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Tags Angelika Graswald , kayaking , murder cases , New York cases

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Old 15th May 2015, 05:24 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
On the question of the confession, I would be surprised if she were guilty and confessed. If you have what it takes to plan and execute a murder and recover yourself so much afterwards as to be happy about it, I can't see what a few hours in police custody could do to penetrate the defences. She isnt young and vulnerable, nor is she in an overly alien environment. I want to see the terms and circumstances in which she supposedly confessed and the text itself of course.
Maybe she's thick or has mental health issues.

Incidentally, how do you know she isn't vulnerable?
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Old 15th May 2015, 06:14 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
I would like to hear a recording of the putative confession.
This. No recording should mean a disputed confession is dumped.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Apparently he capsized and wasn't wearing a life jacket in freezing choppy water.
Sounds more like natural selection.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Honestly, I don't see why one would be particularly disposed to see this as a miscarriage of justice. If he drowned, it looks as if it may well have been through going out without a lifejacket in freezing water in a kayak that had a hole in it. It doesn't seem like a great stretch for her to engineer those circumstances if she put her mind to it. We'll have to see what evidence they have. For her sake, I hope she has stronger arguments than it all being down to her poor English.
That's just a tad lower than "beyond reasonable doubt". Hell it's not even a reasonable suspicion.
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Old 15th May 2015, 06:21 AM   #43
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What has reasonable doubt got to do with anything? I'm not interested in whether she did it, and haven't argued that she's guilty.
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Old 15th May 2015, 08:43 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If I understand it correctly, she watched him drown, waited 20 minutes, called 911 on her mobile and ended the call by throwing herself into the water.
The plot thickens.
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Old 15th May 2015, 08:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Maybe she's thick or has mental health issues.

Incidentally, how do you know she isn't vulnerable?
Well, not obviously vulnerable. Not young, for example. Maybd she was putty in their hands and confessed to a string of other crimes before they begged her to stop. All I'm saying is there is nothing about her AFAIK that would suggest someone incapable of withstanding the rigours of a lawful interrogation.
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Old 16th May 2015, 08:16 AM   #46
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I put almost no value to unrecorded confessions
Even recorded, they can try to twist one word.
Look at the case of James Braton and one word and one snitch convicted him.
I believe he is also innocent.
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Old 16th May 2015, 11:42 AM   #47
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I realize they frequently aren't recorded, but are we sure that it wasn't in this case? I haven't seen any positive statement one way or the other.
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Old 16th May 2015, 11:56 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
From the thread so far, she is a feisty smooth talking and very articulate young woman. I am amazed any one could have suggested her language fluency was a factor.
However, her behaviour afterwards suggests innocence not guilt. Very remniscent of Knox, Lundy, Casey Anthony*, unless double bluffing all the way.
I think 50/50 is a good call so far.

* Casey Anthony comes into orbit because her child's death was almost certainly accidental, so behaviour is difficult to parse.
I don't how you come to the side of innocence as far as her behavior goes. Going to bar singing /karaoke or similar is not something I was in the mood to do for weeks when I lost my girlfriend to cancer decades ago.

Sure people react differently but most people which I know grieve, do not go entertain themselves in such a way within a tenday.

At the very least even if you do not hold that this suggest culpability, this does not suggest innocence in any way shape or form. At most you can only say "we don't know".
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Old 16th May 2015, 11:58 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I put almost no value to unrecorded confessions
Even recorded, they can try to twist one word.
Look at the case of James Braton and one word and one snitch convicted him.
I believe he is also innocent.
Like the disputed Reid process. That with a foreigner which is not very fluent in the language could do the trick. But they would have recorded the confession in such case.

Or the police misunderstood her.

Or she did indeed confess and did the did.
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Old 16th May 2015, 12:02 PM   #50
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Is she not fluent in English?
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Old 16th May 2015, 04:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Is she not fluent in English?
I have a boss who is from Norway although she has been in the country for decades and is pretty much fluent. Still, there are little idiosyncrasies which could create confusion.
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Old 17th May 2015, 12:37 AM   #52
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It's possible for native speakers to misunderstand things as well. Having said that, I'm curious what that error was that caused her to accidentally confess to murder. Doubtless it will be a while before we find out. Anyway, I was just reacting to the "not very fluent" statement in a previous post. At the moment I don't think it is obvious that she is not very fluent.
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Old 17th May 2015, 01:56 AM   #53
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Some interesting bits and pieces in this article from the Daily Mail.

Her boat capsized and she was treated for hypothermia. She was rescued. She took 20 minutes to call 911. But wait. Why didn't the rescuers call 911? She allegedly told police she was glad when he drowned. She is a weirdo who seems very happy to be in prison etc etc. His body has not been found. I didn't know that.
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Old 17th May 2015, 02:49 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Some interesting bits and pieces in this article from the Daily Mail.

Her boat capsized and she was treated for hypothermia. She was rescued. She took 20 minutes to call 911. But wait. Why didn't the rescuers call 911? She allegedly told police she was glad when he drowned. She is a weirdo who seems very happy to be in prison etc etc. His body has not been found. I didn't know that.
I believe his body was found.
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Old 17th May 2015, 04:01 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Some interesting bits and pieces in this article from the Daily Mail.

Her boat capsized and she was treated for hypothermia. She was rescued. She took 20 minutes to call 911. But wait. Why didn't the rescuers call 911? She allegedly told police she was glad when he drowned. She is a weirdo who seems very happy to be in prison etc etc. His body has not been found. I didn't know that.
The Mail is all over the place. They have been claiming that the witnesses saw her pushing him in. Everybody else has been saying that the witnesses saw her jumping in ending her 911 call.

You seem to be making some assumptions here:
1. The rescuers were the witnesses.
2. That the rescuers weren't the emergency services.
3. That nobody apart from her called 911.
I don't recall having seen anything that makes any of this clear.

Last edited by shuttlt; 17th May 2015 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 18th May 2015, 03:14 AM   #56
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Some interesting things in this article in The Inquisitor.

Graswald didn’t call 911 until 7:40 p.m. She remained on the phone and said she could still see the struggling man. Operators lost contact with her. Apparently, she claimed to have then capsized.
However, police say at least one unnamed witness gave another account. They claim to have seen Graswald intentionally capsize her own kayak. Later, when speaking to investigators, she admitted to the inconsistency in her statement. She claimed to have done so because she wanted it to appear as if she tried to save the drowning man. She led police to the scene, where they recovered two kayaks, but the man’s body was not found.

She called 911 then capsized?

Last edited by anglolawyer; 18th May 2015 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 18th May 2015, 03:45 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's possible for native speakers to misunderstand things as well. Having said that, I'm curious what that error was that caused her to accidentally confess to murder. Doubtless it will be a while before we find out. Anyway, I was just reacting to the "not very fluent" statement in a previous post. At the moment I don't think it is obvious that she is not very fluent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_technique

read up on the reid technic it is a process where the polcie present you a story and give loaded question to ask you as if it could ahve wen this way, and when you agree they coerce out of you a confession it did go that way.

"The idea is that the person under interrogation must catch the hidden assumption and contest it to avoid the trap. "

I can see a foreigner which is not a natural in english falling in that trap easily.

Notably the original conviction where this was used fist was overturned.
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Old 18th May 2015, 03:57 AM   #58
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It looks like she did not actually confess so much as say she felt good when he died.
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Old 18th May 2015, 04:29 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
It looks like she did not actually confess so much as say she felt good when he died.
Which is unhelpful for her cause. Her American English is flawless, so regrettably this thread will probably retire without a sustainable notion of innocence.
Still, did she expect to succeed? If guilty she deserves to be on DesertFox's latest thread.
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Old 18th May 2015, 04:38 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
It looks like she did not actually confess so much as say she felt good when he died.
Probably be enough to convict her but makes one feel dirty convicting based on that.
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Old 18th May 2015, 10:01 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_technique

read up on the reid technic it is a process where the polcie present you a story and give loaded question to ask you as if it could ahve wen this way, and when you agree they coerce out of you a confession it did go that way.

"The idea is that the person under interrogation must catch the hidden assumption and contest it to avoid the trap. "

I can see a foreigner which is not a natural in english falling in that trap easily.

Notably the original conviction where this was used fist was overturned.
I'm aware of the technique. It just seems to me to be a bit speculative at this point. It could be that this happened, or maybe it didn't. There is no evidence one way or the other at this point. I haven't seen anything on whether the interview was recorded or not right now, quite possibly not, but who knows? Is the confession even the main bit of evidence that they have on her?

Last edited by shuttlt; 18th May 2015 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 18th May 2015, 10:05 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
It looks like she did not actually confess so much as say she felt good when he died.

Quote:
Mohl said. "She stated that she tampered with the victim's kayak...she knew it would contribute to his death
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/s...ring/27248067/
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Old 18th May 2015, 10:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Probably be enough to convict her but makes one feel dirty convicting based on that.
And on the basis of the as yet unnamed witnesses, surely?
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Old 18th May 2015, 10:31 AM   #64
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She looks like a blonde Nina Hagen and Nina Hagen is pretty wack, so she probably did it.
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Old 18th May 2015, 11:54 AM   #65
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Unless there is some kind of twist, I think she is going to be convicted.
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Old 18th May 2015, 12:38 PM   #66
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What doesn't make much sense is why she 'confessed' in the first place. I mean, it would surely be quite difficult to prove she intended to kill him. Why not just stick to her story it was an accident? Hopefully there's some other strong evidence which led them to charge her, not just the confession.
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Old 18th May 2015, 01:05 PM   #67
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Its going to be hard to judge this before the details of who the witnesses are and what they saw are public. At this point, I struggle to see that the police have made any obvious mistakes in the case.

If the witnesses saw what the newspapers claim, it might have seemed hard to stick to the accident story.

Last edited by shuttlt; 18th May 2015 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 18th May 2015, 03:23 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Its going to be hard to judge this before the details of who the witnesses are and what they saw are public. At this point, I struggle to see that the police have made any obvious mistakes in the case.

If the witnesses saw what the newspapers claim, it might have seemed hard to stick to the accident story.
That plus her diary. Note to self when planning my next murder - destroy the diary and all trace of those fishy google searches. Leave facebook.
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Old 19th May 2015, 02:50 AM   #69
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More here, mostly about her odd behaviour afterwards. Questions:

1 why wasn't he wearing his life jacket
2 how would she know the weather would become ideal later in the day?

The article also says its normal for East Europeans to put on a front rather than show grief.
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Old 19th May 2015, 03:50 AM   #70
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It will be certainly be interesting what concensus emerges from this thread.
One question that needs to be answered is why would two unlikely kayaking accidents happen at the same time? It is vanishingly unlikely, so her diary, the timing of the phone call, and the insurance policy scream guilt.
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Old 19th May 2015, 04:23 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It will be certainly be interesting what concensus emerges from this thread.
One question that needs to be answered is why would two unlikely kayaking accidents happen at the same time? It is vanishingly unlikely, so her diary, the timing of the phone call, and the insurance policy scream guilt.
I don't get that, Samson. The conditions were dangerously unfavourable. Why, if they were enough to capsize one boat would they not do for the other one?
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Old 19th May 2015, 04:32 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I don't get that, Samson. The conditions were dangerously unfavourable. Why, if they were enough to capsize one boat would they not do for the other one?
Good question, and you know I hope she is innocent, because that's how I roll despite the truth being our only noble concern. I hope we have an experienced kayaker on the thread to describe this probability. I am uneasy about her story.
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Old 19th May 2015, 04:49 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Good question, and you know I hope she is innocent, because that's how I roll despite the truth being our only noble concern. I hope we have an experienced kayaker on the thread to describe this probability. I am uneasy about her story.
I don't find hoping very useful and don't usually get past just wondering until a lot more info comes to light. This one does not smell right to me but we need more data. There is enough that explains it as an accident. I don't see how she got him to not wear a life jacket. It took quite a while before the cops got interested. Did the witnesses who say she pushed him in (how do you do that, actually?) come forward at once of did their memories get to work later?

Oh and if he forced her to have threesomes, who with?
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Old 19th May 2015, 05:21 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I don't find hoping very useful and don't usually get past just wondering until a lot more info comes to light. This one does not smell right to me but we need more data. There is enough that explains it as an accident. I don't see how she got him to not wear a life jacket. It took quite a while before the cops got interested. Did the witnesses who say she pushed him in (how do you do that, actually?) come forward at once of did their memories get to work later?

Oh and if he forced her to have threesomes, who with?
The problem is her capsise. Faced with a catastrophe like this, adrenaline would fuel a speedy and safe return to shore to raise the alarm. I can not buy into two kayak accidents happening like this independently.
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Old 19th May 2015, 06:47 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Good question, and you know I hope she is innocent, because that's how I roll despite the truth being our only noble concern. I hope we have an experienced kayaker on the thread to describe this probability. I am uneasy about her story.
I have kayaked once
I have canoed more extensively however and inexperienced people not being careful in bad conditions can cause a whole lot of grief.
Most of both the canoes and the one kayak I was on were unsinkable however with additional flotation built in.
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Old 19th May 2015, 07:26 AM   #76
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I, too, have kayaked or canoed (er, what's the difference) a couple of times as a novice. The first time was against the tide on a windy day on the river Tamar in Devon (or whichever county it's in when it reaches the sea). I found it pretty tough going although I was never in danger. However, in rough, cold, overcast conditions, I can imagine it being no picnic.

Since they recovered both boats they could tell us what was wrong with his.
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Old 19th May 2015, 07:53 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
1 tampering with a kayak is not a sure way of killing a person
Why is that a factor?

If Plan Kayak fails, she can try again with Plan Inline Roller Skates or Plan Explosive Golf Balls.
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Old 19th May 2015, 09:25 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Did the witnesses who say she pushed him in (how do you do that, actually?) come forward at once of did their memories get to work later?
I've only seen one Mail article say she pushed him in. Are their other news sources claiming this?
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Old 19th May 2015, 11:07 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by John Nowak View Post
Why is that a factor?

If Plan Kayak fails, she can try again with Plan Inline Roller Skates or Plan Explosive Golf Balls.
Usually, when planning to murder someone, it's because you want them dead without incurring too much risk yourself. Multiple attempts and failed attempts increase the risk of discovery. That would be my guess.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I've only seen one Mail article say she pushed him in. Are their other news sources claiming this?
I am not keeping track of who is reporting what, TBH. Just lobbing in here what I come across.
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Old 19th May 2015, 11:15 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
...Most of both the canoes and the one kayak I was on were unsinkable however with additional flotation built in.
Very much this. I wonder if his kayak didn't already have a faulty plug that was noticed but got the "nah, I'll fix it next time treatment". Also, how does an observer on the shore know when a kayak is capsized intentionally or by accident? Is there something obvious that needs to be done to capsize a kayak intentionally?
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