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Old 18th April 2017, 09:34 AM   #41
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Will the song change to "God save the King" when the Queen dies?
The converse having happened in 1952, I would expect so.

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Old 18th April 2017, 09:37 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not from the UK, but I believe the answer is yes, unless at least three people die before the Queen (It might be more; I don't know who is next in line after Chuck and his two sons).
Harry.
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:42 AM   #43
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Creepy to the max (I pledge allegiance to the flag? and to the republiic for which it stands only as an afterthought???). And one has to do it every single day lest one becomes a subversive each evening, I guess.

Worse still I think it communicates the worse values of false patriotism. It teaches obedience to an object while ignoring the real aspects of our democracy in the USA! As a result too many false patriots have mindlessly learned to value the flag and its surrounding superficial symbols over the actual freedoms and values that are the truly wonderful and important things about the USA. Someone fails to stand for the flag or the National Anthem and they are publicly humiliated and despised. Yet the worse kind of hate groups use the flag as their symbol and attract even more supporters.

The flag is a symbol, yes, but itself is only a piece of cloth. It is what it symbolizes that is important. I would be much happier with a open discussion every day at the beginning of school of the meanings of and the complex issues associated with democracy and freedom rather than a pledge of any kind. Discuss what is important about our society and political system and how to maintain and protect it. Don't teach that because one pledges to the flag that one is thereby magically a full-blooded card-carrying patriot.

Last edited by Giordano; 18th April 2017 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:00 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not from the UK, but I believe the answer is yes, unless at least three people die before the Queen (It might be more; I don't know who is next in line after Chuck and his two sons).
Little Prince George, I think.

ETA: Actually, George and his sister are ahead of Harry.
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Old 18th April 2017, 10:02 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not from the UK, but I believe the answer is yes, unless at least three people die before the Queen (It might be more; I don't know who is next in line after Chuck and his two sons).
I believe William's kids have now moved in front of Harry, but that would mean there are still three males before the next in line, Charlotte.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:30 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Harry.
Isn't Harry one of Chuck's (Prince Charles) two sons? I don't know who comes after Harry, nor do I particularly care.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I believe William's kids have now moved in front of Harry, but that would mean there are still three males before the next in line, Charlotte.
See, I follow this so little that I wasn't even aware that William had children now. So, if Charles, William and George (lot's of Georges in that family) die before Elizabeth, Charlotte will be queen. Otherwise, the UK will have a king when Elizabeth dies.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:44 PM   #48
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Back to original topic of the post. The whole notion of pledging allegiance seems a bit antithetical to the notion of a democracy that supposedly derives its power from the consent of the governed.

Furthermore, the way the Pledge is worded, it seems that allegiance to the rag (excuse me flag) is more important than allegiance to the republic. Then they had to throw in that "under God" bit in the fifties, which as an atheist, annoys me, and it seems is not appropriate given that we're not supposed to have an established religion.

As for it not being recited much in the South, I suspect, as others have posted, that it's the "indivisible" part they didn't like.

When I was in school, I recited the silly thing. I've rarely had occasion to do so since then.

Last edited by CORed; 18th April 2017 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:35 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Yeah... that's not creepy at all.
There are pictures of like full class of black kids in segregated school, hailing like proud Nazis .. really some WTF material .. and the fact, there is US flag in the picture doesn't make it any less WTF ..

I'm not very sensitive to stuff like that much .. symbols come and symbols go. Japan still uses swastikas on maps as a mark for Buddhist temple .. they are going to change it though in the recent 'foreigners friendly' movement due the upcoming Olympics ..
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:03 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
See, I follow this so little that I wasn't even aware that William had children now. So, if Charles, William and George (lot's of Georges in that family) die before Elizabeth, Charlotte will be queen. Otherwise, the UK will have a king when Elizabeth dies.
This is correct. Charles is next in line followed by William, George and Charlotte. After that, Harry. If Harry has no children and Charles, William, George and Charlotte are all taken out by some kind of monarch-bomb, then Prince Andrew would be next in line, followed by Beatrice and Eugenie. Then Prince Edward and his children. Given that the monarch is pretty much a figurehead with very little power, who occupies the throne is not very important. Except we'd get a paid day off for each funeral and coronation.

Back on topic, the idea of kids pledging allegiance to one's country or flag gives me the boak. If you mean it, you don't need to say it, and if you don't mean it then saying it will make no difference.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:07 PM   #51
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My daughter brought up that she stopped saying it years ago. I was surprised, because she doesn't like to draw attention to herself. My wife had some reservations and vaguely mentioned something about people dying for our country. My daughter pointed out that the pledge has nothing to do with veterans, who she has upmost respect for. It was interesting.

The most interesting thing was her reason for not reciting it: a teacher in elementary school told her she had to. She thought that sounded wrong so she looked into it and found out she didn't have to, so she stopped.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:35 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My daughter brought up that she stopped saying it years ago. I was surprised, because she doesn't like to draw attention to herself. My wife had some reservations and vaguely mentioned something about people dying for our country. My daughter pointed out that the pledge has nothing to do with veterans, who she has upmost respect for. It was interesting.

The most interesting thing was her reason for not reciting it: a teacher in elementary school told her she had to. She thought that sounded wrong so she looked into it and found out she didn't have to, so she stopped.
I like your daughter.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:37 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I like your daughter.
She makes my wife nervous. Which makes me smile a lot.
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Old 18th April 2017, 02:56 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Back to original topic of the post. The whole notion of pledging allegiance seems a bit antithetical to the notion of a democracy that supposedly derives its power from the consent of the governed.

Furthermore, the way the Pledge is worded, it seems that allegiance to the rag (excuse me flag) is more important than allegiance to the republic. Then they had to throw in that "under God" bit in the fifties, which as an atheist, annoys me, and it seems is not appropriate given that we're not supposed to have an established religion.

As for it not being recited much in the South, I suspect, as others have posted, that it's the "indivisible" part they didn't like.

When I was in school, I recited the silly thing. I've rarely had occasion to do so since then.
When I was a Boy Scout parent/leader, we said it at lots of meetings and occasions. I wasn't the Scoutmaster, so I didn't organize these things. It was kind of weird for me the first time some said, "All rise for the Pledge of Allegiance." I hadn't said it in a long time, and it seemed very very odd.

The "under God" was particularly disturbing, not so much because I didn't believe in God anymore, but, having learned the history of that line, and learning that it hadn't always been there, it just seemed so very out of place.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:45 PM   #55
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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Federation of Planets, and to the galaxy for which it stands, one universe, under everybody, with liberty and justice for all species.
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Old 18th April 2017, 03:51 PM   #56
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Empty form devoid of meaning, insincerely performed from a combination of apathy and compulsion, resulting in no tangible outcome...what could be more American than that?
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Old 18th April 2017, 04:22 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Empty form devoid of meaning, insincerely performed from a combination of apathy and compulsion, resulting in no tangible outcome...what could be more American than that?
Don't forget the lack of comprehension and the nonsensical phrasing.

I do have respect for one memorable performance of the pledge, which was also said each morning at a summer camp I attended long ago. A fellow camper farted the first line "I pledge allegiance to the flag" in perfect rhythm. That was over fifty years ago and I don't remember his name, but it still makes me smile.
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Old 18th April 2017, 04:41 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
When I was in school, they had everybody stand and recite it, every morning.

Why do they have kids do it? Do most kids even understand what they are saying? I mean, I understand making federal officials take oaths and whatnot but kids?







WTF?

I'm assuming they don't do this sort of thing in most countries.
For the last ten years, my first lesson of the year is to explain to the kids what "indivisible" means. They all invariably think the country is invisible.
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Old 18th April 2017, 04:46 PM   #59
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Patriotism used to be popular.
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Old 18th April 2017, 04:50 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Patriotism used to be popular.
It is every two years
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Old 18th April 2017, 07:34 PM   #61
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Tony, you will find no small number of White Nationalist Southerners, who think that the Ku Klux Klan is not such a bad social club, and who still dream of spending Confederate Dollars, raging against the Pledge of Allegiance as an artifact of the evils of the federal government, and some will say that it is the work of the Jews.

Is that the company that you want to keep?

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Quote:
and to the republic for which it stands only as an afterthought?
Evidence that this was "only and afterthought." If you can support that, fine. When saying things, and writing them, some words come before others.
The pledge, most often done with a flag present, is hardly inconsistent by referring to what is in the room first, and then what the underlying thing that the flag symbolizes, in sequence.
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Old 18th April 2017, 07:56 PM   #62
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It is and was creepy. I failed to stand and recite the pledge in a US public school in 1969. The school exploded with outrage. My parents were called-in. The school's principal threatened to make me recite it over the school intercom.
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Old 18th April 2017, 07:57 PM   #63
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The idea that it's voluntary is pretty amusing. All those dissenting five-year-olds.
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Old 18th April 2017, 08:47 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not from the UK, but I believe the answer is yes, unless at least three people die before the Queen (It might be more; I don't know who is next in line after Chuck and his two sons).
You are right on the answer, but wrong on how you get there

The Order is Prince Charles, Prince William, Prince George. If they all die it's Queen Charlotte.
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:12 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Tony, you will find no small number of White Nationalist Southerners, who think that the Ku Klux Klan is not such a bad social club, and who still dream of spending Confederate Dollars, raging against the Pledge of Allegiance as an artifact of the evils of the federal government, and some will say that it is the work of the Jews.

Is that the company that you want to keep?
Speaking for myself, hell no.

Luckily, everything you wrote there is a huge logical fallacy.
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Tony, you will find no small number of White Nationalist Southerners, who think that the Ku Klux Klan is not such a bad social club, and who still dream of spending Confederate Dollars, raging against the Pledge of Allegiance as an artifact of the evils of the federal government, and some will say that it is the work of the Jews.

Is that the company that you want to keep?

@Giordano

Evidence that this was "only and afterthought." If you can support that, fine. When saying things, and writing them, some words come before others.
The pledge, most often done with a flag present, is hardly inconsistent by referring to what is in the room first, and then what the underlying thing that the flag symbolizes, in sequence.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands."
Not just which comes first, but the entire structure of that phrase. Why not "pledge allegiance to the republic of the United States symbolized by this flag?" And exactly what kind of allegiance does one pledge to a piece of cloth? In fact why pledge allegiance to the republic or flag at all, rather than dedicate one's self to the ideals of that republic?

As to your first part: total logical fallacy: because the Klu Klux Klan likes white sheets should I avoid using them on my bed. And in fact many many extreme right wing groups including the KKK whole heartedly embrace the American flag. http://www.rulen.com/kkk/

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Old 18th April 2017, 09:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Tony, you will find no small number of White Nationalist Southerners, who think that the Ku Klux Klan is not such a bad social club, and who still dream of spending Confederate Dollars, raging against the Pledge of Allegiance as an artifact of the evils of the federal government, and some will say that it is the work of the Jews.

Is that the company that you want to keep?
They probably brush their teeth too, those bastards.
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Old 18th April 2017, 09:52 PM   #68
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I don't think it's creepy. It's just an antiquated practice that we've been doing for so long that it just seems like the right thing to do even if it doesn't really mean anything anymore.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:43 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Empty form devoid of meaning, insincerely performed from a combination of apathy and compulsion, resulting in no tangible outcome...what could be more American than that?

Casual observation seems to inform me that the US is increasingly concerned with appearance over results.

2020 has arrived early, it's style over substance from here on in.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:46 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Tony, you will find no small number of White Nationalist Southerners, who think that the Ku Klux Klan is not such a bad social club, and who still dream of spending Confederate Dollars, raging against the Pledge of Allegiance as an artifact of the evils of the federal government, and some will say that it is the work of the Jews.

Is that the company that you want to keep?


Erm, you know that's no argument at all.

Lots of fascists wear jeans. I'm not going to stop wearing jeans.
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Old 19th April 2017, 03:51 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
For the last ten years, my first lesson of the year is to explain to the kids what "indivisible" means. They all invariably think the country is invisible.

That's because invisible is cool. It's like a superpower. The invisible country. You won't know we're there, until it's too late! "One nation, plausibly deniable..."

"Indivisible" just makes it sound like everyone sucks at arithmetic. Which is true, but why emphasize it?
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Old 19th April 2017, 04:06 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
"I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands."
Not just which comes first, but the entire structure of that phrase. Why not "pledge allegiance to the republic of the United States symbolized by this flag?" And exactly what kind of allegiance does one pledge to a piece of cloth? In fact why pledge allegiance to the republic or flag at all, rather than dedicate one's self to the ideals of that republic?
I think the idea is that the words are being addressed to and/or motivated by the object. The object is the physical embodiment of some concept. You pledge allegiance in the presence of the flag, and address the words to the flag itself, but the idea is that the flag is just a stand-in to represent something that has no physical presence.

It's a bit like bowing before a throne or a crown, or genuflecting in front of a crucifix. And, just like with those rituals, people end up wrapping the object itself with superstitious belief.
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:04 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Patriotism used to be popular.
So was slavery.
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:09 AM   #74
Argumemnon
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Shouldn't you pledge allegiance to the founding principles of the Union and to its people instead of a flag?
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:10 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Patriotism used to be popular.
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
So was slavery.
You mean the slaves were patriotic toward their home country or their new country?

Sure, in either case it's admirable, what with them being slaves and all, but if you live in one country and maintain loyalty to another, that can be problematic. Are you suggesting the pledge of allegiance served as a mechanism to separate loyal slaves from possibly traitorous slaves?
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:23 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
You want really weird and creepy - in elementary school, after the pledge we had to sing My Country tis of Thee.
Lucky you. We used (in the UK , mid 1980s) to have to sing hymns and say the Lord's prayer every morning, and it wasn't a religious school. I got really good at making up fake lyrics "Amazing grapes, how sweet and round...") and saying the Lord's prayer backwards
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:28 AM   #77
Spindrift
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
You mean the slaves were patriotic toward their home country or their new country?

Sure, in either case it's admirable, what with them being slaves and all, but if you live in one country and maintain loyalty to another, that can be problematic. Are you suggesting the pledge of allegiance served as a mechanism to separate loyal slaves from possibly traitorous slaves?
None of the above.
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:39 AM   #78
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We don't care about soccer or cricket in the US. That leaves the Olympics as the only time we can be proud to be American without seeming douchey.

Even the old standard of honoring the armed forces is now more about the soldiers than about nationalism. Our brand is shot. We need a serious win. Unfortunately, if we get one, Trump will take credit and he's terrible for brand USA.
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:28 AM   #79
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When I was in elementary school they did not require us to recite the pledge..

Until 4th grade, which I hit in the middle 70's and the word came down that we had to recite it. I'm not sure from where this edict came but at first the teachers laughed at the idea since they had not done so in ages, but the word came down again that they were serious. We started reciting the pledge.

I'm not sure why this was done - this was hardly the era of Reagan-esque patriotism. I think Carter was barely President at the time. Don't know if it was a city or state mandate either.
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:29 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Will the song change to "God save the King" when the Queen dies?
Yes!! (this may be ninjaed as it is an immediate response to the question)!!
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