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Old 20th April 2017, 09:18 AM   #121
varwoche
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
This bit of platitude spewing goes back to 1972 with Mr. Ray Charles:

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I AGREE


"America! America!
God shed His grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!"
Strawman. I didn't say that all expressions of nationalism are platitudes.

(Although I do generally think so. )
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Old 20th April 2017, 09:59 AM   #122
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"God shed His grace on thee."

Like a big shaggy dog sheds fur. Now that's creepy.
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:27 AM   #123
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I'm thinking dandruff, or possibly Typhoid Mary shedding bacteria
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:15 AM   #124
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This verse is crammed full of hard-sell patriotic imagery:

"O beautiful for heroes proved
In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine,
Till all success be nobleness,
And every gain divine!"
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:18 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
"And every gain divine!"
...something about scooping up dog poop and eating it.
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:55 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
Kinda the same reason lots of folks go to church weekly.
Kinda the same reason lots of folks go to church weakly.
So as to be seen going and noticed being pious. I seem to remember reports of a deity or so suggesting that quietly worshiping in a closet beat showing out in public by a lot.

I know it is all faked anyway, but I like that version as indicative of what a believer being pious should look like (nothing since completely private).
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:10 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Lucky you. We used (in the UK , mid 1980s) to have to sing hymns and say the Lord's prayer every morning, and it wasn't a religious school. I got really good at making up fake lyrics "Amazing grapes, how sweet and round...") and saying the Lord's prayer backwards
You are lucky Satan didn't pull you straight down!!!!! I admit to making new words for hymns myself ( Onward Christian Bothers!! for example)) In the sixties after some Heinlein input, there was Come to the Sturch in the Wildwood (Sturch = State church). Not mine (I wish!!!!) but "He's got tenpenny nails in his hands!!. Also a number that were really gross. Mad magazine, and some similar but not found in the general magazines if you get my drift and I think you do, really upped the rewrite list!!!!! A fun time to be bright, vicious and young the sixties were!!!!!!!!!
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:26 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Kinda the same reason lots of folks go to church weakly.
So as to be seen going and noticed being pious. I seem to remember reports of a deity or so suggesting that quietly worshiping in a closet beat showing out in public by a lot.

I know it is all faked anyway, but I like that version as indicative of what a believer being pious should look like (nothing since completely private).
I apologize here for repeating a joke - did not reread fully two pages ago and thought I had just come up with it. I can only say I really liked it as a joke response!!!
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Old 20th April 2017, 02:28 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
When I was in school, they had everybody stand and recite it, every morning.

Why do they have kids do it? Do most kids even understand what they are saying? I mean, I understand making federal officials take oaths and whatnot but kids?







WTF?

I'm assuming they don't do this sort of thing in most countries.
I was a kid in the 60's/ early 70's. What exactly is creepy about this? I remember singing "My Country 'Tis of Thee"....no creepiness here, just a patriotic song that ignores much of the social injustice that was common place at the time.
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Old 20th April 2017, 03:34 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Kinda the same reason lots of folks go to church weakly.
So as to be seen going and noticed being pious. I seem to remember reports of a deity or so suggesting that quietly worshiping in a closet beat showing out in public by a lot.

I know it is all faked anyway, but I like that version as indicative of what a believer being pious should look like (nothing since completely private).
That too, but what I was getting at was not just the being seen and noticed bit. But, rather, actually feeling absolved of any wrongdoings the previous week and feeling a bit emboldened by that. I suspect thats why we see so many stories of folks on Sunday afternoons being rude to waiters and leaving bogus tips that look like $20 bills but are really religious tracts. They know they're being dicks, but hey, they just got out of church and have a clean slate! What do you do with a clean slate? You write some **** on that thing so you can erase it next week!
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:45 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
That too, but what I was getting at was not just the being seen and noticed bit. But, rather, actually feeling absolved of any wrongdoings the previous week and feeling a bit emboldened by that. I suspect thats why we see so many stories of folks on Sunday afternoons being rude to waiters and leaving bogus tips that look like $20 bills but are really religious tracts. They know they're being dicks, but hey, they just got out of church and have a clean slate! What do you do with a clean slate? You write some **** on that thing so you can erase it next week!
That (the acting that way) is truly pathetic!!!!
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Old 20th April 2017, 06:59 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
That (the acting that way) is truly pathetic!!!!
Most likely the same sanctimonious sorts as beat their breasts as they utter the Lord's prayer loudly in public. If there were a Jesus he'd be turning in his grave if he hadn't...you know, skipped that part.
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:42 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I just noticed by the by, that I clearly must not always start out with republicker as it is nowhere in what you quoted. But, once again, I do think it distinguishes well the difference between the real Republicans prior to around 1980 and the trash that came after them umbillicaly tied to right wing xtian tools purely to get their votes.!!!!
Also, just as a repeated older reminder, I mentioned several times that it was also my response to republickers calling my party The Democrat Party (rather than it's actual name The Democratic Party. They started it!!!!!
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:43 PM   #134
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I admit to also liking it as it has the nice k sound of ku klux klan or similar which they seem to like a lot - especially the trumpfers!!!!!!
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Old 21st April 2017, 12:50 AM   #135
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Q: Isn't there some sort of inflation of exclamation marks? Fuelair seems to use them as if they are to go out of style or availability or something...
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Old 21st April 2017, 06:41 AM   #136
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Mod Warning The topic of this thread is the Pledge of Allegiance. Please return to the topic before I have to take some action. Thank you.
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:31 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Q: Isn't there some sort of inflation of exclamation marks? Fuelair seems to use them as if they are to go out of style or availability or something...
I blame the Pledge of Allegiance for all the stuff in this thread not about it..

And you must have missed my response some months ago on my large purchases of Exclamation points from Costco or someone else!!!!!
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:54 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Most likely the same sanctimonious sorts as beat their breasts as they utter the Lord's prayer loudly in public. If there were a Jesus he'd be turning in his grave if he hadn't...you know, skipped that part.
I have to wonder what part some others my be beating as they pray. And what they are praying for!!!!!
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Old 21st April 2017, 11:01 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
When I was in grade school the song book lyrics still said "God Save the King"
You are even more ancient than me! I entered this world 5 months after they had to change.
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:32 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Darth Rotor is certainly trying to defend the Pledge. I'm not sure but I think marplots is as well.
Strongly suggest you try not to make things up. I made two points, one of which has to do with how someone organized the terms -- and people did speak and assume things differently in the late 19th and early 20th century than now -- and the other to point out that if you want to join in with the rabid anti-Pledge faction, know what company you are keeping.

Flags are powerful symbols.
Original form:
Quote:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
People who want to carp about wordsmithing over a century later are, imo, being willfully ignorant.

Symbols do, and have for some thousands of years, been used as a significant surrogate for the thing or underlying reality they represent. If you look at the origin of the pledge, and why the flag is integral to it, the core theme of unity and union versus disunity is obvious. (In a related bit of US history, you may wish to investigate the loyalty oath required to return into the fold after the civil war).

If you are unable to see through any lens other than your 21st century myopia, I can't help you.

Interestingly, Five years before Bellamy published and began promoting his Pledge of Allegiance, U.S. Navy officer George Balch wrote a salute to the flag:

Quote:
We give our heads and our hearts to god and our country. One country, one language, one flag.
In the competition (if there was one) for whatever reason this one did not make the cut and the later one did.
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Old 21st April 2017, 09:57 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Strongly suggest you try not to make things up. I made two points, one of which has to do with how someone organized the terms -- and people did speak and assume things differently in the late 19th and early 20th century than now -- and the other to point out that if you want to join in with the rabid anti-Pledge faction, know what company you are keeping.
I certainly wasn't making things up, but I admit I may have been mistaken. Are you saying that you aren't in support of the Pledge of Allegiance? Perhaps you take issue with those who are strongly opposed to it, but yourself don't care either way if it's actually taken daily by schoolchildren (or have some other position that I haven't thought of, but which, if so, it seems to me you also haven't made clear?)

I'll also note that you haven't actually addressed the arguments pointing out the fallaciousness of your "know what company you are keeping" point.

Quote:
Flags are powerful symbols.
Certainly. That doesn't tell us whether or not taking the pledge of allegiance, particularly by children (as that seems to be the thread's topic) is a good thing.

Quote:
People who want to carp about wordsmithing over a century later are, imo, being willfully ignorant.
Can you explain why? You wording here suggests that the fact that the Pledge was written over a century ago is reason enough to keep it. Perhaps that implicitly makes sense to you, but I'm not following the logic.

Quote:
Symbols do, and have for some thousands of years, been used as a significant surrogate for the thing or underlying reality they represent. If you look at the origin of the pledge, and why the flag is integral to it, the core theme of unity and union versus disunity is obvious. (In a related bit of US history, you may wish to investigate the loyalty oath required to return into the fold after the civil war).
Sure. But that symbols can be (and have been) used in that way doesn't suggest that the same goal can't be achieved in other ways. Perhaps, as most seem to have been arguing in this thread, the best way is to simply teach children about the republic as it is, and explain why it is that way. In this way they can take pride and develop patriotism based not simply on mindlessly repeating a pledge, but on understanding the underlying system to which they are pledging.

Maybe there is an argument to be made that most people aren't sophisticated enough to develop those sorts of feelings in that way. Maybe there is an argument to be made the the republic itself doesn't merit those feelings and thus requires some other mechanism beyond the simple truth to cause their development, but personally I think that the former is not true and the latter is more an argument to change the republic than to rely on propaganda.

Quote:
If you are unable to see through any lens other than your 21st century myopia, I can't help you.
Any evidence that I am looking at this or any other issue through a lens of "21st century myopia"?
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Old 21st April 2017, 10:56 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Will the song change to "God save the King" when the Queen dies?

Depends if he turns out to be gay or not.



Being English, arriving in Vermont from 6 years in Canada, I learned the Pledge of Allegiance at ten years old, and even so it was a ripply singsong cadenced group chant to me, and the words never meant anything to me (especially "under god", since "god" was an alien concept anyway). Still, I was conscious of the meaning of the phrases in it, just never took them to heart.

Then later in high school, with the country in the throes of Viet Nam and counter cultural demonstrations of dissent, I suddenly remembered I was English one day, and stopped pledging allegiance to the damn flag, whose armed police were cracking the skulls of hippies at the convention in Chicago. I stopped putting my hand over my heart, but I did stand with everyone else, and stand silent and solemn. It was the least I could do. Me and a friend also published a mimeographed radical "magazine" with a couple of anti-establishment screeds in it, which got me in trouble with the principal, but my father told him to back off... funny days...
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Old 22nd April 2017, 07:12 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
That too, but what I was getting at was not just the being seen and noticed bit. But, rather, actually feeling absolved of any wrongdoings the previous week and feeling a bit emboldened by that. I suspect thats why we see so many stories of folks on Sunday afternoons being rude to waiters and leaving bogus tips that look like $20 bills but are really religious tracts. They know they're being dicks, but hey, they just got out of church and have a clean slate! What do you do with a clean slate? You write some **** on that thing so you can erase it next week!
The idea that confession (either to a priest or just in prayer asking for forgiveness) absolves one from the bad things they do is terrible for exactly that reason! And clearly is a major reason a lot of people get religion!!!!!
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Old 22nd April 2017, 05:12 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
It is and was creepy. I failed to stand and recite the pledge in a US public school in 1969. The school exploded with outrage. My parents were called-in. The school's principal threatened to make me recite it over the school intercom.
Yes? And?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 06:49 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Yes? And?
And Edward Snowden never overcame the trauma.
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Old 26th April 2017, 06:29 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm not from the UK, but I believe the answer is yes, unless at least three people die before the Queen (It might be more; I don't know who is next in line after Chuck and his two sons).
Charles, William, George, Charlotte, then Harry. After that I'm not sure because they changed the laws governing precedence so that older females don't lose out, but I don't know if they backdated it. If we lose that many in one go then someone did a King Ralph on us!

ETA: Not much ninja, I was beaten to it by just about everybody. Serves me right for being a Johnny-Come-Lately.

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Old 26th April 2017, 06:34 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
Charles, William, George, Charlotte, then Harry. After that I'm not sure because they changed the laws governing precedence so that older females don't lose out, but I don't know if they backdated it. If we lose that many in one go then someone did a King Ralph on us!
Are you saying that if I gay marry Prince Harry I won't become monarch? I'll have to settle for wealth and luxury and a hot younger man? Well, I guess I am noble enough to make the sacrifice. Okay, I accept.
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Old 26th April 2017, 06:59 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you saying that if I gay marry Prince Harry I won't become monarch? I'll have to settle for wealth and luxury and a hot younger man? Well, I guess I am noble enough to make the sacrifice. Okay, I accept.


I'm afraid there can only be one king at a time, though there can be multiple Queens (a ruling Queen, and one or more Queen Mothers, very Dune-ish). A same-sex couple on the Thrones would really kill off most of the Daily Mail and Express readers, so it's probably quite a good thing!

Back to the thread, before the Mods get unhappy. For most of my school years in the UK we had morning assembly, a little anecdote from the Head, the Lords Prayer and another little prayer. With increasing multiculturalism it seemed increasingly absurd and was eventually abandoned.

I've only given an Oath of Allegiance three times, on joining the Territorial Army as a sproggy 17 year old, on joining the Regular Army two years later, and on joining the TA again after leaving the Regulars. In our case it is very specific and there is a version that doesn't involve God:
I... swear by Almighty God (do solemnly, and truly declare and affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and of the generals (admirals / air officers) and officers set over me.
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Old 26th April 2017, 07:35 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you saying that if I gay marry Prince Harry I won't become monarch? I'll have to settle for wealth and luxury and a hot younger man? Well, I guess I am noble enough to make the sacrifice. Okay, I accept.
Prince Philip is a bit of a dud, but perhaps you could revive the Prince Albert look. He was pretty elegant in the regalia of a Ruritanian operetta. Gold epaulets. Or maybe a feather in the cap.
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Old 28th April 2017, 08:29 AM   #150
Jodie
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So what exactly is creepy about the Pledge of Allegiance? It's a declaration that you support your country....I'm not seeing the creepy factor here. If you don't like the god part then just leave it out.
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Old 28th April 2017, 08:56 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
So what exactly is creepy about the Pledge of Allegiance? It's a declaration that you support your country....I'm not seeing the creepy factor here. If you don't like the god part then just leave it out.
It's a meaningless declaration. There is no legal effect to taking the Pledge (or not taking it), so if you say the words and then do something contrary to the Pledge (say moving to Canada for the better beer, better health care system and soon to be legal weed) then having broken the pledge conveys no penalty. The creepy part is its use as a means of social control to create an unthinking support for the State by having it recited daily by people too young to understand it and led by authority figures.

Oaths of Alliegance by adults undertaking service to the State make sense.
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Old 28th April 2017, 09:05 AM   #152
epeeist
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
It's a meaningless declaration. There is no legal effect to taking the Pledge (or not taking it), so if you say the words and then do something contrary to the Pledge (say moving to Canada for the better beer, better health care system and soon to be legal weed) then having broken the pledge conveys no penalty. The creepy part is its use as a means of social control to create an unthinking support for the State by having it recited daily by people too young to understand it and led by authority figures.

Oaths of Alliegance by adults undertaking service to the State make sense.
Aside from lack of effect, I don't think living outside the US violates the meaning, spirit or intent of the pledge. Many loyal, even patriotic, Americans live outside the US for reasons unrelated to service to the US (i.e. outside military and diplomatic), it may be for job reasons, it may be for family reasons, it may be for health reasons, whatever.
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Old 28th April 2017, 11:53 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
So what exactly is creepy about the Pledge of Allegiance? It's a declaration that you support your country....I'm not seeing the creepy factor here. If you don't like the god part then just leave it out.
I don't think the pledge itself by itself is all that creepy, but a pledge is, or at least ought to be, more than a declaration, and thus should be regarded as more. The circumstances under which it gets used as a rote declaration are stupidly creepy, and the metonymy that results from its pervasive and thoughtless misuse is crazily creepy.
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Old 28th April 2017, 05:50 PM   #154
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I don't care for cost free patriotism. If you want to show love and devotion to country it should require some effort. Just standing and saying a few memorized sentences leaves me unimpressed.

It's also pointless since there is no penalty for going back on your pledge. And what the hell does it even mean to pledge allegiance? There's no specified acts you say you will or won't do.
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Old 29th April 2017, 01:57 PM   #155
Jodie
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Well I pay taxes, that ought to be enough.
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Old 7th June 2017, 01:40 AM   #156
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I don't understand why the Pledge has to be repeated so much. If I take an oath of office, I don't have to repeat that again for the length of the term. If I swear to tell the truth in a trial, I don't have to swear again every day of a multi-day trial. Why does everyone have to say the Pledge at the start of every day or meeting? Did the old one expire? Wear out? Lose its flavor overnight?
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Old 7th June 2017, 01:52 AM   #157
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Does your loyalty lose its flavor on the bedpost overnight,
If you miss it at a meeting, do they throw you out in spite?
Do you say it every morning, whether Centrist, Left or Right,
Does your loyalty lose its flavor on the bedpost overnight?

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