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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Ahmed Jibril , Kenny MacAskill , Lockerbie bombing , Marwan Khreesat , Pan Am 103

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Old 5th March 2012, 04:17 PM   #761
Rolfe
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Actually, that's a good point. I have a silk hearthrug I bought in Egypt which folds into a ridiculously small parcel and weighs about a kilo. (It cost a fair bit more than $100 though!) I just thought it was odd he mentioned taking the carpets into the hotel because he was concerned about them being stolen from the car, and then they completely vanish from the narrative.

I don't think it's anything sinister, I was just curious where they went, in an editorial sort of way.

Rolfe.
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Old 5th March 2012, 08:57 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh for goodness sake. The radio announced this morning that Megrahi was having an affair and went to see the woman on both 7th and 20th December 1988. Colour me seriously unsurprised. They didn't happen to mention if the woman is your Facebook friend.
Nope she is not my facebook friend. Is she yours? Or perhaps even more plausilbe Professor Black's? Oh, forgive me. I forgot. He pitches for the other team.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Bunntamas, your hatred of Megrahi is understandable, but it does you no credit. You seem to be at the stage where evidence that Megrahi was spending his time on Malta secretly working as a volunteer in a hostel for homeless orphans would be twisted by you to imply that he's a murderer.
Rolfe.
LOL! Homeless Orphans?!!! ROLFL!!!! WHERE did you get THAT?!!! Now you're just making stuff up. I thought more of you. Okay. I didn't. Just thought I would say that to be cordial. Still laughing though.


Try this on for size:

Quote:


Quote:
5 March 2012 Last updated at 01:17 ET
"As a Libyan Arab Airlines employee and as someone well known, both at Tripoli airport and at the airport in Malta," he told the lawyers, "I could get away with not using a passport or an identification card at all, but simply by wearing my Libyan Arab Airlines uniform.
"This may sound ridiculous but it is true.
"If I wanted to do something clandestine in such a way that there would be absolutely no record at all of me going from Tripoli to Malta and back again, I could do it."

So, hand wave again. I'm just adding more info. (Isn't that what you pine for, yet handwave anyone who disagrees with you and the propaganda you, blood money authors and the JREF terrorist lovers propound?)

Megrahi is no saint (understatement). And it does you no credit either to continue to blather on in your screeds, for years on end about a proven liar, scumb bag, who was shagging his employees (at the disgrace of his family), and using his status as an airline employee / under cover agent to the former Libyan Regime to enable the planting of a bomb via his VIP status, which allowed him to pass through Malta airport security undocumented, and undetected, and conducting mass murder. All the while sucking people like you in, and portending to be a "simple man", on his "deathbead" (for years now), hanging on the heartstrings of those whom now are too simple to recognize a scum bag, murderer, when he drives by in his red Ferrari, courtesy of his murdering Libyan government employers, waving and and laughing at all the suckahs....

~B.

Last edited by Bunntamas; 5th March 2012 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 6th March 2012, 01:07 AM   #763
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And yet strangely you have consistently proven unable to highlight any factual errors in Rolfe's posts regarding the handling of the case and the evidence against Megrahi.
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Old 6th March 2012, 02:54 AM   #764
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Yeah, it's so obvious. He chose to use his own authentic passport when he 'bought' the clothes from Marys House on the 7th, and then switched to his false one, Abdusamad, to 'load' the bomb onto KM180 on the 21st. This piece of duplicious stealth is consolidated by his clever method of introducing his 'bomb' onto an Air Malta flight in such a manner that no one has ever been able to illustrate or show even a shred of evidence for.

What a genius.

All Air Malta employess and Luqa Airport staff then, for the next two decades, continue to and uphold lies in order to asist and cover for the mass murderer Megrahi/Abdusamad. Meanwhile, it seems he could have carried out all his surreptitious activities, on the 7th and the 21st, without using any passport at all, real or false, and without leaving any paperwork or trace of his visits to Malta whatsoever.

What a dummy.
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Old 6th March 2012, 03:17 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Nope she is not my facebook friend. Is she yours? Or perhaps even more plausilbe Professor Black's? Oh, forgive me. I forgot. He pitches for the other team.

You are the only person who seems to be aware of this woman's existence. I never look at Facebook.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
LOL! Homeless Orphans?!!! ROLFL!!!! WHERE did you get THAT?!!! Now you're just making stuff up. I thought more of you. Okay. I didn't. Just thought I would say that to be cordial. Still laughing though.

Well, yes, I did make it up, I thought that was obvious. Hypothetical, and all that.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Try this on for size:

Why don't you try this on for size?

Revealed: Lockerbie bomber on why he used fake passport and life as a secret agent
by Marcello Mega, 18th January 2009

Quote:
"In order to travel from Tripoli to Malta I do not need to use a passport at all and can simply use an identification card issued by the Immigration Department in Libya.

"All Libyans could do this, although it applied only for trips to and from Malta.

"Secondly, as an Libyan Arab Airlines employee and as someone well known in Tripoli and at the airport in Malta, I could get away without using a passport or an identification card but simply by wearing my LAA uniform. This may sound ridiculous but it is true. If I wanted to do something clandestine in such a way, there would be absolutely no record at all of me going from Tripoli to Malta and back again."

And the really amusing part is, do you know who gave me that link? A poster called Bunntamas, funnily enough.

So why all the fuss and shrieking now, as if this was somehow new news? Megrahi's defence team didn't want to make a big deal about it at the trial, because they thought the prosecution would just say, well that means he could have been there on 23rd November. However, as the SCCRC report stated, there is still no evidence that he was there on 23rd November, and this raises the question of why anyone who was engaged on a serious crime would deliberately leave an immigration trail that could be traced to him, on two occasions, when there was no need for him to have left such a trail.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
So, hand wave again. I'm just adding more info. (Isn't that what you pine for, yet handwave anyone who disagrees with you and the propaganda you, blood money authors and the JREF terrorist lovers propound?)

Megrahi is no saint (understatement). And it does you no credit either to continue to blather on in your screeds, for years on end about a proven liar, scumb bag, who was shagging his employees (at the disgrace of his family), and using his status as an airline employee / under cover agent to the former Libyan Regime to enable the planting of a bomb via his VIP status, which allowed him to pass through Malta airport security undocumented, and undetected, and conducting mass murder. All the while sucking people like you in, and portending to be a "simple man", on his "deathbead" (for years now), hanging on the heartstrings of those whom now are too simple to recognize a scum bag, murderer, when he drives by in his red Ferrari, courtesy of his murdering Libyan government employers, waving and and laughing at all the suckahs....

You haven't added any new information at all. Did anyone claim Megrahi was a saint? Does anyone care who he was sleeping with, outside his own family? Does adultery suddenly mean that someone is a terrorist, now?

And you still don't have any evidence at all for the mass murderer, scumbag, or the red Ferrari come to that.

Rolfe.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 6th March 2012 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 6th March 2012, 04:09 AM   #766
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
So, hand wave again. I'm just adding more info. (Isn't that what you pine for, yet handwave anyone who disagrees with you and the propaganda you, blood money authors and the JREF terrorist lovers propound?)
Bunntamas, I've been following this discussion for some time, and the only hand-waving I've seen is from you. Now you seem to be resorting to name-calling and other insulting language; it shouldn't need to be pointed out that that won't convince anyone of anything, other than that you aren't prepared to respond to a reasoned argument.

It isn't "hand-waving" to point out that (allegedly) dodgy behaviour isn't in itself evidence of anything - particularly not a conclusion otherwise supported only by a dodgy investigation. Rolfe is quite right to say that having a false passport and (supposedly) being unfaithful to his wife don't make Megrahi a terrorist; and the fact that someone is arguing in these terms rather highlights that genuine evidence of terrorist activity at the airport in Malta doesn't actually exist.

I am aware that you are one of the people who suffered personal loss from the atrocity; it is one of the sadnesses of the affair that you and others affected have been officially lied to for twenty years, and are unable to face up to this. But think about this for a moment: the real "terrorist lovers" aren't the people who want to talk about the facts of the case - they are the people who are trying to cover them up. The faulty investigation and trial simply meant that the actual terrorists, a thousand miles from Libya, are just laughing at all of us.
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Old 6th March 2012, 04:27 AM   #767
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Today's shock development is buried in this inside-page article in the Herald.

Mistress claim "backs case for Megrahi being innocent"

Originally Posted by Alison Campsie and Lucy Adams
The release of details about Megrahi's private life has prompted a row between the author of his official biography and the BBC. John Ashton claims he shared the SCCRC report with the broadcaster only for the purposes of a documentary and that there was agreement it would not be used thereafter.

Mr Ashton said the SCCRC report notes only that the mistress story was a "possible explanation" offered by Megrahi for his trips to Malta on December 7 and 20, 1988.

Other possible explanations from Megrahi included business dealings in Malta. The SCCRC did not investigate the issue and it did not impact upon its findings.

Mr Ashton said last night: "While there is a strong public interest in making the report's contents public, there is no public interest defence for the BBC in knowingly s******* its primary source, and it should be ashamed that it has done so. I shall be raising this matter with the controller of BBC Scotland."

However, the BBC said it was in the public interest to report on parts of the SCCRC report.

A spokesman for BBC Scotland said: "Network Features, the independent production company who made the documentary for BBC Scotland, were given access to the full SCCRC report into the Megrahi case, parts of which were included in the programme.

"In turn, the company gave the BBC access to the report for both legal and editorial reasons in order to make a fair and accurate programme.

"The BBC feels that there are justifiable public interest reasons to publish selected abstracts from the report."

The programme they are talking about is the one that seemed just to be a re-edit of the longer al-Jazeera documentary, with added anti-SNP jibes.

So, the BBC has the entire SCCRC report. And all it can think to do with it is reveal personal information which Ashton did not include in the biography, presumably at Megrahi's request. Even though this personal information in fact further undermined the verdict against him.

The BBC cites "justifiable public interest reasons" for breaching privacy, but it's unclear what it thinks these are. The report about Megrahi having an affair was only presented in terms of "look what a scumbag he is, cheating on his wife". That is completely irrelevant to the question of his guilt or innnocence.

What is not irrelevant to that question is that this revelation completely undermines paragraph 88 of the judgement against Megrahi, which relied on there allegedly being no "innocent" explanation for his presence on Malta on 20th December 1988. However, the BBC didn't even mention this aspect.

If the BBC now has the report, as well as Ashton and this other broadcasting company, the cat is well and truly out of the bag. What we need now is to quit with the selective leaking with a biassed agenda.

Rolfe.
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Old 6th March 2012, 10:29 AM   #768
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
...Or perhaps even more plausilbe Professor Black's? Oh, forgive me. I forgot. He pitches for the other team...
Isn't Black also an obsessed Megrahi axe-grinder? So, in that case, what do you mean by "other team"?
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Old 6th March 2012, 06:26 PM   #769
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The day before Ashton's book was published, we were warned to prepare for a dramatic revelation. That was of course the metallurgy report, which is complete dynamite. However, although it was reported, it has never really been headlined. It's been a footnote to screeds of irrelevance, frankly, and its significance has not been highlighted.

Was the press always so supine, to protect the official position? Or is this something recent, connected to the David Kelly affair or the Levison Inquiry perhaps?

Rolfe.
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Old 6th March 2012, 09:09 PM   #770
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You haven't added any new information at all.
Rolfe.
Ditto.

I'll leave you all now, to go back to your handwaving, and years upon years of regurgitating screeds of the same "no new evidence", (and grammar school level book reports of the same regurgitated no new, evidence) and ZERO results....

~B.

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Old 6th March 2012, 09:11 PM   #771
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Deleted duplicate reply.

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Old 6th March 2012, 09:12 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by lane99 View Post
Isn't Black also an obsessed Megrahi axe-grinder? So, in that case, what do you mean by "other team"?
I'll leave you to figure that one out for yourself.
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Old 6th March 2012, 09:23 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
And yet strangely you have consistently proven unable to highlight any factual errors in Rolfe's posts regarding the handling of the case and the evidence against Megrahi.
If there were any "facts" in Rolfe's posts, perhaps more time might be spent on them. As it is, said posts are nothing but repeated google and media blather, and handwaving with replies of "oh, I was just kidding" when said blather is called out, and which said blather, anyone can read in the press, or in public documents. They prove nothing, and have resulted in nothing (aka overturned GUILTY verdict).

~B.

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Old 6th March 2012, 11:14 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The day before Ashton's book was published, we were warned to prepare for a dramatic revelation. That was of course the metallurgy report, which is complete dynamite. However, although it was reported, it has never really been headlined. It's been a footnote to screeds of irrelevance, frankly, and its significance has not been highlighted.
Because its a messy story which you have to dump a bunch of background info into in order to get it to make sense. The media simply has other priorities at the moment. The affair thing by comparison is fairly straightforward and gives the BBC an exclusive which is always nice.


Quote:
Was the press always so supine, to protect the official position? Or is this something recent, connected to the David Kelly affair or the Levison Inquiry perhaps?
If anything its probably the reverse the press has become more interested in questioning the official position. The David Kelly thing really only impacted the BBC and has probably worn off. The BBC is at this point far more worried about Radio 1 presenters doing something unfortunate. Levison again not a massive issue in this case. I doubt anyone is actively trying to bribe any of the officials involved and the public interest case is about as solid as they come.
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Old 7th March 2012, 02:59 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Because its a messy story which you have to dump a bunch of background info into in order to get it to make sense. The media simply has other priorities at the moment. The affair thing by comparison is fairly straightforward and gives the BBC an exclusive which is always nice.

However, what we have here is the BBC sidelining the dynamite revelation and hyping up the messy background.

Not so much of an exclusive apparently.

Quote:
It may seem like a revelation but a UK news report that Libyan Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi, convicted for the 1988 Lockerbie bombing, travelled to Malta regularly to have sex was well documented 12 years ago.

The information, including the names of two women alleged to have been Mr al-Megrahiís and co-accused Al Amin Khalifa Fhimahís mistresses, formed part of the Libyan menís defence arsenal but was never used during the Camp Zeist trial.

The link between the two Libyan men and the Maltese women was well-documented in the book Lockerbie: Qabel il-Verdett by investigative journalist Joe Mifsud more than a decade ago.

Originally Posted by geni View Post
If anything its probably the reverse the press has become more interested in questioning the official position. The David Kelly thing really only impacted the BBC and has probably worn off. The BBC is at this point far more worried about Radio 1 presenters doing something unfortunate. Levison again not a massive issue in this case. I doubt anyone is actively trying to bribe any of the officials involved and the public interest case is about as solid as they come.

Well why are they behaving so oddly in this case? This conviction is on its last legs, what with a blatantly peverse verdict, investigator and prosecutor misconduct, withholding of exculpatory evidence from the defence, and bribery of witnesses. But the BBC seem to be doing all they can to shore it up.

And where is the "public interest case" in revealing that Megrahi was having an affair over 20 years ago? Of what possible relevance is this? Well, actually its relevance is that it comlpetely undermines paragraph 88 of the written judgement, where the bench declared that if only they knew of an innocent reason for Megrahi's trips to Malta they would not be entitled to assume he went there for the purpose of planting a bomb. Being as, of course, there was zero evidence that he had done anything of the sort, and the prosecution and the bench were indulging in unsupported guesswork.

However, the BBC did not make this point. The story was presented as nothing more than salacious tittle-tattle.

Rolfe.
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Old 7th March 2012, 03:05 AM   #776
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Ebola wants £33.75 million from the Scottish police and the Crown Office!



Bwahahahaha! Good luck with that!

Rolfe.
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Old 7th March 2012, 02:23 PM   #777
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
However, what we have here is the BBC sidelining the dynamite revelation and hyping up the messy background.
I think the general public can cope with the concept of an affair.

Quote:
They credit UK news reports for the story.

the story is from the 6th. The BBC story was 5 March 2012 06:17

Quote:
Well why are they behaving so oddly in this case? This conviction is on its last legs, what with a blatantly peverse verdict, investigator and prosecutor misconduct, withholding of exculpatory evidence from the defence, and bribery of witnesses. But the BBC seem to be doing all they can to shore it up.

A claim not remotely consistent with reality. I'm sure it would be pretty trivial at this point to find some former libyan intelligence person prepared to say al-Megrahi did it.


Quote:
And where is the "public interest case" in revealing that Megrahi was having an affair over 20 years ago? Of what possible relevance is this? Well, actually its relevance is that it comlpetely undermines paragraph 88 of the written judgement, where the bench declared that if only they knew of an innocent reason for Megrahi's trips to Malta they would not be entitled to assume he went there for the purpose of planting a bomb. Being as, of course, there was zero evidence that he had done anything of the sort, and the prosecution and the bench were indulging in unsupported guesswork.

However, the BBC did not make this point. The story was presented as nothing more than salacious tittle-tattle.
Quote:
The Mediterranean island was key to the case which saw Megrahi convicted, in January 2001, of murdering 270 people in the bombing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17152621

So they cover malta being important. No they don't mention paragraph 88 because their audience doesn't know what that means.
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Old 7th March 2012, 02:40 PM   #778
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
I think the general public can cope with the concept of an affair.

You'd think, wouldn't you. But we have headlines shouting "Lockerbie bomber Megrahi visited Malta for sex". Er, probably, and what has that to do with the price of fish?

Originally Posted by geni View Post
They credit UK news reports for the story.

the story is from the 6th. The BBC story was 5 March 2012 06:17

I even quoted the relevant passage, to save you clicking on the link, but clearly you didn't read it.

Quote:
t may seem like a revelation but a UK news report that Libyan Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi, convicted for the 1988 Lockerbie bombing, travelled to Malta regularly to have sex was well documented 12 years ago. [....]

The link between the two Libyan men and the Maltese women was well-documented in the book Lockerbie: Qabel il-Verdett by investigative journalist Joe Mifsud more than a decade ago.

Originally Posted by geni View Post
A claim not remotely consistent with reality. I'm sure it would be pretty trivial at this point to find some former libyan intelligence person prepared to say al-Megrahi did it.

And you think the UK and US governments haven't been busting a gut to get someone to say exactly that ever since they went into Benghazi last year? There have been a succession of such claims, all given the greatest of credibility by the BBC, but none of them turned out to have any substance. Not that the BBC ever reported that part, except once by accident when Jalil revealed that he didn't have a case during a live Newsnight interview, never repeated or subsequently reported on.

Originally Posted by geni View Post
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17152621

So they cover malta being important. No they don't mention paragraph 88 because their audience doesn't know what that means.

Well, few people would know without looking it up. It's not hard to explain the significance of that part of the ruling though, as I did in a post above.

Quote:
It is possible to infer that this visit under a false name the night before the explosive device was planted at Luqa, followed by his departure for Tripoli the following morning at or about the time the device must have been planted, was a visit connected with the planting of the device. Had there been any innocent explanation for this visit, obviously this inference could not be drawn.

I really don't think it is beyond the journalistic ingenuity of the BBC to explain the significance of that in a way even you could understand. It is in fact the only justification for the BBC's claim that revealing the private details of Megrahi's sex life in the late 1980s has "public interest reasons". They just forgot to mention that bit.

Rolfe.
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Old 7th March 2012, 03:27 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You'd think, wouldn't you. But we have headlines shouting "Lockerbie bomber Megrahi visited Malta for sex". Er, probably, and what has that to do with the price of fish?
Thats the sun. I'm sure their headline writers have their reasons.

Quote:
I even quoted the relevant passage, to save you clicking on the link, but clearly you didn't read it.
The media is certianly acting as if its an exclusive which is unfortunately good enough for them.


[quteo]
And you think the UK and US governments haven't been busting a gut to get someone to say exactly that ever since they went into Benghazi last year? There have been a succession of such claims, all given the greatest of credibility by the BBC, but none of them turned out to have any substance. Not that the BBC ever reported that part, except once by accident when Jalil revealed that he didn't have a case during a live Newsnight interview, never repeated or subsequently reported on.[/quote]

And you will notice that the Mustafa Abdel-Jalil claim come via a swedish news organisation. Odd that if you think the BBC is so interested in pushing the official story.

However once Expressen had run with it the BBC can't exactly flat out ignore the story and since they only have it second hand there is a limited amount of investigating that they could do.

If you are cynical then this is exactly the reason that planting stories in the foreign press has been a standard properganda tactic as far back as WW1.

Quote:
Well, few people would know without looking it up. It's not hard to explain the significance of that part of the ruling though, as I did in a post above.
Well is unclear that it is significant. After all the judges position was that he had flat out denied being there so it would be equaly easy for them to disregard any later explanation.


Quote:
I really don't think it is beyond the journalistic ingenuity of the BBC to explain the significance of that in a way even you could understand.
They can't meaningfuly explain who Gemma McCluskie is and thats currently their most read story.

Quote:
It is in fact the only justification for the BBC's claim that revealing the private details of Megrahi's sex life in the late 1980s has "public interest reasons". They just forgot to mention that bit.
The problem is that it doesn't demolish the line of argument as much as you seem to think. What the BBC has is in fact far more limited. They mealy have a claim of an alternative explanation not something that necessary rises to the level of an alternative explanation that the judges wouldn't disregard.

As a result you have the rather messy set of paragraphs at the end of the article.
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Old 7th March 2012, 04:22 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Thats the sun. I'm sure their headline writers have their reasons.

It may have been the Sun too, I wouldn't know. It was certainly the BBC.

Originally Posted by geni View Post
The media is certianly acting as if its an exclusive which is unfortunately good enough for them.

Indeed, just like the other part, which was published in the Daily Record in January 2009.

Originally Posted by geni View Post
And you will notice that the Mustafa Abdel-Jalil claim come via a swedish news organisation. Odd that if you think the BBC is so interested in pushing the official story.

However once Expressen had run with it the BBC can't exactly flat out ignore the story and since they only have it second hand there is a limited amount of investigating that they could do.

If you are cynical then this is exactly the reason that planting stories in the foreign press has been a standard properganda tactic as far back as WW1.

Wherever the story came from originally, the BBC milked it for all it was worth. It got Jalil on Newsnight, live, and then oops, he revealed his "evidence", which was neither news, nor evidence. Then they just stopped talking about him, or at least long enough to be able to come back and repeat his original allegations without mentioning that he had debunked himself.

Originally Posted by geni View Post
Well is unclear that it is significant. After all the judges position was that he had flat out denied being there so it would be equaly easy for them to disregard any later explanation.

OK, we need to stop this conversation right here, and maybe continue it when you have done a bit of basic reading and acquired the semblance of a clue. The judges' position (whatever that means) was no such thing. Megrahi had said he had made the trip for a business meeting and shopping, and the judges chose to regard that as insufficient justification for the trip. Whether they would have considered adultery to come into that category was not tested in court.

Originally Posted by geni View Post
They can't meaningfuly explain who Gemma McCluskie is and thats currently their most read story.

Who?

Originally Posted by geni View Post
The problem is that it doesn't demolish the line of argument as much as you seem to think. What the BBC has is in fact far more limited. They mealy have a claim of an alternative explanation not something that necessary rises to the level of an alternative explanation that the judges wouldn't disregard.

As a result you have the rather messy set of paragraphs at the end of the article.

Whether the judges would have disregarded the explanation or not, isn't really the point at this stage. They professed incredulity that Megrahi would make another trip to Malta when he had been there quite recently, and stay only one night, for nothing more than shopping. At this stage, the revelation that he was having an affair with a woman on Malta most certainly does appear to undermine that part of the judgement, and that was the entire point of the information being in the documents the BBC have access to.

This should not have been "messy paragraphs at the end of an article", this should have been the entire, central reason for revealing Megrahi's private information. Otherwise it's nothing but salacious tittle-tattle, with no bearing on guilt or innocence, and no justifiable public interest.

Rolfe.
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Old 8th March 2012, 11:24 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
I'll leave you to figure that one out for yourself.
"Other team" might suggest those with competing or opposing viewpoints. But, apart perhaps from Black taking a more dignified approach, they seem to otherwise be singing from the same songbook.

So I remain unsure about what you meant by "other team". Thought there might be some intrigue behind the reference, but maybe not.
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Old 8th March 2012, 03:04 PM   #782
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Quote:
It is possible to infer that this visit under a false name the night before the explosive device was planted at Luqa, followed by his departure for Tripoli the following morning at or about the time the device must have been planted, was a visit connected with the planting of the device. Had there been any innocent explanation for this visit, obviously this inference could not be drawn.

It's probably worth pointing out at this stage that if there was the slightest shred of evidence that Megrahi had so much as stepped on a crack in the pavement that morning, there would have been no place for this paragraph. It wouldn't matter how many business meetings Megrahi had the previous day, or how many carpets he'd bought, or how many women he'd slept with.

But there wasn't. Not a scintilla.

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Old 8th March 2012, 08:00 PM   #783
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's probably worth pointing out at this stage that if there was the slightest shred of evidence that Megrahi had so much as stepped on a crack in the pavement that morning, there would have been no place for this paragraph. It wouldn't matter how many business meetings Megrahi had the previous day, or how many carpets he'd bought, or how many women he'd slept with.

But there wasn't. Not a scintilla.

Rolfe.
Or maybe because he was wearing his "uniform", and given the "VIP treatment", so that he, his aleged carpets, and the bomb bag (and who knows what payoffs, financial or sexual, in exchange for keeping one's mouth shut - and sleeping in to avoid evidence trail -ahem Khalifa) were simply waived on through - before during and after the bombing.

~B.

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Old 9th March 2012, 10:47 AM   #784
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Yeah. Whatever. Maybe the tooth fairy did it. In conspiracy with the Easter bunny.

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Old 9th March 2012, 02:19 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Megrahi had said he had made the trip for a business meeting and shopping, and the judges chose to regard that as insufficient justification for the trip.
That explanation wasn't considered by the judges: they considered only the ABC interview with Salinger:

Quote:
It is possible to infer that this visit under a false name the night before the
explosive device was planted at Luqa, followed by his departure for Tripoli the
following morning at or about the time the device must have been planted, was a visit
connected with the planting of the device. Had there been any innocent explanation
for this visit, obviously this inference could not be drawn. The only explanation that
appeared in the evidence was contained in his interview with Mr Salinger, when he
denied visiting Malta at that time and denied using the name Abdusamad or having
had a passport in that name. Again, we do not accept his denial.
If the true purpose of the visit was an adulterous liaison then it's not surprising that Megrahi was unwilling to testify. And he wouldn't be the first person falsely convicted because he was unwilling to admit to what was really going on.
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Old 9th March 2012, 02:50 PM   #786
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I know they were very critical of Megrahi's lies in the Salinger interview, but Megrahi had long since admitted he had lied to Salinger. At Zeist he freely admitted that he was "Abdusamad" and had travelled to Malta on the 20th using that passport. He even brought that passport to Zeist with him. Megrahi had provided evidence to the Zeist court as regards the carpet purchase, and the estimate for the staircase, and of course Vincent Vassallo was a witness - he had a note in his diary of a meeting with Megrahi in relation to Medtours, at which he had been introduced to Megrahi by his real name. There was no question at Zeist that Megrahi was claiming not to have made that trip to Malta.

That passage you quote is sheer dishonesty. Here's the appeal judgement demonstrating how the trial judges handwaved away the defence explanations, and the appeal court upheld the right of that court to handwave them away if it bloody well felt like it.

Quote:
[362] Ground of appeal D maintains, in regard to para [88], that the trial court erred in “ignoring the explanation advanced for the appellant’s visit to Malta” and “the evidence of the behaviour of the appellant inconsistent with terrorist activity at that time”.

[363] The first observation which we make is that it is plain that the trial court considered what evidence about the appellant’s visit should be accepted, and expressed its view in the course of para [88]. It is not for this court to review what it decided to accept. Secondly, it is clear that there was no evidence before the trial court as to the actual purpose of the appellant’s visit to Malta on 20-21 December 1988. It can be seen from his submissions that Mr Taylor sought to rely on a number of pieces of evidence. However, none of them purported to provide an actual explanation for the visit.

[364] Thus, first, the trial court was reminded that at that time arrangements must have been made for the managing director and an employee of a Maltese company to go to Tripoli to see if that company could build a staircase in the appellant’s house and provide him with a quotation for the purpose. According to that evidence they went to Tripoli on 29 December 1988. Secondly, reference was made to evidence that the appellant was taking an interest in a company Medtours, which was being set up by the co-accused and Mr Vassallo, and that it was hoped that the appellant could use a contact with an oil company to provide Medtours with a business opportunity. Thirdly, the defence founded on evidence that it was not unusual for persons to come to Malta from Libya for a short period of time, for example to do shopping.

[365] The trial court was well entitled to regard none of these pieces of evidence, even if they had been accepted, as providing an alternative explanation. None of them in any event could provide an explanation for the appellant travelling under a false name, let alone doing so on this occasion, and that for the last time.

So basically the judges were saying, OK, in a heavily edited interview with a journalist 10 years ago, the defendant appeared to deny having been on the island. In court he has agreed he lied to the journalist, freely admits he was on the island, and provides the following explanation. We've decided to ignore that last bit and declare that he denied being there and has given no explanation for his actions.

Breathtaking.

Rolfe.
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Old 13th March 2012, 01:39 AM   #787
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Big news day.

Lockerbie revealed: the secret report that damns Scottish justice

And related articles. The Herald has got its mitts on the entire SCCRC report. Not that that report tells the half of it, but even that much is damning.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th March 2012, 01:10 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Big news day.

Lockerbie revealed: the secret report that damns Scottish justice

And related articles. The Herald has got its mitts on the entire SCCRC report. Not that that report tells the half of it, but even that much is damning.

Rolfe.
Three whole pages in one of Scotland most influential broadsheets, all clearly indicating that there are serious doubts about Megrahi's conviction.

I confidently expect the usual posters to handwave this away whilst shouting GUILTY at every opportunity.
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Old 14th March 2012, 04:18 AM   #789
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Well, that's exactly what the Crown Office is doing, so they're in good company.

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Old 14th March 2012, 04:45 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, that's exactly what the Crown Office is doing, so they're in good company.

Rolfe.
How's he doing? I read back far enough to see that apparently he managed with the turmoil in Libya, but have there been any reports on his health lately? Just reading the last few pages it sounds like the (Scottish) press has gotten wind of the story, and there was a release of a book that was very positive as well?

Is there a decent chance he'll live to see his name cleared? Officially at least, I'm sure there's some who'll never accept it...
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Old 14th March 2012, 06:37 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Big news day.

Lockerbie revealed: the secret report that damns Scottish justice

And related articles. The Herald has got its mitts on the entire SCCRC report. Not that that report tells the half of it, but even that much is damning.

Rolfe.

I think the most damning points (of which I was previously unaware) are that Tony Gauci was in possession of a magazine article identifying Megrahi as a suspect for several months before the identity parade (or "lineup", in American parlance), and that he and his brother repeatedly expressed interest in receiving reward money. Those, along with the elements of Tony Gauci's initial story that tend to rule out both Megrahi and December 7 are conclusive, IMO.

One thing I'm not clear on, though, is how the tourism minister's stating that he turned on the Christmas lights on December 6 proves the lights weren't put up on or about December 7. Did I miss something?

As for the book, the best price I see on eBay at the moment is £9.62, + £4.75 to ship to the US, from a bookseller in Leicester. I'll probably still wait to get it, though, as I still probably won't have a chance to read it for a couple of months, and I'm spending my discretionary income for this month, plus the money my mother gave me for my birthday, on Season (Series) 1 of Game of Thrones on Blu-Ray, and Sharpe's Rifles on DVD.
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Old 14th March 2012, 05:40 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by Kaosium View Post
How's he doing? I read back far enough to see that apparently he managed with the turmoil in Libya, but have there been any reports on his health lately? Just reading the last few pages it sounds like the (Scottish) press has gotten wind of the story, and there was a release of a book that was very positive as well?

Is there a decent chance he'll live to see his name cleared? Officially at least, I'm sure there's some who'll never accept it...

I just got back from Glasgow, where I attended John Ashton's interview and discussion at the "Aye Write" book festival. Buncrana was with me. John said Megrahi is pretty sick, but my overall impression is that he's reasonably stable and I don't expect him to pop his clogs imminently.

I don't think he can live to see his name cleared, in that the only person who can mount a new appeal while he is alive is himself, and having been bamboozled and pressurised into dropping the appeal that was ongoing he isn't going to go there. After his death it is open to others to apply to mount a fresh appeal. This may well happen.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th March 2012, 05:47 PM   #793
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I think the most damning points (of which I was previously unaware) are that Tony Gauci was in possession of a magazine article identifying Megrahi as a suspect for several months before the identity parade (or "lineup", in American parlance), and that he and his brother repeatedly expressed interest in receiving reward money. Those, along with the elements of Tony Gauci's initial story that tend to rule out both Megrahi and December 7 are conclusive, IMO.

That he had the picture was known at the time. The prosecution obfuscated how long he'd had it for and how recently he'd seen it, that's all. In fact there were a number of magazine articles with pictures, and apparently Paul was keeping a scrapbook of them for Tony. Just so Tony knew who to identify, so as to get hold of that nice fat reward.

What I hadn't realised was that as well as the picture, the magazine article had published a handy checklist of the discrepancies between Tony's original statements and the Crown case. That he had described someone too tall, too old, too dark-skinned and too heavily built, and that he had mentioned rain that wasn't there, and Christmas lights he said weren't there but were. Every one of these points, Tony subsequently fudged and back-tracked on in the witness box, always to favour the Crown case.

The existence of photographs of the accused identifying him as the accused, in a case where identification evidence was important, and when these photographs were known to have been seen by the witness, should have caused that evidence to be thrown out on the spot. Not at Zeist though.

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
One thing I'm not clear on, though, is how the tourism minister's stating that he turned on the Christmas lights on December 6 proves the lights weren't put up on or about December 7. Did I miss something?

Tony's original unprompted statement said that the Christmas lights were not yet up when he made the sale in question. The lights were actually lit on 6th December.

His backtracking took the form of saying something about "they were putting up the lights, in those days". The workmen finished putting up the lights a couple of days before the switching-on ceremony.

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
As for the book, the best price I see on eBay at the moment is £9.62, + £4.75 to ship to the US, from a bookseller in Leicester. I'll probably still wait to get it, though, as I still probably won't have a chance to read it for a couple of months, and I'm spending my discretionary income for this month, plus the money my mother gave me for my birthday, on Season (Series) 1 of Game of Thrones on Blu-Ray, and Sharpe's Rifles on DVD.

I got the box set of the novels of Game of Thrones for Christmas. I'm on page 46 of the first book, thanks to all this Lockerbie stuff.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th March 2012, 03:29 PM   #794
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Yes, I'm happy to fulfull exepectations as regards FACT.... STILL GUILTY.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/17/world/africa/mauritania-gadhafi-spy-chief/index.html

And more importantly:
Quote:
...he (Senussi) headed Libya's external security organization, in which capacity he was said to have recruited Abdel-Basset al-Megrahi, the man convicted of the 1988 Lockerbie bombing. Like Megrahi, Senussi is a member of the powerful Megarha tribe, based in the Sebha area of the Sahara...
http://www.haguejusticeportal.net/index.php?id=12806

I don't think the tooth fairy is involved here . But if one choses to chase fairy tales and live in adolescent dream land, sans actual evidence, of course that is their choice.

~B.

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Old 17th March 2012, 03:45 PM   #795
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"said to have"

Take note. Someone worded that quite carefully.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
But if one choses to chase fairy tales and live in adolescent dream land, sans actual evidence, of course that is their choice.

You would know about that, I suppose. Unless you've actually found some evidence that the Lockerbie bomb was carried on KM180? I look forward to hearing about it.

Rolfe.
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Old 25th March 2012, 07:33 AM   #796
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Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission report has been published:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...ahi.2012036248
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Old 25th March 2012, 07:49 AM   #797
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Shhhh. People are trying to read....

Rolfe.
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Old 26th March 2012, 02:41 AM   #798
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission report has been published:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...ahi.2012036248
I noticed the headline yesterday and had to buy it. Think it's the first time I've bought the Herald - then I read it and find out it was a link so I could have saved myself the effort and a tree Guess I should have realised that with the length of the report and the paper being normal size duh!
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Old 26th March 2012, 03:09 AM   #799
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It's on John Ashton's web site as well.

Rolfe.
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Old 27th March 2012, 08:33 PM   #800
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Hahahahahahaha! All this time, and all those conspiracy theory screeds, years of conspiracy theories in Scotland, et. al, spent on something about which said conspiracy theorsts have no personal involement, outside of (some) living in the vicinity....or just injecting opinion... only to see the further incriminatation of Megrahi detailed in the ever so awaited SCCRC report. sigh... so sorry for you (not really).

Shhhh! Is SO clearly transparent. HA!!!! Yet, Ironically , and sadly, it's not funny. Blather on, and waste your time. The GUILTY verdict still stands. Megrahi will (hopefully...puuhleeesse already) soon (in spite of the three months to live, now going on...what? THREE ***** YEARS??? - thank you Scotland) will still die a GUILTY person (I considered writing the word "man", but he is nothing of the sort, much less a person). He is nothing but a murdering, terrorist, sleezey philandering scum, monster, who deserves nothing less than the plight that the universe has provided him, by hanging him by his family jewels, which clearly are nothing but dust filled stones in the road; soon to be covered by the fertile ground of the new Libya, and its freedom, from the tyranny and murderous actions of the past regime, which clearly includED Megrahi. Hand wave away conspiracy theorists. Go on about your unproven, ZERO FACTS ADMITTED INTO LEGAL RECORD. Until you can make your way into court, and prove otherwise, I (and many others) will continue to provide nothing but disregard for your years on end of no results argument against the GUILTY VERDICT and REFUSED TWICE appeals. Call me whatever you wish, and moderate me, and use the mods as much as you choose to bend your argument in the direction that is UNPROVEN.

I'll keep laughing at you all and your lame, unproven, sad and disgusting argument(s) that support(s) a disgusting being who was an integral part of a political regime that thought nothing of taking so many, many innocent lives. And spare me the staircase carpenters, pouring rain -wait was it pouring or not? (per R. Black's testimony in front of the parliamentary commitee, it was -with Black's usual drama, pouring! ) and sactions busting.

Unless you are blind, deaf and dumb, about the FACTS, what the Libyan regime has been up to for the past 20+ years, and YET you continue to think that Megrahi had nothing to do with this, then, well, I am relieved in the confirmation of precipice that I thought I might be talking to walls when I joined this forum - in spite of my hopes that things might be different.

Thanks for all the fish.

Ciao
~B.

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