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Tags Angelika Graswald , kayaking , murder cases , New York cases

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Old 19th May 2015, 11:34 AM   #81
shuttlt
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We have at least one telescope involved in the story already. We don't know that the witnesses of the capsizing were on shore. If the were on shore, we don't know how far from the action they were or what view they had. I don't see any way of making a judgement about the witnesses based on the current information.
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Old 20th May 2015, 04:16 AM   #82
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/ny...-say.html?_r=0
It appears she did have a life jacket, he didn't.

This seems worth knowing:
Quote:
“When they left Plum Point, it would have been an easy paddle to Bannerman Island,” he said. “On the way back, it would have been much harder.”
There is some information on the type of kayak used.

Also:
Quote:
Body Found in the Hudson Is Not That of Missing Kayaker: Police
http://www.people.com/article/body-f...kayaker-police
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Old 20th May 2015, 04:33 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/ny...-say.html?_r=0
It appears she did have a life jacket, he didn't.

This seems worth knowing:


There is some information on the type of kayak used.

Also:

http://www.people.com/article/body-f...kayaker-police
That first link is fascinating. Wrong kayak, no life vest, no dry suit or wet suit. Maybe this was s suicide pact. Also this:

Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over back on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.

In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable.

What happened that day on the river was an accident, Mr. Portale said, adding that Ms. Graswald’s comments to the police were coerced.

“Vincent went out to the island in those waters, at that time of day, with no life vest and no plug and a few beers,” he said. “Vincent capsized and drowned, and it’s tragic.”


What the … ?

I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit. He can't not have known his plug was out. She can't have made him use the wrong kind of boat. The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes).

Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak? Is there a black market in kayak plugs?
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Old 20th May 2015, 05:54 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
That first link is fascinating. Wrong kayak, no life vest, no dry suit or wet suit. Maybe this was s suicide pact. Also this:

Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over back on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.

In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable.

What happened that day on the river was an accident, Mr. Portale said, adding that Ms. Graswald’s comments to the police were coerced.

“Vincent went out to the island in those waters, at that time of day, with no life vest and no plug and a few beers,” he said. “Vincent capsized and drowned, and it’s tragic.”


What the … ?

I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit. He can't not have known his plug was out. She can't have made him use the wrong kind of boat. The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes).

Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak? Is there a black market in kayak plugs?
Anglo. the strange thing is I would not be surprised for the prosecution to succeed here (NZ). But to what extent do we disbelieve everything? Confession, witness testimony, insurance data, heh this case has everything......
I remain 50 /50
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Old 20th May 2015, 06:16 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.
But then again, the defence would say that, wouldn't they?

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit.
Forced him not to, probably not. I don't see why it would necessarily have been hard to arrange it so he wasn't wearing one.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
He can't not have known his plug was out.
Why can't he not have known this?

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes).
I don't think it necessarily has to be a sure fire method.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak?
It's her story that this is the case.
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Old 20th May 2015, 06:31 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by shuttlt
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.
But then again, the defence would say that, wouldn't they?
If the defence is going to make **** up, it must be unfalsifiable ****. So, is there or isn't there his kayak plug at home?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I am seriously wondering how they are going to prove this case, assuming all this is true. What exactly did she do to kill him? She can't have made him not wear a vest or not wear a dry suit.
Forced him not to, probably not. I don't see why it would necessarily have been hard to arrange it so he wasn't wearing one.
How, exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
He can't not have known his plug was out.
Why can't he not have known this?
In your article there is a picture of the plug hole, It's right in front of where he sits. He could notice while paddling or before getting in the water. IOW trying to murder him this way depends on him not noticing something right in front of his face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
The plug being out would not necessarily sink the boat anyway (says the article, which has a picture showing where the plug goes).
I don't think it necessarily has to be a sure fire method.
Do you mean in law? That is actually quite interesting, theoretically speaking. Need to think about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Why would someone own a kayak and not keep the plug in the *********** kayak?
It's her story that this is the case.
I know, but as I said above, when people tell lies there are rules and one of them is the lie should not be easily falsifiable.

Last edited by anglolawyer; 20th May 2015 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 20th May 2015, 07:08 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
If the defence is going to make **** up, it must be unfalsifiable ****. So, is there or isn't there his kayak plug at home?
Probably is now. The claim is that it's been there for weeks or months.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
How, exactly?
I don't know. It depends on specifics about them and their relationship. One way might be to deliberately leave it at home, then blame him for leaving it at home, and bitch and moan until he got his ass into the Kayak.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
In your article there is a picture of the plug hole, It's right in front of where he sits. He could notice while paddling or before getting in the water. IOW trying to murder him this way depends on him not noticing something right in front of his face.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
"The kayak, he said, had been missing a plug in its stern for some time, which did not affect its buoyancy"
http://www.smh.com.au/world/a-kayak-...13-gh0hmu.html
It's the plug at the rear of the kayak.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Do you mean in law? That is actually quite interesting, theoretically speaking. Need to think about that.
Not sure that I meant law specifically, or exclusively. If you want someone dead, but do it in an idle kind of way where you just arrange an accident that might or might not kill them, and then stand around watching them while they die... then that's enough for me. Maybe it's some lesser offence in law, I don't know.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I know, but as I said above, when people tell lies there are rules and one of them is the lie should not be easily falsifiable.
She might reasonably believe, if she is a killer, that they would not be able to tell that the plug was only removed a week ago. Maybe they can?

Last edited by shuttlt; 20th May 2015 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 20th May 2015, 07:21 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Probably is now. The claim is that it's been there for weeks or months.
OK, I think I see. Don't you think this a very, very thin murder plot? She just takes the bung out of his boat and hopes for the best? He must then not notice it and they must go out on a day on which the outward journey is just fine but the homeward one is lethal, with him co-operatively not wearing a buoyancy aid or a dry suit. That seems very far-fetched to me.

Quote:
I don't know. It depends on specifics about them and their relationship. One way might be to deliberately leave it at home, then blame him for leaving it at home, and bitch and moan until he got his ass into the Kayak.
I agree there may be stuff like that that we simply don't know. If those were the facts, I am doubtful whether they would amount to murder. There is no wrongful act (actus reus).



Quote:
It's the plug at the rear of the kayak.
OK, but even so when pushing the boat into the water it's going to be highly noticeable, perhaps also when arriving at the island and noticing a bit more water than normal in the boat.

Quote:
Not sure that I meant law specifically, or exclusively. If you want someone dead, but do it in an idle kind of way where you just arrange an accident that might or might not kill them, and then stand around watching them while they die... then that's enough for me.
Like cutting the brakes in a car. That is very proximate to the resulting death when car hits tree, but the plug thing is not so proximate. Many other intervening things need to happen. Still, it's a serviceable analogy I guess.

Quote:
She might reasonably believe, if she is a killer, that they would not be able to tell that the plug was only removed a week ago. Maybe they can?
Say she removed the plug that day even. Who would know? She also had time (after the death) to put it somewhere prominent so she could suggest that he could not have missed it by accident and just liked living close to the edge Maybe past wives/girlfriends can testify to his habits as a kayaker.

But why would you ever remove the plug? I mean other than to do the emptying thing, whereon you put it straight back. The best place to keep it is in the plug hole, obviously. Do you keep your bath plug in a safe deposit box at the bank, or on a shelf in the garage? No!!! You keep it in the *********** bath! Why would you ever keep it anywhere else?
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Old 20th May 2015, 07:41 AM   #89
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Assume she did it ... What would be behind the psychology? Why admit enough to be arrested, then defending yourself?

The simple answer would be, to do it for the attention, if so? its working AND she'll probably get off.

Now assuming she didn't do it? ... same result ... just lie and say you did ... then defend yourself ... same attention.
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Old 20th May 2015, 08:40 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Assume she did it ... What would be behind the psychology? Why admit enough to be arrested, then defending yourself?
Not everybody is good at lying under pressure or has the presence of mind to shut the hell up. Isn't the whole point of some types of interrogation techniques that when confronted with evidence that they are lying (even when they aren't), many people will find it less stressful to confess while trying to put a sympathetic spin on things?
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Old 20th May 2015, 10:17 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Not everybody is good at lying under pressure or has the presence of mind to shut the hell up. Isn't the whole point of some types of interrogation techniques that when confronted with evidence that they are lying (even when they aren't), many people will find it less stressful to confess while trying to put a sympathetic spin on things?
Quite. She had written that she wished him dead. She had danced about and performed karaoke. She may well have been induced to confess from a feeling that denial was futile. All will be much clearer when we see this confession, assuming it is not ruled inadmissible.
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Old 20th May 2015, 10:20 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I don't how you come to the side of innocence as far as her behavior goes. Going to bar singing /karaoke or similar is not something I was in the mood to do for weeks when I lost my girlfriend to cancer decades ago.

Sure people react differently but most people which I know grieve, do not go entertain themselves in such a way within a tenday.

At the very least even if you do not hold that this suggest culpability, this does not suggest innocence in any way shape or form. At most you can only say "we don't know".
Because someone acts in a way contrary to how you or those you know act, (a self selecting and probably too small a sized sample) that means they're more likely to be guilty?
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Old 20th May 2015, 10:23 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Not everybody is good at lying under pressure or has the presence of mind to shut the hell up ...
Yes agreed! ... My post may have came off as definitive ... but I really meant to say is I'm just speculating one possibility of 'getting attention' reason to confess ... most of the other theories seem plausible as well at this point.
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Old 20th May 2015, 02:28 PM   #94
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Like Sampson I'm 50/50, but I would just like to say :

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Probably is now. The claim is that it's been there for weeks or months...
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Very much this. I wonder if his kayak didn't already have a faulty plug that was noticed but got the "nah, I'll fix it next time treatment". Also, how does an observer on the shore know when a kayak is capsized intentionally or by accident? Is there something obvious that needs to be done to capsize a kayak intentionally?
Nailed it!

Also the plug probably isn't at the apartment because it was taken off long ago and "didn't affect its buoyancy" so no one cared enough to put it back on and was lost. Perhaps some old photos of the kayak will surface?

Did they go to the shore to specifically go kayaking? Were the kayak's always on his vehicle? Perhaps they went for a BBQ he imbibed a few beers and then felt like getting into the water even though he left his safety equipment at home.

Still a lot of unknowns ....
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Old 21st May 2015, 12:40 PM   #95
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"Apologies for quoting the mail. I really want to know now what the source of the "she wasn't on the insurance" claim is."

From Newsweek article Hobby or Homicide? How a Kayaking Disappearance Turned Into a Murder Investigation
BY MAX KUTNER 5/18/15 AT 2:23 PM (the forum won't let me post a URL)

"At a bail hearing on May 13, prosecutors said that based on her statements to them, they believe Graswald tampered with Viafore’s kayak and watched him drown. They also said she was the beneficiary on his life insurance policies, though her lawyer has said Viafore’s sister is the beneficiary".

With regard to the Kayak plug this is from a New York Times article: Couple’s Kayak Trip on Hudson Included Mistakes, Experts Say

By LISA W. FODERAROMAY 20, 2015

"Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.
In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable".
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Old 21st May 2015, 01:10 PM   #96
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Seems like a pretty dumb way to plot a murder
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Old 23rd May 2015, 08:04 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/ny...-say.html?_r=0
It appears she did have a life jacket, he didn't.
Why didn't he?

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Some white-water kayaks have drain plugs on the top that are used to rid the kayak of any water by flipping the boat over back on dry land. Ms. Graswald’s lawyer, Richard A. Portale, said that Mr. Viafore’s plug was in the couple’s apartment and that it had been pulled out of the kayak some time ago.

In theory, a missing plug would not cause the kayak to flood since the hole is small. In very choppy conditions, however, waves will splash directly into the cockpit, causing the kayak to ride low in the water and become unstable.

What happened that day on the river was an accident, Mr. Portale said, adding that Ms. Graswald’s comments to the police were coerced.

“Vincent went out to the island in those waters, at that time of day, with no life vest and no plug and a few beers,” he said. “Vincent capsized and drowned, and it’s tragic.”
The plug bit is interesting. Frankly I can't see how he was unaware of the lack if he was able to use the kayak at all.

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
OK, I think I see. Don't you think this a very, very thin murder plot? She just takes the bung out of his boat and hopes for the best? He must then not notice it and they must go out on a day on which the outward journey is just fine but the homeward one is lethal, with him co-operatively not wearing a buoyancy aid or a dry suit. That seems very far-fetched to me.
Yeah, very dubious.
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Old 23rd May 2015, 01:13 PM   #98
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I am a tough guy, I don't need no life vest in freezing cold waters

One item we always have to watch for is that we don't know how accurately the media and police report things actually are.
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Old 24th May 2015, 01:22 AM   #99
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They may have found his body.

It seems she has given some exclusive interviews to People magazine. Has anyone seen those?
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Old 24th May 2015, 01:32 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Why didn't he?
We don't know.

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The plug bit is interesting. Frankly I can't see how he was unaware of the lack if he was able to use the kayak at all.
Why couldn't he have been unaware of it? Why might he have been unable to use the kayak at all?
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Old 24th May 2015, 01:33 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
They may have found his body.

It seems she has given some exclusive interviews to People magazine. Has anyone seen those?
Beyond confirming his death, hard to see adding information to the conundrum.
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Old 24th May 2015, 01:36 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
They may have found his body.

It seems she has given some exclusive interviews to People magazine. Has anyone seen those?
http://www.people.com/article/kayak-...use-interviews
http://www.people.com/article/kayak-...fiances-memory
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Old 24th May 2015, 02:18 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Thanks shuttit.

Still a lot of info behind a paywall it seems, which is a pity. Did you see the part where she said the waves were as high as a person. From my extremely limited experience, I can imagine that being very frightening and challenging. The pro-kayakers said it was not a day to be out on the water. This is looking more and more like a regular accident that some supposedly abnormal behaviour and police skulduggery have turned into something more.
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Old 24th May 2015, 02:45 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Thanks shuttit.

Still a lot of info behind a paywall it seems, which is a pity. Did you see the part where she said the waves were as high as a person. From my extremely limited experience, I can imagine that being very frightening and challenging. The pro-kayakers said it was not a day to be out on the water. This is looking more and more like a regular accident that some supposedly abnormal behaviour and police skulduggery have turned into something more.
Tending to agree, but more real information on the "fickle" Hudson river conditions would help. Wind against tide or current suddenly can be catastrophic. She is 5 feet and he 6 feet plus.
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Old 24th May 2015, 02:57 AM   #105
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She certainly is talkative. I wonder if she's keeping a super secret prison diary?
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Old 24th May 2015, 04:54 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Tending to agree, but more real information on the "fickle" Hudson river conditions would help. Wind against tide or current suddenly can be catastrophic. She is 5 feet and he 6 feet plus.
I have kayaked against the tide and wind once and found it very hard work, augmented by the fact that I did not really have the skill to keep the boat going straight. But that was nothing like what she described.

The other funny thing about her plan is that it seems to have involved her own potential demise, since she went in the very cold water too and only had a buoyancy aid which, presumably only prevents you from sinking rather than freezing.

Why haven't we heard the 911 call yet? This is the US where everything happens on live TV. In fact, there should be footage of the whole thing starting the week before
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Old 24th May 2015, 05:09 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I have kayaked against the tide and wind once and found it very hard work, augmented by the fact that I did not really have the skill to keep the boat going straight. But that was nothing like what she described.

The other funny thing about her plan is that it seems to have involved her own potential demise, since she went in the very cold water too and only had a buoyancy aid which, presumably only prevents you from sinking rather than freezing.

Why haven't we heard the 911 call yet? This is the US where everything happens on live TV. In fact, there should be footage of the whole thing starting the week before
My one kayaking adventure was in a calm lake in Orlando Florida, nothing like that either.

I have sailed in weather something like that. Large sailboat in a powerful thunderstorm. I was pretty dumb in that I did not put my life vest on when should have.

Discussed it with my sailing partner and we decided that the first thing to do when a storm approaches is to put on vests. Once the storm hit, we were too busy keeping everything safe.
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Old 24th May 2015, 05:49 AM   #108
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Probably worse is tide going one way and wind the other.
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Old 24th May 2015, 06:24 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Probably worse is tide going one way and wind the other.
That was the point I meant with crazy chop. I do doubt waves as tall as people though,
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Old 24th May 2015, 06:51 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That was the point I meant with crazy chop. I do doubt waves as tall as people though,
Hey, check out the footage here. This gives an idea of the conditions on the day.
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Old 19th June 2015, 03:25 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Hey, check out the footage here. This gives an idea of the conditions on the day.
More detail and opinion.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........

Viafore also lacked protective clothing such as a wetsuit or a drysuit.

"I certainly would not be out on the Hudson River in 47-degree water without a dry suit on, that's asking for trouble," hypothermia expert Gordon Giesbrecht, PhD, professor of thermophysiology at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg, Canada, tells PEOPLE.

According to Giesbrecht, people immediately experience a cold-shock response when they hit 47-degree water – a gasp followed by hyperventilation of rapid, shallow breathing lasting from 30 seconds to 90 seconds. Then comes cold incapacitation, when muscles and nerves get colder and strength and coordination diminishes.

"Your fingers and hands become weaker within minutes," Giesbrecht says. "It would make it hard for him to hold onto the boat."

http://www.people.com/article/kayak-...d-case-experts
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Old 25th August 2015, 04:41 AM   #112
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Gee, you let this go to sleep? I guess everybody missed this:

Quote:
The search for Ian Jones, the artist and model missing since a kayak accident on Saturday, ended on Tuesday with the confirmation that the body found in the Hudson River on Monday was that of Mr. Jones. The findings of an autopsy conducted by the Dutchess County Medical Examiner were consistent with drowning, and Mr. Jones’s death is considered to be an accidental drowning with no criminal charges expected, according to a statement by Capt. John Watterson of the Dutchess County sheriff’s office. Results of toxicology tests performed during the autopsy will not be known for several weeks.

Mr. Jones, 32, had been on the river with his girlfriend, Tali Lennox, a fellow artist and model, near Staatsburg, N.Y., when their kayak overturned on Saturday morning. Ms. Lennox, 22, was pulled from the water by a passing boat on Saturday; crews had been searching the river for Mr. Jones ever since.
It's the same case but without the murder part.

Whatever, I am calling BS on the Graswald case. She did not murder Vince Viafore. I suspect it will turn out she is just a little weird and said something the cops took awry. Think about it - she was not in control of the unpredictable weather, removing the plug would not sink the boat, she was not in control either of his decision not to wear a dry or a wet suit, or his decision to paddle while drunk. She also went into the water and might easily have died too.

The only details of 'the confession' we have so far are that she said she felt glad when she knew he would not make it. That's not enough.
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Old 25th August 2015, 04:56 AM   #113
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There is nothing new with regards to anything. . . .I think most of us agree that it is a garbage case (would prefer a strong case) but too many people are convicted on garbage evidence.
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Old 25th August 2015, 04:59 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Gee, you let this go to sleep? I guess everybody missed this:


It's the same case but without the murder part.

Whatever, I am calling BS on the Graswald case. She did not murder Vince Viafore. I suspect it will turn out she is just a little weird and said something the cops took awry. Think about it - she was not in control of the unpredictable weather, removing the plug would not sink the boat, she was not in control either of his decision not to wear a dry or a wet suit, or his decision to paddle while drunk. She also went into the water and might easily have died too.

The only details of 'the confession' we have so far are that she said she felt glad when she knew he would not make it. That's not enough.
Welcome back Anglo , let us solve this.
It is not easy to keep threads rolling, but I agree this one is worthy. Black widow or lovelorn and jailed?
The pattern favours innocence, but insufficient data yet??
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Old 25th August 2015, 05:21 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Welcome back Anglo , let us solve this.
It is not easy to keep threads rolling, but I agree this one is worthy. Black widow or lovelorn and jailed?
The pattern favours innocence, but insufficient data yet??
Oh, I agree it's too soon to be asserting anything too positively so I'm taking a small gamble on this one. Of course, if there is a clear and unequivocal confession given in appropriate conditions (taped, professionally advised etc) then so be it.

Thanks for the welcome.
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Old 25th August 2015, 06:09 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Oh, I agree it's too soon to be asserting anything too positively so I'm taking a small gamble on this one. Of course, if there is a clear and unequivocal confession given in appropriate conditions (taped, professionally advised etc) then so be it.

Thanks for the welcome.
The welcome is easy, but hell, are we three months older?? damn. We won't get that back.
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Old 10th September 2015, 06:50 PM   #117
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I am crossposting this from the Amanda Knox thread - Autopsy report which might as well be a fantasy novel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/ny...cide.html?_r=0
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Old 10th September 2015, 09:53 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I am crossposting this from the Amanda Knox thread - Autopsy report which might as well be a fantasy novel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/ny...cide.html?_r=0
It seems it would be a very unreliable way to plan it as a homicide, as the hole the plug closes is not nearly big enough to take on enough water. The plug looks like a red herring, and it seems possible only that she failed to help him. His blood alcohol was significant, at .066, but maybe not enough to make the difference.
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Old 10th September 2015, 11:20 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It seems it would be a very unreliable way to plan it as a homicide, as the hole the plug closes is not nearly big enough to take on enough water. The plug looks like a red herring, and it seems possible only that she failed to help him. His blood alcohol was significant, at .066, but maybe not enough to make the difference.
For 'failing to help him' to amount to a crime she would need to be under a positive duty to help in the first place and, generally speaking, no such duty exists. If you see someone drowning in the canal as you walk by you can just watch if you like. There is no obligation to do anything at all.
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Old 11th September 2015, 03:42 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I am crossposting this from the Amanda Knox thread - Autopsy report which might as well be a fantasy novel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/ny...cide.html?_r=0
Yep that "report" is rubbish.
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