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Tags Angelika Graswald , kayaking , murder cases , New York cases

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Old 26th October 2016, 05:00 PM   #321
Desert Fox
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I had assumed that the Hudson Valley has hills to the west, yes. But after consulting a topographic map of the area ....... I'm not seeing any significant elevation due west of Bannerman's Island. The river ia over a mile across there.
Still are around 250 +/- feet high. Probably going to have the sun completely behind the hills by 1915 or so. I used Stellarium and moved it to that date and time. The sun was completely behind the artificial hills at that time.

And speaking about the river being a mile, that is why I used the James river.
Where I am at, it is around a mile wide. Even with my high powered binoculars (used for star gazing), I would have a hard time seeing a kayak halfway in the middle of the river.
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Old 27th October 2016, 06:26 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post

You don't go out at all without a life vest. Pay attention to the weather. You should not drink while kayaking - and it is against the law where if you are inebriated even while in a self powered craft, it si considered the same as if you are driving a car. If you are not trained in kayak rescue techniques, the best thing you can do is save yourself.
I completely agree. I go back and forth on this case a lot. The only reason I would even question it as being anything more than accident is her admission and behavior. She is all but painting a bullseye on herself. But yes, in the grand scheme of things, he made all the choices that led to his sinking/tipping.
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Old 27th October 2016, 09:10 AM   #323
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What a Wing-Girl could see

Greetings,
During all their kayak paddling trips together that VV + AG enjoyed, at some point in time,
Angelika being Vincent's wing-girl had to have seen that his stern rode low, much lower than her own.

For else why would Angelika have ever decided to unscrew
+ then remove the Drain-Age Plug from the stern of Vincent's kayak?
So the kitty cat could, um play with it?
Hmmmm, ok...


Angelika,
being Vinny's wing-girl,
would have seen water come over Vincent's stern if he paddled hard, fast,
for his bow would lift up a bit, his stern go under abit if he propelled himself forward hard,
like I am doing here, using the same model of kayak as Vincent last paddled:

+



Just like it does when the Los Angeles Lifeguards fire up the diesel engines
on The Baywatch Lifeguard boat out past The Buoy, guns it, while heading back to Marina de Rey:



Angelika, being Vincent's wing-girl,
would have also seen how his stern rode low if Vinny was paddling his 'Fusion 124' kayak
into the wind, thru the wind chop, going up + down, up + down thru the swells
like I am doing so here, in a 'Fusion 124' kayak, as I approach The Buoy:



Or if Vincent had a strong wind, and waves following him.
Lets use this photo as an example, for it was shot by a dudes wing-girl
as he approached the South side of Bannerman Island, with a wind following him and lil' waves too:


I dug up the wind reports from the weather station adjacent to Bannerman Island that day, winds direction was as I thought, blowing from the SW to SSW, against The Hudson River flow, creating the wind chop, those "crazy waves" his wing-girl called them + photographed that were following her dude right then that day.

If Angelika saw how Vincent's 'Fusion 124' kayak stern would have been constantly awash in conditions like this, and at some point in time, ( a few weeks before, or even at some point right before returning homeward on their last paddle together), she decided to un-screw and then remove the Drain-Age Plug from the stern of Vincent's kayak, well she might have wanted him dead, right?


+

+


"I'm ok with it."
"I'm ok with that."

Hmmmm, ok...


See you next time,
RW

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Old 27th October 2016, 12:01 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
I completely agree. I go back and forth on this case a lot. The only reason I would even question it as being anything more than accident is her admission and behavior. She is all but painting a bullseye on herself. But yes, in the grand scheme of things, he made all the choices that led to his sinking/tipping.
The police, the same ones who complain about her behavior, use various coping strategies to deal with the horror. It is better to laugh than to cry sort of thing. You find with cops that no matter what the defendant does, it is always suspicious. If you cry, you are guilty. If you try to be stoic, it is suspicious. If you try to be relaxed, that is suspicious.

After eleven hours of interrogation, a person may admit to anything.
This is a transcript of Eric Wilson of the Norfolk Four on the stand.
taken from the PBS documentary "The Confessions"

NARRATOR: Eric took the stand in his own defense. He claimed that his confession was false and was extracted by Detective Ford, who was, he said, very aggressive, very threatening, very angry. The prosecutor asked Eric if he would confess to killing someone if it weren't true.

ERIC WILSON: At that point in time, if they had told me that I killed JFK, I would have told them that I handed Oswald the gun.


False confessions, which she did not actually confess to murder, are frightfully common.
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Old 28th October 2016, 01:55 PM   #325
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I've had time to go back through the thread and most of the links to all the news articles now.

A few thoughts.

On the body only moving a mile over a month. The point has been made about currents and eddies, etc, but the Hudson is also tidal. I think that is the main reason the body stayed in the area. The tidal flow is known to have this effect.

Desert Fox, I've noted your comments about light, and the use of the telescope by the witness. I think we can discount that after reading the account of how the power boat from the marina became involved. A woman saw the kayakers in trouble from the marina and alerted others who then motored out to her. This suggests reasonable visibility at water level, which suggests better visibility from the top of the bank with the last rays of sun beaming from behind.

Both of the kayaks involved look to be very wide and stable. It's very hard for me to imagine anyone tipping one over. It's also very hard to imagine, as RW pointed out, how the hell Angelika was able to maintain control while using her phone if things were so bad that both craft capsized.

Besides all that, I've seen a lot of pics of Angelika now, and I think she's a very attractive woman. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. This is a purely hormonal conclusion.

IF she did it, I still think it was an opportunity she realised whilst on the island. She was volunteering on the island for 3 years? She knew that stretch of river quite well, I say. She would be aware of the tail of Vincents kayak being submerged constantly on the crossing. They would've been aware of the conditions on the water becoming uglier.

And tipping. The easiest way to tip another yakker is to hit their tail with your nose at the right angle. This is much easier in rough water.

How and why did Vincent become seperated from his yak? That makes no sense. If you fall out of a kayak, you never actually lose contact with it. Unless you panic, I guess. The shock of the 40° water?

Also. Would you not just paddle over to your friend/lover so they can hold onto your (very stable) kayak? This doesn't sound like it happened. She watched him. And how the hell did she end up with his paddle?

Still a lot of mystery in this one. Her 'apparent' actions after his capsize just don't make sense to me.
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Old 28th October 2016, 02:52 PM   #326
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Have you even been in an emergency situation? The reality is that most often, unless trained, you will do the wrong thing.

With various rescue techniques, both are completely untrained.

I actually don't think that Viafort flipped his kayak but somehow fell out. The cockpit of his kayak is huge. I have a much smaller opening in my kayak and not likely to fall out but instead flip. Don't forget that people fall out of full sized rowboats, in many cases while drunk.

Whenever she went to the Island, she took a large boat which does not give you the same sense of how the water effect a kayak. I have sailing experience on large sail boats and it certainly does not allow me to understand how to deal with dangerous weather conditions in a kayak.

In cold water, there is what is called the 1-10-1 rule
http://www.coldwaterbootcamp.com/pages/1_10_60v2.html

Essentially you will probably be in a panic for that first minute, you will be flailing. It is very easy to lose track of where your kayak is. Have you ever practiced bailing out of your kayak in the water. I practiced this in warm water and it took me a probably fifteen seconds to figure out where my kayak was. I am not panicked either. Imagine you are half panicked and in high waves.

I have a white water kayak and can turn on a dime practically. I was at Lake Drummond in calm water and wanted another kayak to get something from the back of my kayak. It took a fair amount of maneuvering to get us lined up. They were not in calm water, it was getting dark, and there were high winds. It is hard to actually get close to somebody. An expert also stated specifically that he would have been more effected by current while she would have been more effected by wind.

Also it is liekly for the first few minutes after the initial panic, they did not realize how serious a situation they were at.

Now, I don't think anybody spied them through a telescope and called for rescue. It is far more likely that somebody is just lying and trying to get their ten minutes of fame. Yu see that in so many cases where you have a witness that was not even there but claims that they did. I believe the rescue boat was somebody ready to go and was asked by the police based on her 9-11 call.
By the way, provide a solid source on what this person claimed.

Edit: The only thing this telescope couple appears to have seen from news articles is a couple on the Island near dusk
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...301826811.html
Wes Gottlock, 70, whose West Windsor, New York, home overlooks the Hudson River, says he and his wife were looking toward Bannerman's Island on the night of Viafore's disappearance. It was from that island that Graswald has told investigators the pair pushed off into the night.

"All I can say is that we did see them on the island that evening, through our telescope from our house," Gottlock tells PEOPLE.
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Old 28th October 2016, 03:24 PM   #327
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You ignored my logical point. A woman (no telescope or bino's mentioned) was able to see that the kayaker/s needed help. From the shore. From water level at the marina.

Obviously this means there was some light. Obviously if you're at the top of the river bank the visibility will be better than if you're at water level.

Mostly, your post is asserting opinions. It doesn't seem to be based in fact or logic.

Telescope guy makes it clear that "all I can say" ...... I take this to mean that he's been told to not disclose what he did see until the trial.

I think you're clutching a bit with some of the points. I think some of these "expert witnesses" are telling the story that the defense havs asked them to tell.

I've never seen someone "fall out of" a kayak. Canoes, yes. Not kayaks.
As RW's pics and videos show, the model of kayak that Vincent was in is very hard to tip over.

How do we establish that he was drunk. Isn't this just speculation? I can't imagine a blood alcohol test would show anything after a month in the water.
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Old 28th October 2016, 04:11 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
You ignored my logical point. A woman (no telescope or bino's mentioned) was able to see that the kayaker/s needed help. From the shore. From water level at the marina.
Source. . . .Not RW fantasies!

Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Mostly, your post is asserting opinions. It doesn't seem to be based in fact or logic.
It is a simple fact that 139 people died in the United States in 2015 in Kayaks and Canoes, most through drowning. The simple fact is that basically none except this one is assumed to be murder.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.america...15_partial.pdf

Do you really thing none of these were in Rec kayaks?

Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Telescope guy makes it clear that "all I can say" ...... I take this to mean that he's been told to not disclose what he did see until the trial.
Don't make up stuff then.

Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I think you're clutching a bit with some of the points. I think some of these "expert witnesses" are telling the story that the defense havs asked them to tell.
Why? The media can run a story either way. They can run a story of either innocent woman wrongly imprisoned or evil Latvian witch.

Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I've never seen someone "fall out of" a kayak. Canoes, yes. Not kayaks.
As RW's pics and videos show, the model of kayak that Vincent was in is very hard to tip over.
Remember - Cock Up before Conspiracy.
How he ended up in the water, I don't think we will ever know for sure but it is fantasy in blaming somebody else for it.

Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
How do we establish that he was drunk. Isn't this just speculation? I can't imagine a blood alcohol test would show anything after a month in the water.
Might actually want to do some research
http://www.newsweek.com/vince-viafor...omicide-371066
The Times says the examiner’s report lists the cause of death as drowning and says Viafore had a blood alcohol concentration of 0.066.

Legal limit in New York is .08 so you can see that it was near the limit.
At .07 (Remember these are a spectrum) - Slight impairment of balance, speech, vision, reaction time, and hearing. Euphoria. Judgment and self-control are reduced, and caution, reason and memory are impaired, .08 is legally impaired and it is illegal to drive at this level. You will probably believe that you are functioning better than you really are.
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Old 28th October 2016, 05:36 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Source. . . .Not RW fantasies!

It is a simple fact that 139 people died in the United States in 2015 in Kayaks and Canoes, most through drowning. The simple fact is that basically none except this one is assumed to be murder.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.america...15_partial.pdf

Do you really thing none of these were in Rec kayaks?


Don't make up stuff then.


Why? The media can run a story either way. They can run a story of either innocent woman wrongly imprisoned or evil Latvian witch.


Remember - Cock Up before Conspiracy.
How he ended up in the water, I don't think we will ever know for sure but it is fantasy in blaming somebody else for it.


Might actually want to do some research
http://www.newsweek.com/vince-viafor...omicide-371066
The Times says the examiner’s report lists the cause of death as drowning and says Viafore had a blood alcohol concentration of 0.066.

Legal limit in New York is .08 so you can see that it was near the limit.
At .07 (Remember these are a spectrum) - Slight impairment of balance, speech, vision, reaction time, and hearing. Euphoria. Judgment and self-control are reduced, and caution, reason and memory are impaired, .08 is legally impaired and it is illegal to drive at this level. You will probably believe that you are functioning better than you really are.
WTH? I'm not spinning anybody's fantasies. I'm talking logic and what is printed in the media. You're the one entertaining fantasy, mate. Read my post again.

The links to the articles detailing the witness reports are all here in this thread. It is "fantasy" to concoct your theory. A theory that completely disregards the witness reports. A theory that relies on illogical conclusions.

This pro innocence gig looks like woo to me. Or religion.

I didn't know they could get a blood alcohol reading off a drowned and decomposing corpse. Colour me surprised.

Please explain what exactly it is that you think I've made up.

Last edited by Shiner; 28th October 2016 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 28th October 2016, 07:11 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
WTH? I'm not spinning anybody's fantasies. I'm talking logic and what is printed in the media. You're the one entertaining fantasy, mate. Read my post again.

The links to the articles detailing the witness reports are all here in this thread. It is "fantasy" to concoct your theory. A theory that completely disregards the witness reports. A theory that relies on illogical conclusions.

This pro innocence gig looks like woo to me. Or religion.

I didn't know they could get a blood alcohol reading off a drowned and decomposing corpse. Colour me surprised.

Please explain what exactly it is that you think I've made up.
The pro guilt gig looks like woo to me.
Amongst other things it requires her to execute a perfect murder then tell the cops she's glad he's dead.

Tactics Angelika, tactics
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Old 28th October 2016, 07:16 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The pro guilt gig looks like woo to me.
Amongst other things it requires her to execute a perfect murder then tell the cops she's glad he's dead.

Tactics Angelika, tactics
No. It means disregarding many of the apparent facts. It means pretending that there are no witnesses. It means refusing to acknowledge the lack of logic in saying there was no visibility when there obviously was.

Those points will do for now.

I'm not even trying to make a case for guilt. I'm just trying to look at it honestly.
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Old 28th October 2016, 07:28 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
No. It means disregarding many of the apparent facts. It means pretending that there are no witnesses. It means refusing to acknowledge the lack of logic in saying there was no visibility when there obviously was.

Those points will do for now.

I'm not even trying to make a case for guilt. I'm just trying to look at it honestly.
I'm a moderate on pro innocence, I think she almost has a death wish herself, but the case is straightforward. If she unscrewed the plug on the island and claimed it was earlier for the cat, it is a clever plot to a perfect murder, so she would never say she's glad he's dead.
On the other hand if the cat story is true she could never expect his death to follow weeks later this way. In that scenario it seems reasonable to seem happy about his death.
Can you see what I see as a logical conundrum? That is why I think he died accidentally, then she was honest about everything including being glad how it turned out. Thus the death wish, and where she has ended up.

Personally I turn over the planning phase of a score of these cases in my mind. Jail cells are occupied by a lot of prisoners who allegedly devised ridiculous plans and behaved ridiculously afterwards. I could list them but I would be in breach of 11.
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Old 28th October 2016, 07:36 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I'm a moderate on pro innocence, I think she almost has a death wish herself, but the case is straightforward. If she unscrewed the plug on the island and claimed it was earlier for the cat, it is a clever plot to a perfect murder, so she would never say she's glad he's dead.
On the other hand if the cat story is true she could never expect his death to follow weeks later this way. In that scenario it seems reasonable to seem happy about his death.
Can you see what I see as a logical conundrum? That is why I think he died accidentally, then she was honest about everything including being glad how it turned out. Thus the death wish, and where she has ended up.

Personally I turn over the planning phase of a score of these cases in my mind. Jail cells are occupied by a lot of prisoners who allegedly devised ridiculous plans and behaved ridiculously afterwards. I could list them but I would be in breach of 11.
I can see your point, mate. Clear as day. I agree with you that murder is hard to imagine in these circumstances. Your post doesn't address the one of mine that you quoted. I've noticed both yourself and DF doing this.

How do you rationalize the rejecting of major parts of the story. I get that they don't fit the pro innocence narrative. I don't get how you expect to be taken seriously if this is how you discuss. (Not aimed entirely at you, Samson. )
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Old 28th October 2016, 08:09 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I can see your point, mate. Clear as day. I agree with you that murder is hard to imagine in these circumstances. Your post doesn't address the one of mine that you quoted. I've noticed both yourself and DF doing this.

How do you rationalize the rejecting of major parts of the story. I get that they don't fit the pro innocence narrative. I don't get how you expect to be taken seriously if this is how you discuss. (Not aimed entirely at you, Samson. )
Is this how you are thinking?
1. At some stage she removed the plug, if on Bannerman's guilty as charged,.

I would agree with this.

2. Removed earlier at home.
Paddling back she sees him sinking, recalls the plug she unscrewed, knows he is a goner if she just does nothing or helps him along by taking paddle, not phoning and so on, all as witnessed.
Guilty as charged.

I see that as complex, and like I have said, a little like the Gable Tostee. From my perspective if I had been Viafore and survived, I think I would have a very clear idea whether she was happy to see me drown out there.

I just don't know, so I am a kind of moderate, and so support RW with some of his points. I think he is an honest contributor.
However, ultimately I would never prosecute except on the premise:

She unscrewed the plug on the island.

ETA a third possibility,
She unscrewed the plug as she said, hoped he would never notice, and watched him launch in rough seas from Bannerman and deliberately withheld that knowledge, hoping he would sink.
Yeah, dodgy girl friend there.

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Old 28th October 2016, 08:33 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
WTH? I'm not spinning anybody's fantasies. I'm talking logic and what is printed in the media. You're the one entertaining fantasy, mate. Read my post again.

The links to the articles detailing the witness reports are all here in this thread. It is "fantasy" to concoct your theory. A theory that completely disregards the witness reports. A theory that relies on illogical conclusions.

This pro innocence gig looks like woo to me. Or religion.

I didn't know they could get a blood alcohol reading off a drowned and decomposing corpse. Colour me surprised.

Please explain what exactly it is that you think I've made up.
Is there a single safety rule with respect to kayaking that Vincent Viafore did not violate? Do you really think all of the standard kayaking safety rules are there for no reason?

Somehow you seem to think that none of those hundred and twenty or so drownings last year in kayaks / canoes are not in rec kayaks?

You have read / heard the testimony of kayak instructors who have said that they should not have been in those types of kayaks in that weather? Apparently they have all been paid off to say so?

Apparently RW playing around a little in a kayak is more valuable than them?

Interesting, very interesting. . . .

Let us assume that the police / prosecutors actually reported what the witnesses said, and there are plenty of examples of both stretching what they heard or even eliciting completely false information.

Now, what is the scientific position on eye witness testimony? Doesn't science consider it to be the least reliable form of evidence? You do know that 70% of DNA exoneration involve faulty eye witness testimony according to the innocence project, don't you?

I rest my case!
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Old 28th October 2016, 08:43 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The pro guilt gig looks like woo to me.
Amongst other things it requires her to execute a perfect murder then tell the cops she's glad he's dead.

Tactics Angelika, tactics
29% of DNA exoneration involve false confessions according to the innocence project.
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Old 28th October 2016, 08:56 PM   #337
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Hilarious. Two for the price of one.

I don't rest much at all on RW's experiments. I don't need to. I think it's great that he went to the lengths he did to show how you guys live in denial.

I merely mention it because he did go to the trouble of demonstration. As I said in my first post, it is/was obvious to me that the removal of the plug could/would cause the sinking of the kayak in the right (wrong) conditions.

I also saw RW explain that at least one of the "expert witnesses" did experiments that proved nothing. He made accusations of it being a defence witness setup. The truth of that is irrelevant. The practicality of the experiment is relevant.

As I said already. You guys cherry pick to suit your confirmation bias.

I ask again, Desert Fox, what is it that you accused me of making up?
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Old 28th October 2016, 09:09 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The pro guilt gig looks like woo to me.
Amongst other things it requires her to execute a perfect murder then tell the cops she's glad he's dead.

Tactics Angelika, tactics
No it doesn't, and I saw this explained to you earlier. If it doesnt work, it's a non issue.

"Oh, we must remember to check those!"

All this other stuff ..."repeated attempts increase chances of being caught...."

It's woo. It's a belief system. It's adding whatever fluff you want to your preconceived notion that a woman who confessed on video, didn't really mean it.

You come to this conclusion from reading a few quotes in a news article, and then adding your belief system to it. It's backward.

I came here saying she's guilty. I explained my reasoning. I even conferred that the accident scenario is plausible. I can even say that the likelihood of conviction is slim from what I know of the case.

Do I know anything? Nope. Same as you. We take what we read and watch, which has been thoughtfully edited more for fitting between "sponsors messages" than for any journalistic integrity based reasons. Then we apply our own logic.

I'm seeing the alleged plot to be very hard to prove. I'm not seeing why the police and prosecution would push for a conviction if they just made stuff up. I'm not seeing why thay would just make stuff up. I see the automatic assumption that they have as "woo".

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Old 28th October 2016, 09:17 PM   #339
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Euphoric?

Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
29% of DNA exoneration involve false confessions according to the innocence project.
Ah,
I luv the pro-innocence False Confession theory...

Let's have a look inside the Interrogation Room,
it's Angelika + "Donnie", the NYSP Investigator that Angelika thought was "cute" when she 1st saw him, even told him so?!? Heck Angelika supposedly tried to bribe NYSP Investigator Donald DeQuarto with, err give him a 'gift card', a hand carved figurine too, and even wanted a ride home with him from the Montgomery Barracks one night instead of having to ride home with Vinny's sister. Freak.

Who?

+

True or False?

Next,
The Text to Barbara Gottlock:

True or False?

Next,
The Waves:

True or False?

Next,
Euphoric:

True or False?

Let's examine some of the False Confession that Desert Fox keeps harping about, ok?
Here's a snippet:

And Graswald admitted that she often felt trapped in the relationship, sometimes wishing Viafore was dead:

Investigator 2: Why did you want him to die? How could you best put it?

Angelika Graswald: I wanted to be free.

"I wanted to be free." As startling as that admission was, Angelika made even more disturbing comments to investigators:


Investigator 2: And you feel happy --

Angelika Graswald: Yes.

Investigator2: --- and relieved that it happened? That he's dead?

Angelika Graswald: Yes.

Investigator: When you watched him in the water, was a part of you sayin', "My worries are goin' away now, and I'm free."

Angelika Graswald: Yeah.

Investigator: And were you almost--

Angelika Graswald: Euphoric.

Investigator: Euphoric that he was--

Angelika Graswald: Yes.

Investigator: --gonna be gone.

Angelika Graswald: I just -- I was ... [unintelligible]

Investigator: You felt that way?

Angelika Graswald: Yes. I still do.

Link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...k-murder-case/

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Old 28th October 2016, 09:33 PM   #340
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I don't believe that she was coerced into making those statements, but I don't believe what's quoted above mentions murder either.

She could just be describing how she felt while watching an accident unfold.

What's with the dick who supposedly got the confessions on the island? What detective doesn't carry a voice recorder. It's a basic on phones these days.
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Old 28th October 2016, 09:34 PM   #341
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Hard to believe that Angelika wanted Vinny, her Fiancč dead.
Heck, do I recall correctly that Angelika even wrote about it in her Diary?
Wow!

Kinda reminds me of that Donald Trump tape,
where he mentions how he like to kiss them, grab them by their *****.
The Donald nowadays seems to deny that he'd ever do this,
but, ah, there sure seems to be alotta gals out there that say otherwise...

My opinions only,
RW
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Old 28th October 2016, 09:57 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
You have read / heard the testimony of kayak instructors who have said that they should not have been in those types of kayaks in that weather? Apparently they have all been paid off to say so?

There are folks who get a thrill out of being on the water,
even when the wind blows, the waves are big, or choppy.
Be it surfing, kite-boarding, wind surfing, fishing, kayaking.
Any waterman knows this...

Here's a short video from out on The Hudson River,
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

showing me, others to who might be interested in this case we discuss,
what water conditions that evening were probably like as,
(what'd Angelika state in The Interrogation Room?) oh ya:
"the waves are doing their thing, up + down like that."

Funny thing is,
is that when ever I paddle the 'Fusion 124' kayak out there in similar conditions to that video linked above,
I do not have my very wide, (as Desert Fox likes to call it), open, un-skirted cock-pit seating area fill up with water from the wind driven choppy swells, err waves as they call 'em out on The River, crashing over and on board my seating area.

(Nor did the dude paddling homeward in the video linked above,
and he's paddling a Sit-Inside kayak, with-out a skirt, The kayak instructor Experts would be freaking!!!
Heck his GoPro was not even in a water casing, you can tell that by the loud sound of the wind blowing,
for if he did have it in a water proof casing, it'd be very muffled, safely inside.)

All I do is have my stern get constantly awash as I go up + down,
up + down as the waves do their thing.
With my Drain-Age Plug screwed in...
RW

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Old 28th October 2016, 10:14 PM   #343
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When I watch that video I linked up above from out on The Hudson River
where a dude out fishing is pulling up his anchor, storing it, grasping his paddle and heading back to shore,
well the wind, which created all those lil' waves out there that he has to deal with on his safe paddle back to shore, well it sure sounds a lot louder, stronger, more powerfull than the wind heard on the evening that Vinny Viafore lost his life on The Hudson River when Angelika finally called 911 for help...

Here's a video of that 911 phone call, have a listen:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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Old 28th October 2016, 10:35 PM   #344
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By the way,
I'm kinda into the wind.
Offshore, onshore, side-shore, even glass, I dig it all!

Here's a pic of ol' RW,
getting blown out to sea from an offshore breeze the day after Christmas last year,

in the 'Fusion 124' kayak with it's Drain-Age Plug firmly screwed in, (I'm blown out well past The Buoy, see if you can spot it) in winds that gusted up past the 14 miles an hour seen on the screen of a 'Davis WindScribe' as I personally measure the gusts out there and see how Vinny's model of kayak handles it...

As I've been out, in my 15ft 'Cobra Tourer' kayak,
in winds that I've also measured at 41 mph, well you might agree that I know a lil' bit about winds,
wind chop too from my last 7 years of paddling and/or sailing my kayaks. And I surf too.
So ah, ya, I like to dis-agree with The kayak instructor Experts in this case we discuss.
See ya next time...
RW

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Old 28th October 2016, 10:40 PM   #345
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That video is not available in my country, RW.

I found this one, with bits from the 911 call, and from the interview CCTV. They show all the relevant parts and the kayaks. You guys have all probably seen it.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


What I get is that she has no problem with English, and there wasn't much wind.

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Old 28th October 2016, 11:01 PM   #346
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I agree Shiner.
The Bannerman weather station has it gusting pretty hard out there, but I kinda think that Angelika had already paddled back close to the safety of the Plum Point area when she made that 911 call, the wind gust sounds do not seem to be blowing nearly as hard as what that fisherman dealt with. Even is she cupped her phone, you'd hear it gusting harder, I feel...

Have a look at this video if you can, IIRC it is from Monday April 20, 2015.
It shows us what wind and wave conditions were like out there on The Hudson River
as the police searched in vain for Vinny's body:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The wind did not die down overnight after Vincent lost his life, in fact, according to the Bannerman Island weather station wind charts, the winds were gusting even harder as they searched for him the next day than the evening before.

So those waves seen splashing against the Search+Rescue boats hull the next day should have been, in my humble opinion, larger right then, than when compared to what waves conditions would have been like when Viafore went into the water many hours previously.

There has been some speculation, IIRC,
that Angelika called 911 after Vincent had already drowned,
Was it a cold blooded cover-up?

Link:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/drowned-dra...ry?id=33684847

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Old 29th October 2016, 04:27 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
That video is not available in my country, RW.

I found this one, with bits from the 911 call, and from the interview CCTV. They show all the relevant parts and the kayaks. You guys have all probably seen it.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


What I get is that she has no problem with English, and there wasn't much wind.
Her English is excellent. I find that with all russkys (that have the ability to travel), they are far better educated and interesting than the average redneck down under.
Arguing she was language challenged is a waste of time, she just loves to talk. As long as she didn't murder, I like her.
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Old 29th October 2016, 05:11 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
.
Arguing she was language challenged is a waste of time, she just loves to talk. As long as she didn't murder, I like her.
I agree with you there. Even if she did.
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Old 1st November 2016, 09:22 AM   #349
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Is Angelika lying?

Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Snip>
I actually don't think that Viafort flipped his kayak
<snip>

Whoa, whoa, whoa!?!
Watch this interesting TV News 12 video interview with Angelika,
recorded on Thursday, April 23rd, without that "cute"Detective Donnie DeQuarto being present, yet.


Surely Desert Fox,
you are not telling us in The Peanut Gallery(*)
that you now believe that Angelika Graswald is lying, right?

Watch this, linked below:
Video: Fiancee's tearful interview before her arrest

Link:
http://westchester.news12.com/news/v...est-1.10323696



"Then I just saw him flip, right in front of me".


Angelika,
when she gives us this TV interview,
has not even done her 11 Hour False Confession Interrogation yet!
Desert Fox nowadays seemingly does not believe, apparently, that Angelika saw Vincent Viafore flip.
Hmmmm.

Yet Angelika, days earlier, had apparently already lied to police,
telling them about losing her cell phone out on The River during the 911 call when she herself,
"fell, or was that flipped, also, into The River as the rescue boat approached?

Strangely, from what I've read of The Huntley Hearing this past June,
Angelika, well she was supposedly seen on the rescue boat returning a phone call, and apparently, get this, the cell phone was heard ringing at the hospital where she was being treated for hypothermia, as a police officer was also questioning her about what had happened to Vinny out there so that they might find him.
Was Angelika lying about losing her cell phone?

My opinions only.
RW





(*) - The Peanut Gallery:
A peanut gallery was, in the days of vaudeville, a nickname for the cheapest (and ostensibly rowdiest) seats in the theater, the occupants of which were often known to heckle.[1]

The least expensive snack served at the theatre would often be peanuts, which the patrons would sometimes throw at the performers on stage to show their disapproval. The phrases "no comments from the peanut gallery" or "quiet in the peanut gallery" are extensions of the name.[1]

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Old 1st November 2016, 11:35 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Shiner
You think the rescuers turned up as she hung up from the 911 call? Why?

Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
As far as I remember, she was on the phone when she dropped the phone in the water. She did not hang up as far as I remember.
<snip>

Yep, supposedly it was something like this...
Angelika told police she lost her cell phone when she went into the water.
BUT she was seen using a cell phone on the rescue boat, she apparently stated she tried to return a missed call.
And a cell phone was heard ringing at the hospital. Yet she said, IIRC, somehow that cell phone got lost at the hospital.
Odd this, maybe conflicting statements?

Don't know about it?
Read up from testimony at the Huntley Hearing.
It was courtroom testimony this past June to see if Angelika's 11 hour interrogation gets accepted in her Murder Trial.

Here is a link to most of the tweets from Nina Shutzman from the local newspaper, The Poughkeepsie Journal, interested folks might get better informed about this case we discuss:
https://twitter.com/PoJoNSchutzman

Huntley Hearing tweets start at page 139 to page 498,
though there are still some tweets missing from Nina that I've read before that she has not added here yet to this collection...

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Old 2nd November 2016, 12:03 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
From what I have read was that they were inexperienced. Also, I do not believe that they had taken a safety course or read any books on kayaking.
<snip>

Desert Fox,
Nowadays, many folks do not pay for expensive lessons or buy books to read at home. They can very easily read up, research information online on The WWW. Even watching YouTube videos can be very informative, there are plenty of instructors out there online that'll provide ya with info on kayaking safety. How do you think that I, RW 1st learned to climbed back aboard a kayak? From reading online, watching a few vidz, getting on the water, practicing. Might Vinny + Angelika have done this too?

Fun time:
Go YouTube and type this, ok?
Re-entering a sit-inside kayak

1 of the 1st videos you might see posted is this, below, from 2011.



Might Vinny and Angelika have watched this video?
This shows 1 way to get back inside your kayak if you "flipped",
and have a paddling partner, a wing-man, or wing-girl, ok?
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


See ya, RW

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Old 2nd November 2016, 12:23 AM   #352
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Heck,
if anyone who follows this case is curious about why Angelika probably un-screwed and then removed the locking screw from Vinny's kayak paddle, follow along with me, my next few posts here are kinda interesting...

If you clicked on the YouTube video I linked above,
well you'd also see other, suggested informative videos too.

Some will teach you how to climb back on board by yourself,
like I do in both my Sit-on-Top and Sit-Inside kayaks.
Good if you are limber, not too big a fella or gal.

Other rescue videos show how to use your kayak paddle and a dry bag for self rescue, good for a big guy or gal.
Pretty easy to do, you take out your dry bag, blow it up as you're in the water, attach it to your paddle,
place the paddle on your kayak for stability, and then climb back on board.

1 video headline, titled
What not to do when you fall out of a kayak,
caught my eye.

It was shot up in cold water, brrrrr, in Alaska, in 2007.
I've wondered if Vinny or Angelika ever watched this video?




Here's the video:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


This video is verrry informative.
You can see the guy deal with Cold Alaskan Water Shock,
but still he's functioning, breathing, exhaling, tryin' to self rescue,
but you just know that water is cooold!

See him re-right his kayak, get out + blow up his dry bag, attach it to his paddle, he almost nails it - gets it right, by climbing back on-board. But he falls off, try's it again, + again, but that cold water shock is starting to effect him, he's soon done for, exhausted in only under 3 minutes, needs help:
"Why don'tcha come get me".

* * * * *

You can just imagine that Vincent Viafore tried to do this too.
Get his kayak going, climb back aboard, if possible, gotta get outta the cooold 46° water.
Get back to shore. Can't do it. Finally needs help, Viafore yelled at Angelika, Call 911.
Come get me...

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Old 2nd November 2016, 12:33 AM   #353
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If you watch the video I last linked,
the gal videoing, at the 1:34 mark, says:
"This isn't going to be good".

Hmmmm, sounds familiar, where have I read this before?
Oh ya, something similar from Angelika Graswald herself!

Originally Posted by Angelika
“We were already in the water. I’m like, ‘Yo, where’s your plug. Are you kidding me? I was mad at him,” she told investigators. “His boat starting to get lower in the water… because of the waves, because of the plug not being in there… [The kayak] started to fill up, and I knew that the plug wasn’t in there. I was like ‘oh this is not good’.

Link:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-kayak-...ry?id=33696436

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Old 2nd November 2016, 12:36 AM   #354
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Still following?
Some folks who kayak and are following this case
wonder why Angelika would have removed the locking screw from Vincent's paddle?

ABC's 20/20 show had a kayaking expert named Wright show us of this:

+



Link:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-kayak-...ry?id=34973210

Esh, Wright even paddled out on The Hudson River
to show us that Vincent's paddle was still usable with-out the locking screw on it.

And I feel that if his paddle did fall apart,
Viafore could have paddled, albeit slowly, with only 1/2 of the 2 bladed paddle to use available, back to shore.
So why would Angelika remove the locking screw from Vincent's paddle?


Vincent Viafore was a big boy.
If his paddle did fall apart though,
he could not have then had a chance to perform a Paddle Self Rescue,
blowing up + using his Dry Bag + Paddle to help him climb back on board.

I am now of the opinion that Angelika did not remove the locking screw so that he could not paddle.
She removed the paddle locking screw so that Vincent could not self rescue in 46° water!

And when she had a chance, she just took his kayak paddle away from him,
paddle herself a bit away, battled her "Angels + Demons" and watched, for many minutes,
before calling 911.

My opinions only.
RW

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Old 2nd November 2016, 01:25 AM   #355
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It's getting late,
this is my last post for tonight,

Have a read - CBS News 48 Hours:
Graswald tells police she knew Viafore's kayak was missing its drain plug, which is supposed to cover a hole in his kayak. And she says while his kayak worked fine without it on the way out to the island in a calmer river, now with the waves, she was concerned about him.

"The waves are doing their thing, up and down like that," she motioned with her arms. "I saw that it started to fill up, and I knew that the plug wasn't there."

Then Viafore was suddenly in the water, holding his seat cushion that floats, Graswald says, his kayak and a dry bag. Angelika took his paddle and hooked it to her kayak.

"He's in the water, I have both paddles ... and the waves are pulling me away from him further and further. And that's when he yells, 'Call 911!'" she continued.


Link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...k-murder-case/

* * * * *

Viafore is holding his Coast Guard approved Type IV PFD which has straps,
he carried this PFD in his kayak apparently all the time, it can also be used for a seating cushion, or back protection in a kayak cock-pit seat.

So why did Vincent get his dry bag out as he held onto his PFD and his kayak?
To use it, with his paddle, for self rescue?

Why would Angelika have removed the locking screw from his paddle?
Or un-screw + then remove the drain-age plug from the low riding stern of her Fiancčs kayak?
Because she had wanted him dead?

Didn't she write this in her Journal or Dear Diary, seen below*:


Betcha Angelika was kinda pissed off when Vinny broke off their 'engagement'.
Wonder if she was mad at him too for that?

What'd Angelika say say in The Interrogation?
"Who proposes to somebody and then changes their mind?"
Hmmmm.
RW

(*) - Link:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-kayak-...ry?id=34973210

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Old 2nd November 2016, 02:49 AM   #356
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I always take a dry bag with me. Inflated and between my knees. One of the beauties of sit in kayaks is not needing to lash stuff. It just wedges in under the deck.

I use a 15 litre one. Usually only has phone, wallet, keys, and a towel for padding. Sometimes a water bottle too. The whole point of it is too have a flotation device handy at all times. For yourself, or if someone needs your help.

I don't know how common that is in the states, but here I've seen many do it.

Similar to this

http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/...978&manfID=165
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Old 2nd November 2016, 07:56 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
I always take a dry bag with me. Inflated and between my knees. One of the beauties of sit in kayaks is not needing to lash stuff. It just wedges in under the deck.

I use a 15 litre one. Usually only has phone, wallet, keys, and a towel for padding. Sometimes a water bottle too. The whole point of it is too have a flotation device handy at all times. For yourself, or if someone needs your help.

I don't know how common that is in the states, but here I've seen many do it.

Similar to this

http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/...978&manfID=165

Hi Shiner,
Glad for another kayakers input.
I have a Sea to Summit 13 liter 'Big River' Dry Bag,
pictured in your link above. Good bag, mine is yellow.

Directions:
To seal, roll at least 3 times and clip buckle.
Simple, and the bag will indeed hold air inside if need be, as you noted, for floatation.

I never keep my dry bag inflated, it's always rolled up + closed out there on the water,
best way to keep things, like electronics - a small DSLR, video camera or lens, cell phone, car keys with remote, ya know, dry out there when on the water.

Here's a pic of my dry bag next to my SPL waterhousing:


So recall for a moment that the main reason that Angelika and Vinny went out to Bannerman Island that fateful Sunday was for a sexy photo shoot. They had to have brought along a camera, right?

Where was it stored?
Just tossed into the kayak? Put in a plastic bag, maybe a couple even, wrapped in a towel? Or placed inside Vinny's blue Dry Bag, along with cell phone, his car keys maybe, rolled up tightly and then safety clipped closed?

Here's a pic of Vincent's blue kayak, facing the camera on the shore:


Vincent's blue Dry Bag can be seen standing up-right in the cock-pit seating area,
as too his blue Type IV Rescue PFD behind it.
Nice sized Dry Bag...


What happened to the Dry Bag?
Or any gear inside of it, like a camera, his cell phone, his car keys?
Might he have opened up his dry bag, quickly given these items to Angelika, as his kayak was sinking, half or all the way swamped with cooold water, so he could blow it up and try self rescue? If he did give Angelika any of those items, well that'd tell us that Angelika had to have gotten right next to him out there after he went into the waters of The Hudson River. Whatever the case may be, he could not self rescue and get his kayak going again, so he supposedly soon yelled at Angelika to call 911...

Interesting tidbit from reading Nina Schutzman's live courtroom Huntley Hearing tweets is that Angelika did indeed have Vincent's car keys, as noted by a police officer who gave her a ride to Vinny's Jeep after she got out of the hospital that night and the search for Vinny continued out there on the waters. The police officer couldn't apparently find his cell phone though, I wonder if there were photo's from Bannerman Island on it...

Last edited by RWVBWL; 2nd November 2016 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:46 AM   #358
RWVBWL
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Why does the Dry Bag matter?

New York State Police Investigator Donald DeQuarto,
vs
Angelika Graswald

In this snippet from The Interrogation,
a person who kayaks and closely follows this case we discuss will note how vague Angelika is
when discussing what she did to help Vincent Viafore out there on The River:

Investigator DeQuarto:
You watched him drown. I know it's difficult. I know this.

Angelika Graswald:
No. I didn't just watch him drown. I tried to do something about it.

Investigator DeQuarto:
Now did you really want to save him?

Angelika Graswald:
Yeah. Yeah. Somehow.
If he did not say call 911, I would have ******* paddled the **** out of myself and got to him somehow.

Investigator DeQuarto:
That's a little different from when you told me earlier though. Why?
Etc.

Link to video:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-kayak-...ry?id=34973210

* * * * *

If Angelika had been given Vincent's car keys, or his cellphone, or a camera from Vincent's Dry Bag before he inflated it to try, while using his paddle, and climb back onto and into his capsized kayak that she says he flipped, or she had even tried to buddy up her kayak next to his, stabilizing it enough so he might climb back aboard his kayak and escape the cold 46°water, she would have been right next to him. Well why doesn't Angelika tells of this?

In my kayaking opinion,
Angelika has always been pretty vague about what happened out there
and is hiding many details about what really went down on The Hudson River that evening.
I wonder why?
RW

Last edited by RWVBWL; 2nd November 2016 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 10th March 2017, 03:01 PM   #359
Desert Fox
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I thought this article should be posted
https://www.outsideonline.com/215630...nvicted-murder
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Old 11th March 2017, 04:11 PM   #360
whoanellie
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I thought this article should be posted
https://www.outsideonline.com/215630...nvicted-murder
Thanks.
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