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Tags Angelika Graswald , kayaking , murder cases , New York cases

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Old 25th October 2016, 04:24 AM   #281
Samson
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I'm not sure if it was explained thoroughly here or not. So I'll have a go.

As RW showed, the kayak takes on a fair amount of water each time the back end goes underwater. The paddle was over a mile, which is a big paddle across current. . Not for an amatuer.

It was the melt, which means the river was running. It was windy. Any wind when you're kayaking is a PITA, unless it's on your back, and that's not very likely when you're crossing a river. Winds tend to gust along rivers
Lots of chop is a given. The stern submerging every few seconds as you're paddling across the current, hence chop ...... .

If the plug was removed before they paddled across, by the time they got to the island the kayak would have been noticably heavy. You would be aware that it was full of water and sort it out before returning.

It's my opinion that the plug was removed while they were on the island. Always was.
I haven't seen anything to change my opinion yet. I'm not even sure if the prosecution have suggested it because I haven't followed it. I made up my mind from a few news articles last year when it happened.

I've never been a life jacket wearer, but it just recently became law here. Apparently it's law in NY, so I agree with all that he takes some credit here too. I think if I was going to paddle a big icy river like that I'd wear one though. We don't really have icy rivers in Oz.
No one would defend her if she unscrewed the plug on the island, that is a sufficient but also necessary condition to pin her with murder 2.

No one has ever suggested it of course.
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Old 25th October 2016, 06:21 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
3. I disconnect the brake lines on your car. You never check, and drive off down the freeway and die in a horrible accident.

Same deal. I am causally detached from the events...
With the exception of RW, every Kayaker (including instructors) has argued that the plug was not a cause of Vincent ending up in the water. We are not even sure that his kayak flooded and he did not just fall out.

The real cause of the accident is that he was either right at the line of being legal intoxicated or over it. In fact he had a whole cooler of beers found in his kayak when it was recovered.
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Old 25th October 2016, 06:23 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Do you discount the witness reports that she paddled away from him as he drowned?

Or the reports, again from witnesses, that she waited 20 minutes before calling 911, and then appeared to deliberately capsize her own craft ?
This is all basically BS. . . .That 20 minutes was something that the prosecutor presented basically unsupported. There probably was a short delay when neither realized how serious the situation was.
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Old 25th October 2016, 06:28 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
You think the rescuers turned up as she hung up from the 911 call? Why?
As far as I remember, she was on the phone when she dropped the phone in the water. She did not hang up as far as I remember.

Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Do you not imagine that spare parts are available for kayaks?
If Viafore had a bit of a brain and noticed that the drain plug was missing, he could have stuck a rag in there. The fact is that either he did not notice it or considered it not important.
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Old 25th October 2016, 11:14 AM   #285
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Great White Shark, on my 2 o'clock!

Wind, waves, swells.
I deal with them all the time when I kayak for fun or launch my kayak thru real, hard breaking waves
to look for sharks near the shoreline were I, and many others too, surf.

Check out my 2 o'clock:

A juvenile GWS is slowly cruising the line-up.

* * * * *

As the case we discuss is about wind and open water swells, err, what they call waves out there on The Hudson River, let's look at a pic of a Google map of Bannerman Island, with the Iwindsurf.com wind report overlaid below it, taken from the adjacent weather station tower out there on The Hudson River right next to BI on April 19, 2015, the Sunday that Vincent Viafore lost his life.

Wonder what the wind strength was? Look at the graph and times.
Wonder what direction the wind was blowing from? Look at the little yellow arrows:



Leaving Plum Point at 4:30pm,
(this being what she told police after being rescued that evening)
Vincent and Angelika were paddling into a wind, on their 2 o'clock position, blowing 15 to 18 mph,
they would have been getting a little splashed on the paddle over to Bannerman Island, in my opinion.

The stern of Vincent's 'Fusion 124' kayak should have been having water awash over it, just like as happens when I paddle, in windy conditions here in Los Angeles, to The Buoy. Water should have entered the open Drain-Age Plug hole, if the plug was un-screwed + removed prior to the paddle to Bannerman Island.

Vincent Viafore (or Angelika) should have noticed this water inside when he landed, opened his cargo hatch, grabbed some cold Modelo beers, maybe even took out a DSLR camera from his dry gear bag to shoot pix for a sexy photo shoot, supposedly the reason they paddled over to Bannerman Island in the 1st place.

However,
IF the Drain-Age Plug on Viafore's 'Fusion 124' was screwed in, where he had last left it the year before, well he would not have had hardly any water inside his kayak when he arrived at Bannerman Island.

Angelika,
his wing-girl, well she though, would have/should have seen what the low riding stern of Vincent's kayak was doing on their original crossing, it would have been constantly awash as the kayak went up + down, up + down thru the little Hudson waves, err, wind chop out there, just like it does so with my own 'Fusion 124' kayak. This very easily could have given her the idea, that day, to sabotage his gear, make it look like an "accident".

I too am now of the belief that she un-screwed the Drain-Age Plug out there on Bannerman Island, right before they started the paddle home.

15 minutes into the paddle, halfway home, wind and swell at his 8 o'clock, behind him at an angle, water constantly awash over his stern, his kayak filling with water from that open hole, Vincent might have/should have finally looked back, seen the problem, might even have tried to reach back and somehow plug the hole, lost balance, capsized. That'd be the only time I can really visualize the 'Fusion 124' kayak, which has super stable Dihedral Hull Design, suddenly flipping.

Angelika is allegedly charged with unscrewing + removing his Drain-Age Plug, un-screwing + removing a locking ring on his kayak paddle, all seemingly hoping to sabotage him. If she did do so, do you think that she was then going to paddle over and help Vincent then plug the open 3/4" hole on his stern that was causing him to slowly sink? Or call 911 for help immediately?

Nah, she was battling her "Angels + Demons" out there
as her Fiancè, in 46° water, got cold quickly, froze, where he then drowned...
My opinions only,
RW

Last edited by RWVBWL; 25th October 2016 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 25th October 2016, 11:29 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
This is all basically BS. . . .That 20 minutes was something that the prosecutor presented basically unsupported. There probably was a short delay when neither realized how serious the situation was.
BS, basically, probably. I see.
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Old 25th October 2016, 11:37 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
With the exception of RW, every Kayaker (including instructors) has argued that the plug was not a cause of Vincent ending up in the water. We are not even sure that his kayak flooded and he did not just fall out.

The real cause of the accident is that he was either right at the line of being legal intoxicated or over it. In fact he had a whole cooler of beers found in his kayak when it was recovered.
Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.

Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things.
Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise.
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Old 25th October 2016, 11:49 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.

Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things.
Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise.

Did the kayak actually sink? As in ended up on the bottom of the river?

Isn't that a bit unusual for modern kayaks, even ones with their drain plugs out?
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Old 25th October 2016, 11:56 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Did the kayak actually sink? As in ended up on the bottom of the river?

Isn't that a bit unusual for modern kayaks, even ones with their drain plugs out?
I don't know for certain. That is how I took it from what I read of the witness statements. My favourite kayak has no positive bouyancy and is a current model.
ETA. It also has no drain plugs.


If it was heavy enough in the water, I guess it wouldn't need to be completely submerged for you to end up in the water in a decent swell/chop.

Last edited by Shiner; 25th October 2016 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 25th October 2016, 12:04 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I don't know for certain. That is how I took it from what I read of the witness statements. My favourite kayak has no positive bouyancy and is a current model.
ETA. It also has no drain plugs.


If it was heavy enough in the water, I guess it wouldn't need to be completely submerged for you to end up in the water in a decent swell/chop.

Sure, but you can still hang on to something that's completely awash.

If it goes to the bottom, not so much.
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Old 25th October 2016, 12:25 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.

Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things.
Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise.
Well, I have kayaked on tidal rivers. . . . .As far as I know, RW had not.
In addition, several of the posters involved in the discussion in the Injustice Anywhere forum are very experienced kayakers.

We are not the important ones though but this
http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-kayak-...ry?id=33696436

“The only thing that she could’ve done, would’ve been to have him hold onto her boat, and bulldoze him to shore,” said expert kayaker Carl Ladd, who is an American Canoe Association level-five instructor. “But with water temperatures that cold, he might not have made it... She was lucky to survive as well.”

“That she set out to kill him via the drain plug in my mind is ridiculous. I don’t see that as being plausible at all,” Ladd said. “If she wanted to kill him by kayak all she would have had to have done is basically capsize his boat and paddle away… [but] the kayaks they were in were not designed for the conditions that they were in.”


Oops
About Carl Lad
http://ospreyseakayak.com/about/staff/
Carl’s knowledge of the ocean started as a young boy, fishing and sailing on the waters of coastal New England. At Prescott College he discovered the world of paddle sports, first with white water in the rivers of the desert South West, then the bliss of sea kayaking in the Sea of Cortez. He and his wife Sam co-founded Osprey Sea Kayak Adventures as a paddle sports school in 01’. Osprey’s initial focus was sea kayak education but has since expanded to include Surf kayaking and Stand Up Paddle boarding (SUP). Carl’s coaching and instruction is constantly evolving. He is an American Canoe Association L3 Surf Kayak Instructor Trainer, Level 4 open water Sea Kayak Instructor Trainer and a Level 5 Advanced Open Water Instructor. He has a patient and relaxed style of coaching and is always finding new and fun ways to transfer his knowledge of the sea and small paddle craft. Carl has lead trips all over the globe, including the Sea of Cortez, The Virgin Islands and the Exuma Islands to The Greek Islands, Portugal and Greece. He can most often be found playing in the rocks and surf off the coast of his home in Rhode Island. Carl is proud to be a team paddler for P&H Kayaks and Werner Paddles.
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Old 25th October 2016, 12:47 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Do you mean in this thread? You've claimed to be a kayaker haven't you? But I get the feeling your experience is limited. I saw one other who appeared to know his stuff and he seemed to be on the fence.

Of course if we call the witness accounts "BS", then we can assume all sorts of things.
Afaik, wifnesses watched his kayak sink. I'm not seeing the point of suggesting otherwise.
I missed this the first time

Sorry, there were no witnesses that saw his kayak sink. It was getting dark and they do not appear to have had lights. Ms Graswald called for help and a rescue boat came out in time for her to end up in the water as well and have to rescue her.

She survived because there was a rescue boat right there and because she was wearing a life vest. Even wearing a life vest, if that rescue boat was not there, I would not have given her more than a 25% chance of survival.
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Old 25th October 2016, 01:39 PM   #293
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First off, I need to say, I'm only voicing my thoughts. I hope I haven't come across as too arrogant.

According to what Carl Ladd says, the kayak wasn't suitable for the conditions it was being used in. This was a thought I'd had looking at RW's pics. I don't see how he holds firm on the bung hole issue, whilst acknowledging that we have an unsuitable craft. I imagine in those conditions that the tail would be submerged almost continuously. And bulldozing wasn't the only rescue option. Tail towing is easier on both paddler and rescuee. But again, the water temps would come into play. Strength saps quickly.

But ..... there are no reports that a rescue attempt was made, are there?
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Old 25th October 2016, 01:41 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I missed this the first time

Sorry, there were no witnesses that saw his kayak sink. It was getting dark and they do not appear to have had lights. Ms Graswald called for help and a rescue boat came out in time for her to end up in the water as well and have to rescue her.

She survived because there was a rescue boat right there and because she was wearing a life vest. Even wearing a life vest, if that rescue boat was not there, I would not have given her more than a 25% chance of survival.
Do you have any links to confirm the info about the rescue boat? Do we have any accurate time scale?
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Old 25th October 2016, 01:59 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Do you have any links to confirm the info about the rescue boat? Do we have any accurate time scale?
The whole time scale is a matter of guessing. . . .I actually don't even trust Angela herself. She was likely drinking herself, suffering from hypothermia (which would have been made worse by the drinking), and scared half out of her mind.

You have to understand that I have read dozens of articles on the subject and watched two documentaries, all along with discussing the issue with other kayakers. Trying to find exactly where I read something is sometimes hard.

This is one I could find
http://www.canoekayak.com/news/kayak...ds1q6J7cA3a.97

Edit: One should also note that in the exact same river, Ian Jones drowned. He was the boyfriend of Tali Lennox, daughter of Annie Lennox, and they were both on the river. Tali survived but Ian Jones did not. Tali was smart enough not to talk to the cops. Perhaps after seeing the Graswald case, her lawyers told her to just stay away from the cops.
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Old 25th October 2016, 02:10 PM   #296
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The linked blog says she was already in the water when the rescue boat got to her.

The news article isn't clear, but also says she was in the water.

Nothing about her trying to stand up as it approached.

Quote:
Graswald called 911 before being tossed in the rough waters herself. She remembers seeing rescue boat lights shortly after she lost sight of her fiance.
http://westchester.news12.com/news/m...ive-1.10323591

ETA. Another article on the same site says she was recued by a nearby boater. A recreational power boat.

That would make a lot more sense to me. I doubt there are rescue boats just waiting around to respond within seconds to any incident.

Last edited by Shiner; 25th October 2016 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 25th October 2016, 02:14 PM   #297
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When did I write that she tried to stand up?
Is there something I missed somewhere?

Edit: With respect to the rescue boat, my reading is that it was a boat from the local marina that went out to rescue them.
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Old 25th October 2016, 02:30 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
When did I write that she tried to stand up?
Is there something I missed somewhere?

Edit: With respect to the rescue boat, my reading is that it was a boat from the local marina that went out to rescue them.
I didn't mean to imply that you said she stood up. That was something that Samson has said a couple of times. Something about falling off a log.

You don't stand up in kayaks, especially in rough water.
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Old 25th October 2016, 04:38 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I didn't mean to imply that you said she stood up. That was something that Samson has said a couple of times. Something about falling off a log.

You don't stand up in kayaks, especially in rough water.
I don't think Samson has ever been kayaking.

I try to, as much as possible, judge these cases using skepticism.

Have you ever heard of Hanlon's Razor
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
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Old 25th October 2016, 05:25 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post

Sorry, there were no witnesses that saw his kayak sink. It was getting dark and they do not appear to have had lights. Ms Graswald called for help and a rescue boat came out in time for her to end up in the water as well and have to rescue her.
<snip>

What are you talking about, Desert Fox?
I think that you, friend in debate, are following toooo many pro-innocence cases
to remember all the important little details in this particular case we discuss.
I do not. That said, allow me to help refresh your memory, ok?

Angelika texted Barbara,
1 of the gals that she co-volunteered to work with out there Bannerman Island at 7:04 pm that Sunday evening, saying they were leaving.

Barbara Gottlock lives with her husband Wes right near Plum Point,
where Vinny's white Jeep was parked at, where they unloaded the kayaks, launched at about 4:30pm that Sunday afternoon. These older folks were aware that Vincent + Angelika were heading home. Angelika makes no mention that the winds are out of control, the waves are crazy, the waves are too big, help us get off of here, we are scared, etc. Eerily calm, the text is something about the birds, IIRC.

You can easily see Bannerman Island in the distance from their house. Check the screen grab here:


Wes has a telescope in his house.
From what I recall, Wes stated that he saw them and their kayaks on Bannerman Island then,
but could not make out their faces some 1 +1/4 to 1 + 1/2 mile away whie looking thru his telescope.

Angelika told Police that the 'accident' happened 1/2 way home, around 7:20pm.
Wes G. saw some things out there on The Hudson River. He did indeed testify, from what I recall,
in front of The Grand Jury, but there is now a gag order...

I've wondered what a guy can see with a telescope?
My little brother David, into Astronomy, just bought himself a neat telescope to look at the stars, Moon, etc.
Of course RW had to have a lookie here at the beach the other day were I look for sharks.

What can I see out on the beach or the open waters here of Los Angeles 3/4's to 1/2 a mile away? Plenty.

Witness Wes Gottlock saw things out there on The Hudson River that evening. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but it was not pitch black dark when the 'accident' happened. What Wes Gottlock saw as a witness, well it'll be interesting to find out when Court commences.
My opinion only,
RW


PS - I seem to recall Angelika asking for Wes to keep an eye out for Vinny as the search for his corpse went on. Chick must have known of the telescope in his living room. Used him for a witness to the 'accident' that she caused by her sabotage of Vincent's gear. After he had called off their up-coming wedding, it seems...

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Old 25th October 2016, 05:37 PM   #301
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I need to let people know that RW is on my ignore list. I don't hate him but just think his posts are this crazy useless mess of garbage.
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Old 25th October 2016, 06:09 PM   #302
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Greetings Shiner,
Looks like DF is mad at me again,
because I do not swallow the pro-innocence bull in this particular case,
even though I was accepted as ok in the old Amanda Knox case.

As Desert Fox is busting out credentials,
well allow me RW, to do the same, for I am the dude challenging The Experts in this case we discuss.
I don't wanna come across as arrogant, a know it all, for I'm not. But that said, I'm a very experienced, old surfer. 40 years of riding waves under my belt, I've earned paychecks back in the late 1980's from riding a surfboard in real, hard breaking waves. Been in a buncha surf mags too, like Surfer Magazine, where I, RW is seen here riding a wave, doing a floater at Rat Beach in Torrance back in the '88:


Nowadays, I look for sharks,
sometimes even from a kayak(!) in between photographing surf.

+


I live and breath waves, swells, water, wind.
Which is what this case is all about.

I told pro-innocence folks when I 1st was asked by Anglolawyer, old CW himself, to check into this case, that I believed Angelika was guilty. Before I'd ever even had a chance to paddle the same modle of kayak as Vincent Viafore last used. They seemingly did not like this and nowadays do not like me.
Bummer.

For I know that anyone who paddles a kayak with a low riding stern, like my own 15 ft 'Cobra Tourer' kayak is,
a kayak which I've paddled 100's of miles in all over the water of Los Angeles in, in all kinds of conditions:

and can even sail it into the wind too:

well a fella who has that kind of experience knows that paddling or sailing a low-riding kayak in strong, gusty winds, or paddling a low-riding kayak thru wind driven, open water white capping swells, well you just know that the stern will often be awash, all you have to do is look behind you. Yet you will notice that the cock-pit seating area does not really have a problem with crazy waves constantly crashing into it, unless you are in the shore break, dealing with real, hardbreaking waves that are surfer or body surfer could ride. So when I started do little tests paddles, videoing this happening, taking pix of it too, posting of it, well the hard workin' pro-innocence folks don't really dig it, it seems. Oh well.

So I'm 1 of the main dudes arguing for Angelika Graswald's GUILT!
Lock her up!

I know what would happen,
that did apparently indeed happen, if your gal, like Angelika,
for some reason, decides to un-screw + then remove the Drain-Age Plug
from your stern on a low riding kayak...
See you all next time.
RW

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Old 25th October 2016, 06:45 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I don't think Samson has ever been kayaking.

I try to, as much as possible, judge these cases using skepticism.

Have you ever heard of Hanlon's Razor
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
I understand. I can see the argument that it was so rough they both capsized separately, but there are just too many other points.

I guess it's impossible to say whether Vincent capsized because the kayak was half full of water, or for other reasons. Once it's capsized, it's full of water.

Has there been much talk about the kayak experience of the pair?
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Old 25th October 2016, 07:39 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
<snip>
Has there been much talk about the kayak experience of the pair?
He grew up there on The River, from what I understand.
I recall reading, and made note of it, that 1 of Vincent's friends wrote of after his death
that he knew Vincent had participated in kayak paddling races in some club he was in...

By the way,
for anyone that is interested in the alleged murder of Vincent Viafore,
who wishes to see what his model of kayak, the 'Fusion 124' looks like out on the Hudson River,
how it sits in the water, paddles, etc. here is a short 1:38 minute video clip from 48 Hours:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhEojnlGwDY

You can see in that 48 Hours video that the kayak is pretty stable, level...

My own tests show me this,
but I like sharing with interested folks what happens when you paddle this same model of kayak
in gusty winds, open water, choppy, white capping swell, for that was what happened when Vinny died.

Angelika should have never un-screwed + removed his Drain-Age Plug from the stern of his kayak.
RW

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Old 25th October 2016, 08:13 PM   #305
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Thanks, RW. Pleased to meetcha. I think?
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Old 25th October 2016, 08:29 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I understand. I can see the argument that it was so rough they both capsized separately, but there are just too many other points.

I guess it's impossible to say whether Vincent capsized because the kayak was half full of water, or for other reasons. Once it's capsized, it's full of water.

Has there been much talk about the kayak experience of the pair?
From what I have read was that they were inexperienced. Also, I do not believe that they had taken a safety course or read any books on kayaking. I suspect that even after just one year, I am more experienced than they were.

He apparently owned a power boat before that was repossessed but I have large sail boat experience and navy ship experience - It certainly does not help with kayaking.
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Old 26th October 2016, 04:17 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
From what I have read was that they were inexperienced. Also, I do not believe that they had taken a safety course or read any books on kayaking. I suspect that even after just one year, I am more experienced than they were.

He apparently owned a power boat before that was repossessed but I have large sail boat experience and navy ship experience - It certainly does not help with kayaking.
Shiner you should be pleased to meet RW.
And I hope DF reconsiders the ignore function.
I am a strong supporter of RW bringing a prosecution view.

RW now relies on ANjie removing the plug on Bannerman Island, this did not happen.
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Old 26th October 2016, 07:01 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
From what I have read was that they were inexperienced. Also, I do not believe that they had taken a safety course or read any books on kayaking.
<snip>
Inexperienced kayakers do not check the tides before paddling. Tides? What's that, an inexperienced person might ask, right?

Angelika told police they had checked the tides before launching to Bannerman Island.
Both had PFD's, Angelika's a wearable Type I, II, or III, Vincent's PFD - a Type IV, which has 18 lbs of floatation.


Originally Posted by Desert Fox
I suspect that even after just one year, I am more experienced than they were.
After a year, you have more experience paddling a Rounded hull 'Perception Arc' kayak, bro, NOT a V-shaped Dihedral hull 'Fusion 124' kayak. You still do not have a personal clue how the kayak that Vincent last paddled handles.


My opinion only,
RW

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Old 26th October 2016, 07:21 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
<snip>
I am a strong supporter of RW bringing a prosecution view.
<snip>
Hi Samson,
I bring a watermans point of view,
from a fella that kayak paddles in waves and wind.
Not like the guys that they always show us on CBS or ABC News paddling in flat, calm conditions, proving, (hahaha) that a 'Fusion 124' kayak can not sink if the Drain-Age Plug is removed. Duh! So clue-less! It's flat out on the water, there are no wind waves nor swell to wash over the stern.



Angelika was kind of clowning the cops out there on Bannerman Island,
read the Huntley Hearing Courtroom testimony from June of 2016: You don't kayak, right officer? - as he asks her questions about what happened out there on the water, right before she was then transported by boat to Montgomery Barracks for her 5 hour interrogation session that happened over the span of 11 hours before her arrest.

The cops had no clue really about what she had done to Vincent's kayak.
It seems she thought they did, they were closing in on her, felt some guilt pressure, told them about the missing Drain-Age Plug, how she removed it, that locking screw too from Vincent's kayak paddle...
My random thoughts only,
RW

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Old 26th October 2016, 08:14 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I need to let people know that RW is on my ignore list. I don't hate him but just think his posts are this crazy useless mess of garbage.
Are they ? because the post preceding yours is certainly present cogent argument. And the sunset is 19h30 on that date, so I am not sure either it was that dark.
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Old 26th October 2016, 11:36 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Shiner you should be pleased to meet RW.
And I hope DF reconsiders the ignore function.
I am a strong supporter of RW bringing a prosecution view.

RW now relies on ANjie removing the plug on Bannerman Island, this did not happen.
His posts are scattered every which way, present stuff that just is immaterial, and basically just are not useful. I will answer other people who get to the point and present stuff in an organized manner.

Edit: I found this article
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/21/ny...=nyregion&_r=0

Does make a mistake describing their kayaks as white water kayaks not rec kayaks however.
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Old 26th October 2016, 11:39 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Are they ? because the post preceding yours is certainly present cogent argument. And the sunset is 19h30 on that date, so I am not sure either it was that dark.
I agree. I have found his posts quite enlightening. The only one I have considered putting on mute is Samson because he simply cannot stay on topic and leave other cases out of anything.

Back on topic. I am kayaker myself though I am no expert. RW has proven that a low riding hull with a missing plug will quite easily sink under the right circumstances. Mine runs the same except that my drain is at the front, in my line of view. But even at that, I don't know that I would notice it missing right away. Given the events, my theory runs that she didn't premeditate it happening, I think she saw the opportunity and took advantage. That plug had to have been removed at the island. He would surely have taken on water on the way out otherwise.
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Old 26th October 2016, 12:00 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Are they ? because the post preceding yours is certainly present cogent argument. And the sunset is 19h30 on that date, so I am not sure either it was that dark.
I have trouble even answering to because, to be blunt, I cannot understand how anybody would make the argument that you just made. If you ever have been outside at dusk anywhere, not even just on the water, you should know that visibility is sharply reduced. In some ways it can actually be worse because you cannot have your full night vision either.

I have never paddled in the dusk but have sailed in the dusk (and at night). I also was in the navy and had lookout watches during all times of the day including dusk. I also work at piers and often observe the sun coming up. Often it is hard to see a decent sized fishing boat some distance away in the water. Sunrise and Sunset can be some of the most beautiful times of the day but visibility is limited.

Kayaks are tiny things as is and hard to often see. There are multiple incidents per year where power boats run over kayaks in the water, not keeping a careful watch. As I type this, I can look out onto to James River. If there was a kayak in the middle of the river, I would have trouble seeing it (1500 with sunset being at 1814)

The trouble is that RW should know everything I just wrote here so I have to consider that he is being disingenuous.
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Old 26th October 2016, 12:09 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
I agree. I have found his posts quite enlightening. The only one I have considered putting on mute is Samson because he simply cannot stay on topic and leave other cases out of anything.

Back on topic. I am kayaker myself though I am no expert. RW has proven that a low riding hull with a missing plug will quite easily sink under the right circumstances. Mine runs the same except that my drain is at the front, in my line of view. But even at that, I don't know that I would notice it missing right away. Given the events, my theory runs that she didn't premeditate it happening, I think she saw the opportunity and took advantage. That plug had to have been removed at the island. He would surely have taken on water on the way out otherwise.
Being that basically every expert in the field disagrees with you, I don't think we need to go on.
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Old 26th October 2016, 12:14 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Being that basically every expert in the field disagrees with you, I don't think we need to go on.
Sorry but you are going have to prove that one. One or two perhaps, but I require links to all the experts in the field that disagree. Then you can make a statement like that.
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Old 26th October 2016, 12:34 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
Sorry but you are going have to prove that one. One or two perhaps, but I require links to all the experts in the field that disagree. Then you can make a statement like that.
I believe I have provided at least three in various posts.
ABC had their expert, CBS had their expert, and the newspaper had a third expert.

Edit: One one my big arguments is that even if the lack of the plug did contribute to him ending up in the water, she is not going to know that. If experts don't think it was a major contributing factor, I don't think that she could know that. Consider she was also drinking while kayaking.

Personally I don't think it was a major factor and question if the kayak even flipped due to flooding but instead just a bad stroke. With how wide his cockpit was and how he was right on the limit with regard to intoxication, I can easily see him as somehow either tipping or simply falling out of his kayak.

I should add that there is a good reason for my argument here. If Ms Graswald is convicted, it will decrease kayak safety not increase it. You need to be responsible for both yourself and your own boat. You don't go out in 46 degree water without a wet suit or dry suit. You don't go out at all without a life vest. Pay attention to the weather. You should not drink while kayaking - and it is against the law where if you are inebriated even while in a self powered craft, it si considered the same as if you are driving a car. If you are not trained in kayak rescue techniques, the best thing you can do is save yourself.
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Old 26th October 2016, 03:52 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I have trouble even answering to because, to be blunt, I cannot understand how anybody would make the argument that you just made. If you ever have been outside at dusk anywhere, not even just on the water, you should know that visibility is sharply reduced. In some ways it can actually be worse because you cannot have your full night vision either.

I have never paddled in the dusk but have sailed in the dusk (and at night). I also was in the navy and had lookout watches during all times of the day including dusk. I also work at piers and often observe the sun coming up. Often it is hard to see a decent sized fishing boat some distance away in the water. Sunrise and Sunset can be some of the most beautiful times of the day but visibility is limited.

Kayaks are tiny things as is and hard to often see. There are multiple incidents per year where power boats run over kayaks in the water, not keeping a careful watch. As I type this, I can look out onto to James River. If there was a kayak in the middle of the river, I would have trouble seeing it (1500 with sunset being at 1814)

The trouble is that RW should know everything I just wrote here so I have to consider that he is being disingenuous.
I think you're being a little narrow in your focus. Dusk is different on every river.

This whole incident happened between 1920-1940 hrs. Sunset @1930. It may well have been dark at 1940 when Angelika made the 911 call, but it could only just be dark.

I've lived and played on rivers and bays my whole life. I was a surfer too before I decided that the sharks have more right than I do out there. I've been in and on the water at dusk many times. I just don't agree that the visibility would be nil. Someone at an elevated position, with the last rays of sun shining from behind and down onto to the water, and with the aid of a telescope ..... sounds like he knows how to use the 'scope too. I can see the possibility that some things were witnessed.

I just don't discount the possibility that easily. An easy way to get an indication would be a webcam in the area. I couldn't find one in my searching just now.

Doing a little reading, I came across this seemingly innocent, yet telling blog about the current at Bannerman's Island.

Quote:
We left planning to go rent a canoe and come back the next day. That evening, I called a friend who is an amateur local historian. "Sure I've been to Bannerman Island. It's covered with poison ivy. And it's infested with snakes and deer ticks. Oh, and watch out for the current. I once watched canoes paddle for hours trying to get to the island. Make sure you put in north of the island when the current is flowing south."

My nerve rushed away like a Hudson River tide. I began to look for a safer way to learn more about this abandoned castle.
http://www.hudsonriver.com/bannerman-island
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Old 26th October 2016, 04:07 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
I agree. I have found his posts quite enlightening. The only one I have considered putting on mute is Samson because he simply cannot stay on topic and leave other cases out of anything.

Back on topic. I am kayaker myself though I am no expert. RW has proven that a low riding hull with a missing plug will quite easily sink under the right circumstances. Mine runs the same except that my drain is at the front, in my line of view. But even at that, I don't know that I would notice it missing right away. Given the events, my theory runs that she didn't premeditate it happening, I think she saw the opportunity and took advantage. That plug had to have been removed at the island. He would surely have taken on water on the way out otherwise.
I have discussed many cases on different threads and message boards.
You must be unaware of the adage that those who do not learn the mistakes of history are bound to repeat them.
And the more cases I research, the more the fabric coheres. I never introduce another case to a thread without thinking carefully first. It is simply not possible to understand the complex mechanism underlying the narrative from questioning a witness, to charging that witness, persuading the relatives of the victim that witness is guilty, getting the prosecutor on side to fabricate a case to the jury, achieving a guilty verdict, jailing the witness, appealing the verdict and the sentence and so on without observing how often the pattern is repeated. This process can take decades, when a proper analysis of the crime or in this case accident scene will furnish all the answers.
Here we seem to have reduced the case by concensus to its simplest ingredient.
When was the plug removed by Angelika?

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Old 26th October 2016, 04:24 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I think you're being a little narrow in your focus. Dusk is different on every river.

This whole incident happened between 1920-1940 hrs. Sunset @1930. It may well have been dark at 1940 when Angelika made the 911 call, but it could only just be dark.
You do know that the Hudson river is in a valley with hills on the west and east sides, right? The sun is going to go behind the hills earlier than sunset would indicate.
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Old 26th October 2016, 04:48 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
You do know that the Hudson river is in a valley with hills on the west and east sides, right? The sun is going to go behind the hills earlier than sunset would indicate.
I had assumed that the Hudson Valley has hills to the west, yes. But after consulting a topographic map of the area ....... I'm not seeing any significant elevation due west of Bannerman's Island. The river ia over a mile across there.The hills that I do see appear to be 30 miles to the west. Yes there is elevated ground to the East, South, and less so to the North, but the ground rises very gradually to the west until we get to the Wurtsboro Ridge.

ETA: this video seems to confirm that.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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