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10th August 2015, 04:40 PM | #81 |
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So Hae's mystery killer just happened to dump the car where Jay would find it? Jay, friend of Adnan the recent ex-boyfriend and with whom he spent a good portion of the day of the murder? Granted, anything is possible, but I don't see the point in playing out the implications of such low probability coincidences. Especially when they need to be multiplied by other low probability events in order to arrive at a conclusion other than "Adnan did it". |
10th August 2015, 05:09 PM | #82 |
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Maybe you missed this part of the message just before your post
Jay admitted on the stand during cross examination that the location of Hae's car would be in the midst of his normal routine and that he would recognize her car. If that is correct, it indicates that it would not be any special knowledge. |
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10th August 2015, 05:28 PM | #83 |
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10th August 2015, 05:30 PM | #84 |
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I should add this interesting little item. . . .
Similar to the case with Jay and Adnan, James Thompson helped convict James Owens of murder even though later DNA evidence shoudl that neither appears to have been involved. Also in Baltimore and I believe involved some of the same detectives involved in Adnan's conviction (Same department at least) http://www.wbaltv.com/news/us-court-...t-bpd/28241638 http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...ore-city-paper |
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10th August 2015, 05:40 PM | #85 |
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No, many people most likely found the car but he was (potentially) the first person interviewed by the police who knew where the car was.
I was a passenger in a Jeep Cherokee when a women with a tank (old station wagon) pulls out suddenly and his in the side. Does minimal damage to either car but she decided to sue us (she lost the case by the way). Every few days, I would see the car wandering around. Haven't seen it in a couple of years, making me assume that she either moved or got rid of the car. If the car is dumped in an area where you hang out and you see it, it is not extraordinary. In addition, the car was not that far from where the body was dumped. If you look at the map, it was 5000 ft from Patrick, one of his sources of drugs, and only 8000 ft from where Hae's body was dumped. I take my dog for daily walks of 3 to 5 miles. I will give you an 80% that I would see the car on my dog walks within a few days. Maybe Patrick walked his Pitt Bull, saw the car, and told Jay? |
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10th August 2015, 06:24 PM | #86 |
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Wasn't there some weirdness concerning the condition of the car and also a claim that it had been found elsewhere by other police earlier on?
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10th August 2015, 06:32 PM | #87 |
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Well, she was suppose to have gotten into an accident sometime before. I believe it was when she was Dating Don so it could not have been that long. There could have been some minor damage which one might note even though I did not see any in the picture.
Might not be what you were asking though? |
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11th August 2015, 03:26 AM | #88 |
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11th August 2015, 07:57 AM | #89 |
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How do we know he found the car? Because if the answer is he said he did, and no one corroborated this (before he met with the police) then we can't eliminate the police finding it.
Yes - someone reported it being found to the county police, if memory serves. I can't find which podcast noted that right now, though. My bet is undisclosed, but I can't put my finger on it yet. I am still searching. Found it: http://undisclosed-podcast.com/docs/...dendum%205.pdf
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11th August 2015, 08:04 AM | #90 |
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And that doesn't seem unlikely to you? Think of it like a Venn diagram. Set A is the number of people who know where the car is. Set B is the number of people with a meaningful connection to Hae. Both of those sets are pretty small, but Jay just happens to fall in the intersection of those sets? Do you have any evidence that "many people most likely found the car" prior to Jay leading the cops there? |
11th August 2015, 08:18 AM | #91 |
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My answer is more that we cannot be certain how the car was actually discovered.
It could have been that the police found it just prior, Jay could have known where it was due to being near where he hung out, or it could have just serendipity. Could have been that Jay was involved. What I can say is that things are pretty dark with the Baltimore police department. There are a huge number of lawsuits as well as later overturning of convictions against various suspects of crimes, often involving the same detectives which were involved with Adnan's case. They involve Brady violations, junk science, threatening witnesses, etc. I looked up some of the cases discussed on the last episode of Undisclosed and they appear to have reported on the cases I looked at accurately. There was something (and maybe still is) something rotten in the Baltimore PD. |
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11th August 2015, 02:27 PM | #92 |
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On the previous page I posted a link to a document showing that on February 27th the police sent out a request to the transit authority asking for help locating the car. I can't think of a single reason why they would waste the transit authorities time looking for a car they already knew the location of. They interviewed Jay that night, which suggests that unless they happened to find it that 12 hour timespan or so, they didn't know where it was before he told them where it was.
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11th August 2015, 02:29 PM | #93 |
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11th August 2015, 02:45 PM | #94 |
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My feeling with this case is that BPD probably did have a lot of rotten elements to it at the time, that Jay is a pathological liar, and that the police probably did help him along with his testimony quite a bit, as well as massaging the cell phone evidence in the most favorable way, and various other less than honest tactics. And that Adnan's defense would be wise to pursue those issues if they get an appeal to get the conviction overturned.
But I still feel the most likely and plausible culprit of this crime is Adnan. I don't think an innocent victim was caught up in a total frame job. There are several foundational elements of this crime that just wont budge. Jay knew the location of the car, it's just a solid piece of evidence that can never be explained away. Jay confessed to his friend the cause of death and what happened before anyone knew it was a murder. Adnan was with Jay that day and was seen asking Hae for a ride in the morning. Adnan lent Jay his car and his phone for no reason. Adnan has a clear motive. The Baltimore police bumbling around and screwing everything else up can't erase these facts. But their actions and poor approach to handling the witnesses could very well be enough to raise reasonable doubt. |
11th August 2015, 04:27 PM | #95 |
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You are not thinking like a teenager
Don't worry, I have trouble doing so as well. The fact Jay borrowed his car might be significant if it had not happened in the past. From one of the other kids in track, he had driven Adnan's car before and picked him up. The cell phone came with the car by default because you could not bring a cell phone into school. You also know that there are witnesses who told the police that Hae told Adnan later that afternoon that she could not give him a ride and he was fine with it. He did not keep pestering her. I call this "Confessions 101." A confession, to have any value at all, has to have probative value. As far as I can tell, Jay's confession does not match the crime at all. At least nothing that he could not have gotten from the police or the news media. Edit: I should also add that if you listen to his story, it sounds like Jay and Adnan are in the same car even when they could not be in anything like the storyline. This leads me to believe that the whole story is created. I have a question with you? There have been several girls within the last few years who have disappeared and later found having been strangled. If you were to hazard a guess about how one was killed, wouldn't you very likely guess strangled for her as well? I do not trust any evidence from Jen if that is the person who you are referring to with regards to Jay confession to somebody. I think the whole time frame of that is just too screwy. As far as I can tell, it looks like at least three serial killers were wandering around he Baltimore area during that time frame. To be clear, I am not arguing that Adnan is certainly innocent. I do think it goes beyond reasonable doubt to probable innocence. |
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11th August 2015, 05:15 PM | #96 |
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I don't think Jay is capable of telling the truth about what happened, so I wouldn't expect anything in his story to perfectly match reality. It's possible Adnan came to him on a previous day asking for his help and planning out the crime in advance, and Jay is significantly more involved than his testimony lets on. And it's not so much that he let Jay use his car, it's that he thrust it upon him for no reason. Jay didn't ask for it. I would need a good reason to doubt Jen's testimony beyond it not being compatible with innocence.
If Adnan is innocent he is, as Sarah Koenig said, the unluckiest person in the world. A random serial killer kills his ex girlfriend just when he happens to have motive to kill her. It just happens to happen on a day he gave his car and phone to his criminal friend and when he has no solid alibi. The crime happens to be perfectly compatible with a two car job involving moving the victim's car. The friend he was with during the significant and unaccounted for time period of the day just happens to be the one person in all of Baltimore to stumble onto the victim's car, which has gone unnoticed by anyone else for nearly 2 months. This same friend just happens to arrange in advance a corroborating story about the crime with another friend (Jen). I guess my question would be, if Adnan really turned out to be guilty what exactly would shock you about this revelation? The guy with the motive and the opportunity to kill the girl is the one who actually did it? |
12th August 2015, 11:48 AM | #97 |
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Sometimes I think that maybe Adnan is guilty so I don't have any real strong position. I just don't see any strong evidence.
To me, there is not even enough evidence to argue that he is probably guilty but just not beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't really see the motive as being that strong and not even backed up. There is nobody, other than Jay, who indicates that Adnan had any interest in killing Hae. You pretty much agree with me that Jay is a pathological liar. I have already addressed opportunity. If there was some witness at school whom stated that Adnan got into the car with Hae, I would likely shift my position. If you go to the Amanda Knox case, Guede tells a story where he was at the home in the bathroom when somebody broke into the house and murdered Meredeth. There is an element of truth in his story and we can kind of strain that out. I would expect such elements of truth in Jay's story. With Jen, an issue with me is simply that she has been friends with Jay just about forever. There is even the idea that they may have been in business together. Currently, Jen actually has drugs charges pending along with Jay's brother. I believe Jen would lie in support of Jay. With police "helping" the story, I think we move far from being so many coincidences in reality. Many of the items you see as being significant just do not seem to be to me. One interesting item though is that Jay has been charged with numerous crimes and has found guilty. Somehow he has always managed to slide out of jail time. He would seem to be the luckiest guy on the planet. |
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13th August 2015, 12:40 PM | #98 |
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I asked my roommate cold a question -
You hear on the news that the body of a young woman was found buried in a park after having been murdered. Guess how the woman has been murdered? My roommates answer was that the woman was either strangled or stabbed. My roommate does not pay attention to the news and has not been paying any attention to serial. |
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15th August 2015, 02:40 PM | #99 |
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16th August 2015, 09:40 PM | #100 |
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Kind of by definition, eh? Every single wrongly convicted person could say the same.
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Just for one thing, the narrative about helping Jay unload his grave-digging clothes and boots on the day after murder is not credible. That day was a major weather catastrophe, with power out all over the county and ice all over the roads. She could have been out driving around to help Jay hit a dumpster, but she would -- IMO -- anchor her memory of that drive to the storm. She doesn't even mention it. She says that it "might have been raining." I don't believe this happened, or at least not on the day or in the way that she describes it.
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16th August 2015, 11:19 PM | #101 |
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It seems odd that Jenn would help her friend create an incriminating story against himself for no reason or that Jay would ask her to help him incriminate himself for a crime he didn't commit. We have to assume Jay has incredible foresight. He knows he was with Adnan and had Adnan's car the afternoon Hae disappeared, so if the police ask Jenn about Adnan and he finds out, he will start to get nervous about the police looking into him. This makes sense so far. But it makes less sense he is able to, within 24 hours, foresee that his best course of action is confess to being an accessory after the fact to murder (a felony that can carry a multi year prison sentence) and to piece together an elaborate narrative with confessing to Jenn about the night of a crime that never happened that he preps Jenn to recite back to the police that is predicated on him just happening to know where the victim's car nobody else has found is. It's incredulous to me.
And it still comes down to the car and I think this is simply where people who believe in Jay's innocence have a different perception than people who don't. For me Jay knowing the location of the car is just about on par, in terms of incriminating and probative value, with a hypothetical scenario where Jay is found in possession of a watch the victim was known to be wearing when last seen alive. |
17th August 2015, 05:19 AM | #102 |
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17th August 2015, 11:32 AM | #103 |
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I know, right? The radio frequency engineer who testified at trial said flat out that the tower information could not be used to locate the phone. Period, full stop.
Combine that with the fact that Jay Wilds was invited to adjust his "memory" so that it matched the times/towers list he was shown, and it's amazing that the list was taken to corroborate his story. (And even at that, the majority of them don't match!) The Knox case included a bunch of ridiculous "it's compatible" points that were used against her and Raffaele. That's exactly how the tower evidence was discussed in court: Could the phone have been here? Yes, it's compatible. Look, jury! The engineer said the phone was definitely there. Just like Jay said! The Serial producers fell right into that tar pit, too. You can hear them in the last episode talking about where the phone was based on which tower originated a call . . . and extrapolating from that off-base surmise that both Wilds and Syed were lying. |
17th August 2015, 11:45 AM | #104 |
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Maybe.
All the possibilities here are equally improbable, imo. Did a well-liked high school senior up and strangle his ex as his first known act of aggression of any kind, then callously stuff her into a car for a few hours while smoking dope, then force his weed connection to help bury her, then fool everybody close to him for six weeks? Did that guy henceforth refuse to accuse the weed buddy of the crime himself? Could be. Did a random black kid get roped into helping police "solve" a murder because they were going to charge him with it if he didn't help them? (That's what he said in court.) Did the police actually convince him that they had evidence his weed buddy was guilty but needed his testimony anyway? Could be. Did a 19-yr-old girl try to help her friend by telling police she helped him get rid of evidence? Was it just coincidence that the lawyer she hired within hours of realizing her name was on the call logs lived right next to one of the detectives? Did she have some kind of secret deal with the prosecutors that kept her from being charged with destroying evidence? Did she screw up her statement when they turned on the recorder? Could be. I don't know who did this. I don't think anybody does, except the person who did it and possibly Jay. |
17th August 2015, 02:36 PM | #105 |
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17th August 2015, 05:28 PM | #106 |
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Sure. At some point, though, just out of sheer dumb luck you'd think the detectives and prosecutors would have come up with something resembling evidence if it were there to find.
The craziness of their crime narrative points, imo, toward innocence more than anything else. |
17th August 2015, 07:44 PM | #107 |
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That is pretty much how I look at it. . . .Whenever I look at a confession, and I am calling what Jay did a confession, usually it will be built on a bed of truth but just they try to get themselves less involved with a real confession. False confessions usually have little to do with the actual events.
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23rd August 2015, 07:48 AM | #108 |
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The police find a body in Leakin Park. The body is the ex-girlfriend of a person for whom they then obtain cell phone records. The cell phone records place him in Leakin Park on the day the dead person went missing and your claim is that the cell phone data is meaningless?
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23rd August 2015, 12:19 PM | #109 |
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For one thing. my understanding is that Jay's Grandmother's house is supported by that tower. The issue is that cell phone data (by AT&T own cover letter) is consider not useful for incoming call (which these were) and the data was not properly recorded and was not done until months afterwards.
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23rd August 2015, 12:20 PM | #110 |
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23rd August 2015, 01:32 PM | #111 |
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When they measured cell phone calls, the police cherry picked their data. One would expect pages and pages of data but they only have a few discreet measurements which are hand written. Several people who work the telecommunication industry seem to be aghast at that idea.
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23rd August 2015, 07:26 PM | #112 |
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There were two calls that "pinged" that tower on the night Hae Lee disappeared. Both were incoming to Syed's phone. When AT&T supplied the tower data to the police, they specifically and emphatically (all caps and underlined) stated that location of phones for incoming calls was unreliable.
It's unreliable because: If the incoming call is from another cell, the tower shown could be from one in the range of the caller, not the callee. That means that if whoever made those two calls was using a cell phone, it could be THEM in the range of the Leakin Park tower, not Syed's phone. What's more, the body's condition when it was discovered showed that it had not been buried as it was found (on the right side) at 7 - 8 pm that night. The burial had to have been at least a few hours after that. Finally, there's no reason to think that there was coverage at the burial site, as Jay Wilds testified. The expert from AT&T never left the car to find out. At best, it's known that there was coverage along the road outside the park, but there's no testimony suggesting that those calls came to a car on that road. |
23rd August 2015, 07:29 PM | #113 |
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Right? I can't believe they got away with that.
Hi, we're the prosecutors! We're going to take you for a ride around the county. You're going to use your equipment to make a few hundred phone calls as we go, but we don't want you to record any of the data you collect. Instead, just call out the tower numbers from a few places we'll tag, and one of us will write down what you say. Sounds legit. |
23rd August 2015, 08:06 PM | #114 |
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Also, according to the testimony of Jenn, whomever answer those supposed calls was a male with a deep voice. Even now, Adnan does not have what one would call a deep voice.
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24th August 2015, 09:55 PM | #115 |
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I think I know exactly why Jay knew where the car was. . . . .He was looking for the reward so was specifically looking for Hae's car
Also explains why Jen got involved. Jay talked Jen into helping with his story so he could get the reward. Jay seems to sold Adnan for money. . . . Possibly to get a motorcycle. |
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25th August 2015, 04:52 AM | #116 |
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I wanted to rewrite my previous response. It is not that I wrong anything wrong but wanted to be clear.
I think the logic on the latest version of Undisclosed is pretty solid. Jay was very likely the anonymous tip source and he really knew nothing about the crime. That is something that strikes me why Adnan is innocent. It really appears as if Jay actually knew nothing of the crime. It is really pathetic that Jay would sell Adnan to the cops for a few thousand dollars. Doesn't matter if it was for the motorcycle or not. I would not sell somebody I hate in such a manner. This also explains how Jay got Jen involved. He likely told her that he needed the money and nobody would actually get hurt. He might have also offered to split the money with her. Still, I think in part it explains how Jen might have become involved. With many people, one of the arguments with regards to Jay also is the location of the car. Let us assume that he did call in the anonymous tip. He initially did not know where the car was but hoped that with the location of the car, he would be able to use it to show that he knew something of the crime. He actively looked for the car and found it sometime between the anonymous call and when he was first officially interviewed. Tend to consider it most likely towards the end of that time but does not matter much. |
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25th August 2015, 03:02 PM | #117 |
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Crimestoppers
What an interesting twist from the newest Undisclosed.
The podcaster lawyers know for sure that:
They speculate that:
Jay says: I don't understand this line of questioning. And asks them to turn off the tape for a minute. If he was really the tipster, that would indeed have been a confusing moment, eh? Hey, you guys know that I did call! Just not right then! Why are you making it sound like I'm the bad guy? |
25th August 2015, 07:04 PM | #118 |
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This is a concise explanation rebutting false assertions about the cell tower evidence at trial. The in-depth discussions about cell tower technology are interesting but can prove a distraction away from the truth of what actually occurred there.
False: The cell tower evidence was used as geolocation data at trial i.e. that Adnan was at certain places at certain times, for example Leakin Park, and the sole evidence was the cell phone data. THE CELL PHONE EVIDENCE WAS NEVER USED OR ASSERTED TO BE A DEFINITE SOLE INDICATION OF ADNAN'S (or anyone else's) LOCATION. True: AW testified that: • the data could not be used to determine geolocation by itself. • cell towers covered a large area • any incoming or outgoing call could ping as many as 3 towers. True: AW's test drive was used to: • confirm Jay's testimony - i.e. that if a call was originated at a certain location, that call would be consistent with the ping locations as captured on Adnan's cell phone billing records. So that Jay/Adnan could have been at that location - not were at that location. It was never used as a free standing location narrative. •It was used to corroborate Jay's evidence plus that of the other witnesses and evidence. |
25th August 2015, 07:09 PM | #119 |
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25th August 2015, 11:13 PM | #120 |
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AT & T sent a fax to the State
that had a cover sheet stating explicitly that incoming calls were NOT reliable for location of the phone that was receiving them.
The state relied on them anyway. The defense was asleep at the switch. The calls that supposedly place the phone in Leakin Park were both incoming, which means there is no reliable cell phone evidence to be corroborated by Jay Wilds or any other person. Speaking of Jay Wilds, he told the world last January that he lied to the court about the burial happening during the 7 o'clock hour -- his latest version is that the whole thing happened "closer to midnight." So we have the doubly ridiculous situation of unreliable-for-location cell phone pings currently not being corroborated by the only person in the world who has ever claimed that Hae Min Lee was buried between 7 and 8 pm. This is no way to run a railroad, and yet it's exactly how the prosecution ran this particular railroad. |
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