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16th February 2021, 07:00 AM | #641 |
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16th February 2021, 07:23 AM | #642 |
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16th February 2021, 07:31 AM | #643 |
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Strictly speaking a paramedic is an EMT-P a much higher level of training and certification than EMT-B.
Here is a source on the levels of EMT that exist in various states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerge..._by_U.S._state But strictly speaking invasive interventions are limited to paramedics, while bandages and oxygen is covered by EMT-B. Needles and Drugs are all paramedic stuff. |
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16th February 2021, 07:42 AM | #644 |
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Yeah, that's not great. An EMT-B ought to know better than to wear anything claiming to be a paramedic. Apparently he was competent enough to talk a bystander through applying a tourniquet to his arm, so that's something. Rittenhouse claimed to be a EMT and had no certification at all, and left the scene of a fatally wounded man rather than attempt to render aid.
Generally speaking, I would be wary of any street medic that is carrying a weapon. None of the street medic groups I'm aware of carry weapons while offering medical services at protests. They usually make a point of making it clear they are "noncombatants", not that such things ever stop the cops from targeting medical volunteers. |
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19th February 2021, 07:30 AM | #645 |
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Thing is he's not being charged for a curfew violation. I don't know whether this is a jurisdictional thing, but it seems odd that they aren't charging him for something that would help make their case.
I'm assuming that when you say "open carry" you specifically mean people carrying guns in a manner similar to the picture of the guys in that USA Today article you linked to. If that is indeed the case, does that mean you say how Rittenhouse was carrying his weapon is considered "brandishing"? It is, but it seems apparent that you're interpreting it wrong. Let's go back to the post of yours I was initially responding to: Webfusion quotes 939.48 (2) (a) of the Wisconsin code which you seem to believe only applies to defending a dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business. Do you really think that's a correct interpretation of the law?
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I didn't bother elaborating because it's more a comment on how you made your argument more than an actual argument. |
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11th March 2021, 05:49 AM | #646 |
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Prosecution and defense agree to postpone trial until November.
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13th March 2021, 08:06 AM | #647 |
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Prosecutors need more time to build their case? Really? What are they anticipating, maybe finding the cellphone of Ashley Kreuger?!!
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13th March 2021, 08:10 AM | #648 |
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13th March 2021, 07:36 PM | #649 |
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14th March 2021, 03:09 PM | #650 |
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14th March 2021, 05:57 PM | #651 |
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Very true. Also - I'm guessing the attorney general would like to delay the trial for as long as possible hoping the political climate will cool down. No matter which way the jury finds - there are going to be a lot of very, very, angry people. As for Rittenhouse - I am sure his lawyers would also be happy for a very long delay. So far their client comes across as immature, somewhat stupid, and certainly not likeable. I think they are hoping that he matures and learns his lines well so that he comes off as believable in front of the jury. No matter what the witnesses say - his only hope is to convince a jury that he was in fear for his life. He can only do that if he testifies on his own behalf and comes across as believable and sympathetic. If his lawyers think he is incapable of learning his lines and coming across as sympathetic and would harm his own case by testifying then his goose is cooked - IMHO. |
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15th March 2021, 04:24 PM | #652 |
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Yeah, I'm positive he's ultra jazzed about being under a murder indictment. He gets to do all of the things that kids his age do like...uhm...sit inside a house at an undisclosed location, and then, uhm, he also gets to, lets see....uhm. Oh yeah, **** all because everyone (except some **** kicking racists that he's now banned from seeing) hate him so much that he fears for his life.
I'm sure you've nailed this right on the head. Innocent people always think like that too. "I hope this will drag on as long as possible so I can be semi-free while under restrictions from a court vs. getting this over with because I'm innocent." You're, like, super duper good at this. You should be his lawyer. |
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15th March 2021, 04:26 PM | #653 |
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I disagree, putting him on the stand would be an extremely bad idea. He has no impulse control, as if that's not clear in spades, and he has no ability to make decisions when pressured. Any mildly decent DA will get him a bit hot and bothered by reading off his social media, show pictures of him with known racists, drill to why he's making that weird "ok" symbol in front of the crowd, ask him why he had a gun, why he was there, until he eventually says something regrettably stupid.
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15th March 2021, 05:29 PM | #654 |
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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16th March 2021, 06:00 AM | #655 |
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I understood what you were saying, I was opining that maturing is not something he can get down in 3-4 months. It's really, extremely tough to learn lines when you don't know what questions are going to be asked. The images aren't going to go anywhere, and I would bet the prosecution will have multiple images on stands throughout the whole trial.
Never know, I guess. You might be right, he could figure it all out, but considering his decisions thus far I'm not holding my breath. He killed someone and went out to a bar, drinking under 21, with a bunch of racists without a second thought...with his mom. Who is going to mature him? |
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16th March 2021, 07:10 AM | #656 |
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I am not saying he LIKES the current situation. (Yes, he's largely remaining in hiding, has limited contacts, etc.)
But, I am sure he thinks it is a much better situation than if he were in prison... - Right now, he is in hiding. But, he can set his own schedule. (Sleep when he wants, watch TV/exercise, talk to friends.) In prison, he will have even less freedom. - Right now, he has to worry about people on the street hating him. In prison, he will have to deal with various groups who may either dislike him, or will will target him for other reasons. And unlike the current situation (where he can avoid people he doesn't like), he will be less able to avoid people in prison |
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16th March 2021, 07:13 AM | #657 |
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Is he still proudly free as ****?
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16th March 2021, 08:03 AM | #658 |
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Jail. He'd be in jail before his trial, not prison.
All of this is true. I was more refuting webfusion's implication that this is some form of awesome victory for him and that he'd like it to go on until 2023. I don't think there's anything shocking in saying being out of prison, in any form it takes, is better than being in; however, being in his current situation isn't a victory. It still completely sucks, and if he were innocent he would still want this over quickly rather than drug out for years. |
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16th March 2021, 02:06 PM | #659 |
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Yes, but my assumption was that 1) he would be found guilty, and 2) he would end up in prison for a long, long time (if not for life).
Assuming those end up being true, the it would make sense for him to want to delay the trial as long as possible to maximize the period of time he would have prior to being incarcerated (rather than have an early/quick trial, which would see an earlier end to what little freedom he does have.)
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He might be looking at the facts in the case and either thinking to himself that he was guilty (ok, probably only a tiny chance of that), or that he was innocent (or justified) but was going to be "railroaded by the deep state" regardless of his guilt. |
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17th March 2021, 06:31 AM | #660 |
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17th March 2021, 06:19 PM | #661 |
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My default position actually is that Kyle's entitled to acquittal as a result of a successful affirmative claim of self-defense.
At no point have I seen anything in those videos EXCEPT valid decisions on Kyle's part to prevent his own life from being taken, in more than one instance that night. He is a young man unquestionably guilty of homicides, but these shootings were all justifiable and appear to fall within the scope and plain language and context of the statutes. |
19th March 2021, 09:31 AM | #662 |
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Those are all before he shot anyone, and not doing any of them would have stopped this situation from occurring. You have a ****** up view of "valid decisions". I'm going to enjoy your reaction when he's inevitably put in prison for a long ass mother ******* time. |
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19th March 2021, 01:49 PM | #663 |
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Of the three items you mentioned, only one has a criminal charge (a misdemeanor) attached to this case.
AFAIK, not one individual was arrested for curfew violation in Kenosha during the entire melee. Even in this particular case, it is not part of the prosecution's charges. So, I will not consider it as a factor. According to the Statute as written, even though he was (possibly) engaged in illegal activity, the right to self-defense still existed. How come you continue to hand-wave away that crucial legal element? Going someplace he wasn't invited? So now 'invitations' to public disorders are a thing? The town was being destroyed, and neither the Police nor the National Guard had a clue how to stop it. Kyle did not set out to Kenosha with the intention of stopping the rioting by using his gun to shoot the rioters. He had the weapon with him as protection. And the m16 proved its value, as the situation developed. I will enjoy YOUR reaction when he only gets a fine for M-I-P (possession of the weapon as a minor) -- and even THAT is not a given, as we've explored in this thread. |
19th March 2021, 02:45 PM | #664 |
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Irrelevant. The fact that he was only charged with one of those things does not necessarily mean that the others were acceptable courses of action.
Your earlier comment was about "valid decisions". You never said "illegal activities". Being in violation of the curfew was illegal. Even if the police are not charging him, he was still breaking the law. Going someplace he wasn't invited may not have been illegal, but it was an action that was both foolish, and had easily forseeable consequences.
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The "right of self defense" only goes so far. I cannot walk into a bar, start harassing and threatening other customers, and then pull out a gun and shoot them when my actions result in them getting upset.
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"I'm going to confront some violent protesters but I'm sure if I just ask nicely they will stop. Oh wait... they didn't? Well I never expected to use this gun but I guess I have no other option than to shoot people.". |
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19th March 2021, 03:16 PM | #665 |
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When I refer to 'valid decisions' on the part of Kyle, I meant pulling the trigger as he was being assaulted and his life was in danger.
All the Would-ofs and Could-ofs and Should-ofs are meaningless here. Rosenbaum was shot because he brought that on by his own actions. Grosskreutz was shot because he brought that on by his own actions. Huber, same. All three men chose to ENGAGE violently with a gun-carrying citizen and they suffered the obvious consequences. None of THOSE people had ANY right to take the gun forcefully from Kyle Rittenhouse. Period. |
19th March 2021, 03:47 PM | #666 |
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Well, in that case, I guess America will just have to accept more violent protests, because nobody is gonna take a stand and prevent it. Good luck with that.
(See: Portland, Oregon) Extreme-left demonstrators destroyed the Democratic headquarters in Portland hours after President Biden took the oath of office. |
19th March 2021, 04:29 PM | #667 |
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To be fair, he's also underage bar-hopping, drinking with the Proud Boys and flashing white-power signs. Which beats being passed around by tougher inmates, buying toilet wine for 8 soups a serving, and having to get a neck tattoo for the Aryans to protect you in the joint.
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19th March 2021, 04:35 PM | #668 |
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He had been just released from jail on $2-million bond, went with his mom to ONE local bar, was met there by guys who had (ostensibly) provided money for his release, and he showed them his appreciation.
Here is a photo of the JUDGE in this case (Schroeder) https://images.foxtv.com/static.fox6....png?ve=1&tl=1 |
Last edited by webfusion; 19th March 2021 at 04:51 PM. Reason: added link to photo of Judge in the case flashing White Power sign from the bench |
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19th March 2021, 06:51 PM | #669 |
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Nope. Wisconsin law permits people as young as 18 to consume alcohol if they are with a parent.
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19th March 2021, 09:22 PM | #670 |
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While I personally feel like this is a charge that he is most likely guilty of, I don't actually know that for sure.
Reading through the relevant legislation, Wisconsin Code 948.60, is sorta odd. The whole charge basically boils down to whether it applies under 948.60(3)(c) and that's based on how long the barrel length of the rifle is under section 941.28. The other odd thing is that it's apparently not illegal for Rittenhouse to obtain the gun, if he had the money he theoretically could go around paying for the guns of hundreds of adults so long as he doesn't get the gun himself. One thing that's very clear, however, is that the 19 year old who acquired the gun for him is gonna go to jail. |
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19th March 2021, 10:27 PM | #671 |
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Some of the sources of the Wikipedia article seem questionable but the circumstances of the first shooting don't seem very similar to "walking into a bar, ... harassing and threatening other customers, ... then [pulling] out a gun and [shooting] them when [his] actions result in them getting upset" or "[confronting] some violent protesters but I'm sure if I just ask nicely they will stop. Oh wait... they didn't? Well I never expected to use this gun but I guess I have no other option than to shoot people."?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_unrest_shooting
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ETA: A better anology might be: a guy on probation walks into a bar full of patrons who are setting things on fire in the bar in support of police reform. So the guy tries to put out the fires then gets attacked by bar patrons and tries to avoid them then he kills a bar patron with a concealed gun he doesn't have a Concealed Carry permit for. |
20th March 2021, 12:01 AM | #672 |
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20th March 2021, 12:26 AM | #673 |
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20th March 2021, 01:07 AM | #674 |
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"In general, a private person is justified in using non-deadly force upon another if they reasonably believe that: (1) such other person is committing a felony, or a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace; and (2) the force used is necessary to prevent further commission of the offense and to apprehend the offender. The force must be reasonable under the circumstances to restrain the individual arrested. This includes the nature of the offense and the amount of force required to overcome resistance.[91][92] In at least one state, a civilian may use reasonable force, including deadly force if reasonable, to prevent an escape from a lawful citizen's arrest"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...#United_States Is this valid in Wisconsin? |
20th March 2021, 05:01 AM | #675 |
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Feel free to discount that source but are there any videos depicting or sources claiming that Kyle Rittenhouse confronted, provoked, or in any way antagonized Joseph Rosenbaum or anyone else? There doesn't seem to be evidence of that in any video I've seen. Was his mere armed presence enough?
To be fair, I haven't seen evidence that Joseph Rosenbaum was setting fires but it seems very selective to only criticise and impugn Kyle Rittenhouse's presence there after the curfew. There seemed to be plenty of malefactors, miscreants, and people of questionable morals, maturity, and judgement out and about that night, including other armed ones. |
20th March 2021, 02:24 PM | #676 |
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scopedog asks: "Was his mere armed presence enough (to antagonize the people engaged in rioting) ?"
Apparently, yes. From my perspective, at some point, JoJo was likely screaming something to the effect of 'I'm gonna take the gun from you, and you ain't gonna like what happens then..." Even a robbery motive could have been the situation here, with that gun having some value to the 1%-er motorcycle gang member that was 'backing up" this JoJo fellow. (See: 'Alex Blaine') I also notice that the victims of the Kyle Rittenhouse shootings are now suing. The suits from Grosskreutz and Huber's family, each issued notice of claim against the City of Kenosha, Kenosha County, the sheriff's department, Sheriff David Beth, Police Chief Daniel Miskinis as well as a "as-yet unknown" number of current or former City and law enforcement employees. The suit said that on the night of the shooting, Kenosha police and the sheriff's department were "aware of, condoned, cooperated with and enabled the actions" of the armed vigilante groups who took it upon themselves to patrol the city in August, with law enforcement even filmed thanking the militia groups for their presence and handing out water. |
21st March 2021, 02:26 AM | #677 |
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21st March 2021, 03:04 AM | #678 |
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21st March 2021, 03:27 AM | #679 |
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21st March 2021, 05:45 AM | #680 |
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There are videos of the late Mr. Rosenbaum confronting and puffing his chest at some other armed militia men earlier in the evening -- "Shoot me, *****, shoot me right here!" -- so it is not a huge reach to 'invent' the scenario whereby Kyle is later accosted by this psycho-suicidal fellow (he was released from the hospital psychiatric ward after medical observation of his mental issues earlier that day).
Suburban Turkey calls it 'fiction' -- but that remains to be seen, in court. Anyone can google the rich and violent history of Joshua Joseph Ziminski. He is an integral part of this case, whether you like it or not (along with his antifa freakshow female, Ashley Kreuger). |
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