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25th October 2016, 04:24 AM | #281 |
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25th October 2016, 06:21 AM | #282 |
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With the exception of RW, every Kayaker (including instructors) has argued that the plug was not a cause of Vincent ending up in the water. We are not even sure that his kayak flooded and he did not just fall out.
The real cause of the accident is that he was either right at the line of being legal intoxicated or over it. In fact he had a whole cooler of beers found in his kayak when it was recovered. |
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25th October 2016, 06:23 AM | #283 |
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25th October 2016, 06:28 AM | #284 |
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As far as I remember, she was on the phone when she dropped the phone in the water. She did not hang up as far as I remember.
If Viafore had a bit of a brain and noticed that the drain plug was missing, he could have stuck a rag in there. The fact is that either he did not notice it or considered it not important. |
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25th October 2016, 11:14 AM | #285 |
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Great White Shark, on my 2 o'clock!
Wind, waves, swells.
I deal with them all the time when I kayak for fun or launch my kayak thru real, hard breaking waves to look for sharks near the shoreline were I, and many others too, surf. Check out my 2 o'clock: A juvenile GWS is slowly cruising the line-up. * * * * * As the case we discuss is about wind and open water swells, err, what they call waves out there on The Hudson River, let's look at a pic of a Google map of Bannerman Island, with the Iwindsurf.com wind report overlaid below it, taken from the adjacent weather station tower out there on The Hudson River right next to BI on April 19, 2015, the Sunday that Vincent Viafore lost his life. Wonder what the wind strength was? Look at the graph and times. Wonder what direction the wind was blowing from? Look at the little yellow arrows: Leaving Plum Point at 4:30pm, (this being what she told police after being rescued that evening) Vincent and Angelika were paddling into a wind, on their 2 o'clock position, blowing 15 to 18 mph, they would have been getting a little splashed on the paddle over to Bannerman Island, in my opinion. The stern of Vincent's 'Fusion 124' kayak should have been having water awash over it, just like as happens when I paddle, in windy conditions here in Los Angeles, to The Buoy. Water should have entered the open Drain-Age Plug hole, if the plug was un-screwed + removed prior to the paddle to Bannerman Island. Vincent Viafore (or Angelika) should have noticed this water inside when he landed, opened his cargo hatch, grabbed some cold Modelo beers, maybe even took out a DSLR camera from his dry gear bag to shoot pix for a sexy photo shoot, supposedly the reason they paddled over to Bannerman Island in the 1st place. However, IF the Drain-Age Plug on Viafore's 'Fusion 124' was screwed in, where he had last left it the year before, well he would not have had hardly any water inside his kayak when he arrived at Bannerman Island. Angelika, his wing-girl, well she though, would have/should have seen what the low riding stern of Vincent's kayak was doing on their original crossing, it would have been constantly awash as the kayak went up + down, up + down thru the little Hudson waves, err, wind chop out there, just like it does so with my own 'Fusion 124' kayak. This very easily could have given her the idea, that day, to sabotage his gear, make it look like an "accident". I too am now of the belief that she un-screwed the Drain-Age Plug out there on Bannerman Island, right before they started the paddle home. 15 minutes into the paddle, halfway home, wind and swell at his 8 o'clock, behind him at an angle, water constantly awash over his stern, his kayak filling with water from that open hole, Vincent might have/should have finally looked back, seen the problem, might even have tried to reach back and somehow plug the hole, lost balance, capsized. That'd be the only time I can really visualize the 'Fusion 124' kayak, which has super stable Dihedral Hull Design, suddenly flipping. Angelika is allegedly charged with unscrewing + removing his Drain-Age Plug, un-screwing + removing a locking ring on his kayak paddle, all seemingly hoping to sabotage him. If she did do so, do you think that she was then going to paddle over and help Vincent then plug the open 3/4" hole on his stern that was causing him to slowly sink? Or call 911 for help immediately? Nah, she was battling her "Angels + Demons" out there as her Fiancè, in 46° water, got cold quickly, froze, where he then drowned... My opinions only, RW |
25th October 2016, 11:29 AM | #286 |
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25th October 2016, 11:37 AM | #287 |
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Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.
Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things. Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise. |
25th October 2016, 11:49 AM | #288 |
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25th October 2016, 11:56 AM | #289 |
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I don't know for certain. That is how I took it from what I read of the witness statements. My favourite kayak has no positive bouyancy and is a current model.
ETA. It also has no drain plugs. If it was heavy enough in the water, I guess it wouldn't need to be completely submerged for you to end up in the water in a decent swell/chop. |
25th October 2016, 12:04 PM | #290 |
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25th October 2016, 12:25 PM | #291 |
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Well, I have kayaked on tidal rivers. . . . .As far as I know, RW had not.
In addition, several of the posters involved in the discussion in the Injustice Anywhere forum are very experienced kayakers. We are not the important ones though but this http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-kayak-...ry?id=33696436 “The only thing that she could’ve done, would’ve been to have him hold onto her boat, and bulldoze him to shore,” said expert kayaker Carl Ladd, who is an American Canoe Association level-five instructor. “But with water temperatures that cold, he might not have made it... She was lucky to survive as well.” “That she set out to kill him via the drain plug in my mind is ridiculous. I don’t see that as being plausible at all,” Ladd said. “If she wanted to kill him by kayak all she would have had to have done is basically capsize his boat and paddle away… [but] the kayaks they were in were not designed for the conditions that they were in.” Oops About Carl Lad http://ospreyseakayak.com/about/staff/ Carl’s knowledge of the ocean started as a young boy, fishing and sailing on the waters of coastal New England. At Prescott College he discovered the world of paddle sports, first with white water in the rivers of the desert South West, then the bliss of sea kayaking in the Sea of Cortez. He and his wife Sam co-founded Osprey Sea Kayak Adventures as a paddle sports school in 01’. Osprey’s initial focus was sea kayak education but has since expanded to include Surf kayaking and Stand Up Paddle boarding (SUP). Carl’s coaching and instruction is constantly evolving. He is an American Canoe Association L3 Surf Kayak Instructor Trainer, Level 4 open water Sea Kayak Instructor Trainer and a Level 5 Advanced Open Water Instructor. He has a patient and relaxed style of coaching and is always finding new and fun ways to transfer his knowledge of the sea and small paddle craft. Carl has lead trips all over the globe, including the Sea of Cortez, The Virgin Islands and the Exuma Islands to The Greek Islands, Portugal and Greece. He can most often be found playing in the rocks and surf off the coast of his home in Rhode Island. Carl is proud to be a team paddler for P&H Kayaks and Werner Paddles. |
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25th October 2016, 12:47 PM | #292 |
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I missed this the first time
Sorry, there were no witnesses that saw his kayak sink. It was getting dark and they do not appear to have had lights. Ms Graswald called for help and a rescue boat came out in time for her to end up in the water as well and have to rescue her. She survived because there was a rescue boat right there and because she was wearing a life vest. Even wearing a life vest, if that rescue boat was not there, I would not have given her more than a 25% chance of survival. |
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25th October 2016, 01:39 PM | #293 |
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First off, I need to say, I'm only voicing my thoughts. I hope I haven't come across as too arrogant.
According to what Carl Ladd says, the kayak wasn't suitable for the conditions it was being used in. This was a thought I'd had looking at RW's pics. I don't see how he holds firm on the bung hole issue, whilst acknowledging that we have an unsuitable craft. I imagine in those conditions that the tail would be submerged almost continuously. And bulldozing wasn't the only rescue option. Tail towing is easier on both paddler and rescuee. But again, the water temps would come into play. Strength saps quickly. But ..... there are no reports that a rescue attempt was made, are there? |
25th October 2016, 01:41 PM | #294 |
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25th October 2016, 01:59 PM | #295 |
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The whole time scale is a matter of guessing. . . .I actually don't even trust Angela herself. She was likely drinking herself, suffering from hypothermia (which would have been made worse by the drinking), and scared half out of her mind.
You have to understand that I have read dozens of articles on the subject and watched two documentaries, all along with discussing the issue with other kayakers. Trying to find exactly where I read something is sometimes hard. This is one I could find http://www.canoekayak.com/news/kayak...ds1q6J7cA3a.97 Edit: One should also note that in the exact same river, Ian Jones drowned. He was the boyfriend of Tali Lennox, daughter of Annie Lennox, and they were both on the river. Tali survived but Ian Jones did not. Tali was smart enough not to talk to the cops. Perhaps after seeing the Graswald case, her lawyers told her to just stay away from the cops. |
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25th October 2016, 02:10 PM | #296 |
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The linked blog says she was already in the water when the rescue boat got to her.
The news article isn't clear, but also says she was in the water. Nothing about her trying to stand up as it approached.
Quote:
ETA. Another article on the same site says she was recued by a nearby boater. A recreational power boat. That would make a lot more sense to me. I doubt there are rescue boats just waiting around to respond within seconds to any incident. |
25th October 2016, 02:14 PM | #297 |
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When did I write that she tried to stand up?
Is there something I missed somewhere? Edit: With respect to the rescue boat, my reading is that it was a boat from the local marina that went out to rescue them. |
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25th October 2016, 02:30 PM | #298 |
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25th October 2016, 04:38 PM | #299 |
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I don't think Samson has ever been kayaking.
I try to, as much as possible, judge these cases using skepticism. Have you ever heard of Hanlon's Razor Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor |
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25th October 2016, 05:25 PM | #300 |
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What are you talking about, Desert Fox? I think that you, friend in debate, are following toooo many pro-innocence cases to remember all the important little details in this particular case we discuss. I do not. That said, allow me to help refresh your memory, ok? Angelika texted Barbara, 1 of the gals that she co-volunteered to work with out there Bannerman Island at 7:04 pm that Sunday evening, saying they were leaving. Barbara Gottlock lives with her husband Wes right near Plum Point, where Vinny's white Jeep was parked at, where they unloaded the kayaks, launched at about 4:30pm that Sunday afternoon. These older folks were aware that Vincent + Angelika were heading home. Angelika makes no mention that the winds are out of control, the waves are crazy, the waves are too big, help us get off of here, we are scared, etc. Eerily calm, the text is something about the birds, IIRC. You can easily see Bannerman Island in the distance from their house. Check the screen grab here: Wes has a telescope in his house. From what I recall, Wes stated that he saw them and their kayaks on Bannerman Island then, but could not make out their faces some 1 +1/4 to 1 + 1/2 mile away whie looking thru his telescope. Angelika told Police that the 'accident' happened 1/2 way home, around 7:20pm. Wes G. saw some things out there on The Hudson River. He did indeed testify, from what I recall, in front of The Grand Jury, but there is now a gag order... I've wondered what a guy can see with a telescope? My little brother David, into Astronomy, just bought himself a neat telescope to look at the stars, Moon, etc. Of course RW had to have a lookie here at the beach the other day were I look for sharks. What can I see out on the beach or the open waters here of Los Angeles 3/4's to 1/2 a mile away? Plenty. Witness Wes Gottlock saw things out there on The Hudson River that evening. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but it was not pitch black dark when the 'accident' happened. What Wes Gottlock saw as a witness, well it'll be interesting to find out when Court commences. My opinion only, RW PS - I seem to recall Angelika asking for Wes to keep an eye out for Vinny as the search for his corpse went on. Chick must have known of the telescope in his living room. Used him for a witness to the 'accident' that she caused by her sabotage of Vincent's gear. After he had called off their up-coming wedding, it seems... |
25th October 2016, 05:37 PM | #301 |
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I need to let people know that RW is on my ignore list. I don't hate him but just think his posts are this crazy useless mess of garbage.
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25th October 2016, 06:09 PM | #302 |
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Greetings Shiner,
Looks like DF is mad at me again, because I do not swallow the pro-innocence bull in this particular case, even though I was accepted as ok in the old Amanda Knox case. As Desert Fox is busting out credentials, well allow me RW, to do the same, for I am the dude challenging The Experts in this case we discuss. I don't wanna come across as arrogant, a know it all, for I'm not. But that said, I'm a very experienced, old surfer. 40 years of riding waves under my belt, I've earned paychecks back in the late 1980's from riding a surfboard in real, hard breaking waves. Been in a buncha surf mags too, like Surfer Magazine, where I, RW is seen here riding a wave, doing a floater at Rat Beach in Torrance back in the '88: Nowadays, I look for sharks, sometimes even from a kayak(!) in between photographing surf. + I live and breath waves, swells, water, wind. Which is what this case is all about. I told pro-innocence folks when I 1st was asked by Anglolawyer, old CW himself, to check into this case, that I believed Angelika was guilty. Before I'd ever even had a chance to paddle the same modle of kayak as Vincent Viafore last used. They seemingly did not like this and nowadays do not like me. Bummer. For I know that anyone who paddles a kayak with a low riding stern, like my own 15 ft 'Cobra Tourer' kayak is, a kayak which I've paddled 100's of miles in all over the water of Los Angeles in, in all kinds of conditions: and can even sail it into the wind too: well a fella who has that kind of experience knows that paddling or sailing a low-riding kayak in strong, gusty winds, or paddling a low-riding kayak thru wind driven, open water white capping swells, well you just know that the stern will often be awash, all you have to do is look behind you. Yet you will notice that the cock-pit seating area does not really have a problem with crazy waves constantly crashing into it, unless you are in the shore break, dealing with real, hardbreaking waves that are surfer or body surfer could ride. So when I started do little tests paddles, videoing this happening, taking pix of it too, posting of it, well the hard workin' pro-innocence folks don't really dig it, it seems. Oh well. So I'm 1 of the main dudes arguing for Angelika Graswald's GUILT! Lock her up! I know what would happen, that did apparently indeed happen, if your gal, like Angelika, for some reason, decides to un-screw + then remove the Drain-Age Plug from your stern on a low riding kayak... See you all next time. RW |
25th October 2016, 06:45 PM | #303 |
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I understand. I can see the argument that it was so rough they both capsized separately, but there are just too many other points.
I guess it's impossible to say whether Vincent capsized because the kayak was half full of water, or for other reasons. Once it's capsized, it's full of water. Has there been much talk about the kayak experience of the pair? |
25th October 2016, 07:39 PM | #304 |
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He grew up there on The River, from what I understand.
I recall reading, and made note of it, that 1 of Vincent's friends wrote of after his death that he knew Vincent had participated in kayak paddling races in some club he was in... By the way, for anyone that is interested in the alleged murder of Vincent Viafore, who wishes to see what his model of kayak, the 'Fusion 124' looks like out on the Hudson River, how it sits in the water, paddles, etc. here is a short 1:38 minute video clip from 48 Hours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhEojnlGwDY You can see in that 48 Hours video that the kayak is pretty stable, level... My own tests show me this, but I like sharing with interested folks what happens when you paddle this same model of kayak in gusty winds, open water, choppy, white capping swell, for that was what happened when Vinny died. Angelika should have never un-screwed + removed his Drain-Age Plug from the stern of his kayak. RW |
25th October 2016, 08:13 PM | #305 |
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Thanks, RW. Pleased to meetcha. I think?
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25th October 2016, 08:29 PM | #306 |
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From what I have read was that they were inexperienced. Also, I do not believe that they had taken a safety course or read any books on kayaking. I suspect that even after just one year, I am more experienced than they were.
He apparently owned a power boat before that was repossessed but I have large sail boat experience and navy ship experience - It certainly does not help with kayaking. |
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26th October 2016, 04:17 AM | #307 |
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26th October 2016, 07:01 AM | #308 |
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Inexperienced kayakers do not check the tides before paddling. Tides? What's that, an inexperienced person might ask, right?
Angelika told police they had checked the tides before launching to Bannerman Island. Both had PFD's, Angelika's a wearable Type I, II, or III, Vincent's PFD - a Type IV, which has 18 lbs of floatation.
Originally Posted by Desert Fox
My opinion only, RW |
26th October 2016, 07:21 AM | #309 |
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Hi Samson,
I bring a watermans point of view, from a fella that kayak paddles in waves and wind. Not like the guys that they always show us on CBS or ABC News paddling in flat, calm conditions, proving, (hahaha) that a 'Fusion 124' kayak can not sink if the Drain-Age Plug is removed. Duh! So clue-less! It's flat out on the water, there are no wind waves nor swell to wash over the stern. Angelika was kind of clowning the cops out there on Bannerman Island, read the Huntley Hearing Courtroom testimony from June of 2016: You don't kayak, right officer? - as he asks her questions about what happened out there on the water, right before she was then transported by boat to Montgomery Barracks for her 5 hour interrogation session that happened over the span of 11 hours before her arrest. The cops had no clue really about what she had done to Vincent's kayak. It seems she thought they did, they were closing in on her, felt some guilt pressure, told them about the missing Drain-Age Plug, how she removed it, that locking screw too from Vincent's kayak paddle... My random thoughts only, RW |
26th October 2016, 08:14 AM | #310 |
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26th October 2016, 11:36 AM | #311 |
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His posts are scattered every which way, present stuff that just is immaterial, and basically just are not useful. I will answer other people who get to the point and present stuff in an organized manner.
Edit: I found this article http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/ny...=nyregion&_r=0 Does make a mistake describing their kayaks as white water kayaks not rec kayaks however. |
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26th October 2016, 11:39 AM | #312 |
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I agree. I have found his posts quite enlightening. The only one I have considered putting on mute is Samson because he simply cannot stay on topic and leave other cases out of anything.
Back on topic. I am kayaker myself though I am no expert. RW has proven that a low riding hull with a missing plug will quite easily sink under the right circumstances. Mine runs the same except that my drain is at the front, in my line of view. But even at that, I don't know that I would notice it missing right away. Given the events, my theory runs that she didn't premeditate it happening, I think she saw the opportunity and took advantage. That plug had to have been removed at the island. He would surely have taken on water on the way out otherwise. |
26th October 2016, 12:00 PM | #313 |
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I have trouble even answering to because, to be blunt, I cannot understand how anybody would make the argument that you just made. If you ever have been outside at dusk anywhere, not even just on the water, you should know that visibility is sharply reduced. In some ways it can actually be worse because you cannot have your full night vision either.
I have never paddled in the dusk but have sailed in the dusk (and at night). I also was in the navy and had lookout watches during all times of the day including dusk. I also work at piers and often observe the sun coming up. Often it is hard to see a decent sized fishing boat some distance away in the water. Sunrise and Sunset can be some of the most beautiful times of the day but visibility is limited. Kayaks are tiny things as is and hard to often see. There are multiple incidents per year where power boats run over kayaks in the water, not keeping a careful watch. As I type this, I can look out onto to James River. If there was a kayak in the middle of the river, I would have trouble seeing it (1500 with sunset being at 1814) The trouble is that RW should know everything I just wrote here so I have to consider that he is being disingenuous. |
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26th October 2016, 12:09 PM | #314 |
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26th October 2016, 12:14 PM | #315 |
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26th October 2016, 12:34 PM | #316 |
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I believe I have provided at least three in various posts.
ABC had their expert, CBS had their expert, and the newspaper had a third expert. Edit: One one my big arguments is that even if the lack of the plug did contribute to him ending up in the water, she is not going to know that. If experts don't think it was a major contributing factor, I don't think that she could know that. Consider she was also drinking while kayaking. Personally I don't think it was a major factor and question if the kayak even flipped due to flooding but instead just a bad stroke. With how wide his cockpit was and how he was right on the limit with regard to intoxication, I can easily see him as somehow either tipping or simply falling out of his kayak. I should add that there is a good reason for my argument here. If Ms Graswald is convicted, it will decrease kayak safety not increase it. You need to be responsible for both yourself and your own boat. You don't go out in 46 degree water without a wet suit or dry suit. You don't go out at all without a life vest. Pay attention to the weather. You should not drink while kayaking - and it is against the law where if you are inebriated even while in a self powered craft, it si considered the same as if you are driving a car. If you are not trained in kayak rescue techniques, the best thing you can do is save yourself. |
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26th October 2016, 03:52 PM | #317 |
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I think you're being a little narrow in your focus. Dusk is different on every river.
This whole incident happened between 1920-1940 hrs. Sunset @1930. It may well have been dark at 1940 when Angelika made the 911 call, but it could only just be dark. I've lived and played on rivers and bays my whole life. I was a surfer too before I decided that the sharks have more right than I do out there. I've been in and on the water at dusk many times. I just don't agree that the visibility would be nil. Someone at an elevated position, with the last rays of sun shining from behind and down onto to the water, and with the aid of a telescope ..... sounds like he knows how to use the 'scope too. I can see the possibility that some things were witnessed. I just don't discount the possibility that easily. An easy way to get an indication would be a webcam in the area. I couldn't find one in my searching just now. Doing a little reading, I came across this seemingly innocent, yet telling blog about the current at Bannerman's Island.
Quote:
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26th October 2016, 04:07 PM | #318 |
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I have discussed many cases on different threads and message boards.
You must be unaware of the adage that those who do not learn the mistakes of history are bound to repeat them. And the more cases I research, the more the fabric coheres. I never introduce another case to a thread without thinking carefully first. It is simply not possible to understand the complex mechanism underlying the narrative from questioning a witness, to charging that witness, persuading the relatives of the victim that witness is guilty, getting the prosecutor on side to fabricate a case to the jury, achieving a guilty verdict, jailing the witness, appealing the verdict and the sentence and so on without observing how often the pattern is repeated. This process can take decades, when a proper analysis of the crime or in this case accident scene will furnish all the answers. Here we seem to have reduced the case by concensus to its simplest ingredient. When was the plug removed by Angelika? |
26th October 2016, 04:24 PM | #319 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 6,147
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - - - -Bertrand Russell |
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26th October 2016, 04:48 PM | #320 | |||
Motor Mouth
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,796
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I had assumed that the Hudson Valley has hills to the west, yes. But after consulting a topographic map of the area ....... I'm not seeing any significant elevation due west of Bannerman's Island. The river ia over a mile across there.The hills that I do see appear to be 30 miles to the west. Yes there is elevated ground to the East, South, and less so to the North, but the ground rises very gradually to the west until we get to the Wurtsboro Ridge.
ETA: this video seems to confirm that.
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