ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th February 2017, 09:06 PM   #41
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,561
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know no other way than to be confrontational to religion's absurdities and it's atrocities. This doesn’t mean I have anything against people who believe in mythologies. I see them as victims as well.

But bad ideas whether they be in physics, chemistry or religion require sunlight. For far too long religion has enjoyed this ridiculous untouchable status. Ridiculous ideas are meant to be ridiculed. If you told me that the Earth was flat, that lobotomy was a beneficial medical procedure or that vaccines should be avoided, it would be imperative to refute these positions.

The truth is hard.
Of course you don't because you have failed to actually put together an actual argument that is not either a juvenile insult or the bald assertion of your own belief that religion bad.

You read that us Supreme Court opinion yet?

It might take something more than an antitheist ridiculing to understand.

(I am well aware that he did not read it. Revenue equals business, that is about technical as it is going to get from the antireligion folks around here)
__________________
don't let your friends deny Soviet Genocide.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2017, 09:20 PM   #42
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,561
Great thread.

I hope it was a real eye opener for some folks to see how quickly anti-religion sentiment can abuse critical thinking and end up with nothing but spittle soaked insults and abuse.
__________________
don't let your friends deny Soviet Genocide.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2017, 09:35 PM   #43
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 20,512
The main effect of atheism is insufferable smugness, which is thankfully confined to their safe spaces. With the occasional exception, of course. Richard Dawkins, for example.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2017, 09:51 PM   #44
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12,058
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Of course you don't because you have failed to actually put together an actual argument that is not either a juvenile insult or the bald assertion of your own belief that religion bad.

You read that us Supreme Court opinion yet?

It might take something more than an antitheist ridiculing to understand.

(I am well aware that he did not read it. Revenue equals business, that is about technical as it is going to get from the antireligion folks around here)
I have read it. That doesn't mean it is a correct ruling. Neither was Dred Scott, Koramatsu, Plessy v. Ferguson or Citizens United. That occasionally churches help people doesn't mean that their main purpose is to enrich the churches. Just as in every business, it is profit that is really the concern.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2017, 09:54 PM   #45
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12,058
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Great thread.

I hope it was a real eye opener for some folks to see how quickly anti-religion sentiment can abuse critical thinking and end up with nothing but spittle soaked insults and abuse.
Oh sing us a song. There were no insults. That you find it insulting is your own personal issue. Quoting a Supreme Court case doesn't constitute critical thinking. Try again.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2017, 10:23 PM   #46
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 2,941
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Oh sing us a song. There were no insults. That you find it insulting is your own personal issue. Quoting a Supreme Court case doesn't constitute critical thinking. Try again.
I wouldn't let him bait you. Best course here to move along, trust me.
__________________
I AM THE DREADED PAPIER-MÂCHÉ CENSOR!
------------------------------------------------
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
Nay_Sayer is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2017, 11:45 PM   #47
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,105
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
One of the "effects of atheism" they are afraid of is having religion outright banned. For many people, their faith is a large part of their life, and the thought that they may be forced to give that up, or face consequences, is very threatening.
I feel that the reality is what they fear is not that their religion will be banned, (most western countries have a freedom of religion, even secular one) but rather that their religion will become irrelevant to younger generations, a quaint relic of the past.
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 12:11 AM   #48
Thor 2
Graduate Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 1,869
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I feel that the reality is what they fear is not that their religion will be banned, (most western countries have a freedom of religion, even secular one) but rather that their religion will become irrelevant to younger generations, a quaint relic of the past.

A quaint relic of the past indeed. Like belief in:

Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Athena, Demeter, Dionysus, Hades, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera,Hermes, Hestia, Persephone, Poseidon, Selene, Zeus,Bacchus, Bellona, Ceres,Cupid, Diana, Faunus, Flora, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Lares, Libintia, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Mithras, Neptune, Ops, Pales, Pluto, Pomona, Proserpine, Saturn, Venus, Vertumnus, Vesta, Vulcan ------

Mind you belief in these deities has not been banned in any secular countries I know of. Even the most secular of all, the Scandinavian ones, don't ban belief in anything.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 12:29 AM   #49
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 55,654
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There were no insults.
Yes there were. For example, religion - which is a deeply and sincerely held belief - was called a "fairy tale" at least once. That is insulting, no matter what kind of polish you put on it. You can't throw the blame on the people you are insulting for being offended.

This is a common tactic of both atheists and the alt-right. I call you an a-hole, you are offended. I claim that I wasn't being offensive, I was just stating a fact, and it's your fault for being a delicate little snowflake.

Similarly, if you go around calling religious people "delusional" and dismissing their deeply-held beliefs as "fairy tales" and their revered deity as a "sky daddy", you are the one being offensive. You are the one dispensing the insults. That they are offended by your behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

That's the name-calling I was referring to earlier.
__________________
Do, or do not. There is no spoon.

Only Zuul.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 12:42 AM   #50
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,174
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The main effect of atheism is insufferable smugness, which is thankfully confined to their safe spaces. With the occasional exception, of course. Richard Dawkins, for example.

https://xkcd.com/774/
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 12:47 AM   #51
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 55,654
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Don't forget the hover text...
__________________
Do, or do not. There is no spoon.

Only Zuul.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 12:51 AM   #52
Thor 2
Graduate Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 1,869
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post

Love it.

What do you think arthwollipot ?
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 12:51 AM   #53
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,174
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Don't forget the hover text...

https://xkcd.com/1608/

Oh, "hover text". Never mind.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 12:56 AM   #54
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,023
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes there were. For example, religion - which is a deeply and sincerely held belief - was called a "fairy tale" at least once. That is insulting, no matter what kind of polish you put on it. You can't throw the blame on the people you are insulting for being offended.

This is a common tactic of both atheists and the alt-right. I call you an a-hole, you are offended. I claim that I wasn't being offensive, I was just stating a fact, and it's your fault for being a delicate little snowflake.

Similarly, if you go around calling religious people "delusional" and dismissing their deeply-held beliefs as "fairy tales" and their revered deity as a "sky daddy", you are the one being offensive. You are the one dispensing the insults. That they are offended by your behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

That's the name-calling I was referring to earlier.
It’s not the fault of atheists that there’s no credible evidence of religious stories being anything but fairy tales.

It’s not the fault of atheists that “heavenly father” is synonymous with “sky daddy”.

It’s not the fault of atheists that theists get upset and offended when their beliefs are challenged and contradicted by knowledge.
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 12:56 AM   #55
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 55,654
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Love it.

What do you think arthwollipot ?
It's hard not to feel superior to someone whose argumentative style includes derision and insult.
__________________
Do, or do not. There is no spoon.

Only Zuul.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 01:05 AM   #56
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,023
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's hard not to feel superior to someone whose argumentative style includes derision and insult.
You mean argumentative style that includes derision and insult as in - “You’re an evil sinner. You’re going to suffer an eternity of suffering. You are less moral and ethical than me. I’m a nicer and better person than you. If your beliefs aren't the same as mine they're wrong. Etc.” ???

Your argumentative style doesn't include derision and insult?
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 25th February 2017 at 01:10 AM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 01:07 AM   #57
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,174
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You mean argumentative style that includes derision and insult as in - “You’re an evil sinner. You’re going to suffer an eternity of suffering. You are less moral and ethical than me. I’m a nicer and better person than you. I’m saved and you’re damned. Etc.” ???

Since you know it isn't true, why does it bother you so much? Insulting them back doesn't really accomplish anything but show that anyone can be a jerk.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 01:13 AM   #58
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 4,489
Religion is a truth machine, creating incontestable narratives thought to be enforceable, conferring authority to do so on adherents. It is the very idea of truth machines that does the harm, and is what lies behind the complete misunderstanding of science, since science offers no final answers or prescriptions, and operates without authority or enforcement. Worse, it leaves nowhere to attach the proto-religious illusion of an immortal self. And worst of all, science is probabilistic. The calming and anesthetizing absolutes of "100% sure" and "pristine pure" do not pertain as they do in fairy tales.

But given the acceptance and persistence of these alternate truth engines - the original template for the alt-right and shift-left - it remains a "normal" choice to choose another, supposedly "mo' better" truth engine, such as an even more absolute faith, or a political dogma, such as neoliberalism, fascism, or communism. Given the extreme violence and oppression any of these has led to, precisely because they are enforceable truth engines, they are a pox on humanity and a shabby remnant of a primitive and uninformed mindset.

Therefore, to this:
Quote:
Atheists spreading atheism are literally condemning more people to Hell. This is Bad. Therefore they should stop doing that. They should be Saved, so that they personally don't go to Hell and so that they stop causing other people to go to Hell.
The reply, as always, is that religions and truth engines condemn people to real deaths, considerably more a problem than the existential angst brought on by abandoning pat - and false - answers. Further, it is a question of maturity as a species; i.e., the more cognizant of fact and aware of probability, the more potent humankind's ability to survive and prosper over the long term. Superstitions only take us backward. To take only one example, while religions speak of natural catastrophes, only science knows how to deal with them, such as maybe some day changing the orbital direction of a planet-busting asteroid.

Facing facts, as harsh as they may be, has always best served mankind. Truth narratives are a threat to our very existence as a species.

Last edited by Hlafordlaes; 25th February 2017 at 01:16 AM.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 01:17 AM   #59
Thor 2
Graduate Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 1,869
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's hard not to feel superior to someone whose argumentative style includes derision and insult.

I am at a loss here I admit. You single me out as being antagonistic and yet I have not told theists they are "delusional" as I recall nor referred to a "Sky Daddy" in my recollection.

I may be wrong but cannot remember doing so.

I may have lapsed in the heat of the moment I admit but I don't think so.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 01:27 AM   #60
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,023
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Since you know it isn't true, why does it bother you so much? Insulting them back doesn't really accomplish anything but show that anyone can be a jerk.
It hardly bothers me at all as I don’t have an emotional investment in knowledge other than I prefer it to belief and I like learning it. Besides, we’re debating whether insults are given rather than taken. Knowledge given is insult taken only by those that are insulted by knowledge challenging and contradicting their emotionally based beliefs.

Challenging and disproving emotionally held beliefs with knowledge may be upsetting to emotional believers, but that would would be being upset by knowledge (education), not insult.
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 25th February 2017 at 01:36 AM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 01:39 AM   #61
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,023
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Religion is a truth machine, creating incontestable narratives thought to be enforceable, conferring authority to do so on adherents. It is the very idea of truth machines that does the harm, and is what lies behind the complete misunderstanding of science, since science offers no final answers or prescriptions, and operates without authority or enforcement. Worse, it leaves nowhere to attach the proto-religious illusion of an immortal self. And worst of all, science is probabilistic. The calming and anesthetizing absolutes of "100% sure" and "pristine pure" do not pertain as they do in fairy tales.

But given the acceptance and persistence of these alternate truth engines - the original template for the alt-right and shift-left - it remains a "normal" choice to choose another, supposedly "mo' better" truth engine, such as an even more absolute faith, or a political dogma, such as neoliberalism, fascism, or communism. Given the extreme violence and oppression any of these has led to, precisely because they are enforceable truth engines, they are a pox on humanity and a shabby remnant of a primitive and uninformed mindset.

Therefore, to this:


The reply, as always, is that religions and truth engines condemn people to real deaths, considerably more a problem than the existential angst brought on by abandoning pat - and false - answers. Further, it is a question of maturity as a species; i.e., the more cognizant of fact and aware of probability, the more potent humankind's ability to survive and prosper over the long term. Superstitions only take us backward. To take only one example, while religions speak of natural catastrophes, only science knows how to deal with them, such as maybe some day changing the orbital direction of a planet-busting asteroid.

Facing facts, as harsh as they may be, has always best served mankind. Truth narratives are a threat to our very existence as a species.
Well said (but some may will take it as an insult)
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 25th February 2017 at 01:45 AM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:17 AM   #62
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,274
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Point out where and more importantly how I am wrong Big Dog. Don't just say my post lacks critical thinking. Address where you claim that I'm wrong. I've been a member of a church for years. I've seen my pastor drive new cars and live in a 5000 square foot home all the while begging for donations. I've been to the Vatican where there is probably a hundreds of billions of dollars of artwork that could easily be sold to you know, actually help people.

Bring something to the table. This is always the difference between the theists and the atheists.. One brings logic and reason and the other offers little but hot air. I'll let everyone else decide which is which.
...good luck...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:20 AM   #63
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12,058
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes there were. For example, religion - which is a deeply and sincerely held belief - was called a "fairy tale" at least once. That is insulting, no matter what kind of polish you put on it. You can't throw the blame on the people you are insulting for being offended.

This is a common tactic of both atheists and the alt-right. I call you an a-hole, you are offended. I claim that I wasn't being offensive, I was just stating a fact, and it's your fault for being a delicate little snowflake.

Similarly, if you go around calling religious people "delusional" and dismissing their deeply-held beliefs as "fairy tales" and their revered deity as a "sky daddy", you are the one being offensive. You are the one dispensing the insults. That they are offended by your behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

That's the name-calling I was referring to earlier.
I disagree. Both are simply facts. That theists find the comments as insulting is a personal issue. If a single theist can show a shred of credible evidence that their God or gods are real their feeling insulted might have merit. Like it or not these are bronze age mythologies and not the result of critical thinking.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:20 AM   #64
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,274
I am trying to think of a single law passed by atheists with the effect of imposing atheism upon society, or upon individuals.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:24 AM   #65
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 16,168
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is nothing juvenile about it. The idea that it is more then a fairy tale is not provable and your problem is that you've gone 'all in' on your fairy tale and it bothers you that it is what it is.

It also is DEFINITELY a BUSINESS. It generates revenue and the people that run them benefit from it. The idea that it isn't a business is absurd. It shouldn't be taxed at a higher or lower rate of other businesses, but it should be taxed. There really is no justification for its tax exemption.

This
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:32 AM   #66
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,274
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I feel that the reality is what they fear is not that their religion will be banned, (most western countries have a freedom of religion, even secular one) but rather that their religion will become irrelevant to younger generations, a quaint relic of the past.
This.

One "effect" of theism (especially when theists write laws) is the imposition of theistic observations (such as blue laws, and laws against marriage equality) upon people in general.

Atheism can have no such "effect"--if the theist-driven laws are repealed, any theist may still choose not to purchase liquor of a Sunday morning; or not to marry a person of the same sex. What they lose is the power to impose their superstitions upon others.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:39 AM   #67
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,274
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is nothing juvenile about it. The idea that it is more then a fairy tale is not provable and your problem is that you've gone 'all in' on your fairy tale and it bothers you that it is what it is.

It also is DEFINITELY a BUSINESS. It generates revenue and the people that run them benefit from it. The idea that it isn't a business is absurd. It shouldn't be taxed at a higher or lower rate of other businesses, but it should be taxed. There really is no justification for its tax exemption.
One wonders why pastors do not voluntarily limit themselves to a salary equal to or less than the modal salary of the "flock", and give the rest to the poor...for "treasure in 'heaven' ". That bit must have been a "metaphor".
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:40 AM   #68
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,274
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
"Article I:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

Not a single suggestion of exempting religion from taxation.
Well, heck. "You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:40 AM   #69
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 20,512
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Q.E.D.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 07:41 AM   #70
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 52,655
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
OK good idea. This is arthwollipots post:
If the other side would leave us alone and halt all political pushing for their ideas, no problem. But a **** load of religious do push that way thus ...........
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 08:40 AM   #71
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,561
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
It’s not the fault of atheists that there’s no credible evidence of religious stories being anything but fairy tales.

It’s not the fault of atheists that “heavenly father” is synonymous with “sky daddy”.

It’s not the fault of atheists that theists get upset and offended when their beliefs are challenged and contradicted by knowledge.
Actually, as I have pointed out repeatedly, the use of those juvenile terms simply indicates that the person is using them as a crutch. When those insipid, unoriginal taunts come out, I see a white flag.

The only thing they insult is the readers intelligence.

But by all means keep using them, i know that nothing of substance will be included in the "argument."
__________________
don't let your friends deny Soviet Genocide.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 09:28 AM   #72
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,561
By the way, when I hear people attempt to rationalize their use of juvenilia like sky daddy, it brings to mind the old bigot at the end of the bar rationalizing their use of racial slurs like rag head.

"It's not the fault of the Americans that they wear rags on their heads. It is not our fault that the rag heads get upset and insulted when I use knowledge to point out they have rags on their heads."
__________________
don't let your friends deny Soviet Genocide.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 09:32 AM   #73
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,174
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Q.E.D.

"Sorry, that excuse expires after one use per conversation."
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 09:44 AM   #74
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12,058
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes there were. For example, religion - which is a deeply and sincerely held belief - was called a "fairy tale" at least once. That is insulting, no matter what kind of polish you put on it. You can't throw the blame on the people you are insulting for being offended.

This is a common tactic of both atheists and the alt-right. I call you an a-hole, you are offended. I claim that I wasn't being offensive, I was just stating a fact, and it's your fault for being a delicate little snowflake.

Similarly, if you go around calling religious people "delusional" and dismissing their deeply-held beliefs as "fairy tales" and their revered deity as a "sky daddy", you are the one being offensive. You are the one dispensing the insults. That they are offended by your behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

That's the name-calling I was referring to earlier.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A quaint relic of the past indeed. Like belief in:

Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Athena, Demeter, Dionysus, Hades, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera,Hermes, Hestia, Persephone, Poseidon, Selene, Zeus,Bacchus, Bellona, Ceres,Cupid, Diana, Faunus, Flora, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Lares, Libintia, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Mithras, Neptune, Ops, Pales, Pluto, Pomona, Proserpine, Saturn, Venus, Vertumnus, Vesta, Vulcan ------

Mind you belief in these deities has not been banned in any secular countries I know of. Even the most secular of all, the Scandinavian ones, don't ban belief in anything.
I'm not sure we could ever say that any of the abhorrent Abrahamic religions are 'quaint' when we consider the brutality of them.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 09:48 AM   #75
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12,058
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
One wonders why pastors do not voluntarily limit themselves to a salary equal to or less than the modal salary of the "flock", and give the rest to the poor...for "treasure in 'heaven' ". That bit must have been a "metaphor".
You think it is a 'wonder'? Or maybe, just maybe, that perhaps it is more something a little more self-centered?
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 10:00 AM   #76
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,274
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think it is a 'wonder'? Or maybe, just maybe, that perhaps it is more something a little more self-centered?
To paraphrase Zelazny's Gallinger: "Someday I shall write a monograph entitled, Tone of Voice: Insufficient Vehicle for Irony".
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 10:10 AM   #77
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12,058
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
To paraphrase Zelazny's Gallinger: "Someday I shall write a monograph entitled, Tone of Voice: Insufficient Vehicle for Irony".
I was 95 percent sure you were being ironic. But text doesn't offer that 'tone of voice' clue.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 10:16 AM   #78
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,274
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I was 95 percent sure you were being ironic. But text doesn't offer that 'tone of voice' clue.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 10:35 AM   #79
Peregrinus
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 560
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
. . . . those insipid, unoriginal taunts . . .
Wherein we are treated to juvenalia of your own coining.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2017, 10:40 AM   #80
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,561
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Wherein we are treated to juvenalia of your own coining.
While all of us appreciate a fine "I know you are but what am I" counterargument, you may wish to actually look up the meaning of the words you choose to copy, lest your "counterargument" be shown to be utterly ridiculous.
__________________
don't let your friends deny Soviet Genocide.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:50 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.