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22nd September 2015, 12:44 PM | #81 |
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22nd September 2015, 12:45 PM | #82 |
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Such as blood or powder or gun oil from his hands on the handlebars, brakes, gear shifters, etc.
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22nd September 2015, 12:57 PM | #83 |
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22nd September 2015, 01:01 PM | #84 |
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Back to your theory, AL.....
What's in it for Bamber? Well, all I can come up with is that either he let something slip inadvertently, or, it was her idea in the first place. |
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22nd September 2015, 01:12 PM | #85 |
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Well, who knows. The cops did not look at the bike for weeks. Bamber (if guilty) got very lucky that DCI Taff Jones was in charge. His juniors were very suspicious of Bamber but were held in check. If Bamber had got the Scott Peterson treatment it might have been a different story.
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22nd September 2015, 01:14 PM | #86 |
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22nd September 2015, 01:15 PM | #87 |
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22nd September 2015, 01:16 PM | #88 |
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22nd September 2015, 01:50 PM | #89 |
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You believe he is guilty but are not 100%. I am guessing you are something like 60/40 towards guilt from previous statements. I believe he is innocent and would likely put it 75% /25% towards innocence. Neither of us thinks the other is nuts however.
While I believe that police interviews can often produce bad results, I believe that physical evidence is far more reliable. In this case, I think the physical evidence could have put the case to bed no matter if he was innocent or guilty. I do have a question for you however. Do you know any similar cases to what Jeremy has been convicted of? Complex murder plots such as what is suggested seem to be incredibly rare in actuality although the fodder for murder novels. I listened to an interview with a defense lawyer who stated she got two types of clients, the innocent and the dumb ones. Never seems to get the mastermind. Murder / suicides are not all that uncommon common however. I believe I remember even reading a case of a wrongful conviction with regards to a murder-suicide case. |
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22nd September 2015, 02:04 PM | #90 |
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No, we aren't nuts. I'm about 72.9 / 27.1 (does that add up to 100 )
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Face it, DF, unusual cases do happen. Statistics won't solve this one. |
22nd September 2015, 02:06 PM | #91 |
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The phone thing troubles me. Why go to all the trouble? Wouldn't it have been so much simpler for JB to just stay out of the way until the bodies were found, and to make sure he had a good alibi (I can see why Julie Mugford might have been indispensable for that)? Why add in unnecessary complication? Phone calls set times, and all he needed to do at the crime scene would be to shoot a clock if he wanted the time of the killings to be known afterwards. What JB did with his alleged strategy, if guilty, was simply build in evidence which could be used against him.
- Does the use of a silencer leave a trace for ballistics to find afterwards? Has this been looked at? Do the bullet cases still exist? - There is an ongoing campaign for a freedom of information request for all the Essex police files on the case to be made public. That could really set the cat amongst the proverbials. |
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22nd September 2015, 02:19 PM | #92 |
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The phone thing is brilliant, really. It's central to the plan. It gives him an alibi and sets a very persuasive misdirection in motion. It's so clever it's close to driving me to think he must be innocent.
Quote:
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22nd September 2015, 02:27 PM | #93 |
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In each case, they involve a single victim (Let us not play games with Lacy being pregnant) and what are relatively stupid plots. If Scott had gone further into the bay into deep water, her body would have never been found. Jodi Arias I would also argue was pretty stupid.
I think that police find strange and unusual crimes far more often than they actually occur. In fact, I would argue that if the cops argue for a complex plot, you are better off just simply betting that they are wrong. I do not have an exact layout of the house however the descriptions that I have been reading give me at least some idea. Whenever I picture myself in Jeremy's position and trying to kill everybody, I run into these roadblocks. I can however see plausible ways that Shelia could have done it, I can see how it might have escalated especially if the family was trying to calm her down for a while. In addition, I have trouble seeing how Jeremy could have gotten Shelia to stay still for posing her as a suicide. |
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22nd September 2015, 02:34 PM | #94 |
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I have the same problem seeing how she shot herself twice but one or the other surely happened.
I am staggered by the audacity of all the premed perps TBH. I am as likely to win a gold medal on the pommel horse as I am to conceive, carry out and then cover up such a madcap scheme but facts are facts. People do these things. |
22nd September 2015, 02:40 PM | #95 |
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Here is a quote which in my mind should be enough to free Bamber. Therefore, I am not sure what I am missing:
Quote:
Now, OK, this is from the Daily Fail, but it is a direct quote, and they have been campaigning on this case for years. |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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22nd September 2015, 02:47 PM | #96 |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide
Multiple gunshot suicides are rare, but possible. In one study of 138 gunshot suicides, 5 (3.6%) involved two shots to the head, the first of which missed the brain.[1] A suicide with 4 gunshots to the head has been reported.[2] Do not forget that a .22 is about the lightest firearm there is and a .22 subsonic has an even lower powder load than a standard .22 round. |
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22nd September 2015, 03:39 PM | #97 |
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From one of the comments
Many old timers in Maldon said that the Police stood outside while she was still inside and they heard her shoot herself. Why did they fit him up?! Of course they didn't fit him up right then. One of the articles I have read says how impatient the main detective was with suggestions Bamber did it, but unfortunately he fell off a ladder and died while the case was in progress, IIRC |
23rd September 2015, 12:32 AM | #98 |
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I think this is one of the myths in this case.
Bamber called a PC West at Chelsmford police station and this individual recorded the time of the call as 3.36, a time he later corrected to 3.26. He called Malcolm Bonnet a civilian with responsibility for setting something or other in motion - despatch cars and firearms people perhaps. There are thus two notes, one for the call Bamber to West and another for the contemporaneous call West to Bonnet. 'Contemporaneous' because West was passing on info to Bonnet as Bamber was supplying it to him, with Bamber impatiently hanging on and wondering why everything was taking so long - in contrast to the 26 minutes he allowed to pass between Nevill's call at 3.00 a.m. (per Bamber himself) and his call to Chelmsford (see my post yesterday on how Bamber managed this highly suspicious gap). Bonnet's note is therefore a record of what Bamber was telling West but it reads as though it is setting down first person statements made by Nevill. However, it also correctly records PC West's number - PC 1990 - and both Bonnet and West agree there was no such call made to either of them. What if they are lying, though? Now, this is the problem for this particular conspiracy theory - for at least a month after the crime the prevailing view among the police, adamantly maintained by the senior investigator, DCI Taff Jones, was that this was a murder-suicide. Had a call been made by Nevill to the police that would have decisively resolved the issue in his favour. It follows that the call cannot have come to light at any point, that Bonnet himself must have entirely forgotten about it when reading all the controversy in the press, that it was somehow or other suppressed for absolutely no reason for the first month and then for a nefarious one ever after. Bonnet, an ordinary police civilian must be a liar in a mystery cause for some unseen reason. Is he living in luxury in the Cayman Islands, or running a wholly-owned pub on the Costa Brava or is he just the same humble mortal he was before and after this call? You decide. And furthermore, if Nevill was speaking to Bonnet at the same time Bamber was speaking to West (with West speaking to Bonnet) wouldn't West have let on to Bamber that the police had already received a call from the farm and were on their way? Wouldn't Bonnet have told West 'hang on, the dad's just come on the phone and he's saying she's gone nuts with a rifle. Tell the boy to head over there, I'll organise a squad car and they will meet him there.'? And we now have Nevill also calling a number that was not 999. How did he know Bonnet's number? Bonnet was not at Chelmsford nick. Did he just by coincidence manage to get through to the same guy that West was already speaking to? And we also now have a gap of 36 minutes between Nevill's call to Bamber and Nevill's call to Bonnet. 36 minutes? I don't believe it. |
23rd September 2015, 12:36 AM | #99 |
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23rd September 2015, 01:06 AM | #100 |
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Trying to stay awake at 4 am here. . . . .These were paper logs and this was in 1986. You are expecting an exactness that likely does not exist. Even now with a paper log, expect some of those times to be approximate especially if they forgot to put the times in initially.
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23rd September 2015, 01:11 AM | #101 |
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23rd September 2015, 01:27 AM | #102 |
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Well, those making these logs will have been trained to be accurate about time since time is critical. They also jotted down precise times, not rounded ones (3.26, 3.36). PC West muddied the waters by writing down 3.36 and later corrected himself to 3.26 claiming to have misread a digital clock. I can offer a detailed post on the telephone call timings later but these times stand up reasonably well IMO. They need to be integrated with the evidence we have Nevill's putative call to Bamber and Bamber's verified call to Julie. That will have to wait a bit because I have work to do, darn it.
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23rd September 2015, 01:29 AM | #103 |
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23rd September 2015, 02:01 AM | #104 |
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I know, from personal experience, that time critical logs may very well not be quite as accurate as they should be. Some of those times may very well be inserted after the fact.
I have to be blunt here though, assuming they are more or less accurate, I am not really getting your argument. Can you maybe simplify what you are arguing? |
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23rd September 2015, 02:05 AM | #105 |
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My bigger point is that he somehow needs to get her semi-cooperation in this staging of a suicide after he had murdered their father and mother. The staged suicides that are more plausible are not also combined with murders. Many of those I am still pretty nervous that the courts got them wrong.
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23rd September 2015, 02:09 AM | #106 |
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David Bain did 15 years for appearing to have staged his father's suicide as the culmination of a quintuple homicide. In fact it was a quadruple homicide suicide, now hang on, what do we have here? Even The Atheist sees the parallels, but we disagree on who was firing the gun in the Bain case. (Robin Bain did it, murder suicide).
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23rd September 2015, 02:25 AM | #107 |
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23rd September 2015, 02:31 AM | #108 |
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Being that multi-shot (to the head) suicides happen and are documented, I am not sure what the real issue is. Didn't even the prosecution medical examiner state that she would still be mobile after the first shot even though it would have been ultimately fatal. Not sure why it even matters because suicide or homicide, that would still be the case.
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23rd September 2015, 02:53 AM | #109 |
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And I pointed out that washing is unlikely in the extreme, wouldn't have removed traces on Sheila's clothes, wouldn't necessarily have removed all the powder residue and wouldn't have effected the residue from the final two shots at all.
Sheila's hands and feet were bagged before the body was moved. I suggest you look at the statements and logs. But I can say that the lack of detectable residue is inconsistent with Sheila going on a murderous rampage before killing herself. Just like the other evidence. But it would have itself left residue, which wasn't found. Your speculation about comparisons between the .22 rifle Berber used and your handguns simply isn't relevant. You seem utterly determined to maintain that no powder residue would be left on Sheila. Of course even if this were so it wouldn't explain the blood, lack of fingerprint, removal of the silencer et cetera.... And, again, this would be before the final two shots. Your delving into your psychological opinions doesn't carry any credibility. I can't see her bring that motivated to do so. Now that is interesting. Utterly speculative but interesting. And rather more plausible than the police and Bamber cousins conspiracy nonsense. Agreed. Yeah the use of the station number is curious. I can see her betraying Bamber (assuming she was a co-conspirator) Though if she was involved, what did she have to gain, other than the press payoff? I can't see a threat to her by Bamber as being particularly weighty; it'd require him to end any hope of avoiding conviction. Again, speculative and basically impossible to prove but interesting nonetheless. |
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23rd September 2015, 03:09 AM | #110 |
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It is speculative, of course, Catsmate. As to what she had to gain - freedom for the rest of her life is my answer. From her POV, at any time the police could pounce and uncover the truth. How would things look then? She had helped burgle Osea Road, she had gone through the charade of the phone call, backed Bamber up when giving her statement on the 8th, acted her part at the funeral. If the police chanced to get evidence that meant they didn't need her then she was in deep, deep trouble. By coming forward herself she nipped all that in the bud. She could not know that Bamber would not take her with him. You discount that possibility far too readily IMO. She did not lie for News of the World money but told a version of the truth to save her own neck.
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23rd September 2015, 03:40 AM | #111 |
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I quoted previously a modern forensic education resource which indicates that GSR can be undetectable in 1 to 3 hours. Depending on if you think she took her life around 3 or 5 or around 8, you still have hours before the body was bagged. I believe I read around 10 am or 11 am.
Same problem with testing the hand for lead. Did they test the hands five hours after having reloading the magazine. |
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23rd September 2015, 04:18 AM | #112 |
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This case gets more intriguing. Let us agree that it is a ridiculous notion that there can be gods eye ambiguity. One thing happened.
I am wondering , logically, forensically and psychologically, if Mugford could genuinely believe Bamber did it, when in fact he is innocent. |
23rd September 2015, 04:53 AM | #114 |
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23rd September 2015, 04:55 AM | #115 |
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23rd September 2015, 07:54 AM | #116 |
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A few general points about the case.
1. If Sheila had carried out the murders, and then committed suicide, why was there no damage to her manicured nails. Especially given the need for her to reload the magazine at least twice, cramming in cartridges. 2. Sheila's hand and nightdress were free of powder residue, gun oil, lubricant or lead. Despite supposedly firing the rifle 25 times in a short period and reloading it at least twice. 3. Sheila's feet and slippers were clean and free of blood, glass particles or other soiling. From this she was never in the downstairs kitchen where her father was murdered where a glass lampshade was smashed, leaving glass fragments all over the floor. 4. The silencer had traces of blood in it (blowback from the close contact shots). This was typed as ABO type A and later subjected to DNA analysis showing a very close match (17/20 markers) to Sheila. That's the silencer that wasn't attacked to the rifle and had been put away. 5. Sheila was on haloperidol to treat her schizophrenia but had run out of the procyclidine she took to counteracts the effects of the haloperidol. This she would have been shaky and uncoordinated on the night of the murders, as indeed she was described by various witnesses. Despite this she supposedly carried out four murders, severely beat her father and reloaded the rifle twice. 6. The murder weapon had only one partial example of Sheila's fingerprints, and none on the trigger despite the supposed suicide. 7. No-one had ever testified that Sheila had ever handled the rifle, or any firearm, yet she supposedly handled it skillfully that night. 8. Despite the disparity in size and build between Neill and Sheila her body showed no marks or injuries from a fight. 9. No blood was found in Sheila's throat or mouth, indicating she wasn't long conscious after the first shot, nor was there the dispersed blood that would be expected from someone struggling to breathed. There was no blood staining to her face or neck when the police initially found her, nor any on the inside of her hands or on her fingertips. 10. The location of Sheila's body, in the master bedroom, is psychologically odd for a maternal suicide, it would be expected that she'd kill herself close to, or beside, her children. 11. Sheila had no motivation to kill her family. She was actually described as being in good spirits. 12. Both her psychiatrist and husband stated that she was not capable of hurting her father or her children. |
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23rd September 2015, 08:13 AM | #117 |
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23rd September 2015, 10:55 AM | #118 |
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My understanding is that he has generally shown himself to be a reasonable inmate (cannot blame any inmate for trying to fight to get out). In fact, his activity reminds me of Jason Baldwin of the WM3. No psychological evaluation has shown any evidence of being a sociopath / psychopath either.
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23rd September 2015, 11:38 AM | #119 |
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Does anyone attach any weight to decades long protestations of innocence?
I do, to an extent. Our system apparently requires an acceptance of guilt as part of parole, and therefore refusing to accept your guilt leads necessarily to additional time in prison. (This is a problem which needs reviewing, but I have no suggestions.) Before Michael Howard extended Bamber's tariff to whole-life, he was serving life sentences with a tariff of 25 years. This meant that he would have been eligible to apply for parole after 25 years (4 years ago). However, protesting his innocence throughout that period removed his parole chances. I understand that now he has a whole-life tariff his campaign is just something he does without any cost to himself, but previously, it did have a cost (the loss of possible parole). Obviously that cost has to be weighed against the potential benefit of being found innocent and released early.....but nonetheless, there was a cost to Bamber in continuing to protest his innocence. I don't follow these things closely. Are there many cases of people protesting their innocence and thus losing the right to parole who were actually guilty all along? There are many tragic cases of the innocent who protested for years and stayed in prison way longer than they otherwise would, but is there much history of the converse? |
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23rd September 2015, 11:51 AM | #120 |
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