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Tags jesse ventura , torture , waterboarding

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Old 20th April 2017, 10:30 AM   #41
Tony Stark
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It is really good at getting people to say what you want them to say.
For example, the CIA had a member of al Qaeda renditioned to Egypt to be tortured. Under torture he claimed that Saddam gave al Qaeda help with WMDs. The Bush administration used this "intel" to help sell the Iraq war even though the CIA and the DIA suspected he made it up.

Note that this same person was previously in FBI custody. He cooperated with them. They achieved this by bonding with him and offering a deal which would allow his family to move to the US. Then the CIA came and took him so they could have him tortured in Egypt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Shaykh_al-Libi
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:40 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Can you provide a single example of torture being used to acquire accurate information? Just once, throughout the history of mankind?
When he was growing up, he could get his little brother to admit that he was King of the World by giving him a major wedgie.

It worked!

"Who's the King of the World?"

"You are"
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:50 AM   #43
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Jack Bauer used torture a bunch of times with success. For example, terrorists were trying to nuke Los Angeles, and he used torture to find the location of the bomb. If he didn't torture that terrorist like a million people would have died. Is that what you would have prefered, liberals?
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:13 AM   #44
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It's pretty easy to imagine that when torture is illegal or morally condemnable you would have difficulty citing examples of when torture "works". A torturer who brings forth evidence that their work yielded real fruit would be a person who is confessing to a crime. IOW, you would not hear about instances of torture that caused the victim to give the information that the torturer sought.

By its nature, it's one of those kinds of things.
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:19 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Jack Bauer used torture a bunch of times with success. For example, terrorists were trying to nuke Los Angeles, and he used torture to find the location of the bomb. If he didn't torture that terrorist like a million people would have died. Is that what you would have prefered, liberals?
I often find that is the main problem with pro-torture people.

They watch too much TV.
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:32 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
This just isn't accurate. There are centuries upon centuries of data demonstrating that torture is not an effective means of information gathering:
Careful now. It's not reliable in a lot of cases, but it does work at least some of the time.

The morality of torture is a separate and, for me, convincing argument in and of itself.
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:37 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry 'Ziggurat', but torture is actually a very poor way of collecting data.
Again, it depends. The mere threat of hurting me or my loved ones would be enough for me to tell you anything you want, and accurately at that.

The reliability of torture (again, distinctly from its morality) depends on the questions, the victim, etc.
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:40 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I often find that is the main problem with pro-torture people.

They watch too much TV.
Saying that torture may work in some instances isn't being "pro-torture" any more that saying that nukes can end wars means you're in favour of using them.
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:15 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Careful now. It's not reliable in a lot of cases, but it does work at least some of the time.
Sure, you're right. That part wasn't specific enough. I tried to indicate RELIABLE or ACCURATE information.

It's super good for getting incorrect information and information the torturers want to hear, generally false confession.

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The morality of torture is a separate and, for me, convincing argument in and of itself.
Me too. The fact that it is so useless as an intelligence gathering process is only meaningful to the extent it undercuts the proponents.
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:15 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Careful now. It's not reliable in a lot of cases, but it does work at least some of the time.
Can you provide an example?
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:15 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
That's commendable that he was able (and let's be honest... allowed) to leverage the many shared social aspects between himself and his Allied prisoners. His personal command of English as well as US and UK customs, humor etc. were no doubt invaluable.
A very slow method, but good on him for persevering (it makes clear he "learned as he went"). The old "honey vs. vinegar" argument.

Much of that though may have been sadly inapplicable to the situation in Gitmo.
I don't condone the traditional class of brutal torture we probably all picture (bamboo under the nails, electroshock, etc) but I'm fairly okay with finding an effective middle ground.
Yes... pain, fear and deprivation can and do produce real intel. I see no justification in being gleefully sadistic about it though.
Does this mean that in abu ghraib the soldier were doing right and proper things to soften up the prisoners for interrogation?
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:23 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
The fact that it is so useless as an intelligence gathering process is only meaningful to the extent it undercuts the proponents.
Again, you're overstating your case. It's not reliable in a lot of cases, but it does deliver accurate information more often than we'd like to admit, because we're morally opposed to it, so we've convinced ourselves that it doesn't work to bolster our case.

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Can you provide an example?
I offered myself as an example just minutes ago.
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:24 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Careful now. It's not reliable in a lot of cases, but it does work at least some of the time.
....
How much of the time? And how does that compare to legal methods of interrogation supported by the FBI, the Army field manual, etc.? The new SecDef/ex-combat commander told D. Trump that he gets better information with a beer and a cigarette than torture. You think he doesn't know what he's talking about?
http://www.businessinsider.com/james...orture-2016-11
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:39 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Again, you're overstating your case. It's not reliable in a lot of cases, but it does deliver accurate information more often than we'd like to admit, because we're morally opposed to it, so we've convinced ourselves that it doesn't work to bolster our case.
You can scroll through this thread. I and others have offered a lot of evidence against that claim. It doesn't work as well as other forms of interrogation, and it promotes bad information as people say whatever they can to make it stop.
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:39 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Again, it depends. The mere threat of hurting me or my loved ones would be enough for me to tell you anything you want, and accurately at that.

The reliability of torture (again, distinctly from its morality) depends on the questions, the victim, etc.
First, please keep in mind that I said that torture is a very poor way of collecting data.

Second, I expect that if you (or just about anyone) were actually faced with a situation where they were about to be tortured in order to provide some data that was needed by a hostile power, then that person would resist far more than they would initially believe that they would. At least that is what has normally been the case.

Third, I find it quite instructive to actually study how torture has been used to obtain data.

In the case of World War II, for example, lots of people were tortured in order to obtain information, and that information was normally obtained sooner or later.

However, people with really critical data were normally quite successful at holding out for at least 24 hours which gave their friends enough time to get clear, alter their plans, change the codes, and so on.

Furthermore, when new data is collected via torture, then the data has to be analyzed, verified, and then finally distributed to the appropriate people for appropriate action. And by the time all of these thing occur, then almost always the data has lost its value.

Accordingly, the use of torture is actually a very poor way of collecting data.
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:41 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Saying that torture may work in some instances isn't being "pro-torture" any more that saying that nukes can end wars means you're in favour of using them.
Actually, I do not know of even one single case where torture has actually worked anywhere near to the extent that it does on TV shows and such.

However, if you do know of such a case, then please share it with us.
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I offered myself as an example just minutes ago.
But you are only guessing. You have no idea what you would do in the face of torture if you had something or someone you cared deeply about on the line. If you are saying you can't imagine resisting torture, or can't imagine having something at risk worth resisting torture for, that is your imagination and not a data point.
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Saying that torture may work in some instances isn't being "pro-torture" any more that saying that nukes can end wars means you're in favour of using them.
I think a lot of the argument is confusion over the term "works" - or a lack of consistent use between us.

What do you mean, it works?

Proponents of torture cite it as MORE effective than other means of interrogation. The only thing that justifies the immorality of the act is the superior information-gathering effect. Sometimes it's cited as the ONLY way of obtaining needed intelligence.

The fact that at some point in the history of humanity a person has given correct information to their torturer is not, in my mind, evidence that it "works." It's like saying, "Hey, my watch says it's 5:00 and I just confirmed it was 5:00, it must work." Or it's stopped at the right place.

Torture is less reliable than more humane means. It generates more incorrect information.

Take the example you gave of yourself - you would turn over that information upon torture, but what if they were asking you something you didn't know? You would attempt to convince them of your lack of helpful knowledge, but eventually you would just start spewing out anything you could.

It does not work if by "work" you mean, reliably yields useful and accurate information. It works even less well compared to better processes.

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Old 20th April 2017, 12:52 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
I think a lot of the argument is confusion over the term "works" - or a lack of consistent use between us.

What do you mean, it works?

Proponents of torture cite it as MORE effective than other means of interrogation. The only thing that justifies the immorality of the act is the superior information-gathering effect. Sometimes it's cited as the ONLY way of obtaining needed intelligence.

The fact that at some point in the history of humanity a person has given correct information to their torturer is no, in my mind, evidence that it "works." It's like saying, "Hey, my watch says it's 5:00 and I just confirmed it was 5:00, it must work." Or it's stopped at the right place.

Torture is less reliable than more humane means. It generates more incorrect information.

Take the example you gave of yourself - you would turn over that information, but what if they were asking you something you didn't know? You would start by making that point, but eventually you would just start spewing out anything you could.

It does not work if by "work" you mean, reliably yields useful and accurate information. It works even less well compared to better processes.
But what about my contrived fictional example!
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:52 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
....
I offered myself as an example just minutes ago.
But you didn't compare it to alternatives, like maybe immunity from prosecution if you give up your co-conspirators, or even a big bribe. And what if what they wanted was the whereabouts of your children, and you knew your kids would be killed on the spot when found? You think you'd give it up easily?
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Old 20th April 2017, 12:59 PM   #61
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An FBI agent interrogated Saddam Hussein and he got him to answer questions without using coercion or threats. He treated him well and built up enough rapport that Saddam became emotionally dependant on him and wanted to talk.
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry 'Ziggurat', but torture is actually a very poor way of collecting data.

By the time the person is apprehended, the torture is used, the data collected, and then the data has been validated, then the data collected has very little, if any, real use.

For example, the Germans and Japanese used torture extensively during World War II and yet they still lost.
Um.... that doesn't tell you anything about the efficacy of torture. There's no reason to believe that interrogations of any sort were determinative in the final outcome of the war.

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Also, torture was used widely centuries before to discover witches and agents of Satan, and even though quite a few people confessed to being such thing, however no actual supernatural beings were ever found.
Also not relevant. When you go searching for a specific pre-determined answer by any interrogation technique, you're likely to find it even when it's not true. That's not even peculiar to torture.

Why are you latching on to the worst arguments against it, when there are much better ones?
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:02 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
You can scroll through this thread. I and others have offered a lot of evidence against that claim. It doesn't work as well as other forms of interrogation, and it promotes bad information as people say whatever they can to make it stop.
Of course it does. That doesn't change the fact that it often works.

Quote:
What do you mean, it works?
It provides reliable results some of the time. (I don't know how often)

Quote:
Torture is less reliable than more humane means.
That is my understanding as well. A carrot will give you better results than a stick.

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Actually, I do not know of even one single case where torture has actually worked anywhere near to the extent that it does on TV shows and such.

However, if you do know of such a case, then please share it with us.
Ok. The co-conspirators in the gunpowder plot gave consistent and accurate accounts of the conspiracy. Hell, in most cases the mere threat of torture was enough.

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
But you are only guessing. You have no idea what you would do in the face of torture if you had something or someone you cared deeply about on the line.
Now you're massaging the circumstances in order to present a different story. Sure, if the information being asked of me was something I really didn't want to divulge, I might resist a bit, but not much. I was talking in the general sense.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But you didn't compare it to alternatives, like maybe immunity from prosecution if you give up your co-conspirators, or even a big bribe.
I didn't need to, since the comparison wasn't the point of the discussion. Why does it now become the point?
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:03 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are you latching on to the worst arguments against it, when there are much better ones?
I believe I addressed that earlier: because we strongly dislike torture and are thus more likely to believe arguments against it.

You know, just like conservatives were willing to believe any story against Hillary or Obama.
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:09 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
....
I didn't need to, since the comparison wasn't the point of the discussion. Why does it now become the point?
Because the only possible justification for torture is that it is more effective than other interrogation methods. If that isn't true, then the moral, legal and practical arguments against torture are irrefutable.
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:20 PM   #66
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Perhaps torture really can more effective than regular interrogation techniques and the reason that the CIA's torture program wasn't is because they were incompetent at it? Maybe Trump should order the CIA to start torturing again, but this time only use the best torturers.
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:28 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Now you're massaging the circumstances in order to present a different story. Sure, if the information being asked of me was something I really didn't want to divulge, I might resist a bit, but not much. I was talking in the general sense.
Massaging the circumstances? In the.. the general sense?? Yeah if my waiter brought out the thumbscrews he wouldn't have to turn the knob too many times before I admitted I wanted spaghetti Bolognese...

Your scenario was half threat rather than torture in the first place; threatening harm to loved ones may be psychologically painful as well but it is first and foremost a threat, it's even written on the tin.
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:49 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I offered myself as an example just minutes ago.
That appeared to be you offering a supposition about what you would do in certain situations. I'm not asking about a supposition. You said that it works at least some of the time. I want an actual example about it working at least some of the time.

Unless you were describing an event that actually occurred to you. In that case, please say so, I will drop the issue, and you have my condolences.
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:59 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Because the only possible justification for torture is that it is more effective than other interrogation methods.
Really? Why?

I can justify plenty of things that aren't the best solution to a problem.

Quote:
If that isn't true, then the moral, legal and practical arguments against torture are irrefutable.
Wait a second. How is a moral argument irrefutable?
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:01 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Massaging the circumstances? In the.. the general sense?? Yeah if my waiter brought out the thumbscrews he wouldn't have to turn the knob too many times before I admitted I wanted spaghetti Bolognese...

Your scenario was half threat rather than torture in the first place; threatening harm to loved ones may be psychologically painful as well but it is first and foremost a threat, it's even written on the tin.
And? It changes nothing of what I'm saying. Torture has been used on hardened combattants and spies but also on innocent civilians and crooked politicians throughout history. Pointing out that it probably won't work against hardened spies doesn't mean it won't work against the other groups.

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
That appeared to be you offering a supposition about what you would do in certain situations. I'm not asking about a supposition. You said that it works at least some of the time. I want an actual example about it working at least some of the time.
Perhaps you missed it but I gave an example. Because apparently no one can look this stuff up by themselves.
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:06 PM   #71
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Quote:
How is a moral argument irrefutable?
How is a moral argument not irrefutable?

"This is wrong." should be: "Full stop!"

No?
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:08 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
How is a moral argument not irrefutable?

"This is wrong." should be: "Full stop!"

No?
I'm sorry, I can't parse your post.

Moral arguments aren't arguments from fact, but from emotion. How can they be irrefutable, or refutable, in fact?
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:13 PM   #73
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Here is a situation where torture would probably work. The CIA has your computer but it is encrypted and so they can't access the files. They use torture in order to get you to give the password. You're very likely to give them the password because if you lie, they will know right away and keep torturing you.

Of course, I doubt CIA torture program dealt with detainees who they felt they needed to torture while somehow being in a position to immediately know if they were lying.
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:14 PM   #74
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Just in case anyone here is confused by factual statements and are conflating it with moral ones, let me make things clear to you all:

Torture is, in my opinion, morally wrong.
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:34 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Just in case anyone here is confused by factual statements and are conflating it with moral ones, let me make things clear to you all:

Torture is, in my opinion, morally wrong.
It is a fact that torture isn't an effective form of interrogation. The CIA tried it not too long ago. The program was a failure.
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:38 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm sorry, I can't parse your post.

Moral arguments aren't arguments from fact, but from emotion. How can they be irrefutable, or refutable, in fact?

Because some things are untestable without causing irrefutable harm.

So we need to have a bright line where we say "A little bit does no good, and we can't see if more does better without dire consequences, so we need to simply stop here despite being short of provable facts."
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:04 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Perhaps you missed it but I gave an example. Because apparently no one can look this stuff up by themselves.
I have carefully reviewed every post you made in this thread and I do not see any real-world examples.

To be absolutely clear, are you saying that the following describes an event that has actually happened to you:
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The mere threat of hurting me or my loved ones would be enough for me to tell you anything you want, and accurately at that.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:26 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Because some things are untestable without causing irrefutable harm.

So we need to have a bright line where we say "A little bit does no good, and we can't see if more does better without dire consequences, so we need to simply stop here despite being short of provable facts."
Yes, we can all agree to that, I think.

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I have carefully reviewed every post you made in this thread and I do not see any real-world examples.
Not carefully enough, it seems.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
It is a fact that torture isn't an effective form of interrogation.
What do you mean by "effective", then?
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:10 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Jack Bauer used torture a bunch of times with success. For example, terrorists were trying to nuke Los Angeles, and he used torture to find the location of the bomb. If he didn't torture that terrorist like a million people would have died. Is that what you would have prefered, liberals?
Are you Alan Dershowitz?
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