmetic, recognizing that most if not all existing biological polymers (protein, starch, cellulose etc) existed as hydrogen-bonded helices. All it took was another 'act of faith' to recognize that DNA was a DOUBLE helix with complementary nucleotide base pairs (thus A=T, C=G). The rest as they say is history.
What in the blazes does this have to do with falsifiability?

Quote:
Never knock 'acts of faith' in science.
Oh, I think I will.
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Old 7th March 2017, 12:53 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Just whatinthehell is "authentic DNA"?
It seems self explanatory in that post. It is the stuff that was "kept in a glass case in a Turin cathedral." all other DNA is fake!
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Old 7th March 2017, 01:49 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
That was my first thought, MikeG, namely that huge liberties had been taken with the image so as to make the result a joke. But that's not the case, as one can check out for oneself. First, look closely at the unedited image. Look for all the obvious particles, and you will see the same, greatly improved in the Zeke- edited version. Then look for particles that are at the limits of visibility in the unedited version, and they are clearly visible on the other. Then, the critical test, look for fainter particles in the edited version, and you will OFTEN find they are JUST visible on the unedited version. In other words, Zeke is not generating artefacts - it is accentuating what is already there. It's basically a means of adding contrast that fortuitously works selectively on the particles in the unedited image.

So how does it pull off that trick? Answer: I haven't a clue, except to say it adds a little grey as can be seen by applying Zeke to an additive colour-mixing chart.

https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehy...ng-or-zeke.png

Top: unedited. Bottom: after applying Microsoft Window 10's Zeke filter'

Very, very subtle, would you not agree? Is there a colour specialist in the house, one who can explain why the addition of faint grey can produce so dramatic results, showing up the particle-riddled nature of the Shroud image. And not just for flaking-off blood imprints (expected) but for body image too (UNEXPECTED, at least for those who entertain notions of ' miraculous flashes of radiation' as distinct from homely medieval prone-to-flaking-off imprints with oven-roasted kitchen ingredients ?).
Depends on the nature of the grey that has been added, but I see nothing remarkable in the samples provided.

You might be simply perceiving the colours differently. To assess that try this test. http://xritephoto.com/online-color-test-challenge

Please post your score.
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Old 7th March 2017, 02:15 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What in the blazes does this have to do with falsifiability?



Oh, I think I will.
There was an extensive discussion earlier on this thread on the role of falsification in science. It ended with me saying I'd gone to some trouble to address it, but felt it wasn't the be-all-and-end-all, as some logicians and metaphysicists would have us believe, and indeed could be a needless distraction, certainly in the early stages of a new project, where the priority is to make and test hypotheses. So I wasn't dodging your question, far from it, but noticed your deployment of the term "faith" as if it were total anathema to science. Not so. The DNA double helix story was adduced as evidence that faith can in fact play an important role in narrowing down the options for hypothesizing and new research. Watson and Crick had faith that DNA would have a helical structure, long before they had tangible evidence, and that led them to speculate usefully on what features the X-ray diffraction photograph would display, supporting their 'hunch' i.e. act of faith. All it took was a brief glimpse of Rosalind Franklin's X-ray pictures of a particular variant of DNA to send them into overdrive, rushing back to Cambridge to construct models with balls and sticks, showing that the secret was the base-pairing between a purine and a pyrimidine base to make each rung of the ladder.

Did either of them lose sleep over whether the idea of inheritance being controlled by a particular polynucleotide with a genetic code, dependent on the sequence of just two base-pairs, AT and GC, was falsifiable? I doubt it somehow. They were focused on the positive aspects of their model, not dreaming up possible fatal flaws that risked consigning it to the dustbin of history, maybe prematurely for lack of sufficient background data.

There's a time and a place for everything. The time for falsification is later rather than sooner, when the parameters of a new hypothesis or theory are reasonably well appreciated.
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Old 7th March 2017, 02:33 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Depends on the nature of the grey that has been added, but I see nothing remarkable in the samples provided.

You might be simply perceiving the colours differently. To assess that try this test. http://xritephoto.com/online-color-test-challenge

Please post your score.
It's possible you have misunderstood what I meant by "dramatic results". Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. The dramatic result is not the effect of Zeke on the colour charts - quite the opposite in fact, where it merely causes a slight dulling of the primary colours. The dramatic effect is on that earlier image of the Shroud, where it brings up a highly speckled appearance that is scarcely noticeable before applying the filter. Those speckles are NOT an artefact since the major ones at least, and by implication, the minor ones too, are visible (just!) before applying Zeke.The important signal is there, but masked it seems by background 'noise'.

Zeke is one of those gift horses that should not be looked at too closely in the mouth... Dentition ain't everything in the horse trade if the immediate need is simply to get quickly from A to B.
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Old 7th March 2017, 02:45 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
It's possible you have misunderstood what I meant by "dramatic results". Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. The dramatic result is not the effect of Zeke on the colour charts - quite the opposite in fact, where it merely causes a slight dulling of the primary colours. The dramatic effect is on that earlier image of the Shroud, where it brings up a highly speckled appearance that is scarcely noticeable before applying the filter. Those speckles are NOT an artefact since the major ones at least, and by implication, the minor ones too, are visible (just!) before applying Zeke.The important signal is there, but masked it seems by background 'noise'.

Zeke is one of those gift horses that should not be looked at too closely in the mouth... Dentition ain't everything in the horse trade if the immediate need is simply to get quickly from A to B.
Zeke is not a professional level tool, and you cannot extract more data from any image than is already there. For preference, I use photoshop and have done so for many years (20 if you must know). I posted the test because one in twelve males has a serious colour perception issue and few will achieve a perfect score on that test. I notice you avoided it.
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Old 7th March 2017, 10:43 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Zeke is not a professional level tool, and you cannot extract more data from any image than is already there. For preference, I use photoshop and have done so for many years (20 if you must know). I posted the test because one in twelve males has a serious colour perception issue and few will achieve a perfect score on that test. I notice you avoided it.
This is not primarily about subjective aspects of colour perception, since I show before and after photos, and invite folk here to spot the obvious objective differences, arguably not so much in colour (though that may assist) so much as CONTRAST. The particles to which I refer are visible for the most part in BOTH before and after images, especially in the contrast-enhanced Shroud Scope pictures, so are NOT artefacts of the Zeke makeover.

Nope, I did not use your more 'professional' PhotoShop, but Microsoft Office Picture Manager instead, reporting results almost 5 years ago under the title: "Shroud Scope 10: my very own gallery of 20 close-up views of the Shroud – all lightly photo-edited for optimised colour-differentiation". That is one of my most frequently visited postings, its main advantage over unedited Shroud Scope being that it differentiates between blood and body image, entirely by contrast and coincidental colour, blood being more purplish, body image more tan coloured.

Now you may consider MS Office to be less "professional" than PhotoShop, but that term "professional" can be misleading if you don't mind my saying in the context of science where one takes nothing at face value, and where in my case one supplements one's findings by trying to find precisely what the software is doing to produce its useful discrimination between one image and another, e.g. blood/body image, and now particulate/non-particulate.

To cite just one example, I reported a later RGB analysis to find precisely how changes in contrast were able to produce useful colour changes, real or not, that made for better discrimination. Two main conclusions emerged. First, when you alter contrast on a colour image, you (coincidentally) alter the balance between yellow and blue, analogous to white/black for a B/W only image (yellow being the additive mix of red and green). Second, I realized on analysing the washed-out looking Shroud Scope images with their unhelpful purplish-hue that someone must have taken the Shroud Scope image from Durante (2002) and purposely REDUCED contrast to make them look the way they did. I put that suggestion directly to Mario Latendresse, the Canadian IT specialist/sindonologist who created Shroud Scope. He denied having done that himself, but volunteered no further comment.

While penning this comment, I've had an idea. In the next few days, I'll go back to my June 2012 posting with the 20 contrast-enhanced images, and give each a Zeke makeover, adding the result as an appendix. Nope, I don't expect to suddenly morph into a colour "professional" and will no doubt attract further flak for my choice of software. I'm content to be seen as a Shroud researcher who chooses what he considers the simplest, appropriate tools for making a valid scientific point, preferably tools that are available to anyone and everyone online, making it possible for them to check out and hopefully reproduce my findings.

I have a new term to suggest for the Shroud body image. It's "biphasic". It's either particulate (read "crud"), or non-particulate (yellow background stain) or a mixture of the two, depending on which image fibres one happens to sample and detach for microscopic and chemical study. McCrone only saw the crud, and interpreted it as inorganic iron oxides etc. Di Lazzaro only sees the superficial stain and interprets it as a radiation scorch. I see the end result of imprinting and baking thousands of oil/flour microcakes on linen in situ!
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Old 7th March 2017, 11:32 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Zeke is not a professional level tool, and you cannot extract more data from any image than is already there. For preference, I use photoshop and have done so for many years (20 if you must know). I posted the test because one in twelve males has a serious colour perception issue and few will achieve a perfect score on that test. I notice you avoided it.
Dude. That test is a royal pain in the ass. Just ordering the first row is more effort than I'm going to spend unless you're paying at least skilled laborer wages for my trouble.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Shroud is an obvious medieval artifact. I don't know what meccanoman is on about, but it seems incredibly tiresome.

Not as tiresome as that test, though. The only way I'd do that test is if my physician sat me down and told me that it was the only way I'd ever get laid again. Or if I was so bored that it was either that test or cutting myself, to pass the time.
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Old 7th March 2017, 11:55 PM   #225
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As I say, I'm no expert where colour is concerned, but have picked up a thing or two about CONTRAST via experimenting.

At the risk of being ever more tiresome, here's a possible explanation as to how Zeke works.

First, a reminder about contrast changes in two situations. First, with B/W pictures, if you want more contrast, you make pixels that are more than the mean level of whiteness more white, and those less than the mean level of blackness more black. If it's a colour image, then substitute yellow for white, and blue for black.

Might Zeke be a hybrid? In other words, it takes anything that is darker with more blue than yellow and makes them more BLACK, rather than more blue. That would explain the white background turning a pale grey. Any slightly darker than background particles are made BLACKER rather than bluer (or browner in mixture with red and green) greatly increasing their visibility against background.

Just a thought. (How should one pronounce "Zeke" btw? Is it Zeek or Zekkay?)
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Old 8th March 2017, 12:14 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
......Faint yellow background stains do arguably show up on those ZEKE-edited pictures of body image areas!
What else do you want to "show up"? I can make almost anything show up on the image with just a click or two in Photoshop. The results from this would be just as valid as from the crappy freebie image manipulation programme you are using.

To aid focus, I will only read one paragraph of any response. No wall of text is going to persuade me that applying a filter of any description to a photo is going to produce anything of any value.
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Old 8th March 2017, 12:53 AM   #227
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Here's another before v after image:



Zeke has not enhanced the Presidents. But look what it's done to the mountain faces in the background, top left and top right, making them look less like heaps of cow dollop, more like real rock faces.

How's it done that? By adding contrast, promoting tiny differences in texture to make them bolder, easier to see against background. Nope, Zeke is NOT creating meaningless artefacts. I say it's an invaluable research tool, given we have only the one Shroud, and need to extract as much information from it as we can.

The important thing is to validate Zeke using standard known images, something I've made a start on with that Mt.Rushmore picture.

Request: let me know if any new artefacts are spotted, i.e. which have no visible counterpart in the original picture.
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Old 8th March 2017, 01:02 AM   #228
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I've no intention of doing any such thing. I'm just keeping a watching brief for erroneous and over-blown claims.

I would ask you to consider how much credibility your interesting baked flour idea will have if it is associated with a puerile "look what I see if I stick a crappy filter over a low res photo from the internet" argument.
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Old 8th March 2017, 01:13 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I've no intention of doing any such thing. I'm just keeping a watching brief for erroneous and over-blown claims.

I would ask you to consider how much credibility your interesting baked flour idea will have if it is associated with a puerile "look what I see if I stick a crappy filter over a low res photo from the internet" argument.
What you describe as a "low res photo from the internet" has a history that belies your put-down description. First I went to the Shroud Scope photoarchive of Durante 2002 colour images. I first increased magnification, stopping just short of obvious pixellation, then improved the contrast using 4 of the contrast (not colour!) controls on my MS Office Picture Manager. That alone was sufficient to show up the particle field in virtually all body image regions that to the best of my knowledge has never been commented on previously. The final step was to apply Zeke, which as seen earlier greatly accentuates the particles without creating new artefacts.

I rest my case: Zeke has opened up a new window on the Shroud, showing the image to be biphasic. That applies incidentally to both body image AND blood (or "blood").

You read it here first.
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Old 8th March 2017, 01:17 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
......I rest my case: Zeke has opened up a new window on the Shroud, showing the image to be biphasic.......
Bang goes any credibility for any of your claims.





MS Office Picture Manager!?!

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Old 8th March 2017, 02:30 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
There was an extensive discussion earlier on this thread on the role of falsification in science. It ended with me saying I'd gone to some trouble to address it, but felt it wasn't the be-all-and-end-all, as some logicians and metaphysicists would have us believe, and indeed could be a needless distraction, certainly in the early stages of a new project, where the priority is to make and test hypotheses.

<snip>

There's a time and a place for everything. The time for falsification is later rather than sooner, when the parameters of a new hypothesis or theory are reasonably well appreciated.

If time or money is of any concern in an endeavor, a test or experiment that clearly disproves a hypothesis is greatly valued and the sooner the better. If it's your idea, your pride might take a little hit but a team player will take it in stride for the good of the organization.

At home in your kitchen, priorities and goals might be different; such a test might deprive you of hours of pleasure exploring the possibilities.
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Old 8th March 2017, 02:32 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
What you describe as a "low res photo from the internet" has a history that belies your put-down description. First I went to the Shroud Scope photoarchive of Durante 2002 colour images. I first increased magnification, stopping just short of obvious pixellation...
So, low resolution it is.
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Old 8th March 2017, 02:47 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
What you describe as a "low res photo from the internet" has a history that belies your put-down description. First I went to the Shroud Scope photoarchive of Durante 2002 colour images. I first increased magnification, stopping just short of obvious pixellation, then improved the contrast using 4 of the contrast (not colour!) controls on my MS Office Picture Manager. That alone was sufficient to show up the particle field in virtually all body image regions that to the best of my knowledge has never been commented on previously. The final step was to apply Zeke, which as seen earlier greatly accentuates the particles without creating new artefacts.

I rest my case: Zeke has opened up a new window on the Shroud, showing the image to be biphasic. That applies incidentally to both body image AND blood (or "blood").

You read it here first.
So you used a lo-res image, zoomed in to just the point of pixel visibility (the pixels are still there BTW), fiddled with sliders you didn't understand until you got a result you liked that you could interpret however you liked.

Do you have even the vaguest clue how image compression works? or what compression artefacts are? or how they originate?

Do you understand that you are using the exact same methodology as the moon hoax people use to show glass towers and cities on the moon?
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Old 8th March 2017, 02:47 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Maybe Walter McCrone was right after all, when claiming the body image was particulate, even if unaware of the distinction between particulate and stain-like post--particulate. Maybe he missed the faint yellow stain that remains after a particulate precursor has partly or completely worn away, seeing only the parts of fibres where it hasn't flaked away.

Let me assure you Dr. McCrone knew the difference between a particle and a stain under a microscope. If you would take the time to read his paper, you would know he noted yellowish discoloration (staining) of the shroud fibers from the image areas, in the process of analyzing the the chromophore particles.
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Last edited by ferd burfle; 8th March 2017 at 03:00 AM. Reason: Clarification of staining
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Old 8th March 2017, 04:44 AM   #235
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OK, I've started to append the before-and- after Zeke images to my much clicked-upon 2012 posting, which if nothing else should demonstrate the importance I attach to this specific colour filter.

Sorry if folk here (well, some at any rate) consider it pseudoscience.

Accusing others, or being accused of pseudoscience is part of the territory where new scientific research is concerned. I'm quietly confident that Zeke provides the answer to much that has previously eluded Shroud investigators. Let's see how things pan out...

It'll be interesting to see whether Zeke rears its ugly head at the forthcoming International Shroud conference, scheduled for July 18 at the TRAC Center, Pasco, Tri- Cities, Washington State, USA (co-organizers Bob Rucker and Mark Antonacci. Given its accompanying literature, promoting nuclear radiation-based imaging from both co-organizers, I'd guess not, but one must always live in hope (even if one's emails go unanswered!)
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Old 8th March 2017, 04:52 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
........Sorry if folk here (well, some at any rate) consider it pseudoscience.......
It doesn't rise to that level, I'm afraid. Really, get some independent advice on this before you commit to something which will only cause you deep embarassment.
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Old 8th March 2017, 04:56 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
OK, I've started to append the before-and- after Zeke images to my much clicked-upon 2012 posting, which if nothing else should demonstrate the importance I attach to this specific colour filter.

Sorry if folk here (well, some at any rate) consider it pseudoscience.
It is pseudoscience.

Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Accusing others, or being accused of pseudoscience is part of the territory where new scientific research is concerned. I'm quietly confident that Zeke provides the answer to much that has previously eluded Shroud investigators. Let's see how things pan out...
Well you shouldn't be. Zeke is not a professional level tool, it is a vanity tool for amateurs to fiddle with their photographs at home. It is in no way applicable to the task you propose.

Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
It'll be interesting to see whether Zeke rears its ugly head at the forthcoming International Shroud conference, scheduled for July 18 at the TRAC Center, Pasco, Tri- Cities, Washington State, USA (co-organizers Bob Rucker and Mark Antonacci. Given its accompanying literature, promoting nuclear radiation-based imaging from both co-organizers, I'd guess not, but one must always live in hope (even if one's emails go unanswered!)
If it does, it will render whoever raises it as a laughing stock.
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Old 8th March 2017, 07:09 AM   #238
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As the man said: "Wait and see".
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Old 8th March 2017, 07:16 AM   #239
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You have one strand to your argument which may or may not be really interesting and plausible (the baked flour stuff). The other, imaging, is utter bollocks. You put at risk any interest you might generate in the former by sticking doggedly to the latter. Only the worst kind of cranks would give any credence whatever to your imaging nonsense..........do you really want to put yourself in with "life on Mars" nutters?
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Old 8th March 2017, 07:29 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by meccanoman View Post
Did either of them lose sleep over whether the idea of inheritance being controlled by a particular polynucleotide with a genetic code, dependent on the sequence of just two base-pairs, AT and GC, was falsifiable? I doubt it somehow.
Probably not, because they managed to make it falsifiable.

Look, this isn't complicated: everything that exists can be imagined not to exist within a certain set of parameters. "I ate pizza yesterday" is falsifiable because there's a way to find out, in real life, that I didn't. Look through my trash, my intestins, my blood, my bills, the local pizza shops, etc.

Every true statement has this.
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