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Tags Angelika Graswald , kayaking , murder cases , New York cases

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Old 17th September 2015, 04:35 AM   #161
Maurice Ledifficile
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
This is complicated enough; To Throw Row vs. Wade into it is a Reach.
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Old 17th September 2015, 04:43 AM   #162
anglolawyer
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Originally Posted by Maurice Ledifficile View Post
This is complicated enough; To Throw Row vs. Wade into it is a Reach.
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Old 17th September 2015, 09:34 AM   #163
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I wrote this over on IA,
but I know that some folks here on The ISF do not read over there,
so ah, allow me to re-post here too, cool?


That said,
let's ah reverse this accident/murder story,
ya know look at it in a different light,
ok?

If she dies, he gets $250,000.00 dollars.
He really does not have a real job, nor much $$$$,
just volunteers to work on that island once a week.

He takes off her drainage plug, because the cat was playing with it.
Or is he trying to subtly sabotage her yak?

He also apparently unscrews and removes 1 of the locks on her paddle,
a potential problem, you can not paddle a yak without a paddle.
More subtle sabotage?

He is wearing a lifejacket. She is not though.
Where was her lifejacket at? It's MIA.
Lost at home so she could not bring it?
Forgotten in the car?

She falls into the water, he watches, and takes her paddle.
Finally calls for 911 for help after what, 20 minutes?

Some personal thoughts that he wrote before she died are found by police,
he'd like her dead.

He is seen slapping her in public, by her friends.
She wants sex with 3 pep's, he doesn't.
She wants to break it off...

She is missing, presumed dead.
He seems to be celebrating his freedom,
not really grieving like the dude whose 3rd Fiancee is missing in the water still,
right?

The story he tells the cops gives them enough suspicion to ah, ask him to come in for further question,
he does so, makes many incriminating statements in the video'd interrogation.
The cops were not even yelling at him though...

You would not be suspicious of the dude if the scenario was reversed???

Yep, I surf, paddle, I also like to date and drink alcohol.
So I'm interestd in this and have an opinion on this story.
Who knows, maybe I am wrong,
who knows maybe you innocentisti are wrong...


I think that she wanted him dead,
that $$$ was the incentive,
yakin' was the opportunity...
My 2˘,
RW

Last edited by RWVBWL; 17th September 2015 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 17th September 2015, 03:54 PM   #164
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The Paddle Swim

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
If you can't throw them something or reach them with a device then doing nothing at all is actually the best alternative unless you have formal training. Recommended by professionals. That way the drowning victims don't start stacking up.

This happens a lot more than people realize. Going into the water to try and rescue someone is incredibly dangerous. Would-be rescuers often become additional victims.

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

Quadraginta + Catsmate,
Good points + Good - Reach, Throw, Wade, Row video,
they might help someone someday.

But check this out,
it's something that many folks who kayak probably do not know of.
The Paddle Swim.

Scenerio:
You're knocked off your kayak,
gusty, strong winds, it might blow away faster that you can swim to it sometimes.

I've seen it happen before with a fisherman near shore,
he caught a fish, got yanked out, spent about 15-20 minutes following, err swimmin' to his yak
in light winds and finally got it back again. I talked about it with him afterwards...


If you are by yourself, yikes, you might be outta luck.
Unless you know of this tip...

You are knocked out of kayak
but you still have your paddle or it's nearby,
you can use your kayak paddle to swim to your kayak or back to land.
Heck, years ago I've seen a pic of someone even being towed to shore using a kayak paddle to swim with.

ETA: Cool, the article is still online, read and learn if interested, might save your life:
http://www.useakayak.org/recoveries_...ddle_swim.html

Most people can swim much faster with a kayak paddle in hand then by their arms, especially if clothed.
Even without wearing a life jacket.


Below are some video links,
watch and learn if interested in this safety tip:
8 year old boy Paddle Swims after capsize:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpqZJu7DgiI

Swim to Shore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI5P77HtIgs

Fall out, Swim back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y203mHR-E8

Self Rescue Safety Lesson:
This clip is very informative, even for people who really do not kayak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp7PGMsQqbk


If Vinny knew of this safety technique,
it puts Angelika's retrieval of his paddle in a different perspective.

He can not swim too far very fast, in cold 46° water.
His paddle could have helped save his life...
Not to float, but to swim!


Here's link from the local newspapers, the press conference is interesting:
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/s.../27938257/ink:

She "moved the paddle away from him as he was struggling to stay afloat with water temperatures in the 40 degree range, and failed to render him assistance including timely calls for help," the DA's office said in a statement.

* * *

By the way,
I've read that Angelika gave differing stories from when she was 1st rescued and then later,
when the cops asked her questions again, trying to help pinpoint the location of Vincent's body,
as she visited The Island about a week later.
Before her video'd interrogation...

Last edited by RWVBWL; 17th September 2015 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 17th September 2015, 05:43 PM   #165
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Timely Call for Help?

Originally Posted by RWVBWL
<snip>
Here's link from the local newspapers, the press conference is interesting:
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/s.../27938257/ink:

She "moved the paddle away from him as he was struggling to stay afloat with water temperatures in the 40 degree range, and failed to render him assistance including timely calls for help," the DA's office said in a statement.


By the way,
I've read that Angelika gave differing stories from when she was 1st rescued and then later,
when the cops asked her questions again,
trying to help pinpoint the location of Vincent's body,
as she visited The Island about a week later.
Before her video'd interrogation...


About those Timely Calls for Help,
this, from The New York Times:
"And though Mr. Viafore, 46, capsized around 7:15 p.m., it was not until about 7:40 that she summoned help."(*)


How long does a girl need to wait to call 911 as your Fiance
struggles in 46° water to get back into a kayak or wait for help?
Long enough for him to say I don't think I am gonna make it?

* * *

I'm also curious about these supposedly differing stories told by Miss Graswald
from when she was rescued vs the later convo with the cops.

Might 1 potential problem be this here:
"Graswald told police she tried to help her fiance but she fell out of her own kayak. She was later picked up by a boater and treated for hypothermia".(**)


But here:
"Prosecutors have also said that Ms. Graswald intentionally capsized her own kayak to make it look as though she had tried to save him. Someone with firsthand knowledge of the rescue said that members of a local boat club were alerted to the couple’s distress, and that as they approached in their work boat, they saw her throw herself into the water".(*)



Links:
(*) - The New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/27/ny...utors-say.html

(**) - CBS News
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-a...nted-him-dead/

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Old 17th September 2015, 06:31 PM   #166
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Ah, now you've found those eyewitnesses I was thinking of. They can prove (assuming the press report is accurate, which remains to be seen) that she threw herself in just as help arrived. That's pretty good if it stands up.

There may be a grey area in this case. He may have gone in as a genuine accident and she may then have decided, what with one thing and another, not only not to help him but also to make things a little more difficult for him. Murder 2 rather than murder 1.
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Old 17th September 2015, 06:52 PM   #167
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The trouble is that we know the reliability of eye witness testimony
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Old 17th September 2015, 06:56 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The trouble is that we know the reliability of eye witness testimony
Well, it all depends. You can't write it all off.
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Old 17th September 2015, 07:23 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Well, it all depends. You can't write it all off.
I am unwilling to convict based on that. . . . .Need something far more than what we seem to have.
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Old 17th September 2015, 07:34 PM   #170
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About that cell phone call to 911.

By now you'all know that I kayak abit, right?
I'd wondered how she managed to make the call in such strong winds, big waves, and strong river currents?
All of these made Vinny flip his yak and fall into the river.

But Angelika?
Well she can stop paddling, losing her speed, put aside her paddle for a minute or so,
always fun to do for any amount of time when in strong winds or big waves, dig her phone out of her dry bag, turn it on and then make a call all without getting tossed into the river herself! Without the phone getting wet and phizzzlin' out.

Man,
the girl has skill!

Here,
read how Angelika,
in a snippet of an interview with People Magazine,
describes the conditions that evening:
In another conversation, Graswald discussed for this week's issue of PEOPLE what happened on the water that Sunday evening of April 19, when, she says, the water was really choppy, with waves "as high as a person" and strong tides. "It was scary," she says. (*)


I also wondered how, after connecting with 911,
was she able to maintain her balance with the cell phone in her hand?
I mean, anyone with kayak experience, who has bobbed up+down in strong winds and big waves
knows that it would be hard to hold a kayak paddle with 1 hand and use it for stability or paddling
whilst 1st making and then talking on a call, right?


A moment ago I read that Angelika placed her cell phone between her legs!
From Angelika and People Magazine:
Crying, she recalled how, after Viafore's kayak capsized, he told her to call 911, which she says she did – trying to keep the phone dry by bracing it between her legs inside her own kayak. (*)

So ah,
it's time for some more personal experience observations, ok?
The waves are sooo big that they filled up Vinny's cockpit and sent him tumbling into the water, but Angelika, she can stop paddling, stop using her paddle for bracing and balancing herself against the wind, surf, and currents, lash her paddle down so she does not lose it, dig thru her belongings, find her phone, maybe have even had to turn it on, make the call, place it down between her surely wet legs in her own open cockpit seating area, and then grab her paddle again, to use it, at the least, to brace herself so she does not get broached by a wave and capsize herself as she converses with 911?

OK,
sure...

And how windy, rough and dangerous was it out there again?
My 2˘,
RW


(*) - Link Info:
PEOPLE reporter Diane Herbst interviewed Angelika on three separate occasions since her April 29 arrest:
http://www.people.com/article/kayak-...use-interviews

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Old 17th September 2015, 07:46 PM   #171
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And if she hadn't tried to call the refrain would be "You had a cell phone but didn't try to call for help?! What??!! Your phone might have gotten wet???!!!

So you were more worried about your phone than your fiancé. I see."

Sounds guilty to me.
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Old 17th September 2015, 07:47 PM   #172
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Hi Quadraginta,
My point was that she shoulda had her cockpit filled with water
if it was that windy and of such big waves during the time it took her to do what I wrote of above.
Of course she shoulda made the call, especially if she wants him gone!
Need that alibi, right?

I've got plenty of memories of getting drenched or bitch smacked by sideways broaching waves when I just stopped paddling for a moment to try and open up a cargo hatch to get something to eat outta my cargo hatch when paddling in strong winds and fun sized swells by myself a few miles off the coast, try it, you'll see what I mean.

I do not think the surf and wind was that strong to toss Vinny in the water by himself, with his paddle in his hand, his kayak under power, if it did not also do the same to Angelika when she stopped paddling, latched her paddle down somewhere, looked around and found her phone, made the call, do you see what I mean?

She's at the complete mercy of wind and waves, err chop then.
And all of this took some time. But she never was apparently tossed then, right?

I think that she helped Vinny initiate his ah, "accident",
pulled away, and made the call when she knew he was getting tired...
"Hold on Baby."
Pffft.

By the way, the 911 operator could easily understand Angelica's English.
Just, ya know, sayin...
My 2˘ only,
RW

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Old 17th September 2015, 08:04 PM   #173
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There's some interesting video here.
Video from The Search for Vinny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSFWva9NTVA
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Old 20th September 2015, 02:25 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I am unwilling to convict based on that. . . . .Need something far more than what we seem to have.
That is not a reasonable position.
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Old 20th September 2015, 02:31 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by RWVBWL View Post
There's some interesting video here.
Video from The Search for Vinny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSFWva9NTVA
Saw that before (may well have posted it already). Look at the boat in the distance making way through the waves. A tiddly little kayak would have serious problems IMVHO. And note the weather change he describes. Did she plan that?
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Old 20th September 2015, 02:31 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
That is not a reasonable position.
You are talking about witnesses from what appears to be some distance, when it is getting dark, and fairly good waves. You consider it unreasonable to be extremely skeptical about what these eye witnesses claim.
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Old 20th September 2015, 04:04 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
You are talking about witnesses from what appears to be some distance, when it is getting dark, and fairly good waves. You consider it unreasonable to be extremely skeptical about what these eye witnesses claim.
I thought you were making a point about eye witnesses generally. Sorry if I misunderstood.
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Old 21st September 2015, 07:33 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Saw that before (may well have posted it already). Look at the boat in the distance making way through the waves. A tiddly little kayak would have serious problems IMVHO. And note the weather change he describes. Did she plan that?

Hi Anglowlawyer,
When I watched that video,
I was surprised at the gnarly conditions shown.
Wind, + waves!
Oh my!

Just a FYI,
I am kidding!

Though I believe the vid is from the next day,
the wind ain't that strong, those baby white-caps are childs play,
at least as far as how I, experienced, like to play.

My wingman gets a kick when we are off shore + I disappear completely from view
for seconds atta time in good size swells that whitecap also, meaning they break at their crest...

I'd read that the wind was blowing at 16 miles per hour at the time:
In the early evening of April 19, Vince Viafore and fiancée Angelika Graswald started paddling home from Bannerman Island in the Hudson River back to the mainland, against the current and into 16 mile-per-hour winds.
Link: http://www.people.com/article/kayak-...d-case-experts


But I just found out it was not 16 miles per hour.

The wind was not even blowing at 10 miles an hour when the accident happened at around 7:15pm?
That's nothing for someone experienced!!!

Heck,
the kitboarders I know wouldn't even be out there then,
they like it blowin' about 15 to 20 miles per hour at the beach where I sometimes photograph them:
http://www.lasurfpix.exposuremanager...set_kiteboards


Here are the recorded wind speeds for the local area:


Hmmmm,
winds under 10 miles an hour...


Link:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/...wmo=99999&MR=1


Anyways,
I am still of the opinion that she initiated his death,
by her intentional sabotage of his gear, however slight it appears to be,
and by Angleika's apparent lack of calling for 911 help for over 20 minutes.

As that kayak instructor said,
Knock him outta his kayak, and paddle away.

What I believe she did,
while also in possession of his own paddle...



It was a Sunday evening, it had not gotten dark yet.
If she had called for help from anyone The Cornwall Yacht Club,
instead of 1st calling 911, someone, anyone coulda raced out and helped Vinny much faster...

I believe that she did not want anyone to help Vinny...
With her cell phone between her legs, she easily coulda paddled her yak in the winds,
blowing less than 10 miles an hour at the time, to have stayed very near him as they waited for help to arrive...
My 2˘ only,
RW


By the way AngloLawyer,
Nice Work on The Translation!!!

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Old 21st September 2015, 09:35 AM   #179
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About that 911 call

Assistant District Attorney Julie Mohl of the Orange County District Attorney's Office:

Mohl explained in court that on April 19, Graswald and Viafore, 46, kayaked from Plum Point, New York, to Bannerman's Island – in the Hudson River not far from West Point – at about 4:15 p.m. Two-thirds of the way back to the mainland, "the victim's kayak filled with water, causing it to capsize."

According to Mohl's statements, Viafore was holding onto the kayak and a flotation device at around 7:15 p.m. but Graswald didn't call 911 until 7:40 p.m. and at that time told the operator she could see Viafore. Graswald told investigators that her kayak capsized during the call, Mohl said, but "others say she intentionally capsized her kayak."

Graswald was rescued two minutes after her 911 call, Mohl said, but she could not tell rescuers "where he capsized or the last place where she saw him floating."

<snip>

Link:
http://www.people.com/article/angeli...kayaker-murder

* * *

25 minutes to finally put your kayak paddle down,
get your cell phone out and then call 911 for help saving your Fiancč's life?

The chick was then rescued 2 minutes later by folks from the Yacht Club?
But can not tell rescuers where she last saw Vinny?
OK...


Have a look at the Google Map again:


See the wakes coming of the recreational boats in the pic?
Now imagine a 911 call for help, where someone is in trouble out there.
It only took 1 of the boats 2 minutes to locate and reach Angelika, in all that water where she coulda been?
So ood that she could not say where Vinny was, though...

* * *

I've wondered how Angelika coulda caused Vinny to capsize,
the winds were not that strong that evening for an experienced paddler.
They were probably not paddling upstream, straight into and against the current,
they were, most likely, paddling across it,
probably on a NW heading, make that a 45° angle of paddle back to Plum Point.

Could Angelika have pushed Vinny over?
As he neared her for, say a kiss or even to grab and open a cold one,
a beer as they yaked back home from an afternoon spent on The Island and river?


What about just taking her paddle and pushing him over as he came near her?
Did he have any marks on him?

I just found this a moment ago:
The autopsy offers a grim, methodical accounting of Mr. Viafore’s body, which was recovered from the middle of the river on May 23. His face and abdomen were bloated, the report says, and marked by a mottled red and green discoloration.

Besides evidence of drowning, the only injuries noted in the report are a two-inch abrasion on the left torso and bruises on the lower chest and arm, also on the left side. The police have made no reference to a possible struggle between Mr. Viafore and Ms. Graswald, 35, while they were in their kayaks, though they have said Ms. Graswald moved his paddle out of his reach after he went in the water.

Link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/ny...cide.html?_r=0

* * *

Did Angelika push Vinny with her kayak paddle,
helping to cause him to lose balance and capsize?
And doing so left a 2 inch abrasion on his left torso?

Here is a pic of the paddle blades,
Angelika's is on the left, I believe.


Could the curved end of her paddle blade have caused a 2 inch abrasion on Vinny?
Easily...

My 2˘ only,
RW

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Old 21st September 2015, 01:32 PM   #180
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He is much bigger than her. Once she starts she must win. No going back. How could she be sure? I notice the plug has now completely disappeared from the story. Also, while noting your weather research, the fact remains that the weather was described as atrocious and dangerous by those who know the waters.

Maybe you could find the weather forecast for the day because if she planned it she must have consulted it.
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Old 21st September 2015, 02:09 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
He is much bigger than her. Once she starts she must win. No going back. How could she be sure? I notice the plug has now completely disappeared from the story. Also, while noting your weather research, the fact remains that the weather was described as atrocious and dangerous by those who know the waters.

Maybe you could find the weather forecast for the day because if she planned it she must have consulted it.
Which starts me thinking about the phone call. Maybe it took a while to figure out how to maintain stability, and recover the phone from presumably a waterproof bag.
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Old 21st September 2015, 02:49 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
He is much bigger than her. Once she starts she must win. No going back. How could she be sure?
<snip>

Hi AngloLawyer,
Yep,
Vinny definitely towers over her:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
+
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater


Man,
that girl has some arms on her, let me tell ya.
That 2nd pic linked above, her arm looks like it could make a slap sting if she smacked a guy in public
while out on the town, ya know? Sitting side by side, she sure does not look that small next to him, right?


Maybe this case we are discussing,
it was an accident,
but maybe not.

Get the dude a little buzzed, err drunk, off a Modelo beer or 2,
push him outta his kayak, grab his paddle,
and keep away from him until hypo starts to set in,
make a BS call for help, jump outta your own kayak as help arrives,
to ah, ya know, make it look real...

For some reason that hickey,
(ooops, wrong case!)
that 2 inch abrasion on Vinny's left side bothers me.
I'd like to see a photo of it, and the bruises too.


I sometimes think of this case as I'm at the beach,
Too bad that motive,
err those $250,000 seem to keep getting in the way.
Heck, I seem to recall reading that Angelika even told someone
what she was gonna do with some of the $$$$...


If folks wanna get a picture of the what relationship was like,
the Facebook page of Angelika's is still up.

I'm a sharing kinda guy,
here's links to her public video's, her cat, a few of Vinny, etc.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...6719237&type=3
+
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...6719237&type=2
+
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...6719237&type=1
+
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...6719237&type=3


Kinda gnary to see these,
read the uploading dates and/or times,
read the comments and their dates/times also,
and know that Vinny even posted some of these images too.

I guess it would be like if you were able to see some of the pix of Meredith Mercher and Miss Amanda Knox having fun together, too bad ILE had to fry the computers and lose all of those images, right?


Most all of the uploaded photo's from before Vinny death are of Angelika's cat,
it seems like only after his accident does she start posting pix of him on her page, daily.
Someone in the comments section of People also noted this...


This is gonna be an interesting case to follow and discuss,
especially because there is video of Angelika's police interrogation.

There is also a video of her cartwheel too,
https://www.facebook.com/lanzelika/v...type=3&theater
that she uploaded less than a week after "The Accident"
as Vinny's body lies submerged somewhere near where Angelika left him...

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Old 21st September 2015, 03:09 PM   #183
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Just a couple of points....

I'm not a kayaker. But I have spent a lot of time on rivers in boats doing scientific field work. So I'll contribute a couple points.

First, River currents are different than ocean currents. In fact each river (or stretch of river) can be different. My point is that the opinions of those familiar with the particular waterway carry more weight.

Second, it does not surprise me at all that she would be unable to say where she had last seen him. I have anchored to make measurements, and looked up a couple minutes later and found myself a long way downstream (dragging the anchor). When you are focused on things in the water you don't notice your movement. Especially in a wide channel. It's landmarks on shore that give you reference for your position. If you aren't looking at them, you don't know where you are.

Third, if someone goes into the water, you probably wouldn't call 911 right away. There would probably be a few minutes of "You okay?" followed by laughing at failed attempts to get back into the boat because it's likely not immediately obvious that it's really a dangerous situation. I'm assuming that after falling in, he attempted to reboard his kayak. She might not have realized he was in trouble until he lost it and was unable to reach it again. So 20 minutes doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.

There are some things she should have done at that point, like throw him her life vest, but sometimes people don't think of the obvious in times of crisis.

As for some of the other things...the missing nut on the paddle for example. Would he not have noticed that? I think I would notice if my paddle was loose and likely to fall apart.

As for her deliberately going into the water...would that look different than if she got up on her knees (or stood) in an attempt to locate him and fell in? The same scene can be interpreted differently.

The yacht club people rescued her two minutes after she went into the water. That doesn't mean they could have been there two minutes after HE went into the water. It means that at some point someone at the club saw them having trouble, ran down to his boat, started it up, untied, and went out to get them. That didn't take two minutes. They may have decided they needed to help on their way ten minutes after he went into the water and it took ten minutes to get there.

Basically, the scenario is equally plausible depending on if you start from an assumption of murder or if you start from an assumption of accident.
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Old 21st September 2015, 03:31 PM   #184
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All I can say...

Good points all around, TomB
Nice post, I'll keep them in mind as I dig further into this intriguing case.


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Which starts me thinking about the phone call. Maybe it took a while to figure out how to maintain stability, and recover the phone from presumably a waterproof bag.

Hiya Samson,
I've surfed, wearing board shorts only before,
(doing research into that 1989 kayak attack that cost Tamara McAllister her life), in 54° waters to see what would happen to me mentally, and physically, ya know, how long could I stay out in the water without getting in trouble.


1 thing I recall is that my mind was 1000% percent alert.
The other was that I lasted quite a lot longer than I thought I could.


When Vinny went into the water,
unless he was swacked in the head by a paddle or hit his head on a rock,
which does not appear to be the case here which we discuss,
the cold water would have surely woke his arse up!

He would been trying to figure out a way outta the situation.
No way he just sat in the water holding on to the kayak and the seat flotation pad and not spoken with Angelika.

No way that he would not have told Angelika to call for help immediately once he knew he could not, in a very short amount of time, figured out that he could not get back into his kayak and empty it of water and safely paddle back to shore, wet, cold, but alive.

What did Angelika say?
We kept looking at each other?
Pfffft.

Why did it take soooo long to make a phone call?


Here's another interesting tid-bit of info:
Wes Gottlock, 70, whose West Windsor, New York, home overlooks the Hudson River, says he and his wife were looking toward Bannerman's Island on the night of Viafore's disappearance. It was from that island that Graswald has told investigators the pair pushed off into the night.

"All I can say is that we did see them on the island that evening, through our telescope from our house," Gottlock tells PEOPLE.

Orange County District Attorney David Hoovler said at a Thursday news conference that Graswald’s case will be presented to a grand jury. Gottlock tells PEOPLE he was called to testify before a grand jury convened for Graswald's case on Monday.

Link:
http://www.people.com/article/murder...ve-says-friend

* * *

I wonder what this witness saw that evening thru his telescope
and told the Grand Jury?
Hmmmm....

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Old 21st September 2015, 03:35 PM   #185
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If 40 degree water, he can have as little as 15 minutes
__________________
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- - - -Bertrand Russell
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Old 21st September 2015, 04:05 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Just a couple of points....

I'm not a kayaker. But I have spent a lot of time on rivers in boats doing scientific field work. So I'll contribute a couple points.

First, River currents are different than ocean currents. In fact each river (or stretch of river) can be different. My point is that the opinions of those familiar with the particular waterway carry more weight.

Second, it does not surprise me at all that she would be unable to say where she had last seen him. I have anchored to make measurements, and looked up a couple minutes later and found myself a long way downstream (dragging the anchor). When you are focused on things in the water you don't notice your movement. Especially in a wide channel. It's landmarks on shore that give you reference for your position. If you aren't looking at them, you don't know where you are.
<snip>

Hi TomB,
I was real surprised to read of where Vinny's body was found after over a month adrift underwater.

Heck with the tide going low and heading down to sea when the "accident" occurred
I would have thought his body, if even ever found, would have been found many, many miles down river.

Not the case though:
The authorities said Mr. Viafore’s body was found on Saturday in the middle of the Hudson River, just south of Bannerman Island and near the United States Military Academy at West Point.

Sheriff Carl E. DuBois of Orange County said his deputies had been posted on the river, guarding the graduation ceremony that day at the academy, when they were flagged by boaters who spotted the body. The deputies secured the body until State Police troopers recovered it from the water.

Link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/27/ny...utors-say.html
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Old 21st September 2015, 04:43 PM   #187
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“He kept, like, watching me, and I kept watching him,”

Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
He is much bigger than her.
<snip>

Hiya AngloLawyer,
Yep, you're right, he is waay bigger than her!
Here's a link from The New York Times with a pic of them both together,
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/ny...-accident.html
another article states that Angelika is 5 feet tall and Vinny 6 feet 2 inches.

Man,
she musta been sitting on a kids seat in that pic I linked to earlier today as they shared a cold beverage together!

And she had to have been on her tippy-toes too in the 1st photo
of them goin' for a smootch that I had linked!
Fooled me...




Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Which starts me thinking about the phone call. Maybe it took a while to figure out how to maintain stability, and recover the phone from presumably a waterproof bag.

Hiya Samson,
When reading below of this TV interview with Angelika as she recounts her Fiancé's last moments,
I've gotta wonder, did Angelika make that 911 Call for HELP yet
?
Have a read yourself too, if you have a moment:

She recounted his final moments to an interviewer for News 12 Westchester on April 23.

“I saw him struggling a little bit,” she said in a soft, halting cadence. “He was trying to figure out how to paddle the waves. And then I just saw him flip, right in front of me.”

Despite his muscular build, Ms. Graswald said she was powerless to keep him from drowning.

“He kept, like, watching me, and I kept watching him,” she said. She remembered calling out: “Just hold on, just hold on!”

“He said, ‘I don’t think I’m going to make it,’ ” Ms. Graswald continued. “I was like, ‘Pff, what are you talking about, you’re going to make it, of course.”


Link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/ny...-accident.html

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Old 21st September 2015, 05:47 PM   #188
Samson
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Originally Posted by RWVBWL View Post
Hiya AngloLawyer,
Yep, you're right, he is waay bigger than her!
Here's a link from The New York Times with a pic of them both together,
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/ny...-accident.html
another article states that Angelika is 5 feet tall and Vinny 6 feet 2 inches.

Man,
she musta been sitting on a kids seat in that pic I linked to earlier today as they shared a cold beverage together!

And she had to have been on her tippy-toes too in the 1st photo
of them goin' for a smootch that I had linked!
Fooled me...







Hiya Samson,
When reading below of this TV interview with Angelika as she recounts her Fiancé's last moments,
I've gotta wonder, did Angelika make that 911 Call for HELP yet
?
Have a read yourself too, if you have a moment:

She recounted his final moments to an interviewer for News 12 Westchester on April 23.

“I saw him struggling a little bit,” she said in a soft, halting cadence. “He was trying to figure out how to paddle the waves. And then I just saw him flip, right in front of me.”

Despite his muscular build, Ms. Graswald said she was powerless to keep him from drowning.

“He kept, like, watching me, and I kept watching him,” she said. She remembered calling out: “Just hold on, just hold on!”

“He said, ‘I don’t think I’m going to make it,’ ” Ms. Graswald continued. “I was like, ‘Pff, what are you talking about, you’re going to make it, of course.”


Link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/ny...-accident.html
RWVBWL, you are making a case, and that is why these discussions are so helpful, when there are plausible alternative theories, only one of which can be right. In this case, I think we could have a half way house, where it was a genuine accident, and then Angelika froze with the realisation it was an opportunity.
But I wonder why she neglected to retain a lawyer, just like Amanda Knox.
Angelika's cartwheel is a beauty, if only we had that missing video of Amanda,s for a comparison. Why do these people with such great plans draw attention to themselves? Why not say to themselves, I think I need a lawyer? If I got one thing wrong I am toast.
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Old 21st September 2015, 07:15 PM   #189
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April Fools!

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
RWVBWL, you are making a case, and that is why these discussions are so helpful, when there are plausible alternative theories, only one of which can be right. In this case, I think we could have a half way house, where it was a genuine accident, and then Angelika froze with the realisation it was an opportunity.
But I wonder why she neglected to retain a lawyer, just like Amanda Knox.
Angelika's cartwheel is a beauty, if only we had that missing video of Amanda's for a comparison. Why do these people with such great plans draw attention to themselves? Why not say to themselves, I think I need a lawyer? If I got one thing wrong I am toast.

Greeting ya'all!
I'm learing a lot more about this case as I continue digging around.
Interesting stuff, ya might say!

Just for giggles with all you fellow Amanda Knox Cartwheel Thread participants here on The ISF,
who might also be getting interested in this intriguing case also,
have a look at a photo that photog Angelika posted onto her Instagram account,
on April Fools Day of this year, just a few weeks before Vinny is gonna have his "accident".

Classic!

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Old 21st September 2015, 07:40 PM   #190
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For anyone interested,
it seems to me that Angelika was not really using FaceBook
to post and publicly display her photographs.

Her is her Angelikas_eye, Instagram account:
https://instagram.com/angelikas_eye/

Lots of nice images in there.

There's more, different photo's, artsy photo's, here:
Photo Art by Angelika's Eye
http://www.photosight.com/ownpage.php?authorID=2609

I like her work in this site, but it seems most or all of the images were photographed years ago. But I am more curious about her life and luv of Vinny Viafore...


I wondered if Angelika and/or Vinny shot pix on the day they last spent together.
I seem to recall Vinny wanting to do some shooting of his gal on the Island.

I just found out about another witness,
the wife of the guy I found earlier, who testified in front of The Grand Jury.
Here's some more info, makes mention of photo's from that afternoon:
Graswald began volunteering three years ago in the gardens on Bannerman Island, a landmark for its crumbling, castle-like 19th-century arsenal near the river's east shore, Bannerman Castle Trust executive director Neil Caplan said.

"She's a very nice person and a hard worker," he said. "We're all stunned."
"She was there with police, and they had asked her to walk around," he said. "It seemed they may have had some suspicions about her."

Barbara Gottlock, a friend of Graswald who did volunteer work with her, told NBC 4 New York Thursday that Graswald seemed to be "happy and in love" with her fiance.

"She never said anything in my presence negative about him," she said.

Gottlock said she and her husband, whose home overlooks the water, remember seeing Graswald and Viafore just as they pushed their kayaks into the water from Bannerman's Island.

"I could see a woman and a man out there, but I couldn't make out faces," Gottlock said. "We put two and two together and figured that's her. And then she sent a few pictures from the island before she left."

Link:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...302204221.html

* * *

I'd luv to see any photographs from before they went into the water, when they did so, when they arrived on The Island, or when they left to head back to Plum Point.

Sounds like, if she was able to send pix to her friend and volunteer co-worker Barbara Gottlock, that Angelika had a smart phone, probably why it did not get frizzed out by wind waves as she finally made that 911 call for help. I'm curious about those few pix...
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Old 21st September 2015, 08:45 PM   #191
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Gosh,
being an old poster from The Innocentisi
who argued in The Amanda Knox thread, well I'm trippin' a bit being a Guilter, ya know?

But hey,
the cases are different,
and wind, water and waves are involved,
yea!

Anyways,
that said, this Guilter sure likes The Witnesses
that I've watched so far in this brutally cold° "accident",
err murder investigation.

Watch the linked video,
and Meet The Gottlock's:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...301826811.html


These folks did not come forward months or a year later,
like some of the pro-guilt "Super Witnesses" did in the Amanda Knox case.
Just sayin'...
RW
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Old 21st September 2015, 09:21 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by RWVBWL View Post
Gosh,
being an old poster from The Innocentisi
who argued in The Amanda Knox thread, well I'm trippin' a bit being a Guilter, ya know?

But hey,
the cases are different,
and wind, water and waves are involved,
yea!

Anyways,
that said, this Guilter sure likes The Witnesses
that I've watched so far in this brutally cold° "accident",
err murder investigation.

Watch the linked video,
and Meet The Gottlock's:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...301826811.html


These folks did not come forward months or a year later,
like some of the pro-guilt "Super Witnesses" did in the Amanda Knox case.
Just sayin'...
RW
Wow! Staggered by these new witnesses! Who prove .. errr, what exactly?
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Old 21st September 2015, 10:07 PM   #193
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Well,
as I ain't an expert,
I might suggest that they help prove whatever it is that occurred in the waters there?
Ya know, help with The Timeline like ah, ol' "Toto" kinda did in the AK case?

A telescope in the living room,
cool.


I luv using my Nikon 16 x 50 binoc's to watch the local waters,
and even kayakers paddlin' in strong winds and waves, sometimes nearly a mile off shore...


The witnesses saw Vinny and Angelika leave, she sent a few pix over then.
Maybe, again, I'm speculating, that they saw when the "accident" 1st started, I wonder how LE knew he fell into the water at 7:15, but Angelika did not call 911 until 7:40pm, which was obviously recorded then.

Random notes for ya, before I bail from bein' online.
His kayak was found near Plum Point.
She was spotted by a woman at The Yacht Club,
the guys on the workboat went out and got her.

From a good article by NewsWeek:
From her red kayak, she called the police, and then, she says, she wound up in the water too. At around 7:30 p.m., a woman at the Cornwall Yacht Club spotted Graswald, who was wearing a life jacket, and with two other members set out in the club’s work boat and rescued her. By the time they brought her ashore, emergency responders had arrived. Graswald told her rescuers Viafore was still missing, so the club members “turned around and went back out in the water,” says club commodore Jeff Schaak, in search for Viafore, who police later said was not wearing a life jacket. As the night dragged on, more boats joined the search. “There were helicopters and flashing lights all over Cornwall,” Seiz says.

Just after midnight, police found Viafore’s blue kayak in the Hudson near Plum Point Park, where the couple’s outing had started. But his body never turned up.
<snip>


Link:
http://www.newsweek.com/hobby-or-hom...igation-332946


The sun set at 7:39pm that night, surely it was not pitch dark then...
I'm out, have a good one!

RW
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Old 21st September 2015, 10:15 PM   #194
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There is no suggestion that the Glossips stayed watching them as they floated away.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 01:52 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
There is no suggestion that the Glossips stayed watching them as they floated away.
Whoah Gottlocks. Glossip is an American case where he is being executed in 2 weeks.
(Glossop was a character from PG Wodehouse lol)
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Old 22nd September 2015, 02:02 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Whoah Gottlocks. Glossip is an American case where he is being executed in 2 weeks.
(Glossop was a character from PG Wodehouse lol)
I knew it was wrong but couldn't be bothered to check . Have it your way, then. Glotnicks.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 08:57 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by RWVBWL View Post
Gosh,
being an old poster from The Innocentisi
who argued in The Amanda Knox thread, well I'm trippin' a bit being a Guilter, ya know?

But hey,
the cases are different,
\

Biggest differences:

1) I believe it took much longer for Graswald to crack under interrogation
2) We actually have some video of the interrogation to look at
3) In this case there isn't an actual crime

Other than that its the same ever-changing theory of the crime, focus on alleged strange behavior, etc. We even have a cartwheel.
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Old 24th September 2015, 01:25 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by RWVBWL View Post
Hi TomB,
I was real surprised to read of where Vinny's body was found after over a month adrift underwater.

Heck with the tide going low and heading down to sea when the "accident" occurred
I would have thought his body, if even ever found, would have been found many, many miles down river.

Not the case though:
The authorities said Mr. Viafore’s body was found on Saturday in the middle of the Hudson River, just south of Bannerman Island and near the United States Military Academy at West Point.

Sheriff Carl E. DuBois of Orange County said his deputies had been posted on the river, guarding the graduation ceremony that day at the academy, when they were flagged by boaters who spotted the body. The deputies secured the body until State Police troopers recovered it from the water.

Link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/27/ny...utors-say.html
This doesn't really surprise me much at all. In rivers, currents are not uniform from shore to shore or top to bottom. It's been a while since limnology class and I'm not a hydrologist, but I believe around a bend, the current will be faster on the outside of the bend than the inside and surface current is often fast while current on the bottom is slow.

For illustration:
Quote:
There are two principal types of flow in lotic systems. Laminar flow is much less common and occurs only in water that is moving very slowly. It is a smooth flow with all the water molecules moving parallel to each other at the same speed and with no mixing between them. Turbulent flow is much more common and arises as the velocity of the water increases. It is characterized by irregular, random motion, which occurs when the water molecules move in different directions and at different velocities from the average of the flow. It is an erratic and mixing progression of water, transferring frictional forces throughout the fluid and redistributing suspended particles. Turbulence explains why streams do not achieve greater velocity down a channel of even gradient, since it counteracts the accelerating forces. Channel roughness also induces turbulence and therefore reduces acceleration. Many small organisms depend on thin layers of laminar flow near the channel bed or over stones to avoid turbulence.
http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/155233/

Basically, once his body made it into one of these pockets of laminar flow, say on the bottom or the side of the channel, it's not going to go too far.
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Old 24th September 2015, 08:06 PM   #199
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Modelo

Greetings TomB,
Thanks for the explanation,
I can, bein' an experienced yaker,
dig and understand the differences from river yakin'
vs ocean yakin'.

Maybe a similar comparison would be like having a rip current
pulling hard out to sea, yet right next to it, it's all ok.

Swim sideways,
err Parallel to the Beach!

Vinny's body was found just down the way.
So how strong was the current, how high the waves???


That said though,
this Hudson River vid that Angelika posted,
from Wed. June 18, 2014, sure looks like fun!:
https://instagram.com/p/pZbuHIKIs2/

Press play on the link, you'll see some fun chop,
err waves I guess they call them back out there...

Kindergarten stuff for me,
come on, let's go play, err I mean, paddle, ok?
Yea!


You mentioned havin' your anchor dragged in a river,
I've too, on more than a few times,
but in the ocean though.

Heck,
I 1st started yakin' with an anchor system for my yak with 50 feet of 1'4" rope,
and the 1st time that system did not reach the bottom, well I went and bought 300 feet of 1/4" anchor rope.

I sometimes paddle well offshore,
over deep canyons where the botton is waaaay deeper than 300 feet,
so if I need ta take a nap, well I don't drop my regular anchor,
as it will not touch the bottom, I'll just bust out + use my parachute anchor instead.
Works great...

* * * * * *

Here's an interesting, but tragic story:
A girl and boy went out yakin' in separate kayaks,
conditions got gnarly, and both, yes, both of their kayaks capsized.
She was able to swim to safety, he did not. 1 of their paddles was recovered.
His body was recovered a few days later though:
http://www.click2houston.com/news/hf...bayou/35237778


In the case we discuss here in The ISF,
Vinny capsized, and lost his paddle,
but oddly, Angelika did not capsize. Nor did she lose her paddle.
But she was able to paddle over to, grasp and then secure Vinny's kayak paddle to her yak.
Once again, how strong was that wind, how big were the waves?

* * * * *

There was also a kayak accident that resulted in a death on The Hudson
after Vinny Viafore's "accident".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ayed-role.html

In this situation, both were drinking.

But these 2,
a guy and his gal,
were paddling a double kayak, and so when it capsized,
both went in the water, but only she survived.

Same Hudson River,
but his body was found a coupla days later.

* * * * *

I find it odd that Angelika choose to wear a life jacket the day Vinny disappeared.
Yet in every single photo I can find of her, she is never wearing a lifejacket.
Hmmmm.

Both Vinny and Angelika were drinkin beers on that Sunday afternoon.
Vinny, when found, had a BAC of 0.066.
I wonder what her BAC was that evening?

Here's their cooler from that Sunday(*):


Modelo's!

Good beer,
I've luved drinking them since I met a lil' hottie named Estelle who liked to hang out at the old surfshop in DogTown that I used to run turned me on to them, a waaay better tastin' beer that Bud, PBR or Corona, in my humble surfer opinion!

Heck,
it appears, from this photograph below,
a photo shot on a previous kayaking paddle adventure,
that even Angelika luved the taste of a Modelo while out yakin', without her lifejacket on, of course!


I find it odd that she apparently drank some of those Modelo beers too,
but did not capsize.

And I find it extremely odd for a wingman to not throw out her own lifejacket to a her Fiancé
when he 1st said he did not think he was gonna make it!

Gosh,
I sooo wonder if Angelika had her cell phone out,
and had it placed between her legs and had already made that 911 call
for help and was told that help was on the way when Vinny was sayin' he was not gonna make it!
Or did she make the call for help when she knew he had no chance?

Heck, I seem to recall reading that Vinny was tossed into the water about 2/3's of the way back to Plum Point.
The place where they had originally departed from.

But when Angelika was spotted, and rescued,
she was down near the Cornwall Yacht Club,
quite a ways down from where Vinny shoulda been, near her.
Where, IIRC, his kayak was found hours later.
Swamped and barely afloat under the surface of the water, I'd imagine.
My 2˘ only,
RW


(*) - Link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...k-murder-case/

Last edited by RWVBWL; 24th September 2015 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 24th September 2015, 09:24 PM   #200
RWVBWL
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Biggest differences:

1) I believe it took much longer for Graswald to crack under interrogation
2) We actually have some video of the interrogation to look at

Thank goodness for video interrogation(*)!




What else does Angelika and The Detective wanna talk about?


+

+

+

+



Hmmmm...
Now I ain't no Detective,
but it seems kinda odd to me, a surfer bachelor,
to see Angelika publicly postin' a pic of herself sharin' a coldie with a grinning dude on April 25th:
https://instagram.com/p/16JFqVKIq1/?...=angelikas_eye
while her Fiancé is somewhere underwater in the nearby Hudson River.


Just for fun,
Let's see what this Instagram post from angelikas_eye says, ok?:
#somethingaboutthoseelephants #pink #elephant #love #HOPE #ilovebeer

Not a FIND VINNY! in the post.
Hmmmm.


Quote:
3) In this case there isn't an actual crime

I hate to tell ya this, Whoanellie,
but a Grand Jury in The State of New York says that yes, there was a crime committed.
A witness even testified in front of this Grand Jury.
And it will, most likely, be going to trial.
Right on, give Angelika her day in Court!

Guess what,
we ain't dealing with no PM Mignini here!
You do recall that PM Migi had the MOF over his head, right?

None of that here.
These cops are the good guys!
The cops that arrested Angelika did not do so right away.
They 1st thought it was an accident. But sometimes things do not add up.
Like here in this case we discuss.

Angelika's statements from when she was pulled outta the water did not jive with what she told Detectives,
who were just trying to find Vinny's body when they hit her up on Island,
and started questioning her, what was it,
some 10 days later?.

The cops did not harass her like they did AK to solve a horrible rape and murder
that was sending foreign college students fleeing back home
and tarnishing the reputation of this quint lil' Italian town.
Nope, Nope, + Nope!

How often was Angelika asked to stop by The Questura,
err I mean the police station?
3 times? 2?, 1?
None?

Angelika was free to mourn,
err free to drink Elephant beer with grinnin' dudes,
hahahaha...


Quote:
Other than that its the same ever-changing theory of the crime,
focus on alleged strange behavior, etc. We even have a cartwheel.

Hey Whoanellie!
Don't forget Angelika's April Fools post on her Instagram:



RW


(*) - Link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...k-murder-case/

Last edited by RWVBWL; 24th September 2015 at 09:34 PM.
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