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Tags Theresa May , uk elections , uk politics

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Old 18th April 2017, 11:41 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
...... We could be looking at years of unbroken Tory rule.........
I think we are anyway.

However, just to cheer you, you could look at this election as reducing the length of that rule by 3 years, given that there was little chance they'd have lost in 2020 (don't forget the parliamentary boundary changes due in before then). In other words, the earliest realistic chance of a non-Tory government is now 2022 rather than 2025.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:44 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I think the big deal in this election, which almost no-one has mentioned as far as I have seen, is the Parliament Act. Brexit wasn't in the last Conservative manifesto, other than in providing a referendum. It will obviously be in this new one. The Parliament Act prevents the Lords from rejecting government bills if they were in the ruling party manifesto. Strengthening the government's hand by getting a democratic mandate for the type of Brexit that they outline in the manifesto will remove the veto which the Lords currently hold. Imagine the situation where the Lords, and the Lords alone, reject the deal that Britain spent two years negotiating with the EU...........and don't forget for a second that the EU negotiators would know this was a possibility. Wanting the Brexit strategy in the manifesto isn't Erdoganesque, it is democracy.
This weakens the British negotiating position. Without this the British negotiators would always have the option of saying "we would agree to this, but the Lords wouldn't accept it". With this, they don't.

By contrast, EU negotiators have 27 national plus an array of regional parliaments they can use in this manner.

The aspect of manifesto strengthens the hand of EU and weakens the hand of UK. It's internal politics trumping national interest to the maximum possible extent.

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Old 19th April 2017, 12:53 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Surely not. If he even tries to hold on after a demoralising loss, he will confirm is utter disregard for the party and will go down as the worst Labour leader ever.
And if the party still votes for him to remain? The Labour party is its members and they keep voting for him.
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Old 19th April 2017, 12:59 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Surely not. If he even tries to hold on after a demoralising loss, he will confirm is utter disregard for the party and will go down as the worst Labour leader ever.
I doubt that the man who has shown utter disregard for the party and is the worse Labour leader ever will be cowed by the the idea of having utter disregard for the party and being the worse Labour leader ever.
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Old 19th April 2017, 01:33 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And if the party still votes for him to remain? The Labour party is its members and they keep voting for him.
Maybe - this is just an idea but it could be true - this fact tells more about all the other contenders than it does about Labour members and Traitor.

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Old 19th April 2017, 02:18 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And if the party still votes for him to remain? The Labour party is its members and they keep voting for him.
True leaders have to put their own ambitions behind the needs of their party. Even if he thought he would be voted back as leader, the decent thing to do is retire. Bloody hell, this is pretty fundamental. When you lose in a monumental way, you fall on your sword.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:20 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I doubt that the man who has shown utter disregard for the party and is the worse Labour leader ever will be cowed by the the idea of having utter disregard for the party and being the worse Labour leader ever.
Sadly, I think you are right. To repeat the point I've made many times I am a Labo(u)r man from birth. The worst crime a Labour leader can do is make the party unelectable. Corbyn is scum.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:25 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I think the big deal in this election, which almost no-one has mentioned as far as I have seen, is the Parliament Act. Brexit wasn't in the last Conservative manifesto, other than in providing a referendum. It will obviously be in this new one. The Parliament Act prevents the Lords from rejecting government bills if they were in the ruling party manifesto. Strengthening the government's hand by getting a democratic mandate for the type of Brexit that they outline in the manifesto will remove the veto which the Lords currently hold. Imagine the situation where the Lords, and the Lords alone, reject the deal that Britain spent two years negotiating with the EU...........and don't forget for a second that the EU negotiators would know this was a possibility. Wanting the Brexit strategy in the manifesto isn't Erdoganesque, it is democracy.
That doesn't hold water.

First, this is not in the Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949. It's merely a convention, and according to that wiki article, in 2005 the LibDems said they didn't feel bound by it.

Second, this Salisbury Convention says that the Lords wouldn't do anything to wreck a bill that was in the election manifesto, but that they still had the (moral) right to pass amendments.

But, according to the Parliament Act, the Lords cannot veto a bill anyway. When they say "no", it goes back to the Commons, and if the Commons has another vote on it and it passes, that's the end of it. If the Lords pass an amendment, the bill has to go back to the Commons too for a second reading. I don't see a material difference there: in both cases, the Commons has to do a second reading so it costs time.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:35 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That doesn't hold water......

Second, this Salisbury Convention says that the Lords wouldn't do anything to wreck a bill that was in the election manifesto, but that they still had the (moral) right to pass amendments.........
The second of the quoted sentences shows why your first is wrong.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:39 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
True leaders have to put their own ambitions behind the needs of their party. Even if he thought he would be voted back as leader, the decent thing to do is retire. Bloody hell, this is pretty fundamental. When you lose in a monumental way, you fall on your sword.
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that Corbyn is doing this to further his own political ambitions. I think he is doing it entirely to further the hard left cause, to keep the socialist flame burning. If the consequence is the destruction of the Labour party, well hard cheese (iin their view) because the Labour party is only a vehicle for the promotion of the hard left agenda when it suits the hard left. When the Labour party is not itself hard left, the socialists despise it and care nothing for its destruction.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:47 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
.......and every politician in history who has just won a divisive vote. You're pushing the Erdogan thing far beyond any relationship with reality.


That's a non-sequitur. Erdogan pushed the line before a divisive vote. May now also pushes the line before a vote. The Brexit referendum was last year, was a divisive vote but the main opposition party resigned to the result and agreed to a Brexit, however, they don't agree with the way and the terms May has in mind. That's still fully in line with the referendum, because there was no way for the voters to express what they expected of a Brexit.

This comes back to that Attlee quote up-thread: "Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking." . It's one thing, and democratic, when you say "we have to be united in this goal" after the decision has been taken. But when you do so before that decision has been taken, you do it in order to stifle discussion and you're undemocratic about it.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:49 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
The second of the quoted sentences shows why your first is wrong.


Whose quoted sentences? Yours? You claimed this was in the Parliament Acts. That's not true.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:52 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that Corbyn is doing this to further his own political ambitions. I think he is doing it entirely to further the hard left cause, to keep the socialist flame burning. If the consequence is the destruction of the Labour party, well hard cheese (iin their view) because the Labour party is only a vehicle for the promotion of the hard left agenda when it suits the hard left. When the Labour party is not itself hard left, the socialists despise it and care nothing for its destruction.
Yeah, okay. Even if it's not his own ambition, it is beyond selfish to oversee the destruction of a once great party. As I've said previously, the hard left is dead in the UK and always will be. The Australian Labor Party dumped its socialist doctrine and is a slightly left of centre, but more importantly, electable party. As Labour was under Blair. This is the only way forward.

Ideologically pure, but unelectable parties are pathetic.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:56 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yeah, okay. Even if it's not his own ambition, it is beyond selfish to oversee the destruction of a once great party. As I've said previously, the hard left is dead in the UK and always will be. The Australian Labor Party dumped its socialist doctrine and is a slightly left of centre, but more importantly, electable party. As Labour was under Blair. This is the only way forward.

Ideologically pure, but unelectable parties are pathetic.
To a normal person events in Hungary in 1953 and in Czechoslovakia in 1967, already discredit the hard left for good. Center left I can understand, but hard left, socialists and the like, lost the last vestiges of credibility no latter than half a century ago.

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Old 19th April 2017, 03:00 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
To a normal person events in Hungary in 1953 and in Czechoslovakia in 1967, already discredit the hard left for good. Center left I can understand, but hard left, socialists and the like, lost the last vestiges of credibility no latter than half a century ago.

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Agreed. And I once called myself a socialist.
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Old 19th April 2017, 03:06 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
To a normal person events in Hungary in 1953 and in Czechoslovakia in 1967, already discredit the hard left for good. Center left I can understand, but hard left, socialists and the like, lost the last vestiges of credibility no latter than half a century ago.

McHrozni
And as the right lurches further and further right you can just keep redefining 'hard left' and discredit anything with any semblance of social conscience. There must be no dissent from the right wing orthodoxy.
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Old 19th April 2017, 03:09 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And as the right lurches further and further right you can just keep redefining 'hard left' and discredit anything with any semblance of social conscience. There must be no dissent from the right wing orthodoxy.
Maybe, but this is not even similar to what I'm doing. Socialism has been tested on over 20 states and proven to be a dismal failure 100% of the time. Corbyn described himself as a socialist. How am I redefining anything?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...future-8931555

Socialism of the 21st century. You know who else spoke of that? Hugo Chavez.

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Old 19th April 2017, 03:26 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Maybe, but this is not even similar to what I'm doing. Socialism has been tested on over 20 states and proven to be a dismal failure 100% of the time. Corbyn described himself as a socialist. How am I redefining anything?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...future-8931555

Socialism of the 21st century. You know who else spoke of that? Hugo Chavez.

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So rather than toss around nonsense descriptors like 'hard left' and start comparing the current Labour party to Hungary in the 50s why not consider their actual policies?

Your argument makes as much sense as saying that the right have been discredited by Germany in the 30s and 40s.
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Old 19th April 2017, 03:27 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sadly, I think you are right. To repeat the point I've made many times I am a Labo(u)r man from birth. The worst crime a Labour leader can do is make the party unelectable. Corbyn is scum.
He's basically a cuckoo. He has never been Labour, always voting against the party, and he was elected by a huge influx of the far left, not traditional Labour voters. A socialist party has no chance of attaining power under its own steam so the only option is to infiltrate an existing party. People express surprise that he doesn't care about the party but there's no reason he should, he's not even Labour, he uses the party only as a vehicle to attain political influence for the far left.
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Old 19th April 2017, 03:37 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
To a normal person events in Hungary in 1953 and in Czechoslovakia in 1967, already discredit the hard left for good. Center left I can understand, but hard left, socialists and the like, lost the last vestiges of credibility no latter than half a century ago.

McHrozni
The suppression of the Hungarian Revolution was in 1956, not 1953: and the invasion of Czechoslovakia took place in 1968, not 1967. Watch out or you might lose the last vestiges of your credibility.

Did the Suez invasion and the Vietnam aggression of these same years remove the last vestiges of credibility from right conservatism? If a Tory candidate for the Town Council elections next month comes to my door to give me a leaflet with promises about how he's going to cleanse the local park of dog turds, should I say : you lot lost the last vestiges of your credibility at Suez. Be off with you!

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Old 19th April 2017, 03:41 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
So rather than toss around nonsense descriptors like 'hard left' and start comparing the current Labour party to Hungary in the 50s why not consider their actual policies?
Policies like these, you mean:

We will build a million new homes in five years, with at least half a million council homes, through our public investment strategy. We will end insecurity for private renters by introducing rent controls, secure tenancies and a charter of private tenants’ rights, and increase access to affordable home ownership.

Building new homes and price controls are right at the heart of how Hugo Chavez secured popular support.

Or these:

We will act to protect the future of our planet, with social justice at the heart of our environment policies

Using environmental protection to further social justice reeks of duplicity. If you're fighting for social justice say so, don't pretend you care for the environment in order to impose your brand of social justice.

Or these:

We will rebuild public services and expand democratic participation, put the public back into our economy, give people a real say in their local communities, and increase local and regional democracy.

This implies means worker management for enterprises (which worked 'splendidly' for Yugoslavia), or is devoid of all meaning.

I think my classification was quite accurate, thank you very much.

http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/pledges

Quote:
Your argument makes as much sense as saying that the right have been discredited by Germany in the 30s and 40s.
Germany at the time is an all too common response as to why we shouldn't follow hard right policies.

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Old 19th April 2017, 03:43 AM   #182
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Just so you know, if you don't support May, you're a "saboteur":

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Old 19th April 2017, 03:45 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The suppression of the Hungarian Revolution was in 1956, not 1953: and the invasion of Czechoslovakia took place in 1968, not 1967. Watch out or you might lose the last vestiges of your credibility.
Hungary was a typo, but Czechoslovakia was accurate. I wasn't speaking of the invasion, but of the start of the process to make the county more moderate, which ended in the 1968 occupation.

Quote:
Did the Suez invasion and the Vietnam aggression of these same years remove the last vestiges of credibility from right conservatism?
Vietnam aggression was an imperialist war waged by the Communist North against the non-Communist South. How on Earth does that destroy the credibility of anyone other than Communism is beyond me. Suez invasion saw Egypt rescued from foreign powers by US Republican pressure, how does that discredit right conservatism is likewise.

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Old 19th April 2017, 03:47 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Just so you know, if you don't support May, you're a "saboteur":

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experi...6d71441e76.jpg
Jesus. If this is true UK is making a very dark, Soviet turn. Is this accurate or a parody?

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Old 19th April 2017, 04:04 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Jesus. If this is true UK is making a very dark, Soviet turn. Is this accurate or a parody?

McHrozni
Oh it's true. And the Sun isn't much better today.

But hey it's the 'hard left' that are the problem.
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:07 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post

Germany at the time is an all too common response as to why we shouldn't follow hard right policies.

McHrozni
And yet people continue to vote for it and nobody says that Theresa is destroying her party by moving it to the right or brands her a traitor or claims that right wing policies have been discredited for good and suggests that the Tories should move to the centre left.
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:10 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Oh it's true. And the Sun isn't much better today.

But hey it's the 'hard left' that are the problem.
Many things are the problem. Hard left is one of them (see France) and so is retarded right-win media.

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Old 19th April 2017, 04:12 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And yet people continue to vote for it and nobody says that Theresa is destroying her party by moving it to the right or brands her a traitor or claims that right wing policies have been discredited for good and suggests that the Tories should move to the centre left.
I did mention several times over that the Traitor should do just that. I believe LibDems are not very far from that either.

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Old 19th April 2017, 04:16 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post


Whose quoted sentences? Yours?......
No, yours. The fact that under the convention, if a measure isn't in a manifesto, the Lords are entitled to block its passage means that your first sentence "it doesn't hold water" (referring to my comment on the role of the Parliament Act) is patently wrong. As you point out, that refusal by the Lords can eventually be over-ruled by the Commons invoking the Parliament Act, but that has hardly ever happened.
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The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:16 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Jesus. If this is true UK is making a very dark, Soviet turn. Is this accurate or a parody?

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the daily MASH is less of a parody than the mail...but yeah the numerous subhumans that read it probably agree
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:17 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Just so you know, if you don't support May, you're a "saboteur":....
..........according to the Daily Mail.

Sorry, but why would anyone take any notice of that snot-rag?
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The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:19 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Policies like these, you mean:

We will build a million new homes in five years, with at least half a million council homes, through our public investment strategy. We will end insecurity for private renters by introducing rent controls, secure tenancies and a charter of private tenants’ rights, and increase access to affordable home ownership.

Building new homes and price controls are right at the heart of how Hugo Chavez secured popular support ...

I think my classification was quite accurate, thank you very much.
So building more Council houses ... which the Tories were doing at the time of Suez by the way ... is hard-line socialism equivalent to the invasion of Czechoslovakia? I mean you're relaxed about "centrism", but building council houses is up there with slavery in the Gulag, isn't it?

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Old 19th April 2017, 04:19 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
..........according to the Daily Mail.

Sorry, but why would anyone take any notice of that snot-rag?
I often ask that question myself. It is a sad fact that many people do and apparently a disproportionate number of people in the demographic that are more likely to vote.
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:21 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Jesus. If this is true UK is making a very dark, Soviet turn. Is this accurate or a parody?

McHrozni
I'm looking forward to the show trials that they'll be calling for when Brexit doesn't deliver the 'sun lit up lands' that it would without fifth column remain supporters sabotaging it
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:22 AM   #195
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people thought the USA had it bad with trump vs clinton - at least there was a real contest between two extremely different options...

I'm currently looking for work so until I find it potentially have some time on my hands, vaguely wondering whether I should pitch in with the local lib dems somehow...would be glorious to unseat Vulcan but it ain't going to happen.

just seen clegg is standing again. the gall of that man
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:23 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Hungary was a typo, but Czechoslovakia was accurate. I wasn't speaking of the invasion, but of the start of the process to make the county more moderate, which ended in the 1968 occupation.



Vietnam aggression was an imperialist war waged by the Communist North against the non-Communist South. How on Earth does that destroy the credibility of anyone other than Communism is beyond me. Suez invasion saw Egypt rescued from foreign powers by US Republican pressure, how does that discredit right conservatism is likewise.

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You forgot to tell us that the UK and French imperialists who invaded Egypt were socialists. That would make sense of your argument. Were they?
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:23 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
the daily MASH is less of a parody than the mail...but yeah the numerous subhumans that read it probably agree
Big deal. The tabloid press, Murdoch in particular, has always opposed Labor in Australia. It hasn't stopped it from being elected roughly every second election. It's lazy and dishonest to blame the press for Labour's demise.
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:25 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post


That's a non-sequitur. Erdogan pushed the line before a divisive vote. May now also pushes the line before a vote.......
Jeez, it's almost like you're looking for an argument.

There is nothing new under the sun about a politician calling for national unity. Before, during or after anything at all is *********** irrelevant. Calls for national unity don't turn anyone into anything. May does not become Erdogan in any sane person's eyes because she seeks the end of national divisions. This is nothing more than a bland, empty platitude that every single leader in history has repeated at some stage or other. It is not some great conspiracy or first sign of a far right take over or whatever, it is simply hollow blather. Does my wife in her class of 8 year olds today become a right wing dictator if she says "come now children, let's settle down and all try to get along"?

Your ridiculous fetish for finding anything that May says to be Erdogan-esque is puerile.
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The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

Last edited by MikeG; 19th April 2017 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:28 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Apparently TM has said she won't take part in any TV debates for the election. Has she actually gone mental?
"Don't you think she looks tired...?"
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:35 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I did mention several times over that the Traitor should do just that. I believe LibDems are not very far from that either.

McHrozni
You suggested that Corbyn should move the Tories to the centre left???
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