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Tags archaeology , Egypt history , pyramids

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Old 14th August 2019, 10:42 AM   #161
HansMustermann
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Could be, for the ones in the quarry. It still has to be new to be where a bit of rock was recently cut, though. Some of the others that the woosters produced were a bit more elaborate, though.
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:25 AM   #162
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"Star holes";

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMIudOPQJDc
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:41 AM   #163
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No actual written articles then?
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Old 15th August 2019, 05:06 AM   #164
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A star-shaped hole that's large enough and/or shallow enough to reach into the hole and shape the hole with a smaller hand tool is hardly a miraculous feat.
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:46 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
You only need to look at the still that is the thumbnail of the YT video to see exactly what I'm talking about. You see a stone face that is erroded and pitted and irregular, and a hole in it whose edges are surprisingly clean, smooth and conspicuously NOT eroded in any way.

And I'm supposed to believe that that's prehistoric in fact.

I'm sticking to my previous impression: even among woowoo, this strikes me as the 'by complete morons, for complete morons' kind.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:46 AM   #166
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For anyone actually interested, the bore-holes ("star holes") in question can be seen mostly from about two-minutes into the video.

Like I said - copper tubes and sand my (lily-white) a***.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:52 AM   #167
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Yeah, no, I agree about your ass. Err... I mean, about the copper tube. Those were definitely done in more modern times and with presumably more modern tools
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Old 15th August 2019, 04:22 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
@davefoc
I would assume that they didn't use iron, simply because this was happening before the iron age, really.

Egyptians actually starting producing their own iron is debatably somewhere between 1000 and 586 BC. A good argument can be made that it wasn't until the 7th century BC, when the Ionians came to the Nile Delta and brought along iron smelting. But it could be as late as 586 BC, which really is the earliest we can actually support with evidence.
If it seems way late compared to anyone else, remember that Egypt wasn't EXCLUSIVELY limited to imported tin for bronze, and it's one reason they survived the collapse of trade networks in the end of the bronze age collapse. Empires around them collapsed, Egypt survived only weakened.
(A parallel would be, say, China, which also couldn't give a flip and continued using bronze all the way into AD times.)
So, anyway, Egypt didn't have the same do-or-die pressure to move to iron as everyone else. Wrought iron weapons weren't really any better than bronze weapons, so if you still had the ability to make bronze, meh, it still works.
And the 1st millennium BCE is simply way late to have any bearing on most of what people talk about when the whole aliens things comes up. By then there were no more pyramids being built, for example.
Thanks for the response. I wasn't thinking about whether it was possible that the Egyptians could have used iron when I wondered about whether iron might not have worked as well as copper even though iron is much harder than copper. I see the copper tube plus abrasive cutting technique as similar to the idea used in modern cutting tools where very hard abrasives are embedded in softer materials. I suspect that might be a key to why copper works. The much harder abrasives are partially embedded into the copper as the tool is worked. This provides a mechanism to drag the abrasives around the hole being cut. I was just making a guess that the technique wouldn't work very well with a much harder material in place of the copper.

This line of thought led me to wonder about embedding the abrasive into the molten copper an idea that Rob Swanson suggested as well. I notice in a more recent post that he thinks that using the abrasive as a separate powder is probably more practical. I'm not sure. I think embedding the abrasive in the copper might be the most effective way to go if the manufacturing process for making drills like this could be mastered.

As to whether the Egyptians could have used iron: There were 19 or so iron objects found in Tutankhamen's tomb (14th century BCE) but as HM suggests the Egyptians were far away from making iron objects routinely at that time. The iron objects that were found were probably made from meteorites and they were probably not made by Egyptians and they were definitely made much later than the earliest holes.
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Old 15th August 2019, 07:18 PM   #169
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Well, there's a reason I was talking about iron smelting.

The occasional iron meteorite being turned into a weapon, sure, existed all the way to prehistory, but they were super-rare and therefore super-expensive. They also tended to be considered magical.

So, you know, if you actually had one of those super-rare chunks of magical star metal, would you rather fashion it into a weapon or two, or have it used up to drill a hole in a stone?
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Old 15th August 2019, 07:35 PM   #170
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That said, I still think that copper would be a better metal for a drill or cutting band even just for price alone.

Iron was cheaper than bronze only by the time they started properly smelting it from ore, and really only because tin and copper aren't found in the same place, so bronze involves a bunch of long distance trade. Iron was, however, never cheaper than copper.

Producing iron was actually quite work intensive. Producing iron from ore involved using charcoal and iron oxide ore, to basically burn the coal with the oxygen from the iron oxide, leaving a sponge-like "bloom" of metal with lots of bits of rock in it. (Sponge because just the iron had less volume than the iron oxide.) Then you had to heat and hammer it and fold it and repeat, just to force most of the bits of rock out. That involves a LOT of manual labour and a lot more charcoal after the initial smelting into bloom, to get a usable bar of iron.

Iron was actually incredibly expensive in the ancient world and even all the way through the early middle ages. It was only cheaper than bronze in that bronze was even more bloody expensive, and the weapon-grade bronze doubly so.

Copper, by comparison, you kinda start with a similar mix of coal and ore, but you just get molten copper that you can pour out, with the slag being left behind. No further processing is needed. You can pretty much do it on an industrial scale right next to the mine, with most of the work being just making the charcoal, and loading and firing the furnace.

The latter was always going to end up much cheaper than iron even in the iron age, as long as you had the copper deposits to mine locally. Which Egypt had plenty.

So my take is that basically I don't know if iron would be better for dragging sand around, but I doubt that it would be better enough to justify the difference in price. If it saves you 15 minutes when drilling a hole, but it involved an extra man-day to make the iron band instead of copper, the economics simply aren't there.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:21 PM   #171
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The drill holes seem to all have an odd number of lobes or points as well, don't know if that means anything.


Some pix on google.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:26 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
You only need to look at the still that is the thumbnail of the YT video to see exactly what I'm talking about. You see a stone face that is erroded and pitted and irregular, and a hole in it whose edges are surprisingly clean, smooth and conspicuously NOT eroded in any way.

And I'm supposed to believe that that's prehistoric in fact.

I'm sticking to my previous impression: even among woowoo, this strikes me as the 'by complete morons, for complete morons' kind.
Ancient Starhole Aliens be using Torxô spec. bitches!
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:43 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I'm reminded that a handheld drill tends to want to make triangular (well, 3-lobed) holes in sheet metal if you don't hold it still enough. It made me think about how a long drill bit with a chisel tip might precess (if that's the right term) and make interesting shapes as you drill deep into rock in a quarry.
From what I can gather, that appears to be basically it. They are holes drilled for mine blasting. They intend to drill a circular hole, but sometimes the vibrations get caught in reinforced frequency patterns and they get star holes.

See:

http://www.stonestructures.org/html/star-holes.html

https://www.andywhiteanthropology.co...ry/stone-holes
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:16 AM   #174
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re. polygonal / star-shaped holes;

I wonder if there's any connection to the neolithic 'stone balls' (or 'stone things') which turn up all over Northern Europe? There's a correspondence in the shape and size shape of many of them, and as with the bore-holes it's practically impossible to explain how they were made (no metal at all at the time).
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:29 AM   #175
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"No metal at all" is actually wrong for most of the Neolithic. Copper has been in use from circa 8000 BCE, which is actually a lot earlier than the first known stone balls.

In fact, one of the sites in China literally discovered a copper sword together with the stone balls. So, you know, so much for "no metal at all".

Second, you don't actually need metal anyway to polish stone. As I was saying on the first flippin' page, in a pinch you can use wood just as well. In fact nowadays sanding a hole is mostly done with a wooden dowel.

Hell, you can even use PAPER to rub something with sand. You know, SANDPAPER? It wouldn't have been known at the time, but just shows that you don't actually need anything stronger than paper to get the job done.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:47 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
"No metal at all" is actually wrong for most of the Neolithic. Copper has been in use from circa 8000 BCE, which is actually a lot earlier than the first known stone balls.

In fact, one of the sites in China literally discovered a copper sword together with the stone balls. So, you know, so much for "no metal at all".

Second, you don't actually need metal anyway to polish stone. As I was saying on the first flippin' page, in a pinch you can use wood just as well. In fact nowadays sanding a hole is mostly done with a wooden dowel.

Hell, you can even use PAPER to rub something with sand. You know, SANDPAPER? It wouldn't have been known at the time, but just shows that you don't actually need anything stronger than paper to get the job done.
I understand what you're saying; for thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of years, modern humans just didn't know what to do with themselves and whiled away the time maneuvering megaliths around the landscape and carving intricate stone ornaments (perhaps they were paperweights? The paper wouldn't have left traces I guess). But essentially it was all a meaningless waste of that time and effort, motivated by nothing but superstition and "woo", no mystery in any of it.
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:12 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I understand what you're saying; for thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of years, modern humans just didn't know what to do with themselves and whiled away the time maneuvering megaliths around the landscape and carving intricate stone ornaments (perhaps they were paperweights? The paper wouldn't have left traces I guess). But essentially it was all a meaningless waste of that time and effort, motivated by nothing but superstition and "woo", no mystery in any of it.
For how long is the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona being built now? And have you seen the size of the thing? Or for that matter any respectable cathedral?

Very beautifull, but essentially it is alll a meaningless waste of that time and effort, motivated by nothing more than superstition and "woo", no mystery in any of it.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:20 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
For how long is the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona being built now? And have you seen the size of the thing? Or for that matter any respectable cathedral?

Very beautifull, but essentially it is alll a meaningless waste of that time and effort, motivated by nothing more than superstition and "woo", no mystery in any of it.
You and I might as well speak different languages. I fear you just can't or won't (i.e. you will refuse, out of pathology) understand what I'm saying.

We can all see how your example is being built, hence no 'mystery', but if you have explanations for how those boreholes and the 'things' were made, then please present them, preferably with modern examples that duplicate them. That's rhetorical - you won't be able to do do so.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:33 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
You and I might as well speak different languages. I fear you just can't or won't (i.e. you will refuse, out of pathology) understand what I'm saying.

We can all see how your example is being built, hence no 'mystery', but if you have explanations for how those boreholes and the 'things' were made, then please present them, preferably with modern examples that duplicate them. That's rhetorical - you won't be able to do do so.
My post was more about your declaration that it would have been improbable for ancient people to do great things out of superstition. A point you quite nicely ignored.

But more importantly. You haven't made a convincing argument, yet, that these holes are indeed as old as you suggest they are.

As such, I don't need to anything. I'm satisfied with the explanation offered in the links of post 173 by DevilsAdvocate. At least for plausability.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:11 AM   #180
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I just want to know why those stupid aliens didn't given them at least steel tools to make those cool pyramids.
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Old 16th August 2019, 07:52 AM   #181
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I think for ordinary round holes in stones a bow drill and two workers could do it. Metal anything optional. Desert climates tend to make trees and bushes tough hard wood. Even if not in the local scrub a tradesman could get it imported from not too far away. Keeping supply plentiful and cheap to use wood dowels and a bow drill. Abrasives picked up off the floor were plentiful too.
I live in the land of post and block houses. A builder needs a bucket, trowel, hammer and strings. The most high tech is a level and measuring tape. A helper needs a shovel and bucket. Ladders are made on site with wood for forms and scaffolding is outright scary.

Other than bringing form wood and raw materials the builder can use a bike. He doesn't need a truck.


Ancient builders most likely worked under similar conditions. Only bring what cannot be found or improvised on site. Aztec builders made cement on site. Scrub wood to turn limestone into cal and sand /gravel found on site or broken from local rocks. It managed to last more than 500 years where not exposed directly to the elements. Better formulas made the pyramid of the sun just outside Mex City.
They had baskets, sticks and rocks to build a huge structure.

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Old 16th August 2019, 08:15 AM   #182
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You know, it always struck me that the aliens come across as outright ass holes in these retarded scenarios.

I mean, imagine you were stranded on a primitive planet, where disease is unchecked and you can die slowly and horribly from just stepping on a thorn, famines are periodically recurring events (as demonstrated by bone density studies), infant mortality is through the roof, life expectancy is about 30 years if you made it past that, and about 1 in 3 males will die murdered in the endemic warfare that is a constant in those tribal societies. You know, about the conditions in which neolithic humans lived.

And you have a ship with you and presumably a huge database of science and whatnot.

Now what could you teach them? Why, of course, just how to make useless funny holes in rocks and how to stack rocks on top of each other, just so woowoo cretins 10000 years later would have something to confabulate about. Oh, and also don't forget to teach them a religion with you as a god, and which requires horrible human sacrifices

I already wrote a long list in other treads of what _I_ could teach those guys if I were stranded there and not a complete ass hole. You know, stuff like ceramic water filters so they don't die of dysentery, agriculture and stuff like that.

Let me add even more new stuff:

- a flippin' Stirling engine. It's simple, doesn't explode and kill people like a proper steam engine, and it works for any kind of difference of temperature between the hot plate and the cold plate. Especially for places like Egypt, you can even just dye the top plate black, and stick the bottom plate on a copper rod stuck in the Nile, and you have infinite solar energy.

- a water pump. It may seem elementary, but it wasn't invented until Archimedes. And why that's important is irrigation. A lot of places weren't suited for agriculture just because you couldn't get the water uphill from the river except by having lots of guys with buckets carrying it uphill. But stick a spiral in a tube and have the above mentioned Stirling motor driving it, and you can feed millions.

- a paddleboat. Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky? Yep, combine such a solar powered engine (or you can just light a fire on the top plate if you want more power) with a boat and two wheels with paddles, and you've kickstarted the mother of all trade networks.

- pulleys. Again, they appear very late in human history. Just think of how it would have simplified construction and a lot of other things.

Etc.

But no, let's just teach them to stack rocks and sacrifice women to me, by skinning them alive. THAT is what those primitive screwheads need
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Old 16th August 2019, 09:30 PM   #183
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Has he provided a response for how the demonstrably ancient holes have clear signs of erosion while the star holes, which as mentioned seems to be from more recent blasting, do not show tmsimilar erosion?
Or is that another ignored point?
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:20 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
Has he provided a response for how the demonstrably ancient holes have clear signs of erosion while the star holes, which as mentioned seems to be from more recent blasting, do not show tmsimilar erosion?
Or is that another ignored point?
No.
But obviously holes, made with alien technology, would never erode in the same way as mere ordinary holes. Thatís the proof that they are alien technology holes, you know.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:30 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
My post was more about your declaration that it would have been improbable for ancient people to do great things out of superstition. A point you quite nicely ignored.
Superstition nothing. You get a bunch of us guys arguing about who's got the biggest balls, and whole fields worth of giant stone balls is just what you'd expect
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:07 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Superstition nothing. You get a bunch of us guys arguing about who's got the biggest balls, and whole fields worth of giant stone balls is just what you'd expect
Thatís actually unassailable logic. :-)
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:54 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
We can all see how your example is being built, hence no 'mystery', but if you have explanations for how those boreholes and the 'things' were made, then please present them, preferably with modern examples that duplicate them. That's rhetorical - you won't be able to do do so.
Why on earth do you need modern examples that duplicate ancient technology?
We have stuff that works better than most of it.
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Old 19th August 2019, 05:37 AM   #188
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You know, seeing this thread made me realize most of my handy links on ancient Egyptian and other cultures stone working techniques are defunct and Google is pretty useless.
Anyone recommend a few?
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Old 19th August 2019, 05:57 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
infant mortality is through the roof, life expectancy is about 30 years if you made it past that
Slight correction: life expectancy was 35-40 including a freaking 50% child mortality rate. If you got into adulthood it was much higher.

Especially if you were in the higher classes. Hell, my boy Ramses II lived to be 91.
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Old 19th August 2019, 11:01 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Slight correction: life expectancy was 35-40 including a freaking 50% child mortality rate. If you got into adulthood it was much higher.

Especially if you were in the higher classes. Hell, my boy Ramses II lived to be 91.
Well, in Old Kingdom Egypt the second peak of the curve was at about 35 for males and 25 for females (childbirth was a real killer), hence my taking an average of 30. And yeah, that's not even life expectancy at birth, it's life expectancy if you survived the infant mortality spike. AT BIRTH it would be a much lower figure.

It rose by about 10 years for both by New Kingdom times, but by then they weren't building the great monuments and stuff that ancient alien woowoo peddlers get excited about.

Edit: and yes, the pharaoh and nobles tended to live longer, but the rest of the gang rarely made it to 91. Hell, even for the pharaohs, when Pepi II Neferkare lived long enough to reign for at least 62 years and possibly as long as 94, he ended up outliving not only his sons, but also his grandsons, starting the crisis that would end up in the 1st Intermediate Period. Which should tell you that even the life expectancy of a royal prince wasn't huge.
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Old 19th August 2019, 11:13 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, in Old Kingdom Egypt the second peak of the curve was at about 35 for males and 25 for females (childbirth was a real killer), hence my taking an average of 30. And yeah, that's not even life expectancy at birth, it's life expectancy if you survived the infant mortality spike. AT BIRTH it would be a much lower figure.
Do you have a source for that? That contradicts my understanding of human historical life expectancy.
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Old 19th August 2019, 12:04 PM   #192
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By all means: https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/researchers-...ancient-egypt/

Well, it looks like either the data has shifted the numbers a bit since like two decades ago, or my memory ain't infallible after all. Probably the latter, if I'm to be honest. Still, it looks like I wasn't off by much, and it still makes the point I was going for.

That said, there's something that confuses people about life expectancy in ancient Egypt. When you read the obituaries, so to speak, you find a lot of people said to have lived to 110 years old. That sounds like, yea, as the tail of the curve, it kinda fits what you'd expect nowadays. They must have had a similar life expectancy as we do, right?

Except then you read his date of birth and the date they buried him -- because Egyptians recorded that kinda thing -- and it's only, say, 35 years in between. So if they buried him at 35 and he lived to 110, he must have been bored stiff for his last 75 years

And the answer is: numerology. 110 years was the perfect number for a human to live, so saying that someone lived to 110 was just basically saying, yeah, he lived a full life, he was liked by the community, you get the idea. It's just metaphoric language.

So yeah, always look at the dates, ignore any ages mentioned in texts.
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Old 19th August 2019, 12:17 PM   #193
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Oh, and by the way, it's POSSIBLE that they made Pepi II Neferkare reign 94 years -- even though he disappears from the records after his 62nd ruling year -- to make him live 110 years. You know, as the last great king from the good old days, before it all degenerated into a bloody civil war.

Or not. There's no way to be sure. Maybe the guy was just senile and useless but not DEAD after his 62'nd year in power, so they just didn't have any great deeds to commemorate in writing about him, but was still technically the ruler until he died 32 years later. Would explain why the nomarchs (city rulers) had so much unchecked power by the end of it.

So, you know, fun times either way
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:05 PM   #194
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So 110 was basically the Egyptian equivalent of three-score years and ten?
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:38 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
- a flippin' Stirling engine. It's simple, doesn't explode and kill people like a proper steam engine, and it works for any kind of difference of temperature between the hot plate and the cold plate. Especially for places like Egypt, you can even just dye the top plate black, and stick the bottom plate on a copper rod stuck in the Nile, and you have infinite solar energy.
OT - I think your post was partly tongue-in-cheek, but I'm struggling to think of a Stirling design that can do useful work yet does not require well developed machine tools or material science. Might want to teach them how to make smelters, lathes, drills, and tool steel first (or high-speed steel & carbide if you're really ambitious.)
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Old Yesterday, 12:06 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
So 110 was basically the Egyptian equivalent of three-score years and ten?
Well, more like the song "Summer of 69" was not, according to the author, about the year. The number 69 also means something entirely different than a number

It was kinda like that with 110 for Egyptians.
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Old Yesterday, 12:19 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
OT - I think your post was partly tongue-in-cheek, but I'm struggling to think of a Stirling design that can do useful work yet does not require well developed machine tools or material science. Might want to teach them how to make smelters, lathes, drills, and tool steel first (or high-speed steel & carbide if you're really ambitious.)
Well, I'll admit that it would be fiddly to get it right. But a lot less so IMHO than what is involved in having an electric drill, including the power plant, power lines, etc, not to mention the metallurgy for that carbide tipped drill, like the pyramidiots want me to believe. So, you know, if we're at the level where there's no limit to how much technology you can give those primitive guys, I still think an engine is easier to get right.
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Old Yesterday, 01:43 AM   #198
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I'm now imagining a neolithic Stirling engine.
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Old Yesterday, 03:07 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
Thanks for the response. I wasn't thinking about whether it was possible that the Egyptians could have used iron when I wondered about whether iron might not have worked as well as copper even though iron is much harder than copper.
Sure but they had bronze as well that is as good as iron if often more expensive, and laping techniques often use soft metals to imbed the abrasive to work on harder metals, copper laps are still common for use on steel for example.
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Old Yesterday, 03:26 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'm now imagining a neolithic Stirling engine.
Well, think the alpha type, as probably the easiest one. Although a type beta isn't all that much more complicated, and probably fits even better for working as basically just a vertical tube with the top dyed black to absorb sunlight and the bottom part in the Nile for cooling.

Now think of just using copper for all of it. Since elemental copper has been available for about 10,000 years now.

Now... make a tube that will serve as the mould for the whole thing. Could even be wooden. You may have to teach them how to make a lathe to get it perfectly uniform diameter, but it can be turned by foot, so you don't need engines or anything at this stage.

Now you make the cylinders of the engine by wrapping the sheet copper around that one.

For the pistons basically you go back to the lathe again and make another cylinder the same diameter. Then basically cut slices out of it. This will exactly fit the inner diameter of the cylinders.

There we go, really. No advanced tools or materials needed.

And in the process we also taught them how to make and use a lathe, which will serve them well.
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