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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 9th March 2017, 04:18 PM   #41
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The Dump hasn't the foggiest...

Quote:
Trump's comments about Putin and Ukraine came when ABC host George Stephanopoulos asked the Republican presidential nominee about his campaign's efforts to soften a portion of the Republican platform about the United States' commitment to helping Ukraine.

"I was not involved in that," Trump said on ABC about his campaign's work on the GOP platform. "I’d have to take a look at it."

"Do you know what they did?" Stephanopoulos asked.

"They softened it, I heard. But I was not involved," Trump replied.

Stephanopoulos explained that the platform does not call for the U.S. to supply arms to Ukraine, a position widely supported by Republicans.

"It’s — look, you know, I have my own ideas," Trump said in response.

Asked about Trump's comments on Russia and Ukraine, campaign co-chair Sam Clovis said that Trump was likely "thinking about something else" while responding to the question about Russia.
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Old 9th March 2017, 05:02 PM   #42
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Ms. Maddow lays out a pretty solid case.

At about 8:10, it gets really interesting...

The GOP platform had a "give Ukraine weapons to help fight Russia" plank/platform in it.

Leaked info claims, "Russia leaked Mrs. Clinton's and the Dems' e-mails..and in return Mr. Trump and his campaign staffers/crew/member...et al...will remove the 'give Ukraine weapons to fight Russia'"

http://americannewsx.com/hot-off-the...ussia-scandal/
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Old 9th March 2017, 05:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
Ms. Maddow lays out a pretty solid case.

At about 8:10, it gets really interesting...

The GOP platform had a "give Ukraine weapons to help fight Russia" plank/platform in it.

Leaked info claims, "Russia leaked Mrs. Clinton's and the Dems' e-mails..and in return Mr. Trump and his campaign staffers/crew/member...et al...will remove the 'give Ukraine weapons to fight Russia'"

http://americannewsx.com/hot-off-the...ussia-scandal/
Yeah that was touched upon in the video I linked. The evidence is mounting, and it's become quite entertaining to watch Trump supporters try to hand wave it away.
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Old 9th March 2017, 05:15 PM   #44
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Feinstein wants to subpeona Trump's tax returns.
Quote:
Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat who sits on the intelligence committee, said she also wants to include Trump's tax returns -- which the President, bucking longstanding precedent, did not release during the campaign -- as part of this investigation.

Unfortunately the GOP committee members have to cooperate. A talking head just said that Olympia Snowe (R) might vote to subpeona.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:10 PM   #45
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Here are a couple pieces I highly recommend:

Russia: The Conspiracy Trap By Masha Gessen, in The New York Review of Books

And sort of building and expanding on that, Glenn Greenwald in the Intercept:
Leading Putin Critic Warns of Xenophobic Conspiracy Theories Drowning U.S. Discourse and Helping Trump

I think reasonable people can of course disagree, but I think they at least both make thought-provoking arguments. Neither of these people are either pro-Trump or pro-Putin by the way; very much the opposite in fact.
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Old 10th March 2017, 02:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Feinstein wants to subpeona Trump's tax returns.


Unfortunately the GOP committee members have to cooperate. A talking head just said that Olympia Snowe (R) might vote to subpeona.
Olympia Snowe might vote to subpeona?

Senator Olympia Snowe retired in 2013.
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Old 10th March 2017, 06:23 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Here are a couple pieces I highly recommend:

Russia: The Conspiracy Trap By Masha Gessen, in The New York Review of Books
Great article. Thanks for the link. Of course I don't agree with her on the politics, but I think she's bang on as to her central thesis.

Quote:
And sort of building and expanding on that, Glenn Greenwald in the Intercept:
Leading Putin Critic Warns of Xenophobic Conspiracy Theories Drowning U.S. Discourse and Helping Trump

I found this line amusing:
Quote:
[Masha Gessen] now has a new article in the New York Review of Books – entitled “Russia: the Conspiracy Trap” – that I cannot recommend highly enough.
It reminds me of a great book I bought a long, long time ago called The Lexicon of Intentionally Ambiguous Recommendations. Available here at Amazon I see.

Quote:
I think reasonable people can of course disagree, but I think they at least both make thought-provoking arguments. Neither of these people are either pro-Trump or pro-Putin by the way; very much the opposite in fact.
I actually don't think reasonable people can disagree. It only takes a few minutes of introspection to understand the truth of Gessen's argument. Consider how the anti-Trump media would have handled some of the Obama administration scandals if they had happened under a Trump administration. The Fast and Furious scandal? It would have been unrelenting. The IRS targeting of [progressive] 401(c)(4)s? Even worse than Watergate. Whenever you throw vast investigative resources at an administration, you'll uncover dozens of misstatements and suspicious looking actions, and, through the process of investigating, cause dozens more. By reporting only on those, in front page headlines no less, it is very easy to create a conspiracy theory narrative that appears plausible.

Last edited by sunmaster14; 10th March 2017 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:30 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
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I AGREE


Keeps piling up.
Thanks for the link, but good God, how do people listen to her? I think this is the first I've heard her, and it's a dreadful, repetitive presentation. She really does sound like a liberal Rush Limbaugh (in terms of style, not degree of partisanship really).

It should not have taken so long to tell us what the damned story was, repeating how weird it was at the time, blah blah blah.

Well, back on topic, if Politico's story is correct, this should be a mighty interesting story to follow.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:31 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
That article is confusing. Are they investigating whether there was a link or whether the link was significant?
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:35 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Thanks for the link, but good God, how do people listen to her? I think this is the first I've heard her, and it's a dreadful, repetitive presentation. She really does sound like a liberal Rush Limbaugh (in terms of style, not degree of partisanship really).

It should not have taken so long to tell us what the damned story was, repeating how weird it was at the time, blah blah blah.
She drags on for a while, sure, but she's damned thorough. A good watch, but sometimes takes a while. Most good information is like that.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:37 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by willim View Post
Olympia Snowe might vote to subpeona?

Senator Olympia Snowe retired in 2013.
Doh! Susan Collins that is.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:37 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That article is confusing. Are they investigating whether there was a link or whether the link was significant?
Whether the link was significant. The only things the public knows is that the bank was contact the Trump Org. server and the FBI is looking into it. There's no information available on the nature of the communication which would clear up what was going on.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:44 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Thanks for the link, but good God, how do people listen to her? I think this is the first I've heard her, and it's a dreadful, repetitive presentation. She really does sound like a liberal Rush Limbaugh (in terms of style, not degree of partisanship really).
On style, I have always thought that Maddow was absolutely unwatchable. It is amazing to me that she has lasted this long (or that she was even given a show in the first place). I honestly cannot watch her for more than a few minutes, and it has nothing to do with her politics (which I would ordinarily be interested in hearing). It's her ability to be condescending, nails on the chalkboard grating, and mind-numbingly boring, all at the same time. Quite a feat actually, but not one that makes for good TV.

Rush, on the other hand, is actually pretty entertaining. It doesn't seem like you've listened to Rush at all if you think he and Maddow have similar styles.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:50 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
She drags on for a while, sure, but she's damned thorough. A good watch, but sometimes takes a while. Most good information is like that.
No, not like this. PBS Newshour (BBC, too) is thorough, sometimes even a bit dull, but not repetitive and maddening like Maddow or talk radio. She must have told us a dozen times that this thing was weird, really weird, before she told us what the hell it was.

That's manipulative.

I'm not saying she wasn't also informative, but I really don't need to be primed before you tell me what the hell happened

Matter of taste, I suppose, and I apologize for the derail.
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Old 10th March 2017, 07:52 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, not like this. PBS Newshour (BBC, too) is thorough, sometimes even a bit dull, but not repetitive and maddening like Maddow or talk radio. She must have told us a dozen times that this thing was weird, really weird, before she told us what the hell it was.
Yes I agree that this was a bit much. She doesn't usually do it quite to that level. But my point was that good information is often boring because it's not spinned.

No apologies required. The whole point of this forum is discussion, and naturally we'll veer a bit off-course sometimes.
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Old 10th March 2017, 11:03 AM   #56
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The issue with the bank posted above:

Sources: FBI investigation continues into 'odd' computer link between Russian bank and Trump Organization
Quote:
Questions about the possible connection were widely dismissed four months ago. But the FBI's investigation remains open, the sources said, and is in the hands of the FBI's counterintelligence team -- the same one looking into Russia's suspected interference in the 2016 election.

One U.S. official said investigators find the server relationship "odd" and are not ignoring it. But the official said there is still more work for the FBI to do. Investigators have not yet determined whether a connection would be significant.

The server issue surfaced again this weekend, mentioned in a Breitbart article that, according to a White House official, sparked President Trump's series of tweets accusing investigators of tapping his phone.

CNN is told there was no Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act warrant on the server.
The connection is odd because it amounted to:
Quote:
Internet data shows that last summer, a computer server owned by Russia-based Alfa Bank repeatedly looked up the contact information for a computer server being used by the Trump Organization -- far more than other companies did, representing 80% of all lookups to the Trump server.
But the same bank computer did not make those same connections to other organizations, in other words it doesn't look random.
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Old 10th March 2017, 02:13 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Illicit?
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
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I AGREE


Keeps piling up.
She is unwatchable. Anything on NPR that explains all this in human terms?
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Old 10th March 2017, 03:01 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
She is unwatchable. Anything on NPR that explains all this in human terms?
Here's a brief summary:

1. There has been a GOP platform position on the books for some years that is supportive of Ukraine.
2. The wording was softened at the GOP convention.
3. Trump campaign flat-out denied any involvement in the change.
4. A trump campaign official now admits to being the conduit between Donald Trump (personally) and the GOP committee to make the change.
5. Konstantin Kilimnik is a Russian operative who had close ties to Manafort.
6. Kilimnik reportedly visited Manafort at the GOP convention for the purpose of effecting the platform change.

Authorities looked into Manafort protégé
Manafort’s man in Kiev
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Old 10th March 2017, 05:27 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
1. There has been a GOP platform position on the books for some years that is supportive of Ukraine.
2. The wording was softened at the GOP convention.
The issue as I understand it was whether to call for supplying lethal aid (or increasing the supply or supplying more sophisticated weapons) to the Ukrainians (which would be a more hawkish position than Obama). The language about sanctions was left in as I understand it.

Quote:
The article was slightly misleading: it made it seem like Trump’s people made the party abandon a plank that would have called for maintaining or increasing sanctions and lethal aid. In fact, the sanctions part of the plank stayed in the platform—it was the lethal-aid amendment, a step that had hitherto not been taken, even during the height of the Ukraine war in 2014, that was tabled. The issue is far from a clear-cut one: few people in Washington, whether Republicans or Democrats, are on record as favoring lethal aid.
Quote:
The report sounded damning—unless one knew, of course, that the “language” to which Acosta managed to refer four times in the space of thirty seconds did not exist—no statement on Ukraine was inserted into the Republican platform by the Trump campaign—and that the sentiment ostensibly ascribed to candidate Trump falls squarely in the foreign-policy mainstream and was, in fact, the position held by the Obama administration.
Basic point being that the resulting Republican platform was not substantially different on the Ukraine question than the status quo Obama policy. We condemn the annexing of Crimea and the eastern areas of Ukraine; we impose economic sanctions on Russia as an expression of this condemnation, but we don't escalate the war.
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Old 12th March 2017, 11:09 AM   #60
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Whatever the facts of Russian influence, we know that...
  • Trump flat out lied about his relationship with Putin
  • Trump flat out lied about his role in GOP platform concerning Ukraine
  • Manafort flat out lied about his/Trump role in GOP platform
  • Flynn flat out lied about his Russian contacts
  • Trump lied by omission about Flynn's contacts
  • Sessions flat out lied about his Russian contacts
  • Carter Page flat out lied about his Russian contacts
  • Various campaign officials lied about Page's relationship with the campaign
  • Roger Stone flat out lied about his Russian contacts

Did I miss any liars?

That's a whole bunch of lying.
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Old 12th March 2017, 01:53 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Basic point being that the resulting Republican platform was not substantially different on the Ukraine question than the status quo Obama policy.
Not the point though. The point is that the Republican platform was changed. The question is why. Surely not because the Republicans were persuaded that Obama's position was the better one to adopt.
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Old 12th March 2017, 01:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
That's a whole bunch of lying.
[Placeholder for iceberg analogies]
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Old 12th March 2017, 02:30 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Not the point though. The point is that the Republican platform was changed. The question is why. Surely not because the Republicans were persuaded that Obama's position was the better one to adopt.
I actually haven't seen any evidence that the Republican platform changed. The 2012 GOP platform had no reference to giving lethal weapons to Ukraine, nor would one expect it since the pro-Russian insurgency didn't begin until 2014. Is there a final version of a GOP platform which was changed, or was it only a draft that changed (or perhaps this is just all nonsense)? You claim to know, so I figured you're the one to ask.
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Old 12th March 2017, 03:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I actually haven't seen any evidence that the Republican platform changed. The 2012 GOP platform had no reference to giving lethal weapons to Ukraine, nor would one expect it since the pro-Russian insurgency didn't begin until 2014. Is there a final version of a GOP platform which was changed, or was it only a draft that changed (or perhaps this is just all nonsense)? You claim to know, so I figured you're the one to ask.
There was a proposed change. The wording was softened. Nobody is disputing this, including Trump himself. Except you apparently.

This is old news. The new information is Diana Deman's revelation that the marching orders came from Trump personally, and the allegation that Manafort's man in Ukraine was in the Russian military, and that he claims involvement in the platform change.
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Old 12th March 2017, 10:24 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
There was a proposed change. The wording was softened. Nobody is disputing this, including Trump himself. Except you apparently.

This is old news. The new information is Diana Deman's revelation that the marching orders came from Trump personally, and the allegation that Manafort's man in Ukraine was in the Russian military, and that he claims involvement in the platform change.
I wonder why Trump lied about his involvement. I wonder why his underlings lied.
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Old 13th March 2017, 12:46 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Whatever the facts of Russian influence, we know that...
  • Trump flat out lied about his relationship with Putin
  • Trump flat out lied about his role in GOP platform concerning Ukraine
  • Manafort flat out lied about his/Trump role in GOP platform
  • Flynn flat out lied about his Russian contacts
  • Trump lied by omission about Flynn's contacts
  • Sessions flat out lied about his Russian contacts
  • Carter Page flat out lied about his Russian contacts
  • Various campaign officials lied about Page's relationship with the campaign
  • Roger Stone flat out lied about his Russian contacts

Did I miss any liars?

That's a whole bunch of lying.
The thing is, none of it seems to matter. In the past this would have caused a major ruckus with people running around like headless chickens trying to cover up and eventually there would be political fallout.

Now all the Trump administration has to do is to keep shamelessly denying that there and any links and if eventually it becomes undeniable, he'll just say "Meh, no big deal" and be spared any damage.
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Old 14th March 2017, 02:40 AM   #67
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More from Maddow, for those who can stomach her, apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKJiEae7TYw

Lots of shady, dirty money floating about.
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Old 14th March 2017, 03:28 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
More from Maddow, for those who can stomach her, apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKJiEae7TYw

Lots of shady, dirty money floating about.
The new swamp creatures look to be starting to set themselves up nicely.
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Old 14th March 2017, 10:22 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
More from Maddow, for those who can stomach her, apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKJiEae7TYw

Lots of shady, dirty money floating about.
I can stomach her just fine. And her journalism has been outstanding.
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Old 14th March 2017, 10:30 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I can stomach her just fine. And her journalism has been outstanding.
Same here. But I understand that some people would like her to get to the point more quickly.
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Old 15th March 2017, 08:25 AM   #71
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Failed appointee as deputy national security advisor, Monica Crowley, registers as lobbyist for Pro-Russian Ukrainian oligarch.

Quote:
A would-be Trump White House appointee who withdrew in the face of plagiarism allegations is now lobbying on behalf of a Ukrainian oligarch who has recently advocated greater concessions to the Russian government, according to newly filed documents.

Monica Crowley told the Justice Department's National Security Division that she will represent billionaire Victor Pinchuk in discussions with U.S. government officials “and other policy makers” regarding “issues of concern to Mr. Pinchuk.”
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Old 15th March 2017, 08:31 AM   #72
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
A complete coincidence, I'm sure.
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Old 15th March 2017, 12:36 PM   #73
Hlafordlaes
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

U.S. Charges Russian FSB Officers and Their Criminal Conspirators for Hacking Yahoo and Millions of Email Accounts
FSB Officers Protected, Directed, Facilitated and Paid Criminal Hackers


Quote:
The criminal conduct at issue, carried out and otherwise facilitated by officers from an FSB unit that serves as the FBI’s point of contact in Moscow on cybercrime matters, is beyond the pale,” said Acting Assistant Attorney General McCord.
I certainly hope this serves as a wake-up call to quit bickering and undertake a very serious investigation of all Russian cyber activity over the last several years, and to concentrate for the moment on Trump officials and collaborators.

Collaborators. I like the sound.
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Old 17th March 2017, 04:03 AM   #74
Stacko
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More Flynn Russia connections.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/moscow-pa...165404052.html
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Old 17th March 2017, 04:13 AM   #75
The Don
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
From that link:

Quote:
RT, the Russian state-owned television network described by U.S. intelligence officials as “the Kremlin’s principal international propaganda outlet,” paid $45,386 for former Defense Intelligence Agency Director Michael Flynn to fly to Moscow to speak at its 10th anniversary celebration in December 2015, according to documents newly obtained by a congressional committee and provided to Yahoo News.
Yeah, well, Goldman Sachs paid Hitlery far more for her speeches which is far, far worse.

MAGA !!!11!!!!!!!!11!!!

DRIAN TEH SWAMPZ !!!!!!1!!!!1!!1
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:47 PM   #76
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Did Rep. Nunes misspeak here or did he mean to say I don't think there's any but one under investigation or surveillance activities in the Trump administration? That's a big thing to let slip if true.
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:50 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It is way too weird a sentence structure, with very little stuttering in the relevant part, to be unintentional.

I'll make a prediction that he will at least recuse himself from the upcoming Intelligence committee hearings.

ETA: Anybody know what the follow-up question was? A proper journalist would jump on that. Because, even ONE person inside the WH under investigation or surveillance, as suggested by Nunes, should be BIG. There's not much mainstream news fallout from that statement, though, as far as I can see. I don't think that means no one has noticed, or understood the significance, in mainstream media. It appears that mainstream media in the USA is treading extremely carefully recently. They don't want to push the wrong button.

Last edited by elgarak; 19th March 2017 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 19th March 2017, 05:18 PM   #78
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https://theintercept.com/2017/03/16/...sia-collusion/


“On the question of the Trump campaign conspiring with the Russians here, there is smoke, but there is no fire at all,” he said, adding, “There’s no little campfire, there’s no little candle, there’s no spark. And there’s a lot of people looking for it.”
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:05 AM   #79
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Is Fox News getting jealous of Breitbart's access?

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Old 20th March 2017, 07:34 AM   #80
elgarak
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
https://theintercept.com/2017/03/16/...sia-collusion/


“On the question of the Trump campaign conspiring with the Russians here, there is smoke, but there is no fire at all,” he said, adding, “There’s no little campfire, there’s no little candle, there’s no spark. And there’s a lot of people looking for it.”
It would be nice to state in your quote who "he" is...

(it's Obama's former acting CIA chief Michael Morell, who left in 2013.)
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