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Old 19th April 2017, 07:32 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My daughter brought up that she stopped saying it years ago. I was surprised, because she doesn't like to draw attention to herself. My wife had some reservations and vaguely mentioned something about people dying for our country. My daughter pointed out that the pledge has nothing to do with veterans, who she has upmost respect for. It was interesting.

The most interesting thing was her reason for not reciting it: a teacher in elementary school told her she had to. She thought that sounded wrong so she looked into it and found out she didn't have to, so she stopped.
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:38 AM   #82
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In all fairness, as a teacher I a) told my students (if any complained someone was not) that they were NOT required to say it. Then added, because I knew it to be true from my security clearance in the Army and what happened to the security clearance of one of my wife's students, that anyone going into the Military or getting a job in companies where they needed a military type security clearance would be investigated and part of that would be their teachers and questions such as "Was he patriotic?" (equivalent) were part of what was looked for.
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:41 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Obligatory reminder: "Under God" was added in the 50's during the peak of the Red Scare. It was not, as the god botherers would have you believe, crafted by Thomas Jefferson in the midst of a religious orgasm.

I went to a business event where they had us recite the Pledge. It was...very odd. Strange enough when it's kids, but 300 adults standing in a conference room...
That was St. Theresa (the enreddened).
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:48 AM   #84
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I only recall doing the pledge in grade school (1970's). Pretty sure I opted out (even though we were never actuallygiven the option) and just stood there right around the same time I figured out the Catholic Church was full of ****. Probably around 3rd grade.
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Old 19th April 2017, 08:05 AM   #85
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I find it objectionable, from a religious (Catholic) point of view. Others interpret it differently, but to me it seems to be suggesting that the US and/or Americans have a special place in God's eyes, which is a form of patriotic religious arrogance, as if God likes the USA and its people more than others.

I also object that it is pledging allegiance to the flag, not to the country, not to the constitution. I've sworn an oath to support the US and NY state constitutions, and had no problem with that. But I would have a problem saying the pledge including for free speech reasons (e.g. re protests using the flag, though I don't like such, having sworn an oath to uphold the constitution, I'd have a problem with putting the flag on too much of a pedestal).
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Old 19th April 2017, 08:37 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
You are right on the answer, but wrong on how you get there

The Order is Prince Charles, Prince William, Prince George. If they all die it's Queen Charlotte.
Yes, I somehow managed to miss, or forget, that William has children. I was aware that his children move ahead of his brother in the succession.
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Old 19th April 2017, 01:19 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Back in the 50's when I was in grade school, we said the pledge, the Lord's prayer, and sang one of several patriotic songs (alternating between the national anthem, America, and America the Beautiful). I'm old enough to remember the gratuitous and stupid insertion of "under God" to the pledge by the Eisenhower administration, which along with making it conspicuously unsecular also made no sense in the context of the statement, which was, of course, an affirmation of union. I think the muddying of that may have suited the south at the time.

Of course one of my pet peeves in addition was, when the conservative bible thumpers started yakking about how we needed prayer in the schools, as if it had not already failed. My generation had prayer in the schools, and we're the ones who balked and became hippies and everything the conservative bible thumpers hated. Prayer in the schools was a conspicuous, palpable failure. Stupid then, stupid always, the creature of people who care more about the shell than the egg inside.


It's a mystery to me why people who are truly religious should ever want school prayer, knowing as they must if they're not utter fools that children will come to see the prayer as nothing at all, just words they must speak without belief, and that in order to satisfy the requirements of diversity any school prayer must be so generic and ecumenical that it could hardly have any true content anyway. In the real world, school prayer was never prayer. It was something you mouthed mechanically so they'd let you get on with it.

It may be, as applecorped says, "only words," but I think it is a bad idea to make children see things that way. We are constantly infected with the attitude that what we say is just words, and many with the attitude that the symbol is more important than what it stands for. Flag protection in which the flag is made sacred at the expense of the liberty it stands for.

It starts there, I think. We're teaching our children to act thoughtlessly and think in platitudes.
I've made pretty much that point in discussing mandatory "broadly Christian" (I think that is the correct wording") Assemblies that were mandatory in most UK schools in the 1980s...


There is nothing like seeing a load of teachers mouthing along with the platitudes when you know that they're generally agnostic or atheist.

I think of most* of Britain as having been inoculated with the feeblest strain of religiosity.


*Particularly the CofE parts of England. But that is a tradition, going back to the 18th Century at least, when those sons of minor gentry who couldn't afford a commission, and couldn't live off their estates tried for the Clergy, so that being devout wasn't a prerequisite for Clerical office.

ETA: Results from searching for my posts containing "CofE" (not that this is a bit of a hobby horse with me)



Seeing a load of teachers failing to look sincere during the most boring ten-minutes a day as they try to lead prayers to someone they don't believe in is quite a good inoculation.


Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that attending compulsory assemblies "with a broadly Christian theme" presented by openly atheist or agnostic teachers might have something to do with it. That is how I remember school in the 1980s. At that time, there were far more people who went to church (CofE) because that was the thing to do: "I don't believe in rubbish like that, I'm CofE, dammit" (this could refer to anything from transubstantiation, to any of the miracles in the bible).

More recently, I think that now only people who actually believe* attend CofE churches. I still find it odd that CofE churchgoers actually seem quite serious about Christianity. That is against all the traditions of the Established Church of England.

I think that for many in the UK, religion isn't important enough to even decide whether to be agnostic. That, and a lot of those who are Christian do believe in evolution, etc.

I did actually have a former colleague who was a full-blown religious fundamentalist, which was very odd. He is the only person I have heard to shout about heresy and blasphemy (when someone made a joke about evolution).






*Apart from vicars, and some of them seem to believe too.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think the UK is slightly odd because the largest constituent country has an established church which possibly skewed the results.

Until fairly recently, I'd say that many people in the CofE probably were "generally in favour" of the church and especially the good causes and social aspects, but probably would be very suspicious about anyone talking about their faith. (Something that wouldn't have been dispelled by looking at news stories about US tele-evangelists)...

I wonder if the recent lurch of the CofE has been because the "Not-really-believers" have stopped bothering to go to church, leaving it to the rump of True Believers.

The CofE is the only church I can think of where the following would actually make sense, even if it is a slight exageration "I don't believe in any of that, dammit - I'm CofE"




In most of Britain, talking about going to Church is social death. I know a couple of colleagues who are pretty devout Christians, but they are socially liberal and believe in evolution and isotope dating... I only know one YEC who has since retired - he's highly intelligent, but very Calvinist, and a complete literalist, (to the extent of complaining that some banter about evolution was actually blasphemy and deeply offensive). Quite a prickly individual.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The British experience - there is nothing as effective in the cause for secularisation as school assemblies, when the kids know that few of the teachers believe in the god they are talking to.

And of those that do claim some belief, many are CofE as in "Of course I don't believe in any iof that hocus pocus I'm CofE".

About the most nonreligious "religion" you can have. If religion isn't even important enough to you to consider labeling oneself agnostic.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that compulsory school assemblies and the establishment of the CofE can take some credit...

Seeing a load of teachers failing to look sincere during the most broing ten-minutes a day as they try to lead prayers to someone they don't believe in is quitre a good innoccluation.

As my dad said recently, "Yes, I sometimes go to church because I enjoy the language of the Book of Common prayer but nobody actually believes it do they?"

Ticking CofE on forms often meant, "I am so uninterested in religion, I can't even bother to claim agnosticism or atheism". Recently I think this has changed, so paople probably put "agnostic" instead...
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Old 19th April 2017, 01:27 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
In all fairness, as a teacher I a) told my students (if any complained someone was not) that they were NOT required to say it. Then added, because I knew it to be true from my security clearance in the Army and what happened to the security clearance of one of my wife's students, that anyone going into the Military or getting a job in companies where they needed a military type security clearance would be investigated and part of that would be their teachers and questions such as "Was he patriotic?" (equivalent) were part of what was looked for.
Is fake patriotism so important?
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Old 19th April 2017, 01:42 PM   #89
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A friend of mine who teaches Norwegian as a foreign language at a summer school in Norway related to me how the American contingent liked to salute the flag every morning, so the other nationalities got together and did some flag-waving and patriotic singing of their own.

When I was a kid in the Brownies and then the Girl Guides we had to take a salute and pledge, 'I promise to do my duty to God and the Queen and to help other people very day, especially those at home', and we had 'guide's honour'.

I was educated at a Church of England school, and I am afraid I was one of those kids who loved belting out 'Jerusalem*', 'Land of Hope and Glory' and 'I vow to thee my country'.

*William Blake would be turning in his grave now, as his poems were written in a revolutionary frame of mind, not 'conservative establishment'.

National anthems and flags? I love them! Makes me feel all sentimental. I'm going now.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:02 PM   #90
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I grew up in the liberal den of iniquity known as Portland, Oregon, and the last time I can remember being asked to recite the PoA in grade school was around 1981 (3rd grade). It's among those things I never really had to think too much about as a child because my schools never tried to shove God or country down our gullets, figuring that kids had more use for things like reading, writing, and arithmetic.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:13 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
* Israeli national anthem; picture "I'm a little teapot" in a minor key.
Jeez - now I've got that as an earworm. Thanks.
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:05 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
I find it objectionable, from a religious (Catholic) point of view. Others interpret it differently, but to me it seems to be suggesting that the US and/or Americans have a special place in God's eyes, which is a form of patriotic religious arrogance, as if God likes the USA and its people more than others.
Never struck me that it says we are the only nation under God, or the nation God loves best.

Of course, it's objectionable for other reasons, mixing religion into the official Pledge.
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:40 PM   #93
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There were a half dozen people willing to defend United for beating the **** out of that poor guy and dragging him from the plane.

Yet no one defending the Pledge. Interesting.
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:42 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
I find it objectionable, from a religious (Catholic) point of view. Others interpret it differently, but to me it seems to be suggesting that the US and/or Americans have a special place in God's eyes, which is a form of patriotic religious arrogance, as if God likes the USA and its people more than others.
"There is a providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children, and the United States of America”
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Old 19th April 2017, 05:50 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
You mean the slaves were patriotic toward their home country or their new country?

Sure, in either case it's admirable, what with them being slaves and all, but if you live in one country and maintain loyalty to another, that can be problematic. Are you suggesting the pledge of allegiance served as a mechanism to separate loyal slaves from possibly traitorous slaves?
Oh stop. You're not being clever, as you seem to think.
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Old 19th April 2017, 06:03 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
In all fairness, as a teacher I a) told my students (if any complained someone was not) that they were NOT required to say it. Then added, because I knew it to be true from my security clearance in the Army and what happened to the security clearance of one of my wife's students, that anyone going into the Military or getting a job in companies where they needed a military type security clearance would be investigated and part of that would be their teachers and questions such as "Was he patriotic?" (equivalent) were part of what was looked for.
Huh? Wall of text what? No military type clearance who?

Sir, you have a hill of credibility to scale. You're not going anywhere if you start-out with terms like 'republicker' as you always do, but feel free to waste our time. You were really a teacher?
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Old 19th April 2017, 06:13 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
"There is a providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children, and the United States of America”
The providence for the latter expired on November 8, 2016.
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Old 19th April 2017, 06:25 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Will the song change to "God save the King" when the Queen dies?
Depends on how Charles dresses.
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Old 19th April 2017, 06:29 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
There were a half dozen people willing to defend United for beating the **** out of that poor guy and dragging him from the plane.

Yet no one defending the Pledge. Interesting.
In principle, it involves kids reciting a pledge they don't understand. It's asking them to make an affirmation without really getting the content. This seems deeply wrong and close to indoctrination.

In practice, it doesn't bother me, so long as people can opt out. Really not that big a deal to me.

I was complaining only about the addition of "under God".
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Old 19th April 2017, 06:42 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Just words
And what is mightier than the sword?

Around my neck of the woods, almost all city, town, village and county government board meetings begin with the Pledge. Committee meetings do not.

There was one exception -- a village that didn't include the Pledge in their monthly meeting agenda. Since few people ever attend these meetings, most citizens didn't know about it or care. But since they started videorecording and broadcasting the meetings, the chairman got some nasty phone calls accusing the government body of being unpatriotic, so that body now recites the Pledge like all the rest.

Privately, I have spoken to several of the legislators, and they don't seem to think it is all that important. But to come out and say it would be political suicide. How could you get elected in a red state if you are a Commie? And you must be a Commie (or at the very least, a hippie) if you don't recite the Pledge on an hourly basis.

I would like to remind everybody of the Great Loyalty Crusade chapter in Catch-22, where each general tried to out-patrioticize the other. Soldiers had to sign loyalty oaths to get fed or paid, salute the flag, say the pledge, etc. on a frequent basis and when one outfit added another required patriotic procedure, the next one did, too. It was a patriotic keeping up with the Jones.
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Old 19th April 2017, 06:46 PM   #101
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Old 19th April 2017, 06:49 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Never struck me that it says we are the only nation under God, or the nation God loves best.

Of course, it's objectionable for other reasons, mixing religion into the official Pledge.
No, but it does imply that God is a necessary part of the setup which had formerly been secular.
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:26 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Huh? Wall of text what? No military type clearance who?

Sir, you have a hill of credibility to scale. You're not going anywhere if you start-out with terms like 'republicker' as you always do, but feel free to waste our time. You were really a teacher?
Certified, good, multi field, had no trouble each time we moved (only two - Nashville to New Port Richey (Pasco Co.) and NPR to Orlando from which I retired in 2012!!!!!, I found out the type of questions they asked because when I got black clearance (allowed to work behind the internal security fence in Ft. Detrick (Md) - (the one that was big when there were the big concerns many years back about weaponized spores of anthrax iirc). That was after my time though - the one I handled was the SE's (A and B). I was also (we all were - black badge or regular) inoculated for several things that out of Detrick soldiers were not. But as to the questions asked of FORMER teachers, neighbors and other assumably trustworthy people who called my parents to let them know the FBI was asking about me and what they were asking. I have no reason to lie about this - at the time it was not all that special but that was how I found out it was done.

Oh certified initially in Tennessee in Biology, Chemistry, General Science 1-9,
Physics, Library Science K-12. Certified in Florida in Physics, Bio., Media (Library Science)K-12, General Science K-12, Chemistry. Also taught media/TV Production though there was not a certification for that other than being a Media Specialist at the time. Had I been really stupid, I had the credits to get certs in Language Arts, Math and History (9-12) but avoided that like the plague. (Way too many required idiocies in M & LA).

Hope this answers your concerns........ I really do not exaggerate or lie - my opinions are mine and based on research and my knowledge base is strong and varied - knowing republickers want bad for most US citizens as in more than 50% of them, I am not fond of them and do not mind making that known. .

Hope this helps!!!
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:29 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
In principle, it involves kids reciting a pledge they don't understand. It's asking them to make an affirmation without really getting the content. This seems deeply wrong and close to indoctrination.

In practice, it doesn't bother me, so long as people can opt out. Really not that big a deal to me.

I was complaining only about the addition of "under God".
Hey, I'm on team "Pledge is stupid." Under God is actually harmful, the rest is just...nothing.
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:35 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Is fake patriotism so important?
We know one student of my wife's was let go from the Army based on questions my wife answered that were specific to trustworthiness and following procedures/instructions as he would be working with military computers (programming/repair/maintenance/updating). Unfortunately for him he had a disciplinary record that showed he was happy to do whatever HE wanted to do and tended to not do what he was told to do if he had a different plan at the time. That was, freely noted, not about the patriotism thing, but it was about following instructions and not doing what he preferred to be doing. He wound up back in his father's computer shop.

The patriotism thing was what came up in mine or at least was mentioned by those who called my parents re: FBI visiting. Apparently the FBI figured I was fine as I got the clearance. The only important thing that ever happened that could have been a big problem was when I had to carry a 5 liter flask of the SE solution from Pathology (where it was produced) to inside the fence (where monkey experiments were going on)). I was told, but cannot verify, that what I carried, had it been dumped in a major water source for the DC public (30-40 miles from us) 70 or so thousand people could have been killed.
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Old 19th April 2017, 07:49 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Huh? Wall of text what? No military type clearance who?

Sir, you have a hill of credibility to scale. You're not going anywhere if you start-out with terms like 'republicker' as you always do, but feel free to waste our time. You were really a teacher?
I just noticed by the by, that I clearly must not always start out with republicker as it is nowhere in what you quoted. But, once again, I do think it distinguishes well the difference between the real Republicans prior to around 1980 and the trash that came after them umbillicaly tied to right wing xtian tools purely to get their votes.!!!!
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Old 19th April 2017, 11:58 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Yet no one defending the Pledge. Interesting.
Darth Rotor is certainly trying to defend the Pledge. I'm not sure but I think marplots is as well.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:05 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Darth Rotor is certainly trying to defend the Pledge. I'm not sure but I think marplots is as well.
You can put me down as "pledge neutral".

I definitely defend the right of people not to participate. I definitely think the pledge was better before "under God" was added in. As for the pledge itself, and making kids say it (at least until they learn about rights and that they don't really have to say it) , I don't mind. There's something to be said for ritual, even if it is a little creepy at times.

And there's something to be said with having people declare allegiance to the concept of "liberty and justice for all" every day. I would like to think that it gives people pause on occasions when people are trying to curtail liberty and justice for some.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:50 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And there's something to be said with having people declare allegiance to the concept of "liberty and justice for all" every day. I would like to think that it gives people pause on occasions when people are trying to curtail liberty and justice for some.

I think, for some, the recitation of the pledge probably means they think they've done all the 'liberty and justice for all' they need to do that day and therefore they don't need to think about any injustices they may witness - they're good, they pledged it and everything.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:18 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think, for some, the recitation of the pledge probably means they think they've done all the 'liberty and justice for all' they need to do that day and therefore they don't need to think about any injustices they may witness - they're good, they pledged it and everything.
Kinda the same reason lots of folks go to church weekly.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:18 AM   #111
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I don't have a big argument with the pledge as such (except of course for the "under God" part), but I think it would be more meaningful if some effort were made to explain what it is, including why some people might find it a problem, and then to make it an annual, rather than a daily, event. In the process, perhaps then the kids could make an informed decision on whether the republic they live in warrants it, and the adults whether the republic they represent deserves it.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:21 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't have a big argument with the pledge as such (except of course for the "under God" part), but I think it would be more meaningful if some effort were made to explain what it is, including why some people might find it a problem, and then to make it an annual, rather than a daily, event. In the process, perhaps then the kids could make an informed decision on whether the republic they live in warrants it, and the adults whether the republic they represent deserves it.
Wait, what? It's daily?

I thought it was a once-in-a-lifetime deal. You know, it's a pledge!
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:23 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
Kinda the same reason lots of folks go to church weekly.
Great call and much appropriate!!!!! Though weakly certainly applies to a number of them!!!
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:29 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Darth Rotor is certainly trying to defend the Pledge. I'm not sure but I think marplots is as well.
Hmm, I will revise my statement: no one is defending the pledge and the forced reciting of it by children with the same passion that they defended beating the **** of a paying customer and dragging him off a plane.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:30 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Hmm, I will revise my statement: no one is defending the pledge and the forced reciting of it by children with the same passion that they defended beating the **** of a paying customer and dragging him off a plane.
Well obviously if the kids refuse to take the pledge that's what's in store for them.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:21 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Hey, I'm on team "Pledge is stupid." Under God is actually harmful, the rest is just...nothing.
In a country dominated by platitude-spewing, mindless dimwits disassociated with reality, maybe we should be wary of early indoctrination.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:28 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wait, what? It's daily?

I thought it was a once-in-a-lifetime deal. You know, it's a pledge!
Exactly. Rote nuttery.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:29 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In a country dominated by platitude-spewing, mindless dimwits disassociated with reality, maybe we should be wary of early indoctrination.
This bit of platitude spewing goes back to 1972 with Mr. Ray Charles:

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I AGREE


"America! America!
God shed His grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!"
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:31 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In a country dominated by platitude-spewing, mindless dimwits disassociated with reality, maybe we should be wary of early indoctrination.
I don't disagree, but in practice, it's mostly a chant by wrote that the kids don't think about until they're older and no longer required to say it.

I oppose that sort of mindless nationalism and would rather have the time taken to say the pledge used on better civic-minded activities, but it's just mostly a meaningless chant.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:44 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Will the song change to "God save the King" when the Queen dies?
When I was in grade school the song book lyrics still said "God Save the King"
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