IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags jeremy bamber , Julie Mugford , murder cases , Nevill Bamber , Sheila Bamber

Reply
Old 25th October 2019, 02:14 AM   #361
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
"Recent twin studies show persuasive evidence that both genetic and environmental factors contribute to antisocial behaviour. However the genetic evidence indicates that there is no single gene, or even a small number of genes, that predict an increased risk of antisocial behaviour.Nov 9, 2017"

Fortunately the Court won't speculate if Jeremy achieves a new appeal. On the face of it he has strong evidence as to the probability of a 2nd call - so his account becomes more credible. There is also fresh forensic evidence, or I should say freshly understood.

When police make accusations about staged crime scenes in cases of false convictions it is to explain evidence pointing away from an accused. The falsely accused get blamed in every way possible - just like you and a rogue criminal gene you imagined.
You could say the converse, that the dead woman is falsely accused of the murder by Bamber defenders for having had mental health issues, which had no correlation to the likelihood of being a murderer, who would kill her own two eight-year old twins and her adopted parents, and then kill herself. It is possible she suffered severe depression that might have unbalanced her in such a manner. However, AIUI the issues surrounding the silencer tends to rule out suicide by Sheila Cafell.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 02:57 AM   #362
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You could say the converse, that the dead woman is falsely accused of the murder by Bamber defenders for having had mental health issues, which had no correlation to the likelihood of being a murderer, who would kill her own two eight-year old twins and her adopted parents, and then kill herself. It is possible she suffered severe depression that might have unbalanced her in such a manner. However, AIUI the issues surrounding the silencer tends to rule out suicide by Sheila Cafell.
This is an unusual case, the scratches under the mantle piece allegedly by a silencer in a struggle are not possible in a struggle. Police crime scene photos on the day show an umblemished underside to the mantlepiece.
As Sherlock Holmes would say eliminate the imposssible, whatever is left no matter how unlikely is the solution.
This is that the mantlepiece was deliberately scratched with the silencer in the days after, almost certainly by family members who knew that Jeremy Bamber had them over a barrel and their tenure on the land was over. No pun intended.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2019, 10:30 PM   #363
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You could say the converse, that the dead woman is falsely accused of the murder by Bamber defenders for having had mental health issues, which had no correlation to the likelihood of being a murderer, who would kill her own two eight-year old twins and her adopted parents, and then kill herself. It is possible she suffered severe depression that might have unbalanced her in such a manner. However, AIUI the issues surrounding the silencer tends to rule out suicide by Sheila Cafell.
No, the point is what the new evidence presents. It fits together with Jeremy's account, the 2nd phone call the Judge told the Jury to ignore. I put the previous evidence and the new evidence from the article in continuity to show it's a complete defense the Jury did not hear.

"Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."

"His legal team argue it shows Bamber could not have made a 3.26am call from the farm and returned to his home 3.5 miles away in Goldhanger to make the second call, the Daily Mirror reported."

"The new note is said to refer to a call, timed at "approximately 3.37am", from Bamber."

"The jury at his Chelmsford Crown Court trial were directed to disregard Bamber's claims that he had called police from his home."

The solicitors have said it is a complex case. Part of that complexity is the forensics, including hopefully the trajectory of the shots which killed Nevill - all of which adds to the weight that a fresh Jury could attach to proof from the files that there was a 2nd call.

Essex police well understood that a 2nd call was not helpful to the case so the details of it got lost. If Jeremy knew there was no 2nd call he would not have claimed so. Unfortunately for him police 'lost it' to damage his credibility on that issue and therefore enhanced the case against him.

From what I recall about the case from a lot of reading around 4 years ago according to my notes, the evidence is weak, particularly around the 'secret' silencer, the wounds to Nevill, June and Sheila. These details of a potential recorded 2nd call - just like Jeremy said, weaken it further. It will be great if this case is given a full analysis again - as science has jumped forward in its understanding of forensics. It also comes back to me that first shot to Sheila was not immediately fatal according to a forensic pathologists and would not have prevented her shooting herself again.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2019, 11:28 PM   #364
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
No, the point is what the new evidence presents. It fits together with Jeremy's account, the 2nd phone call the Judge told the Jury to ignore. I put the previous evidence and the new evidence from the article in continuity to show it's a complete defense the Jury did not hear.

"Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."

"His legal team argue it shows Bamber could not have made a 3.26am call from the farm and returned to his home 3.5 miles away in Goldhanger to make the second call, the Daily Mirror reported."

"The new note is said to refer to a call, timed at "approximately 3.37am", from Bamber."

"The jury at his Chelmsford Crown Court trial were directed to disregard Bamber's claims that he had called police from his home."

The solicitors have said it is a complex case. Part of that complexity is the forensics, including hopefully the trajectory of the shots which killed Nevill - all of which adds to the weight that a fresh Jury could attach to proof from the files that there was a 2nd call.

Essex police well understood that a 2nd call was not helpful to the case so the details of it got lost. If Jeremy knew there was no 2nd call he would not have claimed so. Unfortunately for him police 'lost it' to damage his credibility on that issue and therefore enhanced the case against him.

From what I recall about the case from a lot of reading around 4 years ago according to my notes, the evidence is weak, particularly around the 'secret' silencer, the wounds to Nevill, June and Sheila. These details of a potential recorded 2nd call - just like Jeremy said, weaken it further. It will be great if this case is given a full analysis again - as science has jumped forward in its understanding of forensics. It also comes back to me that first shot to Sheila was not immediately fatal according to a forensic pathologists and would not have prevented her shooting herself again.
"approximately 3.37am" tends to suggest whoever wrote it did not have a watch, hence the estimate.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 01:26 AM   #365
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,668
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post

"Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."

"His legal team argue it shows Bamber could not have made a 3.26am call from the farm and returned to his home 3.5 miles away in Goldhanger to make the second call, the Daily Mirror reported."
What’s the reason that he couldn’t have travelled three and a half miles in (approximately) 11 minutes?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 04:22 AM   #366
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What’s the reason that he couldn’t have travelled three and a half miles in (approximately) 11 minutes?


And that's precisely what Bamber obviously did do.

He reasoned that if, as the very last thing he did after the murders, he placed a call to his own house from the farm - which he'd claim was his father calling him in a panic - then immediately left and cycled at highest speed back to his house before immediately calling the police upon his arrival home, he could blur the lines and make it seem difficult for him to have done things in this manner. And he'd thus have reasoned that if he could pull that trick off, it would - in and of itself - tend to strongly support his version of events (i.e. that he was contacted by his father in panic in the middle of the night saying that Sheila was going to kill them all, and that this in turn prompted him to call the police).

Of course, one of the (many) elephants in the room here is quite why Bamber - assuming for a moment that one believed his version of events - waited those 11-odd minutes within his house before calling the police. If your father called you in a panic to say your sister was going crazy with a rifle and trying to kill everyone in the house, I'd say you'd call 999 immediately the call with your father terminated. Why on Earth, in that scenario, would you effectively do nothing for those 11 minutes before alerting the authorities? And what's more, I believe that when Bamber did call the police, he phoned the local station and not the emergency 999 number.


Look: this case has become a little opaque because of the low quality of the police response on the night and their subsequent investigation. But there's still more than enough reliable evidence, taken as a whole, to safely convict Bamber BARD.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 06:18 AM   #367
Planigale
Philosopher
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 6,753
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"approximately 3.37am" tends to suggest whoever wrote it did not have a watch, hence the estimate.
It may also mean that they only recorded hours and minutes and not seconds. Therefore it would be inaccurate to say it was 03:37:00 exactly. It might be 03:36:31 to 03:37:29 or 03:37:00 to 03:37:59 depending on local practice.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 02:46 PM   #368
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And that's precisely what Bamber obviously did do.

He reasoned that if, as the very last thing he did after the murders, he placed a call to his own house from the farm - which he'd claim was his father calling him in a panic - then immediately left and cycled at highest speed back to his house before immediately calling the police upon his arrival home, he could blur the lines and make it seem difficult for him to have done things in this manner. And he'd thus have reasoned that if he could pull that trick off, it would - in and of itself - tend to strongly support his version of events (i.e. that he was contacted by his father in panic in the middle of the night saying that Sheila was going to kill them all, and that this in turn prompted him to call the police).

Of course, one of the (many) elephants in the room here is quite why Bamber - assuming for a moment that one believed his version of events - waited those 11-odd minutes within his house before calling the police. If your father called you in a panic to say your sister was going crazy with a rifle and trying to kill everyone in the house, I'd say you'd call 999 immediately the call with your father terminated. Why on Earth, in that scenario, would you effectively do nothing for those 11 minutes before alerting the authorities? And what's more, I believe that when Bamber did call the police, he phoned the local station and not the emergency 999 number.


Look: this case has become a little opaque because of the low quality of the police response on the night and their subsequent investigation. But there's still more than enough reliable evidence, taken as a whole, to safely convict Bamber BARD.
Except he wasn't there. MikeG made a brave attempt at constructing how Neville received 8 bullets from Jeremy and in that process proved conclusively that it was impossible. Holly Goodhead on the other hand has deconstructed the trajectories and bullet casings conclusively showing it was Sheila. But judges are far too obsessed with law to use common sense. The case is a 32 year obscenity.

Last edited by Samson; 27th October 2019 at 03:17 PM. Reason: corrected spelling of obscenity
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 02:48 PM   #369
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,668
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And that's precisely what Bamber obviously did do.

He reasoned that if, as the very last thing he did after the murders, he placed a call to his own house from the farm - which he'd claim was his father calling him in a panic - then immediately left and cycled at highest speed back to his house before immediately calling the police upon his arrival home.
Weren't both calls to the police?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 09:07 PM   #370
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"approximately 3.37am" tends to suggest whoever wrote it did not have a watch, hence the estimate.
Or equally, did have a watch but did not record the exact time. However, it's the 2nd call where formerly, apart from Jeremy - there was said to be only one.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 09:12 PM   #371
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What’s the reason that he couldn’t have travelled three and a half miles in (approximately) 11 minutes?

Don't remember at the moment sorry. Possibly without a car because there was mentioned made of a bike but Jeremy when arriving after police was in a car. One of the buffs will recall the details.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 09:28 PM   #372
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And that's precisely what Bamber obviously did do.

He reasoned that if, as the very last thing he did after the murders, he placed a call to his own house from the farm - which he'd claim was his father calling him in a panic - then immediately left and cycled at highest speed back to his house before immediately calling the police upon his arrival home, he could blur the lines and make it seem difficult for him to have done things in this manner. And he'd thus have reasoned that if he could pull that trick off, it would - in and of itself - tend to strongly support his version of events (i.e. that he was contacted by his father in panic in the middle of the night saying that Sheila was going to kill them all, and that this in turn prompted him to call the police).

Of course, one of the (many) elephants in the room here is quite why Bamber - assuming for a moment that one believed his version of events - waited those 11-odd minutes within his house before calling the police. If your father called you in a panic to say your sister was going crazy with a rifle and trying to kill everyone in the house, I'd say you'd call 999 immediately the call with your father terminated. Why on Earth, in that scenario, would you effectively do nothing for those 11 minutes before alerting the authorities? And what's more, I believe that when Bamber did call the police, he phoned the local station and not the emergency 999 number.


Look: this case has become a little opaque because of the low quality of the police response on the night and their subsequent investigation. But there's still more than enough reliable evidence, taken as a whole, to safely convict Bamber BARD.
2 things there. A call in the small hours may not elicit a sharply thought out response. On reflection what he may have first dismissed may have made reconsider. I can't speculate on how many calls are made to local police stations in those time rather than to the emergency number. But overall there was no evidence of a 2nd call, apart from Jeremy's claim - and now there is.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2019, 09:30 PM   #373
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Except he wasn't there. MikeG made a brave attempt at constructing how Neville received 8 bullets from Jeremy and in that process proved conclusively that it was impossible. Holly Goodhead on the other hand has deconstructed the trajectories and bullet casings conclusively showing it was Sheila. But judges are far too obsessed with law to use common sense. The case is a 32 year obscenity.
You're a little confused about that conversation as to the stairs, go back and read.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2019, 05:02 AM   #374
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,668
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Don't remember at the moment sorry. Possibly without a car because there was mentioned made of a bike but Jeremy when arriving after police was in a car. One of the buffs will recall the details.
Depends on the roads, but an average of 20mph is not impossible on a bike, especially if fueled by adrenaline.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 12:24 AM   #375
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Depends on the roads, but an average of 20mph is not impossible on a bike, especially if fueled by adrenaline.
That shouldn't be an issue for the Court. The issue is whether the evidence of a 2nd call denied by the Crown, and in fact the Court, would be material to a Jury. That it was denied by the Crown, and there were instructions from the Court to ignore it, is in favor of Jeremy. Then there is the fresh purchase on the forensics, including trajectory of rifle shots and a very plausible reason that the scratch said to be caused by the rifle being swung at Nevill in the kitchen could not have happened, another discovery a few years ago.

It will be very good for this case to have a robust review again.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 02:44 AM   #376
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
You're a little confused about that conversation as to the stairs, go back and read.
No need to go back and read because this is what happened, I have no doubt I have posted before.
Sheila Caffel retired to bed and found her period had begun.
She went downstairs and made a noise with water, buckets, and a tampon applicator was found in the living room.
Neville came downstairs to confirm the noise was not intruders, and the argument about the care of the twins was reignited.
Jeremy had left the gun loaded in the kitchen, it was seized by Sheila, Neville dialed Jeremy saying Sheila has gone crazy with the gun.
Sheila shot June in bed 5 times so Neville ascended the stairs, Sheila swivelled on the landing and shot Neville twice in the mouth, he turned and fled down the stairs was shot in the shoulder and elbow, finally collapsing in the coal scuttle. Sheila reloaded and shot him four times, returned upstairs to find June had managed to move towards the door, she shot her three more times. The twins slept through. She figured all was lost and they should be despatched and reloaded and shot them multiple times.
Then she washed herself, eventually the police surrounded, and when all was lost she tried to shoot herself leaning against the bedside cabinet, but the angle was wrong and she shot herself through the neck nowhere near the brain. She realigned and shot herself through the brain.

That is what happened.

Then the relatives orchestrated the mantelpiece scratches, they were desperate because the ne'er do well was in control of the farm.
Of course he was not a ne'er do well, he was harvesting grain all day and trying to shoot rabbits later.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:05 AM   #377
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,668
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
That shouldn't be an issue for the Court.
No, I wasn't implying it was a factor in whether there were grounds for an appeal, it was a more basic question about the case, as it's not one I've really read much about before.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 05:57 AM   #378
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Weren't both calls to the police?


I thought the first (alleged) call was from the farmhouse to Bamber's house. This was the pretext for Bamber to become concerned and to then call the police. Otherwise, how would he have known (per his version of events) that "Sheila was going berserk"? And how/why would Bamber have called the police at all that night, if he hadn't "found out" about what was happening at the farm? The police didn't call Bamber - he called them.

I think Bamber may well have thought about, and discounted, the idea of doing the shootings then just going quickly home and doing absolutely nothing until the next morning, whereupon, on the pretext of trundling over to the farm on a routine daytime casual visit, he would come upon the bloody scene. And I think he may have discounted that option on the grounds that this would be a more reasonable suspect, whereas if he called the police in "panic" and "concern" on the night he reasoned (IMO) that the police would probably never suspect that the true killer would have acted in that way.

IIRC there was also the matter of the phone being off the hook in the farmhouse, and Bamber telling police that his father either dropped the phone or had it knocked out of his hand, and after a while Bamber terminated the call at his end. But (again, if the above is correct) analogue residential lines at that time were controlled by the caller. If the caller neglected to terminate the call, the line to the called party stayed open, and there was nothing that the called party could do about it. The called party could not get a dial tone - they would have stayed connected to the calling party.

So if Bamber's version of events in respect of his father's phone call was to be believed, he should not have been able to make another outgoing call to the police 11-12 minutes later. What I think actually happened was that after placing the call to his own house from within the farmhouse (after having finished the murders, and on his way out), he put the phone handset back down onto the base (thus closing the line), but then thought it might look more authentic and dramatic if the phone were hanging off the hook, as if his father had had the phone knocked from his hand in a struggle.

Of course it's possible that, if that was what actually occurred (and presuming for a moment that Sheila was indeed the killer) that Sheila - having knocked the phone from her (much bigger and stronger...) father's hand, had had the wherewithall to depress the hook on the base unit with her hand in order to terminate the call and close the line. But then again, Bamber's version has his mentally-unstable sister going berserk in the house. Would someone in such a state really have been thinking clearly enough to depress the hook (while still not replacing the handset onto the base unit)?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 10:29 AM   #379
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
No need to go back and read because this is what happened, I have no doubt I have posted before.
Sheila Caffel retired to bed and found her period had begun.
She went downstairs and made a noise with water, buckets, and a tampon applicator was found in the living room.
Neville came downstairs to confirm the noise was not intruders, and the argument about the care of the twins was reignited.
Jeremy had left the gun loaded in the kitchen, it was seized by Sheila, Neville dialed Jeremy saying Sheila has gone crazy with the gun.
Sheila shot June in bed 5 times so Neville ascended the stairs, Sheila swivelled on the landing and shot Neville twice in the mouth, he turned and fled down the stairs was shot in the shoulder and elbow, finally collapsing in the coal scuttle. Sheila reloaded and shot him four times, returned upstairs to find June had managed to move towards the door, she shot her three more times. The twins slept through. She figured all was lost and they should be despatched and reloaded and shot them multiple times.
Then she washed herself, eventually the police surrounded, and when all was lost she tried to shoot herself leaning against the bedside cabinet, but the angle was wrong and she shot herself through the neck nowhere near the brain. She realigned and shot herself through the brain.

That is what happened.

Then the relatives orchestrated the mantelpiece scratches, they were desperate because the ne'er do well was in control of the farm.
Of course he was not a ne'er do well, he was harvesting grain all day and trying to shoot rabbits later.
That's convenient. Having arrived at a scene of murder and mayhem, the relatives said to each other, 'Looks like Jezza is going to inherit the farm now both the parents are slain. Oh, no. I know, let's put a scratch on the mantlepiece and pin the murders on Jez. I never did like him anyway.'
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 10:52 AM   #380
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,668
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I thought the first (alleged) call was from the farmhouse to Bamber's house. This was the pretext for Bamber to become concerned and to then call the police. Otherwise, how would he have known (per his version of events) that "Sheila was going berserk"? And how/why would Bamber have called the police at all that night, if he hadn't "found out" about what was happening at the farm? The police didn't call Bamber - he called them.

I was going on what the newspaper article that Fixit referred to said, though they may have been confused, too.

Quote:
"Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."

"His legal team argue it shows Bamber could not have made a 3.26am call from the farm and returned to his home 3.5 miles away in Goldhanger to make the second call, the Daily Mirror reported."
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 03:35 PM   #381
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
It is curious that the case could devolve to matters as banal as phone logs to determine whether Jeremy Bamber engaged on a plan that no thinking man would hope to succeed in. If the phone logs prove he was where the police claim he was at different times there would be no debate, they would be unequivocal.

He didn't do it, he would have to have truly believed he could slaughter his family and then persuade his sister to pose gracefully in a suicide pose as he shot her, with her mother's body 6 feet away, leave no evidence and have not a scratch or forensic trail to implicate him.

It is ridiculous but not uncommon for police and prosecutors to get this sort of thing by dopey jurors and appeal court judges.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 03:47 PM   #382
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Administrator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 16,711
I must say I'm finding all of these possible phone calls confusing.

All, some or none of these might be confirmed by BT records, and the fact that it was possible to make one's own phone ring and answerphones can pick up calls does muddy the waters a lot.

3.00am or thereabouts: Jeremy to Julie Mugford
3.26: farmhouse to Jeremy's house
3.26: farmhouse to emergency services
3.37: Jeremy's house to non-emergency police number

Is that all of the calls that are alleged to have been made? Which if any of these calls are confirmed by BT records?
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2019, 05:37 PM   #383
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
I must say I'm finding all of these possible phone calls confusing.

All, some or none of these might be confirmed by BT records, and the fact that it was possible to make one's own phone ring and answerphones can pick up calls does muddy the waters a lot.

3.00am or thereabouts: Jeremy to Julie Mugford
3.26: farmhouse to Jeremy's house
3.26: farmhouse to emergency services
3.37: Jeremy's house to non-emergency police number

Is that all of the calls that are alleged to have been made? Which if any of these calls are confirmed by BT records?
Hi Agatha,
With the reservation of not being entirely sure, I think your list of calls is correct. From the article concerning new proceedings it is revealed above (see my post on the 27th Oct @ 6.30) that the call by Nevill on your list was not made: "Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."
If I have it correct:
3.00 call uncontested
3.26 to farmhouse to cottage made but debated (as being from Jeremy not Nevill)
3.26 to emergency services by Nevill - said not to have happened. Now new evidence showing that it may well have happened.
3.37 No contest but said to be 'suspicious' because to local police.
What some of us are struggling with is whether the 'new' alleged confirmation of the previously denied 3.26 call (Nevill to police) was made points to innocence.
Without trying to be controversial, it suited the Crown case that the 3.26 call was not made - and would be no surprise if some police considered it should be hidden.

Cheers.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2019, 05:50 PM   #384
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's convenient. Having arrived at a scene of murder and mayhem, the relatives said to each other, 'Looks like Jezza is going to inherit the farm now both the parents are slain. Oh, no. I know, let's put a scratch on the mantlepiece and pin the murders on Jez. I never did like him anyway.'
Police were first to arrive at the crime scene. Don't think there is any debate about that so no suggestion they set the crime scene. No way of knowing when the scratched arrived, but it can be ascertained not to have happened as the result of the rifle being swung at Nevill as was the Crown's case. The reason for that, and I have seen the photo of the scratch is that the scratch can't have started from an edge in the joinery if swung in an arch. As for the silencer not to have been discovered by police results in requiring a leap of faith.

I'm fixing on points in continuity that are supported by a 2nd call which is how a Court would be expected to look at it - in isolation and then in continuity with other known facts. if the call becomes a likely fact - Jeremy could be declared not guilty BRD by a fresh jury.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2019, 05:59 PM   #385
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I thought the first (alleged) call was from the farmhouse to Bamber's house. This was the pretext for Bamber to become concerned and to then call the police. Otherwise, how would he have known (per his version of events) that "Sheila was going berserk"? And how/why would Bamber have called the police at all that night, if he hadn't "found out" about what was happening at the farm? The police didn't call Bamber - he called them.

I think Bamber may well have thought about, and discounted, the idea of doing the shootings then just going quickly home and doing absolutely nothing until the next morning, whereupon, on the pretext of trundling over to the farm on a routine daytime casual visit, he would come upon the bloody scene. And I think he may have discounted that option on the grounds that this would be a more reasonable suspect, whereas if he called the police in "panic" and "concern" on the night he reasoned (IMO) that the police would probably never suspect that the true killer would have acted in that way.

IIRC there was also the matter of the phone being off the hook in the farmhouse, and Bamber telling police that his father either dropped the phone or had it knocked out of his hand, and after a while Bamber terminated the call at his end. But (again, if the above is correct) analogue residential lines at that time were controlled by the caller. If the caller neglected to terminate the call, the line to the called party stayed open, and there was nothing that the called party could do about it. The called party could not get a dial tone - they would have stayed connected to the calling party.

So if Bamber's version of events in respect of his father's phone call was to be believed, he should not have been able to make another outgoing call to the police 11-12 minutes later. What I think actually happened was that after placing the call to his own house from within the farmhouse (after having finished the murders, and on his way out), he put the phone handset back down onto the base (thus closing the line), but then thought it might look more authentic and dramatic if the phone were hanging off the hook, as if his father had had the phone knocked from his hand in a struggle.

Of course it's possible that, if that was what actually occurred (and presuming for a moment that Sheila was indeed the killer) that Sheila - having knocked the phone from her (much bigger and stronger...) father's hand, had had the wherewithall to depress the hook on the base unit with her hand in order to terminate the call and close the line. But then again, Bamber's version has his mentally-unstable sister going berserk in the house. Would someone in such a state really have been thinking clearly enough to depress the hook (while still not replacing the handset onto the base unit)?
All of this is impacted by the said information found on file of the 2nd 3.26 call. That is why it is important, it requires no assumptions as to what people believe other people thought.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2019, 04:40 AM   #386
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
he would have to have truly believed he could slaughter his family and then persuade his sister to pose gracefully in a suicide pose as he shot her, with her mother's body 6 feet away, leave no evidence and have not a scratch or forensic trail to implicate him.
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2019, 12:21 PM   #387
Essexman
Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.


That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

Essexman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 12:21 AM   #388
Fixit
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

Could I trouble you for that report? We must deal with facts.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 04:42 AM   #389
Essexman
Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 157
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Hi Agatha,
With the reservation of not being entirely sure, I think your list of calls is correct. From the article concerning new proceedings it is revealed above (see my post on the 27th Oct @ 6.30) that the call by Nevill on your list was not made: "Bamber had argued two calls were made to police on the night of the murders, one from himself and another from his father, but the prosecution at his trial had alleged there was only one which was made by Bamber at 3.26am from the scene."
If I have it correct:
3.00 call uncontested
3.26 to farmhouse to cottage made but debated (as being from Jeremy not Nevill)
3.26 to emergency services by Nevill - said not to have happened. Now new evidence showing that it may well have happened.
3.37 No contest but said to be 'suspicious' because to local police.
What some of us are struggling with is whether the 'new' alleged confirmation of the previously denied 3.26 call (Nevill to police) was made points to innocence.
Without trying to be controversial, it suited the Crown case that the 3.26 call was not made - and would be no surprise if some police considered it should be hidden.

Cheers.
This is roughly the telephone sequence.


3:22am Control room

JB: You’ve got to help me, my father has just phoned me saying ‘please come over, your
sister has gone crazy and has the gun’ then the phone went dead. My father sounded
terrified, I don’t think he was kidding.

West: Where does your father live?

JB: White House farm Tolleshunt D'arcy.

West: Does your sister have access to any guns?

JB: Yes my father has a collection of 12 bores and 4.10s and .22 rifles. Look my sister has a
history of mental illness. You’ve got to help me.

West: Hold the line please, I’ll contact our information room and find out where the nearest
unit is.


3:26am Information room

"I received a telephone call on the internal line. The officer at the other end announced
himself as PC 1990 at Chelmsford.

Mr Bamber was worried about a phone call that he had received from his father at
Tolleshunt D'arcy. I cannot remember the direct speech that was used but I was informed
that the telephone call had been received from Mr Bamber and that Mr Bamber's daughter
had gone berserk and had taken one of his guns and that the line had gone dead.

PC 1990 also informed me that Mr BAMBER Junior had stated that there was a collection of
guns at the house. I recorded these as being Shotguns and 410's."


3:30am Witham Police Station

"About 03:30 am I was on duty at Witham Police Station in company Police Sergeant 36
BEWS and Police Constable 1509 MYALL. when I received a message over my personal radio,
from Chelmsford Police Station to the effect that a telephone call had been received from a
Mr Jeremy BAMBER, who had said that he had received a telephone call from his father Mr
Neville BAMBER of "White House Farm" Tolleshunt D'Arcy, saying that his sister was going
berserk and that she had a gun."


3:34am Control room

West: Hello

JB: Christ. You took a long time

West: I have contacted my Information room and Witham Police Station and a car is on its way
to your father's address at Tolleshunt D'Arcy. What's your father’s telephone number?

JB: Maldon 860204

West: How old is your father?

JB: Sixty two

West: Do you know who’s in the house?

JB: My father obviously , my mother and Sheila. Look, when my father rang me he sounded
terrified, I don’t think he's kidding about. I tried ringing him back and I can't get any reply.

West: Will you go to the house and wait for the Police officers and liaise with them there?

JB: Shall I go now?

West: Yes, the car from Witham won't take long. Can I have your telephone number?
JB: Goldhanger 88645


3:39am (or 3:19am)

JB: There’s something wrong at home. I don’t know what to do

Julie: Go to bed. bye honey

JB: I love you lots



3:35 - CA07 leaves Witham
3:41 - Jeremy leaves his house
3:47 - CA07 drives past Jeremy.
3:48 - CA07 arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 48mph
3:49 - Jeremy arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 31mph
Essexman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2019, 08:12 AM   #390
IsThisTheLife
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,233
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Banner was, and remains, an egotistical psychopath who couldn't believe his plan would fail; he was unable to comprehend that he wasn't as intelligent as he thought. Hence he was caught and convicted.
Even the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team diagnosed him as a psychopath.

That is, actually, a gratuitous assertion that is the complete opposite of the truth (AKA trolling).

He's been evaluated by at least three different psychologists over the years, one of whom interviewed him for many hours over a period of several weeks (after his conviction) and who came to the unequivocal conclusion that Bamber exhibited no antisocial personality traits whatever [ETA >> as did all the others].

Last edited by IsThisTheLife; 9th November 2019 at 08:15 AM.
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2019, 01:32 PM   #391
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 10,281
catsmate was talking about "Banner", not Bamber.

Probably referring to The Hulk's alter ego.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2019, 02:33 PM   #392
IsThisTheLife
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,233
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
catsmate was talking about "Banner", not Bamber.

Probably referring to The Hulk's alter ego.
I thought I'd leave that to someone pithier than me.
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2019, 02:42 PM   #393
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
catsmate was talking about "Banner", not Bamber.

Probably referring to The Hulk's alter ego.

Auto-correct...
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2019, 11:44 AM   #394
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Does "dropped the ball" now mean "reached a conclusion I don't agree with"?

There was no ball to drop. The crime-scene was probably the most mis-handled one in the history of modern British crime, but even that couldn't disguise Bamber's guilt.
This. Not that his obvious guilt will stop the Usual Suspects from trying to drag their opinion on the imprisonment of the vicious psychopath Banner into this matter.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2019, 12:34 PM   #395
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
This. Not that his obvious guilt will stop the Usual Suspects from trying to drag their opinion on the imprisonment of the vicious psychopath Banner into this matter.
The indications are the commission Andrew Little is steering will eliminate the structural flaws built into the English model, that allowed for the atrocious miscarriage in Bamber to perpetuate.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2019, 12:12 PM   #396
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The indications are the commission Andrew Little is steering will eliminate the structural flaws built into the English model, that allowed for the atrocious miscarriage in Bamber to perpetuate.


Samson: who in your opinion carried out all the murders in this case? Do you think the murderer also committed suicide within the farmhouse? And if so, how do you propose that this person committed suicide?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2019, 03:53 AM   #397
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Samson: who in your opinion carried out all the murders in this case? Do you think the murderer also committed suicide within the farmhouse? And if so, how do you propose that this person committed suicide?
Elementary my dear Watson.
I have posted a few times how Sheila Caffell was confronted by June and Neville the simple notion that she should be relieved of all child caring duties.

Then they all ended dead in a few hours.

Just be patient for the perfectly true narrative. Jeremy Bamber is totally innocent and quite patient.

I bet both my arms Jeremy Bamber had nothing to do with these crimes that were capitilised by Anne Eaton.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd December 2019, 09:58 AM   #398
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Elementary my dear Watson.
I have posted a few times how Sheila Caffell was confronted by June and Neville the simple notion that she should be relieved of all child caring duties.

Then they all ended dead in a few hours.

Just be patient for the perfectly true narrative. Jeremy Bamber is totally innocent and quite patient.

I bet both my arms Jeremy Bamber had nothing to do with these crimes that were capitilised by Anne Eaton.


But you didn't really answer my questions:

1) Who, in your opinion, carried out these killings?

2) If the person in your answer to (1) was one of those found dead within the farmhouse, then exactly how did that person kill himself/herself?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th January 2020, 06:49 PM   #399
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
It was Sheila Caffel.
She misaligned inflicted flesh wound then figured where her brain was located.
It is far more likely Amanda Knox is guilty it is incomprehensible to me how anyone on ISF can believe in this appalling hoax.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th January 2020, 03:36 PM   #400
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 20,637
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It was Sheila Caffel.
She misaligned inflicted flesh wound then figured where her brain was located.
It is far more likely Amanda Knox is guilty it is incomprehensible to me how anyone on ISF can believe in this appalling hoax.


So if it was Sheila Caffell......

..... one of the first questions to be addressed is: did she shoot everyone but herself with or without the silencer on the rifle? Because if she didn't, then whichever way round you order the killings, it's more-or-less impossible to conclude that some or all of the other family members would have woken with the sounds of the first shots in the sequence (an unsilenced .22 rifle, fired in a quiet house in the middle of the night, most certainly makes enough noise to travel through closed bedroom doors and induce a wake impulse).

Since June Bamber was out of her bed (but not by far) when she was shot, and Neville Bamber made it all the way downstairs, one might fairly guess - in a "Sheila did it, using an unsilenced rifle for all shots" scenario - that the children were shot first in their beds, and that June and Neville were woken by the shots. But there are big problems with that scenario. The biggest problem is related to the reloading of the rifle. Sheila would either have had to reload the rifle's magazine (for the first reload of two) in-between shooting the children and shooting June/Neville, or she'd have had to reload in the midst of the struggle with Neville. If the former, the elapsed time would raise issues just how and where June and Neville were confronted and shot; if the latter, Neville would almost-certainly have had enough time and ability to overpower Sheila. And that's before we even get to the fact that Sheila would have had to reload a second time at some point as well.....

But if Sheila did it, while using a silencer for all the shots except the two which she inflicted upon herself (which would, on the face of it, fit far better with the positions of the bodies etc), then one would have to explain why she would have removed the silencer from the gun, placed it downstairs in the box, then shot herself. If, when she came to take her own life at the end, she had realised that she couldn't place the gun under her chin and reach the trigger with the silencer attached (as was the case), then why would she not simply have unscrewed the silencer and left it lying beside her? What possible reason could there have been for her to have gone to the trouble of replacing it into the box downstairs?


There are several other important questions, but perhaps I'll bring up two related ones in respect of the alleged phone call which Jeremy says was made to his (Jeremy's) house by Neville in the middle of Sheila's rampage: firstly, why on Earth would Neville have called Jeremy rather than 999, given the murderous circumstances (and, for that matter, why would Jeremy himself not immediately have called 999 when he received this alleged call from his father?)?

And secondly, Jeremy claimed that his father was speaking to him and then "the line went dead". Now, since in this scenario the calling party was White House Farm, and the called party was Jeremy's house, only two things could in reality have happened from Jeremy's perspective: either 1) Jeremy heard some sort of scuffle/shots/etc, and then heard silence - but the line remained open; or 2) someone terminated the call at the White House Farm end (either by pulling out the phone line or by depressing the handset cradle), in which case the line would have been closed and Jeremy would have heard the dial tone. What he COULDN'T have heard was a "dead line". Furthermore (and very importantly), if the line hadn't been terminated at the White House Farm end (as in (2) above), and Jeremy hadn't therefore heard the dial tone, he wouldn't have been able to make an outgoing call himself for 10 minutes - in 1985, the exchange would only hand you back your line in this situation after 10 minutes had elapsed. So Jeremy would have been unable to call the local police station from his house at the time when he did make that call.



(FWIW, my own view is that Jeremy placed a call from White House Farm to his own house as the very last thing he did before leaving the murder scene - I doubt he knew whether or not call records would be kept (in the event, they were not kept in those days). I also suspect that Julie Mugford was much deeper into this than she ever admitted* - I suspect that she was sitting at his place ready to answer the phone when he called from the farm house, so that there was evidence of the call having been placed and answered. I think Jeremy probably hung up the phone at White House Farm after making this call - thereby freeing up the line at his own place - and then decided to "dress" the scene more dramatically by taking the phone back off the hook and leaving it dangling. He then cycled back as fast as he could to his own place, whereupon he sent Julie back to her place and called the local police station (not knowing that it was only his having initially replaced the handset at the farmhouse which had freed up his own line to make that call...))


* And of course when Mugford eventually went to the police, she would have known that she could easily protect herself against impeachment in this sort of way, since her only threat was of Jeremy telling police she was far more deeply implicated than she was pretending - and she knew that could never happen, because Jeremy would necessarily implicate himself totally if he did go down that route.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:41 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.