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Tags "Serial" podcast , "Undisclosed" podcast , adnan syed , Maryland cases , murder cases

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Old 13th February 2016, 09:58 PM   #201
Desert Fox
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I found an interesting article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-...b_9202422.html

Says something we should be all concerned about where experts are suppose to help others understand evidence yet they are not actually all that familiar with the evidence they are trying to help the jurors with.

Interestingly, Susan Simpson (At least it would appear to be her) commented on the article.
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Old 13th February 2016, 10:06 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I did not say it was not moved after being prone in a different position. I said the way the body was buried is consistent with anterior lividity. Only the bottom half of her body was on its right side. The top half was face down.

I am not completely anonymous. Ask your pals Charlie Wilkes, who I met in person in July 2014 in Seattle and Halkides who is a Facebook friend of mine. It doesn't look like they are into the Syed case, based on the postings at IA, but if either of them asked me for the police file I would provide it to them.

Now you can stop with the fallacious arguments, okay?
As with Lobato case, you are making claims which you are not backing up, calling people names, and insulting people.
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Old 14th February 2016, 01:25 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Let us try this for you. . . .

1. Do you admit that Jay's testimony is pretty poor?
Does not really fit the crime scene and events real well? Not real coherent either?

2. Adnan appears to have had a pretty busy day that day. Probably going to track. It is almost definite that he went to the mosque that that day. Spent time with his family, etc.

3. After school, is there anybody (with the exception of Jay) who saw Adnan with Hae or with her car? Basically, can you place them together at all after school without Jay?

4. We cannot place Don and Hae together either but he appears to have a falsified alibi. In addition, he appears to have simply disappeared until something like 1 am the morning after Hae disappeared. We have times where we do not have Adnan with others (possibly counting Jay) but not for anything like the length which we have Don.

All together, Don is a much better suspect than Adnan. It probably was a spur of the moment murder, nothing planned. Once it happened, panic set in.
For Gawd's sake it was Patrick. I thought everyone knew that?

In such a situation faking an alibi isn't suspicious, merely intelligent.
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Old 14th February 2016, 06:16 AM   #204
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Just to clarify, he faked an alibi before it was known, by anybody other than the killer(s), that that she was actually dead.
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Old 14th February 2016, 10:15 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
As with Lobato case, you are making claims which you are not backing up, calling people names, and insulting people.
I did none of this.


ETA: In fact, I am done with you. You can't back up any of your claims with anything other than the Undisclosed bunch. Back up what you say with the evidence or the transcripts or something other than someone who is personally vested in the outcome, someone who has put their reputation on the line for a family friend. While it is perhaps honorable (at least when done without the 4-letter words Rabs is so fond of) she and her buddies are not an unbiased source.

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Old 14th February 2016, 10:17 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Just to clarify, he faked an alibi before it was known, by anybody other than the killer(s), that that she was actually dead.
Proof please.

Are you seriously talking about Don here? I hope you have some serious proof before you go calling an innocent person a murderer on a public forum.
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Old 14th February 2016, 02:09 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Just to clarify, he faked an alibi before it was known, by anybody other than the killer(s), that that she was actually dead.
Well Jay and possibly Adnan knew she was dead and Adnan tried to fake an alibi (according to Jay).
Faking an alibi may mean nothing more than you know you might be a suspect and you are intimidated by a no-snitching culture.
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Old 14th February 2016, 03:36 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by query grind View Post
Well Jay and possibly Adnan knew she was dead and Adnan tried to fake an alibi (according to Jay).
Faking an alibi may mean nothing more than you know you might be a suspect and you are intimidated by a no-snitching culture.
Actually as far as I am aware, there is no actual evidence either Andan or Jay actually knew that Hae was dead until the body was found and reported by the police.

The thing about Don is that he had a fake time sheet showing him to have worked the day of her murder. The reason why there is a problem is that the employee number was wrong and it has been confirmed by multiple Luxotica employees that even if you are working a different store, you are still working under the same employee number. It was one that Don only ever used during the week of Hae's murder.

Only store managers and above can override the system and it has to be done during the pay period (not weeks or months after the fact). The manager of the store he was suppose to have worked at when Hae was murdered was the one which his mother was the manager.

According to a former FBI and former Scotland Yard behavior analysts, Jay's testimony appear to be coached. As such, I think we can basically just throw it out. The cell phone evidence is at best questionable and more likely just worthless.

Based on all that, between Don and Adnan, Don is just as likely to have murdered Hae and perhaps even more likely.
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Old 14th February 2016, 04:36 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Actually as far as I am aware, there is no actual evidence either Andan or Jay actually knew that Hae was dead until the body was found and reported by the police.
There is this wee thing called a confession.
Quote:
According to a former FBI and former Scotland Yard behavior analysts, Jay's testimony appear to be coached. As such, I think we can basically just throw it out.
Jim Clemente is a hopeless fraud. If you want to throw out Jay's testimony in toto that is up to you.
No one seriously interested in solving this crime would do so.
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Old 14th February 2016, 04:44 PM   #210
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I will put it very simply, according to the innocence project 1/4 people later exonerated by DNA made false confessions
http://www.innocenceproject.org/caus...-or-admissions
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Old 14th February 2016, 05:02 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I will put it very simply, according to the innocence project 1/4 people later exonerated by DNA made false confessions
Fine, but this is 1/4 of quite a small number considering overall convictions. And doesn't account for what stage in the process they made false confessions (showing remorse will result in a reduced sentence) - or if these confessions were 100% false and didn't contain substantial elements of facts. It is one thing to say false confessions exist, it is another to just dismiss any confession as 100% false when it is inconvenient.

In any case if Jay's confession is false then we don't know if Don has an alibi for the murder or not, because our timing of the murder has been determined by Jay's confession.

So effectively you are using Jay's confession to show Don faked an alibi for the time of the murder, then turning around and saying Jay knows nothing about what took place
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Old 14th February 2016, 05:17 PM   #212
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Let us start with a simple reason why I think Jay's testimony is false.

He claims that he could see the body being buried because of moonlight reflected off the snow. The problem with that is simple, historic evidence is that all the snow had melted.

Let us lay that aside though. It gets worse. . . There was no friggin moon out. It did not rise until something like 4 am and I believe is was something like 3% illuminated when it did come out.

There no excuse that maybe the snow did not melt as quickly under the trees. The moon does not rise at the wrong time.

Look, there are plenty more arguments I can argue but just choosing one that I can think of - I was one who pointed out the moon to Bob Ruff so it sticks out. Astronomy is a hobby of mine.
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Old 14th February 2016, 05:33 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Let us start with a simple reason why I think Jay's testimony is false.

He claims that he could see the body being buried because of moonlight reflected off the snow. The problem with that is simple, historic evidence is that all the snow had melted.

Let us lay that aside though. It gets worse. . . There was no friggin moon out. It did not rise until something like 4 am and I believe is was something like 3% illuminated when it did come out.

There no excuse that maybe the snow did not melt as quickly under the trees. The moon does not rise at the wrong time.

Look, there are plenty more arguments I can argue but just choosing one that I can think of - I was one who pointed out the moon to Bob Ruff so it sticks out. Astronomy is a hobby of mine.
Susan Simpson had that up on her blog on the 24th January 2015.

I don't see it is particularly significant since in context Jay was just explaining that there was enough light to complete the task.
Quote:
Urick: What was the light like?

Jay: It was pretty dark but the moon was out, and I remember there was little bits of snow on the ground. So you could see a little bit. It wasn’t too bad.
You would have to do a site visit after dark on a moonless night to see if this was impossible or not. Jay remembers there was enough light to "see a bit" and assumes it was moonlight.

At best it is only very weak evidence, given over a year later, towards a false confession.
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Old 14th February 2016, 05:45 PM   #214
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It was not a year later at this point but something like a month (maybe two on the outside) when he was interrogated by the police.

Another hallmark of a false confession is when it changes based on further question. You can see that with the confusion that Jay seems to talk like they are both in one car when Adnan would have been in Hae's car. The "Trunk Pop" drifts all over the city. He changes locations of where calls are made based on reading of the cell phone evidence. The latest is that during interrogation, he claimed that the burial was at around 18:00 and now he moved it to 01:00

Other items is that he claims to have used shovels to dig the burial. Odds are very strong it was a hand burial with only debris used in the burial. Let us say that he did bring shovels, don't you think he would have commented on just how hard it was to dig up the ground as well? Edit: The soil is suppose to eb really rocky in that area and the bedrock may even be close to the surface. In addition, the ground might have also been frozen.

You might want to watch "The Confessions"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...e-confessions/
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Old 14th February 2016, 11:55 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
It was not a year later at this point but something like a month (maybe two on the outside) when he was interrogated by the police.

Another hallmark of a false confession is when it changes based on further question. You can see that with the confusion that Jay seems to talk like they are both in one car when Adnan would have been in Hae's car. The "Trunk Pop" drifts all over the city. He changes locations of where calls are made based on reading of the cell phone evidence. The latest is that during interrogation, he claimed that the burial was at around 18:00 and now he moved it to 01:00

Other items is that he claims to have used shovels to dig the burial. Odds are very strong it was a hand burial with only debris used in the burial. Let us say that he did bring shovels, don't you think he would have commented on just how hard it was to dig up the ground as well? Edit: The soil is suppose to eb really rocky in that area and the bedrock may even be close to the surface. In addition, the ground might have also been frozen.

You might want to watch "The Confessions"
Then again I might not, I am not disputing the existence of false confessions, just disputing the application here to 100% dismiss everything Jay said. You engaging in falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus.
Clearly Jay is an unreliable witness, but there is no lengthy aggressive interrogation that would account for him coming up with such a detailed, albeit unreliable, account.

Don is an unreliable witness, Jay is an unreliable witness, Adnan is an unreliable witness, therefore obviously it must have been Patrick
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Old 15th February 2016, 03:18 AM   #216
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Virtually all of the false confession literature supports that detailed unreliable confessions come from those actually doing the interrogation. To quote another case "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct."

Edit: Also back at the article I originally posted
http://www.innocenceproject.org/caus...-or-admissions

In some false confession cases, details of the crime are inadvertently communicated to a suspect by police during questioning. Later, when a suspect knows these details, the police take the knowledge as evidence of guilt.
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Old 15th February 2016, 04:43 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Virtually all of the false confession literature supports that detailed unreliable confessions come from those actually doing the interrogation. To quote another case "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct."

Edit: Also back at the article I originally posted
http://www.innocenceproject.org/caus...-or-admissions

In some false confession cases, details of the crime are inadvertently communicated to a suspect by police during questioning. Later, when a suspect knows these details, the police take the knowledge as evidence of guilt.
Again, you don't have anything suggesting it is a false confession - such as a retraction - you just assume it because otherwise you can't say Don killed Hae. This is known as confirmation bias.

However, when Jay says things like this:
Quote:
" Anything that’s going to make him innocent doesn’t involve me. Hae was dead before she got to my house."
This suggests he may well be an unreliable witness, he may have falsely implicated Adnan, but also he did see Hae's body and it suggests there may well be a narrative that exonerates Adnan, but he is confident that it won't implicate him any further than his already admitted role as a bystander. I don't see any suggestion of a 100% false confession

Did I mention Patrick already?
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Old 15th February 2016, 01:52 PM   #218
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Why do you think he saw her body? What makes you think that he stated anything which could not have simply came from the police?

As to why he has not recanted, pretty simple. He is riding a tiger and afraid to get off. Somehow he managed to get through this without any jail time. He changes his story too much and suddenly find himself in the jaws of the tiger.

His defense attorney believes that without the deal, he would have been facing murder changes himself in the county (not city) of Baltimore, which at the time tended to seek the death penalty and had a heavy conservative white population.
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Old 15th February 2016, 02:33 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by query grind View Post
Again, you don't have anything suggesting it is a false confession - such as a retraction - you just assume it because otherwise you can't say Don killed Hae. This is known as confirmation bias.

However, when Jay says things like this:

This suggests he may well be an unreliable witness, he may have falsely implicated Adnan, but also he did see Hae's body and it suggests there may well be a narrative that exonerates Adnan, but he is confident that it won't implicate him any further than his already admitted role as a bystander. I don't see any suggestion of a 100% false confession

Did I mention Patrick already?
Not to mention that on 2/27 the police show up at Jen P.'s house. She tells the police that Hae had been strangled. This tidbit was not previously public knowledge. Jen gets mad at Jay when the police want to talk to her and Jay tells her to "Send them to me."

This is how the police end up interviewing Jay. If Jay falsely confessed, why would Jen know anything about the murder at all before Jay is even interviewed?

Oh, I know. Jen was in cahoots with Don!
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Old 15th February 2016, 02:56 PM   #220
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I asked a number of people who knew nothing about about the case, coworkers and friends. I asked them if they heard a young woman had been murdered how they would guess she had been murdered, many guessed "strangled."

I don't understand why this is so special because it is a common method of murder with respect to young women. Just a year earlier, Michelle Moore-Bosko had been strangled (and stabbed) in Norfolk.

Edit: I should add that leaves aside the possibility that the police may have accidentally (being charitable) told her themselves.

Edit-2:
http://www.tdcaa.com/journal/closer-...gulation-cases
Since 2011, I have reviewed more than 1,000 strangulation cases in Travis County and tried a variety of them (from misdemeanor assault to sexual assault and capital murder) to juries. I have spoken to dozens of victims, and three things have been constant—and a fourth often makes prosecution difficult or impossible. One, when asked what she thought was going to happen during the strangulation, the victim almost always responds, “I thought I was going to die.” Two, the majority of the cases have no visible injury, or if officers documented anything, it was “slight redness” to a victim’s neck not visible in a photograph. Three, offense reports often provide very little evidence or follow-up investigation of strangulation beyond the victim reporting to the officer, “I couldn’t breathe.” And fourth, the victim who was in such fear the night of the offense has often shifted into a much different witness by the time the case gets to the courtroom.
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Old 15th February 2016, 06:29 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Why do you think he saw her body? What makes you think that he stated anything which could not have simply came from the police?
Because he said he did. And there is no evidence of police coercion.

Quote:
As to why he has not recanted, pretty simple. He is riding a tiger and afraid to get off. Somehow he managed to get through this without any jail time.
Again, if he has nothing to do with this murder then why should he be afraid of jail time?

Quote:
He changes his story too much and suddenly find himself in the jaws of the tiger.
I don't think there is any chance of Jay or anyone else (unless there is large pile of witness testimony against them) being charged with this murder now. Unless you mean the tiger is Baltimore drug gangsters - then you might have a point.

Quote:
His defense attorney believes that without the deal, he would have been facing murder changes himself in the county (not city) of Baltimore, which at the time tended to seek the death penalty and had a heavy conservative white population.
Again, the only evidence against him is his own statement made without any indications of coercion.

Since without his statement we don't know when Hae was killed - why didn't the police accuse Don of doing it after his shift finished? Don only has an alibi when you know when the murder was committed.
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Old 15th February 2016, 06:46 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by query grind View Post

Since without his statement we don't know when Hae was killed - why didn't the police accuse Don of doing it after his shift finished? Don only has an alibi when you know when the murder was committed.


Good point.
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Old 25th February 2016, 12:01 PM   #223
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An interesting follow up with regards to "knowing" that Hae was strangled. . . .According to Laura Richards, strangulation is the most common means of death of woman by men - said this in response to the Avery case not this case - so it is very likely any guess would include that.
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Old 30th June 2016, 01:57 PM   #224
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http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...630-story.html

My personal view is that you can't convince me of his innocence, but you can't convince me of his guilt either. And only one of those is needed by law.
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Old 1st July 2016, 01:47 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by cow_cat View Post
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...630-story.html

My personal view is that you can't convince me of his innocence, but you can't convince me of his guilt either. And only one of those is needed by law.
Correct. I'm certain a new trial will find reasonable doubt.
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Old 1st July 2016, 03:35 PM   #226
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What do you think the odds are of someone's cell phone bill showing two pings in a park on the exact same day that someone's ex-girlfriend goes missing and is found six weeks later buried in the park where the pings occurred? Let's say the cellphone pings may have been wrong. How unlucky must one be to have your ex-girlfriend get murdered and buried where your cell phone erroneously pings on the exact same date?

Let's add to that unluckiness that your buddy tells the cops you killed your ex-girlfriend and required help with burying her body and stashing her car and that buddy leads cops to the abandoned car, the car that the cops hired helicopters to try and find just a day or two prior.

Let's add just one more thing, although there are many. The day your ex-girlfriend goes missing right after school and ends up murdered is the same day three people hear you ask her for a ride somewhere after school.

Not guilty... I don't think so.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:23 PM   #227
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Hmm, Cell Phone evidence
http://www.economist.com/news/united...ail-two-towers

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...8ce_story.html

https://ncforensics.wordpress.com/20...ects-location/
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Old 2nd July 2016, 01:16 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Why don't you address my post? I explicitly stated if you assume it is not correct, what do you think the odds are of all that happening, including erroneous pings.

You got nothin', I assume. That's right, because golden boy did it. All you can do is throw the cell phone junk science meme at the wall. You cannot address the corroborating evidence which makes those pings more probably accurate than not.

And that was only a small part of the evidence. Hmmm.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 01:52 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
What do you think the odds are of someone's cell phone bill showing two pings in a park on the exact same day that someone's ex-girlfriend goes missing and is found six weeks later buried in the park where the pings occurred? Let's say the cellphone pings may have been wrong. How unlucky must one be to have your ex-girlfriend get murdered and buried where your cell phone erroneously pings on the exact same date?

Let's add to that unluckiness that your buddy tells the cops you killed your ex-girlfriend and required help with burying her body and stashing her car and that buddy leads cops to the abandoned car, the car that the cops hired helicopters to try and find just a day or two prior.

Let's add just one more thing, although there are many. The day your ex-girlfriend goes missing right after school and ends up murdered is the same day three people hear you ask her for a ride somewhere after school.

Not guilty... I don't think so.
Did I say he didn't do it? No.

Would I bet there is reasonable doubt found? Yes
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Old 2nd July 2016, 01:54 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
And that was only a small part of the evidence. Hmmm.
"All the other evidence". . . .Where have I heard that before?

If you have ever listened to Mark Crislis, he is a practicing Infectious Disease specialist in Portland, Oregon. He also runs Quackcast. One of the issues he brings up is when you have a lot of crap evidence, it is still crap.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 08:05 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
"All the other evidence". . . .Where have I heard that before?

If you have ever listened to Mark Crislis, he is a practicing Infectious Disease specialist in Portland, Oregon. He also runs Quackcast. One of the issues he brings up is when you have a lot of crap evidence, it is still crap.
So you can't address the other evidence then. I thought not.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 08:37 AM   #232
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I'm just an idiot that listened to a podcast, but it seems to me a new trial is terribly bad news for the prosecution.

I do agree with Ampulla that Adnan is the only reasonable candidate for the killer, but by the time all is said and done he'll have served nearly 20 years in prison, which is probably what he could have pleaded for to begin with.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 10:12 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
I'm just an idiot that listened to a podcast, but it seems to me a new trial is terribly bad news for the prosecution.

I do agree with Ampulla that Adnan is the only reasonable candidate for the killer, but by the time all is said and done he'll have served nearly 20 years in prison, which is probably what he could have pleaded for to begin with.
Look further into Don. Bob Ruff with Truth and Justice is a good source to listen to.

One thing is that if Adnan committed the murder, it did not at all resemble the fantasy created by the prosecution.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 11:14 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
I do agree with Ampulla that Adnan is the only reasonable candidate for the killer, but by the time all is said and done he'll have served nearly 20 years in prison, which is probably what he could have pleaded for to begin with.
But if he is found not-guilty on re-trial he'll probably be able to sue for wrongful conviction and get millions of dollars from the state or city or whoever convicted him.
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Old 6th July 2016, 04:29 AM   #235
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Vacated! What next?
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Old 6th July 2016, 05:12 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Why don't you address my post? I explicitly stated if you assume it is not correct, what do you think the odds are of all that happening, including erroneous pings.

You got nothin', I assume. That's right, because golden boy did it. All you can do is throw the cell phone junk science meme at the wall. You cannot address the corroborating evidence which makes those pings more probably accurate than not.

And that was only a small part of the evidence. Hmmm.
IMO he did address it. He even provided you a similar case where a conviction was vacated and the person record cleaned. With a single tower you do not pinpoint a location, you pinpoint mostly a radius area the phone is in (not even a distance). You need more than one tower to reduce to a slice area, and 3 to pinpoint a rather small location.

The problem is that from what I can read they only have one tower not two or three.

Did I read wrong ? If not then you may have misunderstood the problem.

Last edited by Aepervius; 6th July 2016 at 05:17 AM. Reason: ETA changed distance to radius as it was not clear what was meant
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Old 6th July 2016, 05:14 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
I'm just an idiot that listened to a podcast, but it seems to me a new trial is terribly bad news for the prosecution.

I do agree with Ampulla that Adnan is the only reasonable candidate for the killer, but by the time all is said and done he'll have served nearly 20 years in prison, which is probably what he could have pleaded for to begin with.
Wilds is the other suspect. It would not be the first time a male acquaintance kill a female he lust on because she refused his advance or he wants to hide a rape. Just sayin'.
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Old 6th July 2016, 08:33 AM   #238
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One thing that's weird to me is that we have the means to solve crimes like this, but we choose not to use them.
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Old 6th July 2016, 01:36 PM   #239
Desert Fox
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Wilds is the other suspect. It would not be the first time a male acquaintance kill a female he lust on because she refused his advance or he wants to hide a rape. Just sayin'.
Don is a better suspect.
1. There is evidence that Hae said that she planned to meet Don right after school.
2. It looks like his mother forged his time sheet for when the murder took place. This is supported by a number of current and former Lexotica employees who say that there are problems with it. Time between job sites (working at two stores) also seems to support that he was not working the times listed.
3. The police called to try to get in contact with him much earlier and he did not call them back until around 01:00 am. Based on some evidence on the body, that would have been soon after burying her.
I think that Bob Ruff may have additional evidence of guilt that he is keeping under wraps. Get between the lines that he thinks it supports Don being the murder as well.
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Old 6th July 2016, 02:17 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
IMO he did address it. He even provided you a similar case where a conviction was vacated and the person record cleaned. With a single tower you do not pinpoint a location, you pinpoint mostly a radius area the phone is in (not even a distance). You need more than one tower to reduce to a slice area, and 3 to pinpoint a rather small location.

The problem is that from what I can read they only have one tower not two or three.

Did I read wrong ? If not then you may have misunderstood the problem.
Yes, you read wrong. I asked him to address the other evidence.

Quote:
So you can't address the other evidence then.
The fact that 3 separate witnesses overheard him ask Hae for a ride after school (opportunity), despite the fact that he had a car.

The fact that he told the cop he did not ask Hae for a ride.

The corroborating evidence from Jenn Pusateri and NHRN Kathy.

His possessiveness of Hae as described in her diary.

That he called Hae 3 times the night before she went missing and never called her again.

Etc. etc. etc...

His response was:

Quote:
when you have a lot of crap evidence, it is still crap.
I do not consider that an answer.
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