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Tags Theresa May , uk elections , uk politics

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Old 18th April 2017, 01:52 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You would think that an opposition party that is in disarray, is confused over its leadership, and is way down in the polls, would rather wait until the planned date for the next election so that they can get their ducks in a row.
That would require Corbyn to say "We can't possibly win a general election under my leadership, so are declining the chance to put our case to the electorate". Not something a party leader wants to say.

(Maybe there'll be a backbench rebellion of labour MP's)
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:53 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You think they'd have any ducks left in 3 years time?
Hopefully so wouldn't want those duck houses to go to waste!
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:55 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
She's using the democratic system to achieve an undemocratic end, that is avoid any serious scrutiny of her policies........
Huh? There'll be a manifesto, you know, and you'll be able to buy one. We have a free press which will pick through it word by word. Could there possibly be any more serious scrutiny?
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:56 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You think they'd have any ducks left in 3 years time?
They may still have some ducks, but their goose is cooked.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:57 PM   #125
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And with this, the Tories are going to be in charge for a generation. There is no party that can oppose them.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:58 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Right. Going to the electorate to ask for a mandate is undemocratic.

Do you know what demos means?
No she's doing this to bury the opposition from her own backbenches, she failed to block parliamentary scrutiny of the Brexit deal so now she wants to make sure that scrutiny amounts to nothing more than a rubber stamp. It does parallel Turkey in that democratic means are being used to achieve an undemocratic goal.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:03 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
That would require Corbyn to say "We can't possibly win a general election under my leadership, so are declining the chance to put our case to the electorate". Not something a party leader wants to say.

(Maybe there'll be a backbench rebellion of labour MP's)
No, it just means he'd have to admit that they can't win a GE right now. In three years time, though, the whole British electorate will have become convinced of Corbyn's brilliance.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:06 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
No she's doing this to bury the opposition from her own backbenches, she failed to block parliamentary scrutiny of the Brexit deal so now she wants to make sure that scrutiny amounts to nothing more than a rubber stamp. It does parallel Turkey in that democratic means are being used to achieve an undemocratic goal.
This.

(the difference with Turkey is that she'll not be so undemocratic to abuse the state apparatus for her campaign or to rig the vote).
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:10 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Not if you want to keep Scotland in the Union, it's not.
Since Scotland has always voted left of the rest of the UK, I would imagine that the Tories would welcome Scotland leaving.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:12 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Some will return to the Tories, and some will stay with UKIP. Ukip will lose lots of votes to the Tories as a result of Brexit, but might gain a few from Labour because of Brexit.
I reckon UKIP won't field candidates where they suspect they'll lose their deposits, which would probably mean the Tories gain. We could be looking at years of unbroken Tory rule, which I find terrifying as one of those demonised disabled persons reliant on benefits.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:12 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, it just means he'd have to admit that they can't win a GE right now. In three years time, though, the whole British electorate will have become convinced of Corbyn's brilliance.
Well the nightmare scenario is that Corbyn argues that he just needed more time to get his message across and May was scared of that and so ran for the polls. Chuck in some denunciations of disloyalty inside the party and he could hang on to the leadership.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:13 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
May cited as one of the reasons for this early elections: "Labour threatened to vote against the final agreement with the EU".

Wait-a-minute.

That she thinks this is a problem implies that she views the final vote Parliament will have over the agreement as a foregone conclusion: anyone should vote in favour, and now already promise to do so, whatever may come. So why vote at all if you think the function of Parliament is the only be a bunch of yes-(wo)men?

This puts her in the same league, in democratic views, as Erdogan and Putin.
That's always been her line. "The time for division is over. We should all come together now (and do exactly what I want, you plebs)".
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:16 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
This.

(the difference with Turkey is that she'll not be so undemocratic to abuse the state apparatus for her campaign or to rig the vote).
Well May faces an opposition that couldn't organize the proverbial **** up in a brewery and she can count on 3/4 of the press backing her so long as she promises Brexit at any price. Heck even some of those I would expect to oppose her will be on the fence given the alternative...
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:18 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
I reckon UKIP won't field candidates where they suspect they'll lose their deposits, which would probably mean the Tories gain. We could be looking at years of unbroken Tory rule, which I find terrifying as one of those demonised disabled persons reliant on benefits.
This is what is so bad about Corbyn and his supporters - they prevent there being a credible opposition, which is bad for democracy and governance.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:18 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's always been her line. "The time for division is over. We should all come together now (and do exactly what I want, you plebs)".
When people were talking about parliamentary sovereignty I think she misheard it as parliamentary sovereign...

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This is what is so bad about Corbyn and his supporters - they prevent there being a credible opposition, which is bad for democracy and governance.
This is the thing, during the Brexit referendum Corbyn was either massively inept or he deliberately undermined official Labour policy in supporting Remain, either way he should have been gone and yet here he is simply nodding though every stupid idea May comes up with.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:27 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post

This is the thing, during the Brexit referendum Corbyn was either massively inept or he deliberately undermined official Labour policy in supporting Remain, either way he should have been gone and yet here he is simply nodding though every stupid idea May comes up with.
I don't know what's to be done. There's three groups:

- The UK electorate (generally somewhat sane)
- The parliamentary labour party (generally somewhat sane)
- Momentum/Union Leadership/Labour Party Members (support Corbyn*)

* aka not sane

The third group show no inclination to admit they are wrong... which begs the question, even if Corbyn resigns after a general election loss... do we just see McDonnell take over... ?
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:35 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's always been her line. "The time for division is over. We should all come together now (and do exactly what I want, you plebs)".
Good point. That, again, though, sounds just like Erdogan.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:39 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I don't know what's to be done. There's three groups:

- The UK electorate (generally somewhat sane)
Sanity is not the issue here, gullibility is. Every last promise made by the Leave campaign last year has been broken, May has done so many U-turns you would think she was auditioning for Fast and the Furious 9 and yet she still has a commanding lead.


Quote:
- The parliamentary labour party (generally somewhat sane)

- Momentum/Union Leadership/Labour Party Members (support Corbyn*)

* aka not sane

The third group show no inclination to admit they are wrong... which begs the question, even if Corbyn resigns after a general election loss... do we just see McDonnell take over... ?
My issue is not with Corbyn's being left wing, it's with his being inept and having a huge pile of dirty laundry just waiting to be aired in the press.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:41 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Good point. That, again, though, sounds just like Erdogan.
And Obama said "elections have consequences" - is he like Erdogan too?

How about Pierre Trudeau: "A man who tries to please all men by weakening his position or compromising his beliefs, in the end has neither position nor beliefs" - that is like Erdogan dialled up to 110%!!!1! No compromise - do exactly what I want!1!!

Oh, how about this one - a real Erdogan gem:
"Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking." - Oh wait, that was Clement Attlee.


All politicians (other than Corbyn) try to get their vision implemented in practical ways. That doesn't mean they are quasi-fascist.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:45 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
And Obama said "elections have consequences" - is he like Erdogan too?

How about Pierre Trudeau: "A man who tries to please all men by weakening his position or compromising his beliefs, in the end has neither position nor beliefs" - that is like Erdogan dialled up to 110%!!!1! No compromise - do exactly what I want!1!!

Oh, how about this one - a real Erdogan gem:
"Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking." - Oh wait, that was Clement Attlee.
ETA: Just reread these and realized hat none of them seem to have any relevance to the matter at hand. Obama's statement reads as a statement of fact. Trudeau's simply appears to mean you should stand by your beliefs, well May has demonstrated there is pretty much nothing she won't flip flop on for personal power. Attlee's point was surely that sooner or later the debate has to stop and a decision has to be made, which again May has a poor track record on.


Quote:
All politicians (other than Corbyn) try to get their vision implemented in practical ways. That doesn't mean they are quasi-fascist.
Unless of course they've made it explicitly clear they oppose scrutiny of their actions by the courts or parliament and actively seek to block it, how about then?
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:58 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You would think that an opposition party that is in disarray, is confused over its leadership, and is way down in the polls, would rather wait until the planned date for the next election so that they can get their ducks in a row.
Took the words out of my mouth. Labour faces certain demolition in June under a hopeless leader. In 2020, under a new leader and with heightened voter unrest, they may just have stood a sucker's chance.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:01 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well the nightmare scenario is that Corbyn argues that he just needed more time to get his message across and May was scared of that and so ran for the polls. Chuck in some denunciations of disloyalty inside the party and he could hang on to the leadership.
Surely not. If he even tries to hold on after a demoralising loss, he will confirm is utter disregard for the party and will go down as the worst Labour leader ever.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:03 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
And Obama said "elections have consequences" - is he like Erdogan too?

How about Pierre Trudeau: "A man who tries to please all men by weakening his position or compromising his beliefs, in the end has neither position nor beliefs" - that is like Erdogan dialled up to 110%!!!1! No compromise - do exactly what I want!1!!

Oh, how about this one - a real Erdogan gem:
"Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking." - Oh wait, that was Clement Attlee.


All politicians (other than Corbyn) try to get their vision implemented in practical ways. That doesn't mean they are quasi-fascist.
They're not at all like May's statement. When May says "Now is not the time for division", while there are still 1,001 ways to implement Brexit, she does so to shut up debate and she means that everyone has to mindlessly goose-step behind her.

May has far from a stellar record when it comes to democratic attitudes. Remember that she suppressed a report from her civil servants about immigration because it was not negative enough?
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:08 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
"The Scottish Independence Referendum Bill, setting out the arrangements for this referendum, was passed by the Scottish Parliament in November 2013, following an agreement between the Scottish and the United Kingdom governments"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotti...ferendum,_2014

Again an agreement with Westminster will have to precede any referendum thus adding time.

Can Scotland ask for a referendum before the divorce from the EU is through? If not, again more time.
Scotland asked for a referendum last month. I'm not trying to be snippy I'm just not quite sure exactly what your question is getting at. This GE will have no formal effect on the Scotref no matter the result. The SNP already have all but three if the available seats. Another three won't make any odds.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:18 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Huh? There'll be a manifesto, you know, and you'll be able to buy one. We have a free press which will pick through it word by word. Could there possibly be any more serious scrutiny?
He almost managed that with a straight face. Serious scrutiny from the press ... Haha... Yeah sure.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:23 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This is what is so bad about Corbyn and his supporters - they prevent there being a credible opposition, which is bad for democracy and governance.
Nobody is prevented from anything. All those credible opposition folks can stand against the Tories and credibly oppose them if they want to.

You might prefer it if the only choice was two cheeks of the same backside of course.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:50 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The only opposition party that seems to have its ducks in a row is the SNP. Maybe you could beg them to pretty please field candidates in England & Wales? For instance in the historic Scottish burgh of Islington.
Its been done, but not by Scottish nationalists. A century ago there was an Irish nationalist as MP for an English constituency (called Scotland).
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:55 PM   #148
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Does holding this election kill the Tory election fraud investigation?
When labour appoints a new leader will the media, then the conservatives, call them a non opposition à la under Miliband and Corbyn?
Can the Tories please set up death camps for us earning under £150 grand a year, just about managing isn't living.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:58 PM   #149
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<sigh> Looks like the SUN and the DAILY MAIL have already started their election campaign.

Let's face it, it was these two papers that swung it for BREXIT. One is owned by an Australian who lives in the USA (iirc) and the other by an Non-Domestic Resident (someone who gives his principle address as abroad to avoid UK Income Tax).
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Old 18th April 2017, 04:04 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by imodium View Post
Does holding this election kill the Tory election fraud investigation?
When labour appoints a new leader will the media, then the conservatives, call them a non opposition à la under Miliband and Corbyn?
Can the Tories please set up death camps for us earning under £150 grand a year, just about managing isn't living.
Nope. Channel 4 reporting upto 30 people facing criminal charges. Many Tory MPs.
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Old 18th April 2017, 04:12 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Nobody is prevented from anything. All those credible opposition folks can stand against the Tories and credibly oppose them if they want to.

You might prefer it if the only choice was two cheeks of the same backside of course.
Of course, 7 weeks is far too few time for them to organize. You don't build up a party and an organization in such a short time.

As to the comparison of May with Erdogan, I'm not alone in that. From the Guardian:
Quote:
Martin Kettle: May has trashed her own brand

Theresa May in Downing Street sounded like Turkey’s authoritarian president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. Give me the unfettered authority to secure the Brexit I want, she said. Any attempt to stand in my way is disruptive and frivolous. So give me the power to act in the name of the people against parliament’s interference. It’s not a nice parallel. May has trashed her own brand.
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Old 18th April 2017, 04:32 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
As to the comparison of May with Erdogan, I'm not alone in that. From the Guardian:
It's still hyperbole when the Guardian does it.
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Old 18th April 2017, 05:50 PM   #153
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You know, the SNP is in a good position here. Most of the seats in Scotland will be contested by sitting candidates. But even so, we have at least five seats we need to find credible candidates for. One good volunteer has already emerged. I spent some time this evening trying to persuade a stellar candidate to stand for another. Mostly, we're covered, but even addressing the few seats where we aren't is a headache.

Pity help most of the other opposition parties.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:15 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Good point. That, again, though, sounds just like Erdogan.
.......and every politician in history who has just won a divisive vote. You're pushing the Erdogan thing far beyond any relationship with reality.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:20 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You know, the SNP is in a good position here.......
Really? Maybe you were just focused on the narrow issue of having enough candidates in position, however.......

The other way of looking at it is that Scottish opposition to holding another Indyref, which runs to well over half of the electorate, might just help bolster the anti SNP vote. From the incredible heights of the last election it is hard to see the SNP doing anything but losing a few seats, and what would ordinarily be a stunning victory will look like an electoral setback for the party, for Sturgeon, and for the strength of her case in demanding a new referendum. I think the SNP have lots to lose, and very little to gain.

Further, what if Theresa May were to include "we'll reject calls for a Scottish referendum this parliament" in the Conservative manifesto? She will have a much strengthened hand for standing up to Sturgeon's self-interested demands.
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Last edited by MikeG; 18th April 2017 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:21 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You forgot: abolishing the GBP 100mn/week rebate that Mrs. T negotiated, and henceforth pay what everyone else is paying too.
Yeah, that too

Worsest deal ever, except for all the others indeed.

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Old 18th April 2017, 11:24 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You know, the SNP is in a good position here. Most of the seats in Scotland will be contested by sitting candidates. But even so, we have at least five seats we need to find credible candidates for. One good volunteer has already emerged. I spent some time this evening trying to persuade a stellar candidate to stand for another. Mostly, we're covered, but even addressing the few seats where we aren't is a headache.

Pity help most of the other opposition parties.
I gave this a little though and I think this election could truly push Scotland out of UK. Barring any surprises the election will result in England dominated by Tories and Scotland by SNP. Tories will ensure Brexit is a disaster and SNP will ensure Scots hear loud and often how Westminster is to blame for it all, pushing the support for independence up. Sturgeon only needs 50% plus one vote in a single referendum to justify independence, based on precedents provided by Brexit.

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Old 18th April 2017, 11:24 PM   #158
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I think the big deal in this election, which almost no-one has mentioned as far as I have seen, is the Parliament Act. Brexit wasn't in the last Conservative manifesto, other than in providing a referendum. It will obviously be in this new one. The Parliament Act prevents the Lords from rejecting government bills if they were in the ruling party manifesto. Strengthening the government's hand by getting a democratic mandate for the type of Brexit that they outline in the manifesto will remove the veto which the Lords currently hold. Imagine the situation where the Lords, and the Lords alone, reject the deal that Britain spent two years negotiating with the EU...........and don't forget for a second that the EU negotiators would know this was a possibility. Wanting the Brexit strategy in the manifesto isn't Erdoganesque, it is democracy.
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Last edited by MikeG; 18th April 2017 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:31 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think May is a jerk doing a lame Maggie Thacther imitation,but calling her a dictator is really over the top.
Dictator in the making is a fair and balanced assessment.

Quote:
Yeah, she is gaming the system. That means the system needs to be changed.
FPTP needs to go, the sooner the better.

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Old 18th April 2017, 11:34 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
..........Every last promise made by the Leave campaign last year has been broken.........
Sheesh. What nonsense. As Brexit hasn't even begun to be negotiated, it is obviously nonsensical to say that any promises of post-Brexit Britain have been broken. Oh, and as we're 9 or 10 months post-referendum, shouldn't I (by your logic) be 9/12ths of £4300 worse off by now?
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