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Tags jeremy bamber , Julie Mugford , murder cases , Nevill Bamber , Sheila Bamber

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Old 8th June 2020, 02:22 PM   #521
Samson
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
I agree. Like you, I deplore what Bamber has done, but unless somebody is actually a present danger, it is wrong to keep somebody inside a close confinement prison for longer than is necessary, and do to so for their natural life is inhumane.

Personally I think it was wrong to abolish the death penalty; doing so has given us these dilemmas when dealing with the worst offenders. I think if you're going to keep somebody alive, then you have to accept that they will want to pursue some degree of rehabilitation and to deny this is degrading and shockingly cruel - in all cases. Even in the case of somebody like Ian Brady, my view would have been that if we don't have the moral fortitude to hang him, then we have to accept that he will one day either be released altogether or down-categorised to an open prison. Just keeping somebody locked up for no reason other than vengeance is stupid.

The history of whole life orders, and their precursors, whole life tariffs, is dubious. Some background:

Whole life tariffs came into being in 1988 as secret directives to parole boards and prisons, normally issued from ministerial level. They were not called 'whole life tariffs', as such, initially, but the understanding was that, barring a change in circumstances, the offender would be expected to serve a natural life term.

In Bamber's case, the tariff was issued in the late 1980s, very early in his sentence, by the then-Home Secretary, Douglas Hurd. This was done in total secrecy, even Bamber was not informed. The tariff would only have become significant to Bamber at around the 20 year point of his sentence, when he would be considered for a resettlement prison and would have found himself denied this re-categorisation without explanation.

What intervened was a legal challenge brought in the 1990s, I think by Myra Hindley, against her unofficial natural life term. She realised that when she completed her tariff in 1996, she would be denied progress through the system and figured out that she was being kept inside on purpose.

As a result of the Hindley case, natural life terms were upheld but the practice changed so that the Home Secretary (then in charge of the justice function) had to inform all prisoners subject to these 'secret'/unofficial natural life terms, which officially became whole life tariffs, and Bamber was notified in about 1994 by the then-Home Secretary, Michael Howard.

However, at this stage a whole life tariff was not unequivocally a natural life sentence. Bingham J. in the Hindley case made it clear that the Home Secretary's power was subject to a right of the prisoner to progress to release where it could be shown that exceptional progress was made.

The big regressive change came in 2002/2003, when the Blair government introduced whole life orders under the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The 2003 Act took away the system of discretionary whole life tariffs that had arisen with the Bingham judgment in Hindley.

There have been a series of legal challenges since, including involving by Bamber himself, that have chipped away at the 2003 regime, to the point now that all whole life orders must be reviewed during sentence.
When deploring what Bamber has done, it is essential to describe what he did. This begins at Goldhanger cottage, and describes his actions during that evening in detail. I consider I know exactly what he did, so I am particularly interested in your version, and the order of events.
The version presented by the crown is useless for this purpose, so it is your job to describe what you deplore.
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Old 8th June 2020, 02:57 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
Something else that's bothering me:

(i). Why would Nevill Bamber remove the silencer and scope from the rifle and leave these off? What purpose would he have for such a course of action?

(ii). Why would Jeremy, who admits to using the weapon, not re-attach the scope and silencer for his own legitimate purposes?

To believe Jeremy is innocent, I think there is an onus on his defenders to plausibly explain this odd behaviour.
The gun would not fit in its case with the silencer attached.

A witness at trial who is also farmer said he would sometimes shoot rabbits without scope and silencer on the rifle. So I guess its down to varying preference. I have never shot rabbits before, so cannot give a first hand account on it.
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Old 9th June 2020, 03:30 AM   #523
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Bamber loaded the rifle then went hunting.
Without finding a target rabbit he returned and left the rifle in the kitchen. Sheila was an experienced shooter and the loaded rifle became the means to shoot her mother after arguing with Neville downstairs. He had come down to check why there was noise in the small hours. The reason was that Sheila's period began and she was filling buckets to rinse her underwear.

Now

Let us have an intelligent discussion.
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Old 9th June 2020, 12:45 PM   #524
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06.09 999 call

I'd like to know what the pro-guilt stance is regarding the alleged 06.09 am. 999 call from WHF. Is it valid, or is it nonsense?

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Old 19th June 2020, 03:41 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by TomG View Post
I'd like to know what the pro-guilt stance is regarding the alleged 06.09 am. 999 call from WHF. Is it valid, or is it nonsense?

Hoots
Its nonsense. That's the pro-innocence stance also.
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Old 19th June 2020, 08:54 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
Its nonsense. That's the pro-innocence stance also.
Why is it nonsense? Are you saying that no such call took place?

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Old 25th June 2020, 08:25 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by TomG View Post
Why is it nonsense? Are you saying that no such call took place?

Hoots
The telephone operator was listening in via the kitchen telephone that was left off the hook. At 6:09am the operator connected the phone to a police station via the 999 system so the police could listen in also.

Some halfwit in JBs campaign team thought this was Sheila dialing 999 for an ambulance.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:07 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
The telephone operator was listening in via the kitchen telephone that was left off the hook. At 6:09am the operator connected the phone to a police station via the 999 system so the police could listen in also.

Some halfwit in JBs campaign team thought this was Sheila dialing 999 for an ambulance.
This is a problem when activists look like a rabble.
There is a misconception applying to these cases by calling them complex.
They are not, they are all very simple.
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:15 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So I hear Bamber has had his most recent appeal dismissed. Any thoughts?
What I recall reading was that Jeremy's application for Judicial Review of a decision under the Official Info Act (as we call it here) was denied on the basis that it was something the CCRC was equipped to resolve.
So clearly he his moving on with his application with the knowledge that the Court has indicated that the CCRC will ensure he gets the information he sought.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:58 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is a problem when activists look like a rabble.
There is a misconception applying to these cases by calling them complex.
They are not, they are all very simple.
Doesn't that mean that someone has got to call 999 first?

Hoots
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Old 4th March 2021, 02:17 PM   #531
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’Former cop aims to help free Jeremy Bamber’ - 17th Feb 2021

Excerpts:
“Former policeman Stuart Bower, from Hove, has been writing to the convicted killer since 2007 and believes Bamber has evidence which may exonerate him.

“In 1985, I was put in prison for a crime I didn’t commit,” said former West Yorkshire policeman Mr Bower.

“It took me nine years to clear my name in an uncontested appeal in 1994.”

Mr Bower was convicted of arson on a boat he owned jointly with his father-in-law.

He spent six months in custody and was awarded £475,000 in damages as a result.

“What happened to me is why I have put myself forward on more than one occasion to assist other people who have been victims of miscarriages of justice,” he said.

“Mr Bower said: “There was a documentary and one of the sergeants who attended the scene and was joined there by Jeremy Bamber said they saw somebody moving in the upstairs windows – they withdrew back and hid behind a hedge waiting for the firearms unit to arrive.

“This sergeant said that it was an optical illusion caused by moonshine on the window – which is what caused me to write to the science museum, directed to the Royal Observatory Edinburgh, who confirmed the moon wasn’t shining that night.

“To be exact, it was in its last quarter which means it was nothing more than a silver sickle in the sky.”

Mr Bower continues to write to and receive letters from Bamber.

Stuart Bower has been writing letters to Bamber since 2007

He has also written to Hove and Portslade MP Peter Kyle, urging him to get involved in the case.

He wrote: “If Jeremy Bamber was to write to you himself, would you be willing to take up the cudgels on his behalf, and refer this to the Home Secretary and demand that a copy of the audio message of the three nines call is handed over to his defence team?”

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1909...mpression=true

Sheila was walking around, saw the cops outside, realised there was no way out, and lay down and made a mess of shooting herself. The second shot succeeded. How the British people can let this outrage against Jeremy Bamber persist is incomprehensible to me.

Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
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Old 5th March 2021, 01:19 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Sheila was walking around, saw the cops outside, realised there was no way out, and lay down and made a mess of shooting herself. The second shot succeeded. How the British people can let this outrage against Jeremy Bamber persist is incomprehensible to me.

Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
Because they are insufficiently gullible to be fooled by the lying psychopath's antics?
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Old 5th March 2021, 01:28 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Because they are insufficiently gullible to be fooled by the lying psychopath's antics?
It is because the CJ system wants convictions, it is not an academic, open, unbiased search for the truth.
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Old 5th March 2021, 01:31 AM   #534
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It seems a very serious question.
Why did the police hide behind a hedge?
There was no moonlight to create the illusion.
However they knew there were guns in the house and they did think they saw someone moving upstairs.
Bamber was nearby and is alleged to have killed everyone in the house by this time.
Sheila was found shot upstairs with two bullets that accorded with suicide trajectories though the first shot was misaligned resulting in a non fatal wound that missed her brain.
The body was discovered with uncoagulated blood flowing from these wounds despite this being several hours beyond the time Bamber could have inflicted them.
There is no reason to not answer the above points in detail if your theory is correct.
It would be rewarding to see more people have a go at this case as it may well be the greatest MOJ in modern British history.

Last edited by Samson; 5th March 2021 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 5th March 2021, 02:42 AM   #535
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If Jeremy Bamber had taken legal advice and come clean right from the start, he could be out on parole by now, with a new identity and leading a new life, perhaps with a family of his own. But no, this callous reprobate insists Sheila did it because he is hellbent on claiming his 'inheritance': the reason he killed his kind loving family who adopted him, in the first place. He killed for money and by Jove he is going to keep banging on about the 'land that belongs to me', when of course, if you murder the beneficient, you forfeit any claim as an heir.

Instead of sitting in his cell counting the pennies up in his head, he might do well to reflect on the consequences of his actions and weigh up whether material wealth is worth more than a happy, albeit humble, life.
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Old 5th March 2021, 03:35 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If Jeremy Bamber had taken legal advice and come clean right from the start, he could be out on parole by now, with a new identity and leading a new life, perhaps with a family of his own. But no, this callous reprobate insists Sheila did it because he is hellbent on claiming his 'inheritance': the reason he killed his kind loving family who adopted him, in the first place. He killed for money and by Jove he is going to keep banging on about the 'land that belongs to me', when of course, if you murder the beneficient, you forfeit any claim as an heir.

Instead of sitting in his cell counting the pennies up in his head, he might do well to reflect on the consequences of his actions and weigh up whether material wealth is worth more than a happy, albeit humble, life.
If you follow the money you would never speak so.
Bamber would become a loathed lessor to the Family, but that is not his fault.
Anne Eaton is still a ghostly Dickensian beneficiary of ill gotten gains.
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:43 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It seems a very serious question.
Why did the police hide behind a hedge?
There was no moonlight to create the illusion.
However they knew there were guns in the house and they did think they saw someone moving upstairs.
Bamber was nearby and is alleged to have killed everyone in the house by this time.
Sheila was found shot upstairs with two bullets that accorded with suicide trajectories though the first shot was misaligned resulting in a non fatal wound that missed her brain.
The body was discovered with uncoagulated blood flowing from these wounds despite this being several hours beyond the time Bamber could have inflicted them.
There is no reason to not answer the above points in detail if your theory is correct.
It would be rewarding to see more people have a go at this case as it may well be the greatest MOJ in modern British history.
There was a full moon that night. Just saying
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:45 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
There was a full moon that night. Just saying
So who was lying about the moon? Stuart Bower? Or did the Royal Observatory get it wrong?
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Old 5th March 2021, 09:14 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
So who was lying about the moon? Stuart Bower? Or did the Royal Observatory get it wrong?
Take a look at Bower and I believe the answer is obvious.
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Old 5th March 2021, 09:43 AM   #540
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How about demonstrating that the moon was full, instead of just asserting it? (To be fair, I'd ask the same of Bower if he was here, but he's not.)
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Old 5th March 2021, 12:28 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
How about demonstrating that the moon was full, instead of just asserting it? (To be fair, I'd ask the same of Bower if he was here, but he's not.)
Facts? How quaint...
The moon was, on 06-07AUG1985 waning gibbous, around a week after the full moon.
That said I wouldn't trust Bowers to get the colour of the sky right.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 5th March 2021, 02:49 PM   #542
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https://www.moonpage.com/index.html?...=4&min=0&sec=0

Looks like it. So Samson, why do you think Bower got this so wrong?
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Old 5th March 2021, 09:50 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
https://www.moonpage.com/index.html?...=4&min=0&sec=0

Looks like it. So Samson, why do you think Bower got this so wrong?
I have no idea.
Grown coppers scuttling behind a hedge for a full moon trick o the light?
Or maybe a person moving in the window known to be armed.
I weep at the idiocy paraded in this case.
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Old 5th March 2021, 10:34 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I have no idea.
Grown coppers scuttling behind a hedge for a full moon trick o the light?
Or maybe a person moving in the window known to be armed.
I weep at the idiocy paraded in this case.
Indeed. Throughout this entire thread.
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Old 5th March 2021, 10:37 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Indeed. Throughout this entire thread.
The thread is to discuss the case.
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Old 6th March 2021, 03:58 AM   #546
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According to PC Bews pocketbook/ws. As they approached the house, Jeremy mentioned that the labrador was outside barking and that Nevil would usually come outside to see why the dog was alerting him. Since nobody came out they realized they could be in danger. Hence they took cover.

As for what Myall and Bews saw in the window, it could well have been Sheila or it may not have been. Speculation wont establish anything one way or another.
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Old 6th March 2021, 07:58 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
According to PC Bews pocketbook/ws. As they approached the house, Jeremy mentioned that the labrador was outside barking and that Nevil would usually come outside to see why the dog was alerting him. Since nobody came out they realized they could be in danger. Hence they took cover.

As for what Myall and Bews saw in the window, it could well have been Sheila or it may not have been. Speculation wont establish anything one way or another.
It could well have been Sheila.... not according to the thieving inheritors.
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Old 7th March 2021, 04:07 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The thread is to discuss the case.
'Discussion' suggests reasoned argument, no merely blindly claiming that Bamber is innocent.
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Old 7th March 2021, 04:08 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It could well have been Sheila.... not according to the thieving inheritors.
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Old 7th March 2021, 02:15 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Corollary:
If Sheila was alive, the relatives helped plant evidence to show someone else killed her.
There was no ability for the cops alone to scratch the mantle piece.
If they planted evidence they stole his inheritance.
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Old 12th March 2021, 04:56 AM   #551
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New application to CCRC: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...lenge-launched
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Old 12th March 2021, 05:51 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
He should be released and the relatives charged convicted and jailed.
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Old 13th March 2021, 06:46 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
He should be released and the relatives charged convicted and jailed.
I agree
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Old 15th March 2021, 12:18 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
What terrific news. I am immediately reminded of reading Professor Knight's (?) work on around the bullet entry wounds to Sheila, the scratch said to have come from the arc of a rifle being swung overhead leaving a mark from the edge of the lintel above the stove that was impossible to have happened in the manner described, and lastly the reconstruction of what happened on the stairs by Mike G which actually revealed that Neville had been turned away by gunfire on the stairs.
I look forward to the CCRC's report and expect from what little information there is above, including the 2 phone calls, the trace of the barrel/silencer blood and movement inside the house when all were meant to be dead that indicates that the prosecution is in deep, deep, trouble.
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Old 15th March 2021, 03:24 AM   #555
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There is a crime scene photograph of the virgin underside of the mantelpiece.

Therefore someone scratched the mantlepiece after the crime to demonstrate a struggle with a rifle between Neville and Jeremy.

There was no struggle. Sheila shot Neville as he descended the stair case and shot him again when he collapsed in the coal scuttle.

Last edited by Samson; 15th March 2021 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 15th March 2021, 05:44 AM   #556
Samson
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Sheila shot Neville twice in the mouth as he ascended the stairs as he heard Sheila shooting his wife.
He turned.
June was not killed and dragged herself towards the door. AfterSheila emptied the cartridge downstairs on Neville she reloaded, returned upstairs and completed killing June, her adoptive mother.
Then she killed her children.
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Old 15th March 2021, 05:55 AM   #557
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Sheila was not about to have her children removed to alternative care as Neville and her religious adoptive mother determined necessary.
She found her period beginning and descended the stairs, made a noise with buckets in the kitchen immersing her bloodied underwear.
Neville was awokened as the defending patriarch of the remote farm.
The dispute about custody resumed and Sheila took hold of the rifle Jeremy loaded to shoot rabbits to no avail.
He had tragically left it so Sheila could run rampant with 10 bullets in the semi auto 22.
She killed them all as described above.
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Old 15th March 2021, 06:20 AM   #558
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Some day I hope this forum will engage seekers of solutions to the gravest of injustices to study this case and help a completely innocent man confront the disgusting edict of a home secretary who could decide Jeremy Bamber must die in jail without simultaneously telling his prisoner.

Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
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Old 15th March 2021, 10:30 AM   #559
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The amount of evidence withheld in the original trial and to Bamber's defence team is incredible.
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Old 16th March 2021, 03:05 AM   #560
Samson
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The amount of evidence withheld in the original trial and to Bamber's defence team is incredible.
It is the simplest case on this sub forum.
DC Jones fell off a ladder and died.
But before this he said Sheila Caffel killed her parents then her children then herself.
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