ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , lying charges , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

Reply
Old Today, 07:49 AM   #2121
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,837
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
It's quite bold of you to make such unsupported assertions, when you literally have almost zero evidence ... isn't it ?
No, if you use your brain for critical analysis, it is possible to be confident of your conclusions, even without direct evidence. You should try it sometimes. It's a very rewarding experience.

Quote:
Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein appointed Mueller special counsel in May, and Mueller was given a broad mandate to investigate and prosecute any potential crimes he uncovered.
I'm sorry, is that supposed to be a cite to some authoritative source? Or is that just your own fevered scribbling?

Quote:
LMAO at your description "meandered into a grey area." Is that an accurate characterization of Paul Manafort in your world ?
It may be in his case, or it may not be. My point is that most successful businessmen would wither under such intense scrutiny, including such revered businessmen as Warren Buffett.

Quote:
OF course you think it's unfair, Republicans are being investigated. I'm glad to see you staying on message with the Andrew McCarthy talking points though ... based on his your arguments, you seem to be a big fan.
Well, I have come up with my own arguments, but I'm not sure why you're dismissive of Andrew McCarthy. He is a respected former US district attorney, and knows most of the prosecutors on Mueller's team personally (including Mueller himself).
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:10 AM   #2122
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,797
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Doesn't really matter. Tax and financial crimes are not the kinds of things for which you need early morning, armed raids. Such crimes develop over long periods of time, and the evidence is generally embedded in the banking system in some fashion. It is not the kind of crime where all of the evidence can be flushed down the toilet.
How could you possibly know what is and what isn't appropriate for the FBI? A little presumptuous, isn't that?

How about you let the adults do their job.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:15 AM   #2123
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,837
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
How could you possibly know what is and what isn't appropriate for the FBI? A little presumptuous, isn't that?

How about you let the adults do their job.
Excuse me, but I'm not going to defer to a bunch of law enforcement officers on what is appropriate or not. In fact it would be dangerous to do so. Aside from the fact that I don't trust their education on civil liberties as far as I could throw Bill Clinton's booty call directory, they are hardly unbiased. The less civil liberty for us, the more power for them. And vice versa.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:40 AM   #2124
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,797
But by all means, defer to your ignorance of the situation.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:52 AM   #2125
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 10,331
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
?.. My point is that most successful businessmen would wither under such intense scrutiny, including such revered businessmen as Warren Buffett.
A self-serving supposition which I randomly fished from your relentless, highly unimpressive stream of self-serving suppositions.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 09:47 AM   #2126
TheL8Elvis
Philosopher
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,503
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
No, if you use your brain for critical analysis, it is possible to be confident of your conclusions, even without direct evidence. You should try it sometimes. It's a very rewarding experience.
And that's where any attempt at honest argument comes to a screeching halt.
__________________
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:00 AM   #2127
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 62,471
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Originally Posted by sunmaster14
No, if you use your brain for critical analysis, it is possible to be confident of your conclusions, even without direct evidence. You should try it sometimes.
It's a very rewarding experience.And that's where any attempt at honest argument comes to a screeching halt.


Well there you go, a celebration of confirmation bias.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:02 AM   #2128
Segnosaur
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,301
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Excuse me, but I'm not going to defer to a bunch of law enforcement officers on what is appropriate or not. In fact it would be dangerous to do so.
Yet you seem to be quite vocal in supporting Trump, a guy who pardoned Arpaio who was doing the think you were complaining about... taking actions that Arpaio thought were appropriate but which were seen as incorrect by the courts.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:08 AM   #2129
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 65,993
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
No, if you use your brain for critical analysis, it is possible to be confident of your conclusions, even without direct evidence. You should try it sometimes.
We did but you told us that it doesn't prove anything about Trump's ties with Russia.
__________________
<Roar!>
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:30 AM   #2130
d4m10n
Master Poster
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 2,595
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is all now free speech under citizens united.
Which part of the ruling was that?
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:27 PM   #2131
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,837
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
And that's where any attempt at honest argument comes to a screeching halt.
Hmmm. This is the first time that I can recall you showing any desire for honest argument. I look forward to it if you're still game.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:28 PM   #2132
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,837
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Well there you go, a celebration of confirmation bias.
Do you know what direct evidence is?
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:14 PM   #2133
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,837
This article captures my current thinking.

Quote:
As I wrote back in April, at least six people from the campaign, including Trump himself, were identified in various reports as having been picked up in intercepted communications.

Always, the reports insisted that the Americans were not the targets of the surveillance, that they were “incidentally” picked up while talking to targets.

Those six included Gen. Mike Flynn, Trump’s first national security adviser, then-Senator and now-Attorney General Jeff Sessions and Jared Kushner.

Another was Carter Page, briefly a Trump adviser, and Manafort.

But since then, media reports say that Page was, in fact, being surveilled under a FISA warrant. And now we learn that Manafort was, too.

So those initial reports about the Trumpsters being “incidentally” picked up were wrong. Fake news, you might say, because Manafort and Page were FBI targets whose communications were being intercepted — and the media’s sources had to have known that.
I am beginning, slowly, to come to the conclusion that the so-called deep state, with the encouragement and cooperation of the Obama administration, used a counterintelligence investigation as an excuse to get political dirt on the Trump campaign in an effort to undermine it. Now that the worst case scenario has come to pass, viz. Trump winning the election, that effort continues in the same guise so as to undermine Trump's presidency and prevent him from replacing the bureaucracy with people who are either more conservative or more populist. The deep state actors probably have convinced themselves that they are the true patriots, protecting the nation from a dangerously incompetent president, but the fact remains that what they are doing is extremely subversive.

I think the story will eventually come out, although it will never truly be admitted by those on the left. The same way the left will never admit that they were unwitting tools of the Soviet Union during the Cold War and thereby made winning that "war" much more difficult.

Last edited by sunmaster14; Today at 01:16 PM. Reason: added excerpt from article
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:14 PM   #2134
TheL8Elvis
Philosopher
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,503
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Hmmm. This is the first time that I can recall you showing any desire for honest argument.
there are not enough

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...rref=undefined
Mueller Seeks White House Documents Related to Trump’s Actions as President
WASHINGTON — Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel, has asked the White House for documents about some of President Trump’s most scrutinized actions since taking office, including the firing of his national security adviser and F.B.I. director, according to White House officials.

Nothingburgers all around !
__________________
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:53 PM   #2135
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,128
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
This article captures my current thinking.



I am beginning, slowly, to come to the conclusion that the so-called deep state, with the encouragement and cooperation of the Obama administration, used a counterintelligence investigation as an excuse to get political dirt on the Trump campaign in an effort to undermine it. Now that the worst case scenario has come to pass, viz. Trump winning the election, that effort continues in the same guise so as to undermine Trump's presidency and prevent him from replacing the bureaucracy with people who are either more conservative or more populist. The deep state actors probably have convinced themselves that they are the true patriots, protecting the nation from a dangerously incompetent president, but the fact remains that what they are doing is extremely subversive.

I think the story will eventually come out, although it will never truly be admitted by those on the left. The same way the left will never admit that they were unwitting tools of the Soviet Union during the Cold War and thereby made winning that "war" much more difficult.
Note to Emily's Cat - you were asking about credible sources.

The New York] Times is generally considered credible
The Washington Post is generally considered credible
The New York Post... less so.




Of course, it was very helpful to the Deep State that Junior agreed to meeting what he thought* was representative of the Russian Government to get dirt on Hilary. And within four hours of him agreeing to the meeting, Senior said that there'd be dirt on Clinton.


*probably with justification but with a wafer thin shred of deniability
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:17 PM   #2136
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,279
Enter the oligarch.

Quote:
Less than two weeks before Donald Trump accepted the Republican presidential nomination, his campaign chairman offered to provide briefings on the race to a Russian billionaire closely aligned with the Kremlin, according to people familiar with the discussions.

Paul Manafort made the offer in an email to an overseas intermediary, asking that a message be sent to Oleg Deripaska, an aluminum magnate with whom Manafort had done business in the past, these people said.

“If he needs private briefings we can accommodate,” Manafort wrote in the July 7, 2016, email, portions of which were read to The Washington Post along with other Manafort correspondence from that time.

The emails are among tens of thousands of documents that have been turned over to congressional investigators and Special Counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s team as they probe whether Trump associates coordinated with Russia as part of Moscow’s efforts to interfere in the 2016 U.S. election.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:32 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.