|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#121 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,353
|
|
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#122 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,382
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#123 |
Disorder of Kilopi
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 7,008
|
Unsurprisingly, I heartily disagree. Apparently, our definitions, frames of reference, due diligence, educational background, learning from experience, level of exposure to cultures and bodies of knowledge, and basic common sense all differ profoundly, as does skeptical commitment. Further characterization thereof does indeed seem a sterile exercise.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#124 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,353
|
No. Because I find the character not worthy of any respect. I see God as
1. Mythological 2. Immoral 3. Brutal and not loving. 4. Petty and pathetic. 5. Dishonest 6. Cruel. Frankly, I see the God character as a jerk. One of the worst in all fiction. If you want to explain why such a character should be treated respectfully, have at it. |
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#125 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,382
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#126 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,382
|
The curious thing is that this started out with the grossly disingenuous suggestion that the use of sky daddy was anything other than pejorative taunt
How are they any different? He asks "innocently" then flat out admits that he is intentionally using to show his blatant disrespect. To be perfectly honest, if one is unable to discuss these issues without using school yard taunts, one should not expect to have one's posts treated with respect. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#127 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,353
|
You never discuss them. Your feigned offense is just a dodge so you can feel superior. Actually discussing them would force you to question your beliefs and you are far too vested to do that.
I was a Christian for more then half my life and I assure you I never would have taken such a personal offense. If there is a God, don't you think he can deal with my blasphemy so why the hell would you care how I refer to it? |
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#128 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,382
|
Because it insults our intelligence obviously. If you choose to use words that makes your post sound foolish, do not expect people to treat your arguments as anything other than foolish.
By the way, sky daddy is not blasphemous, it is just unoriginal, childish and a glaring sign that a post including it will undoubtedly contain nothing of value. But, by all means, use it! I can assure you that it will not lower my opinion of your arguments. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#129 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,353
|
You so funny. You think I care about your opinion of my posts?
![]() Yesterday or maybe it was the day before, you mentioned a Supreme Court case but you didn't actually reference any of the words from the opinions and discussed how it supported your argument. Nope just a line and the court case title. So excuse me for not feeling offended that you don't think highly of my posts. |
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#130 |
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,551
|
|
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#131 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,382
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#132 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 16,353
|
Except you didn't. You mentioned the case and that was it. You didn't reference a single word from the majority opinion by Burger or the concurring opinions by Harlan or Brennan. You also didn't mention Douglas's dissenting opinion where he decimated the majority opinion.
Thanks for proving my point. |
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#133 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,382
|
The dissent "decimated" the majority opinion.
If they handed out trophies to the losers, I certainly agree that you make a hell of a case that the dissent deserves one. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#134 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
No argument with that at all - the Catholic Churches runs are on the board. The history of the Catholic Church is a good example of the effects of theism when it gets out of hand. The extraordinary brutality and the way they amassed such a fortune over the years is staggering. A complete lack of conscience over what happened in the past is what we are witnessing today. Has the Catholic Church ever apologized for it's questionable practices of the past like selling "indulgences" for example? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#135 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#136 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,097
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#137 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,736
|
|
__________________
"This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#138 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,736
|
People in general have a tendency to act insufferably smug when they think they know more than others. Atheists are far from the only group to do it. That's the point of the cartoon - theists are smug, atheists are smug, and those who chide theists and atheists for being smug are themselves also smug.
|
__________________
"This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#139 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,736
|
It's juvenile and glib. Also, it is insulting towards an entity that many people believe exist, believe deserves respect, and feel very strongly about. Even if you believe that this entity is fictional (which you do, obviously), the use of terms like "sky daddy" or "delusional" is highly disrespectful of the deeply-held beliefs of those who do not, and is thereby disrespectful of them.
You cannot consistently claim that you hate theism but love theists when you use such language. You can't consistently claim that you attack only the beliefs when doing so directly insults the believers. Like I said, this is why most antitheist arguments get absolutely nowhere with believers. Like The Big Dog here in this thread, these tactics give them an excuse to dismiss everything you say out of hand. Have you ever wondered why there are so few theists who regularly post here? This is why. They see this sort of thing and say to themselves "I see no reason to subject myself to this kind of treatment, I'm off." And the antitheists bask in the smug glow of having driven off another loser. These are not the actions of someone who is interested in a genuine dialogue. These are not the actions of someone who is interested in coming to an understanding of the other position. These are the actions of a bully. And they give the rest of us atheists an undeserved bad rep. |
__________________
"This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#140 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#141 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,097
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#142 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#143 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,382
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#144 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
If we had a scale of smugness I wonder how atheists would score. I think atheists may have a higher self esteem than theists in general, partly because theists, (well the Christian variety anyway), have this fixation taught them about being miserable sinners. Atheists may also feel a strong sense achievement, because they have managed to discard and rise above all that nonsense. The bulk of use are of course, ex theists, so we have a good idea what it was like to be in that bubble, or hole, and feel we have accomplished something by climbing out. In the light of this it is understandable, that atheists could feel a sense of superiority, over those still grovelling on their knees and paying homage, to a mythical being and institution. It is amazing to me that Christians can show delight in singing songs that describe themselves as miserable sinners. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#145 |
Woof!
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,986
|
I think it would be more useful to hear from former belivers, than an argument amongst the two groups.
|
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#146 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#147 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,479
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#148 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#149 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#150 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,382
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#151 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
Interesting. Do you know many like this The Big Dog. From my experience it seems more of a one way street, and those that return to faith after leaving it, are rather thin on the ground. Global trends about the rise of atheism seem to bear this out. You do keep on about anti-theists don't you, in spite of others and I saying we are anti-theism not anti-theists. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#152 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42d 45'23.3"N, 84d 35' 10.8'W, 840'>MSL
Posts: 6,882
|
|
__________________
I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#153 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#154 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,479
|
Doesn't bother me if anyone did not escape the fetters until they were 56, 66, 76, 86 That is not a big deal. The important part is that one gets out at whatever age it might be.
It so happens that I apparently escaped at a slightly earlier age than you. What of it? There is no imaginary atheist score cards upon which points and penalties are levied. To you, or me for that matter, this may seem a trivial point, and I certainly do not mean to patronise you. Nevertheless, it is an important point. There exists a sub-set of believers who really think that is how atheism works. Some of them right here. Rightly or wrongly, I feel that if one can get it out in black and white, it is worth the trivial effort of typing for a few minutes even if only a single individual came to toss belief in favour of knowledge. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#155 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,736
|
I believe that you're taking this "miserable sinners" idea and assuming that it applies to all Christians, which it doesn't. It certainly applies to the Lutheran/Calvinist end of the spectrum, but that's only one small part of the picture.
Some denominations teach that while people are inherently sinful, they can find joy and accomplishment in rising above their sinful nature. It's a source of self-esteem, not a hindrance to it. I am a former believer. Hi, I'm arthwollipot and I've been free of religion for twenty-five years. |
__________________
"This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#156 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#157 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,509
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#158 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,736
|
I am completely serious.
Once again I am speaking from my experience in a Protestant Evanglical church and have little direct knowledge of Catholicism. What you say may well be true. Catholicism is merely the largest sect, and it differs from Protestantism in many quite significant ways. If your argument is that Lutherans, Calvinists and Catholics fixate on being miserable sinners, then yeah, there's no way I'd disagree with that. But that does not even remotely represent the full spread of Christianity. The central idea of Christianity - inasmuch as it can be reasonably said that there even is one - is that Jesus died to absolve people of their sins. Let's not get into the whole not-dying thing again since we've just done that in the other thread. For me - speaking from direct, personal, lived experience here, which is something that a lot of opinionated people don't have - the realisation that I could sin but choose not to was definitely a source of self-esteem. The feeling that I was able to rise above it and be righteous despite the inherent sinful nature of all humans was an absolute joy. It meant that I felt worthy of God's love. That I was actively doing something to deserve it. And I believe that this feeling would be common to any of the Christians I know - even the Catholic ones - and not just the members of the particular sect that I was a part of. Though I admit I have never asked them this specific question directly because quite frankly it strikes me as a bit dickish. Am I making any sense here? Do you understand the idea that I'm trying to convey? I know it goes contrary to what you think you understand about being a Christian, but I assure you that it's true. |
__________________
"This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#159 |
Woof!
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,986
|
|
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#160 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|