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Old 16th August 2019, 09:33 PM   #121
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Art is any creative (in the non-qualitative sense) work, or part of a work, that was not made strictly to fulfill a utilitarian function.
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:07 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I'm skeptical about whether modern abstract art is art. Very skeptical about that.
Picasso has not produced art?
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Old 17th August 2019, 12:18 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Picasso has not produced art?
You cannot judge Picasso by his later works.
Picasso could paint like the old masters when he was a boy. There are a number of his early conventional works, but they are rarely seen. He soon went his own way, and spent his life experimenting with new ideas.
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Old 17th August 2019, 02:35 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You cannot judge Picasso by his later works.
Picasso could paint like the old masters when he was a boy. There are a number of his early conventional works, but they are rarely seen. He soon went his own way, and spent his life experimenting with new ideas.
And? Is his later, or post blue period work for example, art?
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Old 17th August 2019, 03:30 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Art is any creative (in the non-qualitative sense) work, or part of a work, that was not made strictly to fulfill a utilitarian function.
I guess this is the difference between "arts" and "crafts". Crafted work usually has a function. Odd that it is considered a lower form than art. Some crafts are definetly art, but it usually gets about as much respect as a knitted pot holder.
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Old 17th August 2019, 06:27 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And? Is his later, or post blue period work for example, art?
I would think so, in much of his later work he produced finished paintings in a few hours. He said he regarded them his diary, and he continuously experimented . I think he did not feel the need to produce polished academy style works at that stage in his development as an artist. He had done all that in his teens.
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Old 17th August 2019, 08:39 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I guess this is the difference between "arts" and "crafts". Crafted work usually has a function. Odd that it is considered a lower form than art. Some crafts are definetly art, but it usually gets about as much respect as a knitted pot holder.
I tend to agree and I think it's a shame.

If you ask me, much of what are commonly called "crafts" today certainly fall under the umbrella of art. It seems to me that although many of these objects may technically have a "function", they are often not actually used for that function at all - and even when they are, the function they serve is almost secondary to the primary importance of decoration - or of even simply being a handmade object. A birdhouse for instance obviously "serves a function" of providing shelter to birds; but typically people don't build a birdhouse because they want or need to provide shelter for birds, they build it because they want to build a birdhouse; the joy they derive from the process of constructing it and admiring or hearing others admire the completed object is equally or sometimes even more important than the joy they derive from seeing it used as intended. I have no problem calling such a thing art.

I think the fact that stores and magazines refer to "arts and crafts" as if these were two different things probably just confuses the issue. If you walk into an arts and crafts store and take a look at what defines and separates the "arts" section, you'll find that they're always using the generic term "arts" to refer specifically to "fine arts", like drawing and painting, and perhaps sculpting.
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Old 18th August 2019, 12:14 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
"The purchase of Voice of Fire by the National Gallery of Canada for its permanent collection in 1989 at a cost of $1.8 million caused a storm of controversy."

Gee - I wonder why?

"A further controversy ensued in 1992 when it was discovered that the painting had been displayed upside-down following its acquisition."

As a Canadian - I wish I was making this up...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_...g_Free_Press-9
I laughed so hard I was crying. I think the fact that the artist had the stones to claim it was hanging upside down might have been the real art in the piece.
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Old 18th August 2019, 04:45 AM   #129
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It's not interesting to look at at all, but it looks darker at the bottom than the top* goolging it.
Since the artist made it and it's an abstract piece, he would obviously know the right way up.




*It's not!
Thanks DevilsAdvocate.
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Old 18th August 2019, 05:02 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
"The purchase of Voice of Fire by the National Gallery of Canada for its permanent collection in 1989 at a cost of $1.8 million caused a storm of controversy."

Gee - I wonder why?

"A further controversy ensued in 1992 when it was discovered that the painting had been displayed upside-down following its acquisition."

As a Canadian - I wish I was making this up...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_...g_Free_Press-9
This thread is a call for skepticism. Let’s be skeptical.

I mentioned previously in discovering some modern art paintings being hung sideways or upside down. I take some interest in the way modern art paintings are created; subtle things many people do not notice.

Barnett Newman’s “Voice of Fire” is symmetrical vertically and horizontally. Hanging it upside down doesn’t change the art at all.

What I am really curious about is how they discovered it was hung upside down. And why that wasn’t discovered when it was originally hung. When they originally hung it, they would surely have been confronted with the problem of which way to hang it. Did they ignore some obvious sign such as a signature on the back? Or did they later discover some subtle clue?

So, I went looking. I didn’t find much. It seems all references originated back to the Wikipedia entry.

The Wikipedia entry first mentions the painting being hung upside-down with an edit on 04:34, 24 February 2015‎. This was during a flurry of edits to the entry that week. The Wikipedia entry sites the source as an article by Ernest Mitchell titled “Controversial painting has Winnipeg connection” from the August 18, 1992, edition of the Winnipeg Free Press. I followed the link. I searched the preview images. I could not find anything. I searched the OCR text. I could not find anything. I accessed the full newspaper. I could not find anything. I searched the whole Winnipeg, Manitoba newspaper archives. I could not find anything. I can’t find anything by Ernest Mitchell at the Winnipeg Free Press. I can’t find an article titled “Controversial painting has Winnipeg connection” anywhere.

If a painting were hung upside-down, especially such a controversial painting, I would expect some discussion in the art journals. I could not find anything. The Wikipedia entry includes reference to several later articles. Those include a 2010 article that covers the history and controversy of the painting. None of the articles mention it being hung upside-down.

The Wikipedia entry includes a reference to a book published in 1996 titled “Voices of Fire: Art Rage, Power, and the State”. The book is a collection of articles by art critics about Newman or using the painting as a jumping-off point. I searched that book on Google books. I could not find anything about the painting being hung upside down. A whole book specifically based on this specific painting, with no mention of this incident.

Curiously, there is one article in that book that references a cartoon published by Roy Peterson in the March 28, 1990, edition of the Vancouver Sun that specifically makes a joke about “Voice of Fire” being hung upside down. That would mean that a cartoonist made a joke about it being hung upside-down about two years before it was discovered that it actually was hung upside-down. And even more curiously, this art critic writing specifically about the painting and making a reference to that cartoon four years after the alleged incident made no mention what-so-ever about it actually being hung upside-down.

I find it very odd that I cannot find any references to the painting being hung upside-down prior to the Wikipedia edit in 2015 and that the Wikipedia reference seems to not exist. At least I can’t find it.

If anyone can find the article or any other information about the painting being hung upside-down, I would very much appreciate it.
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Old 18th August 2019, 05:07 AM   #131
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Oh, at a company I used to work for, a long time ago, there was a rusty sheet-metal rectangular box in the courtyard. Not even a cube, just more like one of those monolyths from 2001. I thought it may house some kind of utility box or something. Turned out it was a work of art that the owner had bought. I never would have guessed, the philistine that I am

He was also the proud owner of such fine pieces of art as a set of folded and straightened back A4 sheets of paper. Not even origami kinda folding. Just fold it along horizontal and vertical lines, press, unfold, frame and you're done.

And something made of coloured shapes on a square grid that looked uncannily like what you get when you lose a game of Tetris. I mean, even the same aspect ratio as a typical Tetris game.

Needless to say, my going, "this row should have been removed" in front of his equally art-inclined friends didn't really make me popular

I dunno, I guess my 3d modelling hobby may have warped my appreciation of that kind of thing. I tend to appreciate the skill behind something, and something any child could do in less than a minute, like those folded sheets of paper, is not ranking very high on that metric.
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Old 18th August 2019, 05:50 AM   #132
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We have a number of metal sculptures here in St. Louis by Richard Serra... Most of these consist of large sheets of unfinished steel.... Some formed in various ways, but some just mounted. They are allowed to rust and weather as they will.
One of these was installed downtown for years, a group of these big steel sheet arranged in a circle.
Pranksters used to annually make alterations... One year they rather cleverly painted them to look like huge dominos.
Most thought the prank was better-looking than the original piece....
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:05 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
LOOOL.

"Prey" like it's somehow a bad thing to do this.

You know why airline travel is such a crappy experience? Because it turns out that pretty much everyone would rather pay as little as possible for the convenience of teleporting across the country in hours where it used to take weeks or months, and pretty much nobody is interested in paying extra for amenities.
Airlines have always tried to squeeze in as many passengers as possible and for the most part they couldn’t provide enough seats. That is why it is crappy. In recent years, LCCs have just made it easier for people who could never have afforded to travel to do so or to do so more frequently. In short, it has always been a sellers’ market.
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:10 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I'm skeptical about whether modern abstract art is art. Very skeptical about that.
And I am skeptical that Renaissance Art is art. How would you convince me that it is?
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:20 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
And I am skeptical that Renaissance Art is art. How would you convince me that it is?
Ceci nest pas un argument.
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:32 AM   #136
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Art that represents something is generally more appreciated. A Greek statue or a landscape painting for example. More minds can appreciate it.

Going from the genius of Picasso to colors and lines on canvas by many artists we the philistines can like it or not, whether we have a clue what inspires the artist or not.
Fact remains Leo's Last Supper will always get good public review where Andy Warhol is hit and miss.

I am decorating my shop with tattered canvas banners for rasslin events. Some paper ones when I can save them. Pro level tv rasslin to local stuff in neighborhood gyms.
And I can't even watch that garbage, it's too silly and predictable.

Commercial art, comic in a way and dated. The actors will fade away one day leaving a old banner in some lunatics shop, and someone will be enough of a fan to save them before my wife tosses them away. But then they will be classics, decades old and the odd characters either long famous or forgotten.

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Old 18th August 2019, 07:36 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Airlines have always tried to squeeze in as many passengers as possible and for the most part they couldn’t provide enough seats. That is why it is crappy. In recent years, LCCs have just made it easier for people who could never have afforded to travel to do so or to do so more frequently. In short, it has always been a sellers’ market.
I don't think it's crappy, though. In the sense that people prize convenience and cheapness over comfort and costliness. If airlines could make more money by filling the plane with first class seats, they would. And there is a market for that kind of thing: First class, chartered flights, private jets.

But it turns out that the vast majority of people who want the convenience of rapid long distance travel don't want to pay a premium for extra leg room or a tastier meal. And it's not in the airlines best interest to fill their capacity with anything less than the maximum possible number of paying customers.
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Old 18th August 2019, 07:39 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Ceci nest pas un argument.
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Old 18th August 2019, 08:28 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think it's crappy, though. In the sense that people prize convenience and cheapness over comfort and costliness. If airlines could make more money by filling the plane with first class seats, they would. And there is a market for that kind of thing: First class, chartered flights, private jets.

But it turns out that the vast majority of people who want the convenience of rapid long distance travel don't want to pay a premium for extra leg room or a tastier meal. And it's not in the airlines best interest to fill their capacity with anything less than the maximum possible number of paying customers.
But that's all the free market fetishism "vote with your dollars" kind of logic. To a certain extent, consumers make a choice, but the choice and power is so limited and so distorted that to equate it with what consumers really "want" in the commonsense meaning of the concept just isn't accurate.

Flash back to the early 20th century, and consumers didn't really "want" polluted rivers, child labor and no social safety net.

Most government regulations on business come about because consumers don't really "want" what voting with dollars gets us in a lot of cases. That's clear because when we vote with actual votes, we often pick things that conflict with what those dollar votes supposedly ask for.

Among the many ways that purchasing decisions aren't a pure preference indicator, there's a false dichotomy here between being happy with zero leg room and being willing to fork over first class prices.
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Old 18th August 2019, 08:58 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
But that's all the free market fetishism "vote with your dollars" kind of logic. To a certain extent, consumers make a choice, but the choice and power is so limited and so distorted that to equate it with what consumers really "want" in the commonsense meaning of the concept just isn't accurate.

Flash back to the early 20th century, and consumers didn't really "want" polluted rivers, child labor and no social safety net.

Most government regulations on business come about because consumers don't really "want" what voting with dollars gets us in a lot of cases. That's clear because when we vote with actual votes, we often pick things that conflict with what those dollar votes supposedly ask for.

Among the many ways that purchasing decisions aren't a pure preference indicator, there's a false dichotomy here between being happy with zero leg room and being willing to fork over first class prices.
I'm not sure I follow your argument here. It's not like most people want to pay hundreds of dollars extra for first class seats, but the airlines stubbornly refuse to tap that market.
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Old 18th August 2019, 09:05 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure I follow your argument here. It's not like most people want to pay hundreds of dollars extra for first class seats, but the airlines stubbornly refuse to tap that market.
I think if you'd like to get deeper into this, you should probably start a new thread. It's fairly removed from the original topic.
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:15 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Art that represents something is generally more appreciated. A Greek statue or a landscape painting for example. More minds can appreciate it.

Going from the genius of Picasso to colors and lines on canvas by many artists we the philistines can like it or not, whether we have a clue what inspires the artist or not.
Fact remains Leo's Last Supper will always get good public review where Andy Warhol is hit and miss.

I am decorating my shop with tattered canvas banners for rasslin events. Some paper ones when I can save them. Pro level tv rasslin to local stuff in neighborhood gyms.
And I can't even watch that garbage, it's too silly and predictable.

Commercial art, comic in a way and dated. The actors will fade away one day leaving a old banner in some lunatics shop, and someone will be enough of a fan to save them before my wife tosses them away. But then they will be classics, decades old and the odd characters either long famous or forgotten.

Good to see someone is staying on topic here.

Yes I agree that Andy Warhol's last supper is somewhat hit and miss. That may be too kind however and maybe we could just leave the hit out.
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Old 19th August 2019, 06:37 PM   #143
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Andy did a last supper? That should be a new concept in the theme.

I can't say much for the most of his work. But I would love to be the one cashing the check from the Sotheby auction.
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Old 19th August 2019, 06:40 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Andy did a last supper? That should be a new concept in the theme.

I can't say much for the most of his work. But I would love to be the one cashing the check from the Sotheby auction.
Apparently it was a series of works.

And I like Warhol because he did new stuff, and he made it look industrial, but he did it by hand.

I do not share Thor 2's skepticism of art. Quite the contrary: I'm deeply skeptical of his understanding of art.
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Old Yesterday, 02:02 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Apparently it was a series of works.

And I like Warhol because he did new stuff, and he made it look industrial, but he did it by hand.

I do not share Thor 2's skepticism of art. Quite the contrary: I'm deeply skeptical of his understanding of art.

Oh no argument. I've already admitted to being a Philistine.

You?

It's amusing I think, that there are those who consider themselves, and some others may endorse the perception, that they are experts in the appreciation of art, when there is no way this expertise can be measured.
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Old Yesterday, 06:48 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh no argument. I've already admitted to being a Philistine.

You?

It's amusing I think, that there are those who consider themselves, and some others may endorse the perception, that they are experts in the appreciation of art, when there is no way this expertise can be measured.
You know that you can get a degree in art, right? Doesn't that indicate some form of expertise?
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Old Yesterday, 07:38 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You know that you can get a degree in art, right? Doesn't that indicate some form of expertise?
The people that teach it seem to think so.
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Old Yesterday, 07:40 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The people that teach it seem to think so.
The person with the engineering degree asks "how does it work?"
The person with the science degree asks "why does it work?"
The person with the arts degree asks "would you like fries with that?"

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Old Today, 08:33 AM   #149
Cavemonster
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In just about any area, having more background knowledge and experience can facilitate a deeper understanding and appreciation. Why should art be an exception?

If you want to really appreciate a Red Sox vs Yankees game, a basic understanding of the rules of baseball helps. A historical understanding of the relationship between the two teams helps more. Familiarity with the players adds another layer. Following the particularities of the season goes deeper. Having personal experience with baseball and what's involved with the decisions and the athletic effort adds still more.

Someone who knows none of that could easily be incredibly bored at a game that someone who knows all of that would find enjoyable.

I can't say there's no ******** in the world of art and art appreciation. That can and should be approached skeptically. But this idea that art appreciation can't depend on knowing things would require art to be uniquely shallow in a way that our other interests are not.
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Old Today, 09:28 AM   #150
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
In just about any area, having more background knowledge and experience can facilitate a deeper understanding and appreciation. Why should art be an exception?

If you want to really appreciate a Red Sox vs Yankees game, a basic understanding of the rules of baseball helps.
I think a key difference is that with baseball (or with various types of science), there are definitive outcomes. A home run is a home run, a win is a win, etc. In science you can do measurements and point to concrete results.

With art, its completely subjective. There are no measurements that say "this piece of dog-poop on a dinner plate is more artistic than this piece of gum stuck to a canvas". It is completely subjective. (Yes you can delve into history... where painters learned their art, trends in styles, etc.) but that's not really relevant in judging the quality of an individual piece.

The subjective nature of art means that its possible for a certain amount of 'group think' to take hold. That's why art is treated differently than sports, or science.
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Old Today, 11:25 AM   #151
xjx388
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Everyone keeps saying the one thing that effectively ends this thread: Art is subjective. There is no one definition that satisfies everyone. You don't consider Pollack art? Fine, whatever. What does that have to do with my appreciation of Pollack's work? Your considerations do not nullify mine.

Arguing about art is just another way to put each other down; effectively, when you say something that another person appreciates is not art, what you are really saying is, "You are stupid."
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Old Today, 02:56 PM   #152
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think a key difference is that with baseball (or with various types of science), there are definitive outcomes. A home run is a home run, a win is a win, etc. In science you can do measurements and point to concrete results.

With art, its completely subjective. There are no measurements that say "this piece of dog-poop on a dinner plate is more artistic than this piece of gum stuck to a canvas". It is completely subjective. (Yes you can delve into history... where painters learned their art, trends in styles, etc.) but that's not really relevant in judging the quality of an individual piece.

The subjective nature of art means that its possible for a certain amount of 'group think' to take hold. That's why art is treated differently than sports, or science.
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