|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
12th February 2021, 11:44 AM | #361 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 550
|
Annulment of the calunnia would certainly give us closure on the case. A more emphatic closure than even H/Z offered since he upheld the calunnia. I don't think that M/B offered satisfactory closure in their judgement. I regard it as more of a buffet where the lions share went to the defence while the prosecution and colpevolisti were thrown enough morsels for them to whimper over and gnaw at for eternity. All this does is keep wounds festering instead of healing. The continual anti-knox sentiment on YouTube is a perfect example.
Annulment of the calunnia would mean that the case would wither and die as it should do. It doesn't appear that Italy has the moral integrity to grasp the nettle just yet. Hoots |
__________________
The pro-guilt psychology is that if you can't nail K&S with evidence, don't presume innocence, try something else. |
|
9th March 2021, 12:01 AM | #362 |
Scholar
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 52
|
Kinda sad Italy can't find a way to admit what happened and apologize, all for the better.
Trust and just is on hard times. |
12th March 2021, 08:48 PM | #363 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
15th March 2021, 12:38 PM | #364 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 550
|
It's always been clear to me that M/B acquitted K&S primarily due to the reasons stated in 8.1; however, it may have been likely that Italy knew that they'd lose the ECHR case on human rights and domestic laws violations and wanted to pre-empt it. If M/B had went with Nencini and endorsed the guilty verdict it might have huge repercussions later, that would involve a VERY public release from prison as a result of the significant human rights violations. It stands to reason that Italy might have wanted to avoid that public humiliation at all costs.
Hoots |
__________________
The pro-guilt psychology is that if you can't nail K&S with evidence, don't presume innocence, try something else. |
|
16th March 2021, 02:28 PM | #365 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 863
|
La nuova vita di Rudy Guede
Just for the record:
I think this is the first online publication ever, related to "la morte di Meredith Kercher" (as they put it), without any mention of "Amanda Knox"... Scacchi, Caritas e Bistrot, la nuova vita di Rudy Guede
Quote:
Fotogallery: La nuova vita di Rudy Guede |
__________________
"Found a typo? You can keep it..." |
|
16th March 2021, 05:26 PM | #366 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,451
|
I read the translation and it mentioned that "many" still think Rudy is innocent which looks to me like a disguised sideswipe at Amanda. Further although it mentioned a lot about Rudy's life and how it has change for the better, much better! There was no mention of his victim Meredith. Or any indication that Rudy will ever admit to murdering Meredith on his own. When someone is rehabilitated, even a thoroughly disgusting criminal, I generally am pleased but here since Rudy doesn't seem to acknowledge his sole responsibility I have my doubts about his rehabilitation.
|
17th March 2021, 12:05 PM | #367 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
|
Here's a link for the remaining guilters to really get their teeth into:
https://www.patreon.com/knoxrobinson |
17th March 2021, 10:37 PM | #368 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
As far as I'm concerned, he can sit there and rot.
|
21st March 2021, 03:38 AM | #369 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 550
|
Napoleoni and Zugarini in jail or not
Remember these links from last year indicating jail terms for Napoleoni and Zugarini?
https://www.umbria24.it/cronaca/peru...e-altri-cinque https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/202...mento/5934847/ Are both actually in prison or not, or are they free pending an appeal? An Italian pro-guilter said Napoleoni was cleared on appeal. I can't find anything online even in Italian to support it. Any clues? Hoots |
__________________
The pro-guilt psychology is that if you can't nail K&S with evidence, don't presume innocence, try something else. |
|
21st March 2021, 06:09 PM | #370 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
I highly doubt they were cleared as they were only sentenced last September. As we all know, Italian courts do not work this quickly. It is highly unlikely an appeal would have been lodged, accepted, and a new trial to have taken place and concluded in only 6 months.
|
22nd March 2021, 11:35 AM | #371 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 550
|
|
__________________
The pro-guilt psychology is that if you can't nail K&S with evidence, don't presume innocence, try something else. |
|
22nd March 2021, 03:07 PM | #372 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
24th March 2021, 02:40 PM | #373 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 6,312
|
Just to update readers here on the ECHR - Committee of Ministers (glacially slow) progress (as typical of the cases against Itay) in this case:
Italy has 56 pending leading cases before the Committee of Ministers (CoM). One of these cases is Knox v. Italy. Of these 56 cases, Knox v. Italy is one of the 15 awaiting an Action Plan or Report from Italy.* Italy did provide a preliminary communication (as denoted by the CoM) to the CoM on 10 January 2020. Italy acknowledged the ECHR judgment in that communication. It paid the Just Satisfaction to Knox as reported 3 January 2020. The earliest pending leading case awaiting an Action Plan or Report is De Tommaso v. Italy 43395/09 ECHR final judgment date 23 February 2017. The ECHR final judgment date for Knox v. Italy is 24 June 2019 and the CoM has likewise not received an Action Plan or Report. However, the CoM has received an Action Plan from the Italian government for the case Cordella and Others v. Italy 54414/13, final judgment date also 24 June 2019, involving the failure of the Italian government to address the health effects of air pollution from a steel plant. So onlookers expecting a resolution of Knox v. Italy may need to exercise patience. As a guide as to what can be expected, one may consider the pending leading case Cafagna v. Italy 26073/13 ECHR final judgment date 12 January 2018. The CoM has received 3 communications from Italy on this case, with the latest an Action Plan or Report received 25 June 2020. This Action Plan or Report states that, as an Individual Measure, Cafagna was acquitted in new proceedings and, as General Measures,
Quote:
The CoM has not yet finalized its evaluation of Italy's efforts to redress the violations of international law declared by the ECHR in Cafagna v. Italy. * Of the other 41 cases, the CoM reports that Italy has filed a required Action Plan or Report in 34 cases; in 7 cases, no Action Plan or Report was required. Sources: https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng#{%22EXECDocumentTypeCollection%22:[%22CEC%22],%22EXECLanguage%22:[%22ENG%22],%22EXECState%22:[%22ITA%22],%22EXECIsClosed%22:[%22False%22],%22EXECType%22:[%22L%22]} http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=004-48795 http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=DH-DD(2020)589F |
24th March 2021, 06:49 PM | #374 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Am I to understand that Cafagna received a new trial and was then acquitted as a result of what the ECHR ruled? If so, this would be good news for Amanda.
|
24th March 2021, 07:20 PM | #375 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 6,312
|
My understanding is that Cafagna requested and was acquitted in a revision trial.
Here's the CoM summary of the Case Description and Status of Execution:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sources: http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=004-48796 http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=DH-DD(2019)1464F |
24th March 2021, 10:14 PM | #376 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Excellent. Mr. Cafagna requested a revision trial and was acquitted. Since the statements Amanda made were illegally obtained without a lawyer present, it seems to me that it's a slam dunk case that she would be acquitted.
|
25th March 2021, 03:17 PM | #377 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,017
|
I read Amanda is expecting a baby , life moves on for most of us.
|
25th March 2021, 03:44 PM | #378 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
4th April 2021, 07:41 AM | #379 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,311
|
were there fingerprints on the knife handle?
Amanda's DNA profile was found on the handle of Raffaele's knife, but was the knife checked specifically for fingerprints?
|
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
|
4th April 2021, 09:08 AM | #380 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 550
|
Amanda YouTube interview
Here's another interview with Amanda. She talks alone without interruption for around an hour describing her prison ordeal. Some of it is heartbreaking. The last half hour or so is a Q and A. She does refer to the fact that she is still fighting the legal aspects of the calunnia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCHoN5gOQkk Hoots |
__________________
The pro-guilt psychology is that if you can't nail K&S with evidence, don't presume innocence, try something else. |
|
4th April 2021, 07:36 PM | #381 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
This is the testimony of Giuseppe Privitera, the fingerprint expert. He does not mention testing the knife at all.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...%27s_Testimony |
4th April 2021, 07:36 PM | #382 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
8th April 2021, 01:52 PM | #383 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
At about one hour into the interview, Amanda says that she is continuing to fight to have her calunnia conviction overturned. I'm glad to hear that.
|
8th April 2021, 09:53 PM | #384 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
I haven't followed the details of Amanda's post-acquittal life, but her name itself should always serve as a reminder/warning to never talk to the cops without a lawyer, especially in a foreign country where you don't speak the language. Parents should be whispering to their kids on the way to a semester abroad (if we ever get there again): "Remember Amanda Knox." I can't help but think of how her life would be different if she had just gone home, which would have been a perfectly reasonable thing to do after her roommate was murdered. |
8th April 2021, 11:09 PM | #385 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
Really? You think an eye witness and prima facie suspect to a horrendous crime should just be allowed to leave the country presumably because they are American and who cares about the innocent victim in all of this?
"..the f act t hat K NOX was in the house 7 Via della Pergola at the time when young Meredith Kercher was killed constitutes a fact of absolute and indisputable certainty. Martuscelli,Masi, F avi – Florence Court 10 Feb 2017" |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
9th April 2021, 06:45 AM | #386 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 298
|
Speaking of eye witnesses, you still haven't explained why Guede wasn't the prosecution's star witness versus Knox/Sollecito during the Hellmann trial. Especially since, as you well know, his own trial process was finished and his sentence finalized. When will you get around to this? Any particular decade?
Bob never mentioned Knox being American. Try a course in remedial reading. |
9th April 2021, 07:02 AM | #387 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
|
The sad truth is that you (still) don't understand how and why your C&P statement came to pass. If you'd like me to give you a hint: perhaps try looking at the "judicial facts" that were finalised by the Italian Supreme Court in Knox's criminal slander conviction*, and then realise that "judicial facts" that have been affirmed by the SC in Italy cannot be changed without revision trials...... * The criminal slander conviction that Italy effectively has no choice but to quash, unless it wants to disregard the remedy required of it by the ECHR. Though frankly, even if Italy stubbornly refuses to do so - and hopes the European Council blinks first, rather than kicking Italy out - the ECHR adjudication has ridden a coach and horses through the validity/fairness of the investigation and trials process in any event, thereby rendering the verdict a shocking fail already. |
||
9th April 2021, 09:05 AM | #388 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
The relevant legal facts of the outcome of Sollecito's appeal for compensation contains the following passages:
Quote:
It is noted that Knox does not dare claim compensation similarly as she would get the same bum's rush. |
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
9th April 2021, 09:51 AM | #389 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 6,312
|
Under international and Italian constitutional law, as decided by the judgments of the Italian Constitutional Court including its judgment number 113 of 2011, the relevant legal position, including the interpretation of legal "facts", must ultimately follow the final judgments of the ECHR.
The ECHR in its 24 June 2019 final judgment in the case Knox v. Italy found, in the summary of the Committee of Ministers, which supervises the execution of judgments of the ECHR:
Quote:
In fact, Italy has been slow, compared to other western European democracies, in fulfilling its solemn legal obligations in a number of cases under the European Convention of Human Rights treaty. The current (9 April 2021) status of Italy's actions to correct the violations of international law found by the ECHR in Knox v. Italy is summarized as follows by the Committee of Ministers:
Quote:
Sources: http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=004-52517 http://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=DH-DD(2020)27F https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng#{%22EXECDocumentTypeCollection%22:[%22CEC%22],%22EXECLanguage%22:[%22ENG%22],%22EXECState%22:[%22ITA%22],%22EXECIsClosed%22:[%22False%22],%22EXECType%22:[%22L%22],%22EXECAPStatus%22:[%221%22]} |
9th April 2021, 10:11 AM | #390 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
It is clear that these judges were determined to find against Sollecito from this quote:
Quote:
We know that of the SIX experts who gave testimony, only ONE, that hired by the Kerchers, stated Guede could NOT have acted alone. We know that no evidence of anyone else was found in the room where Kercher was murdered. No one else's DNA, fingerprints, shoe prints, etc. were found on, in, under or around Kercher's body. ONLY that of Guede. Isn't that rather odd that only ONE of the killers would leave any evidence of themselves behind? What are these "facts" that they refer to that show that Guede "could not have acted alone"? The prosecution claimed this, but proved none. They claimed that Kercher had to have been forcibly held down, yet no DNA was left on her body or clothing by anyone holding her down with their hands which surely would have left their DNA. Where are their bloody shoe or footprints around her body? Her throat was cut leaving a large amount of blood on the floor around her upper torso. If she was being held down, how could those holding her down not be kneeling in her blood and getting their hands bloody? How could they not leave bloody fingerprints? Guede couldn't avoid it yet somehow...somehow...these alleged others managed to. One has to ignore logic and common sense to believe that others participated in Kercher's murder and leave nothing of themselves behind in evidence. As for Knox's "admission" to being there, these yahoos completely ignore that she also clearly states she has no real memory of it, her account cannot be counted on to be real, and the purpose of her writing it was to clarify that her statements were written under duress by the police including being smacked, called a liar and told she had amnesia when she denied being there. Of course Amanda never bothered to file for compensation. Why would she when she knows it would be a complete and expensive waste of time? But I note your use of "she does not dare" as if she is somehow 'afraid' of doing so. Very Vixenish. |
9th April 2021, 10:16 AM | #391 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
Quote:
|
9th April 2021, 10:21 AM | #392 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
9th April 2021, 12:12 PM | #393 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
|
|
9th April 2021, 02:24 PM | #394 |
Adult human female
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
9th April 2021, 02:52 PM | #395 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 6,312
|
It may be useful to remind ourselves of the content of Italy's preliminary communication to the Committee of Ministers on Knox v. Italy.
In particular, that communication indicates that the text of the ECHR judgment was translated into Italian (from the original French) and distributed to the relevant judiciary. This, I suggest, is an indication of preparation for a potential revision trial and possibly changes to Italian law.
Quote:
Source: https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng#{%22EXECIdentifier%22:[%22DH-DD(2020)27F%22]} |
10th April 2021, 12:31 AM | #396 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
|
|
__________________
who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
|
10th April 2021, 02:46 AM | #397 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 15,561
|
|
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else. |
|
10th April 2021, 04:55 AM | #398 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
|
After all this time..... you still don't know (or understand?) what the ECHR does? No, the ECHR is not a supranational court. It cannot superimpose legal judgements upon signatory states. But It can - and does (and did in the Knox matter) - request remedies from signatory states. In this instance, it has requested that Italy revises Knox's case without using any evidence which is linked to the abuses of Knox's human rights. In practice, therefore, the ECHR is requesting that Italy revises Knox's case with the removal of her 1.45am and 5.45am statements, since these were obtained via a breach of Knox's human rights. And in turn, this means the ECHR is more-or-less requesting that Italy acquits Knox without retrial. Now, Italy is perfectly constitutionally able to disregard the ECHR request. But such a denial could bring with it certain unwelcome ramifications. It could result in Italy being removed as a signatory state of the European Convention on Human Rights, and it could result in Italy being "disinvited" from the Council of Europe. So Italy will need to decide what it prefers. Though frankly - as I said in my previous post - even if it chooses to deny the ECHR request, the ECHR adjudication itself has already made a mockery of Knox's criminal slander conviction, since it's now officially self-evident that the entire basis for the conviction was evidence obtained in breach of Knox's human rights. (I mean, many of us here knew this a very long time ago, and have written about it many times. The ECHR adjudication has validated our opinions entirely, for precisely the same reasons. It's just that a small number of people with agendas and preconceptions apparently needed to believe that Knox just had to have been evil in some way, right?! And it seems like the ECHR adjudication went in one ear and out the other for many - if not all - of those people...) |
10th April 2021, 08:02 AM | #399 |
The Clarity Is Devastating
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 20,891
|
Ah yes,
horse apples fool's gold Rocky Mountain oysters long pig horned toad shooting star virtual reality judicial fact I love these phrases where the initial adjective is really a synonym for "not." |
__________________
"*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote |
|
10th April 2021, 08:02 AM | #400 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 298
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|