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19th May 2015, 11:34 AM | #81 |
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We have at least one telescope involved in the story already. We don't know that the witnesses of the capsizing were on shore. If the were on shore, we don't know how far from the action they were or what view they had. I don't see any way of making a judgement about the witnesses based on the current information.
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20th May 2015, 04:16 AM | #82 |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/ny...-say.html?_r=0
It appears she did have a life jacket, he didn't. This seems worth knowing:
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20th May 2015, 04:33 AM | #83 |
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That first link is fascinating. Wrong kayak, no life vest, no dry suit or wet suit. Maybe this was s suicide pact. Also this:
Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over back on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago. In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable. What happened that day on the river was an accident, Mr. Portale said, adding that Ms. Graswald’s comments to the police were coerced. “Vincent went out to the island in those waters, at that time of day, with no life vest and no plug and a few beers,” he said. “Vincent capsized and drowned, and it’s tragic.” What the … ? I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit. He can't not have known his plug was out. She can't have made him use the wrong kind of boat. The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes). Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak? Is there a black market in kayak plugs? |
20th May 2015, 05:54 AM | #84 |
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20th May 2015, 06:16 AM | #85 |
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But then again, the defence would say that, wouldn't they?
Forced him not to, probably not. I don't see why it would necessarily have been hard to arrange it so he wasn't wearing one. Why can't he not have known this? I don't think it necessarily has to be a sure fire method. It's her story that this is the case. |
20th May 2015, 06:31 AM | #86 |
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Originally Posted by shuttlt
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20th May 2015, 07:08 AM | #87 |
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Probably is now. The claim is that it's been there for weeks or months.
I don't know. It depends on specifics about them and their relationship. One way might be to deliberately leave it at home, then blame him for leaving it at home, and bitch and moan until he got his ass into the Kayak. It's the plug at the rear of the kayak. Not sure that I meant law specifically, or exclusively. If you want someone dead, but do it in an idle kind of way where you just arrange an accident that might or might not kill them, and then stand around watching them while they die... then that's enough for me. Maybe it's some lesser offence in law, I don't know. She might reasonably believe, if she is a killer, that they would not be able to tell that the plug was only removed a week ago. Maybe they can? |
20th May 2015, 07:21 AM | #88 |
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OK, I think I see. Don't you think this a very, very thin murder plot? She just takes the bung out of his boat and hopes for the best? He must then not notice it and they must go out on a day on which the outward journey is just fine but the homeward one is lethal, with him co-operatively not wearing a buoyancy aid or a dry suit. That seems very far-fetched to me.
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But why would you ever remove the plug? I mean other than to do the emptying thing, whereon you put it straight back. The best place to keep it is in the plug hole, obviously. Do you keep your bath plug in a safe deposit box at the bank, or on a shelf in the garage? No!!! You keep it in the *********** bath! Why would you ever keep it anywhere else? |
20th May 2015, 07:41 AM | #89 |
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Assume she did it ... What would be behind the psychology? Why admit enough to be arrested, then defending yourself?
The simple answer would be, to do it for the attention, if so? its working AND she'll probably get off. Now assuming she didn't do it? ... same result ... just lie and say you did ... then defend yourself ... same attention. |
20th May 2015, 08:40 AM | #90 |
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Not everybody is good at lying under pressure or has the presence of mind to shut the hell up. Isn't the whole point of some types of interrogation techniques that when confronted with evidence that they are lying (even when they aren't), many people will find it less stressful to confess while trying to put a sympathetic spin on things?
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20th May 2015, 10:17 AM | #91 |
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20th May 2015, 10:23 AM | #93 |
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20th May 2015, 02:28 PM | #94 |
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Like Sampson I'm 50/50, but I would just like to say :
Nailed it! Also the plug probably isn't at the apartment because it was taken off long ago and "didn't affect its buoyancy" so no one cared enough to put it back on and was lost. Perhaps some old photos of the kayak will surface? Did they go to the shore to specifically go kayaking? Were the kayak's always on his vehicle? Perhaps they went for a BBQ he imbibed a few beers and then felt like getting into the water even though he left his safety equipment at home. Still a lot of unknowns .... |
21st May 2015, 12:40 PM | #95 |
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"Apologies for quoting the mail. I really want to know now what the source of the "she wasn't on the insurance" claim is."
From Newsweek article Hobby or Homicide? How a Kayaking Disappearance Turned Into a Murder Investigation BY MAX KUTNER 5/18/15 AT 2:23 PM (the forum won't let me post a URL) "At a bail hearing on May 13, prosecutors said that based on her statements to them, they believe Graswald tampered with Viafore’s kayak and watched him drown. They also said she was the beneficiary on his life insurance policies, though her lawyer has said Viafore’s sister is the beneficiary". With regard to the Kayak plug this is from a New York Times article: Couple’s Kayak Trip on Hudson Included Mistakes, Experts Say By LISA W. FODERAROMAY 20, 2015 "Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago. In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable". |
21st May 2015, 01:10 PM | #96 |
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Seems like a pretty dumb way to plot a murder
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23rd May 2015, 08:04 AM | #97 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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23rd May 2015, 01:13 PM | #98 |
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I am a tough guy, I don't need no life vest in freezing cold waters
One item we always have to watch for is that we don't know how accurately the media and police report things actually are. |
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24th May 2015, 01:32 AM | #100 |
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24th May 2015, 01:33 AM | #101 |
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24th May 2015, 01:36 AM | #102 |
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24th May 2015, 02:18 AM | #103 |
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Thanks shuttit.
Still a lot of info behind a paywall it seems, which is a pity. Did you see the part where she said the waves were as high as a person. From my extremely limited experience, I can imagine that being very frightening and challenging. The pro-kayakers said it was not a day to be out on the water. This is looking more and more like a regular accident that some supposedly abnormal behaviour and police skulduggery have turned into something more. |
24th May 2015, 02:45 AM | #104 |
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24th May 2015, 02:57 AM | #105 |
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She certainly is talkative. I wonder if she's keeping a super secret prison diary?
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24th May 2015, 04:54 AM | #106 |
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I have kayaked against the tide and wind once and found it very hard work, augmented by the fact that I did not really have the skill to keep the boat going straight. But that was nothing like what she described.
The other funny thing about her plan is that it seems to have involved her own potential demise, since she went in the very cold water too and only had a buoyancy aid which, presumably only prevents you from sinking rather than freezing. Why haven't we heard the 911 call yet? This is the US where everything happens on live TV. In fact, there should be footage of the whole thing starting the week before |
24th May 2015, 05:09 AM | #107 |
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My one kayaking adventure was in a calm lake in Orlando Florida, nothing like that either.
I have sailed in weather something like that. Large sailboat in a powerful thunderstorm. I was pretty dumb in that I did not put my life vest on when should have. Discussed it with my sailing partner and we decided that the first thing to do when a storm approaches is to put on vests. Once the storm hit, we were too busy keeping everything safe. |
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24th May 2015, 05:49 AM | #108 |
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Probably worse is tide going one way and wind the other.
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24th May 2015, 06:24 AM | #109 |
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19th June 2015, 03:25 AM | #111 |
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More detail and opinion.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......... Viafore also lacked protective clothing such as a wetsuit or a drysuit. "I certainly would not be out on the Hudson River in 47-degree water without a dry suit on, that's asking for trouble," hypothermia expert Gordon Giesbrecht, PhD, professor of thermophysiology at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg, Canada, tells PEOPLE. According to Giesbrecht, people immediately experience a cold-shock response when they hit 47-degree water – a gasp followed by hyperventilation of rapid, shallow breathing lasting from 30 seconds to 90 seconds. Then comes cold incapacitation, when muscles and nerves get colder and strength and coordination diminishes. "Your fingers and hands become weaker within minutes," Giesbrecht says. "It would make it hard for him to hold onto the boat." http://www.people.com/article/kayak-...d-case-experts |
25th August 2015, 04:41 AM | #112 |
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Gee, you let this go to sleep? I guess everybody missed this:
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Whatever, I am calling BS on the Graswald case. She did not murder Vince Viafore. I suspect it will turn out she is just a little weird and said something the cops took awry. Think about it - she was not in control of the unpredictable weather, removing the plug would not sink the boat, she was not in control either of his decision not to wear a dry or a wet suit, or his decision to paddle while drunk. She also went into the water and might easily have died too. The only details of 'the confession' we have so far are that she said she felt glad when she knew he would not make it. That's not enough. |
25th August 2015, 04:56 AM | #113 |
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There is nothing new with regards to anything. . . .I think most of us agree that it is a garbage case (would prefer a strong case) but too many people are convicted on garbage evidence.
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25th August 2015, 04:59 AM | #114 |
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25th August 2015, 05:21 AM | #115 |
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Oh, I agree it's too soon to be asserting anything too positively so I'm taking a small gamble on this one. Of course, if there is a clear and unequivocal confession given in appropriate conditions (taped, professionally advised etc) then so be it.
Thanks for the welcome. |
25th August 2015, 06:09 AM | #116 |
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10th September 2015, 06:50 PM | #117 |
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I am crossposting this from the Amanda Knox thread - Autopsy report which might as well be a fantasy novel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/ny...cide.html?_r=0 |
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10th September 2015, 09:53 PM | #118 |
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It seems it would be a very unreliable way to plan it as a homicide, as the hole the plug closes is not nearly big enough to take on enough water. The plug looks like a red herring, and it seems possible only that she failed to help him. His blood alcohol was significant, at .066, but maybe not enough to make the difference.
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10th September 2015, 11:20 PM | #119 |
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For 'failing to help him' to amount to a crime she would need to be under a positive duty to help in the first place and, generally speaking, no such duty exists. If you see someone drowning in the canal as you walk by you can just watch if you like. There is no obligation to do anything at all.
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11th September 2015, 03:42 AM | #120 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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